The Ignorance of the Democrats and Left

UncleMark

Hall of Famer
Sep 1, 2001
18,377
15,406
113
I asked a question on another thread which you knew was coming and then you posted a new thread you’ve been thinking about starting. That’s what it looks like to me.
I didn’t give much thought to the title. I don’t fall for stupid crap like that for the most part. Whether believing it or getting upset by it.
You're catching on.
 

CO. Hoosier

Hall of Famer
Aug 29, 2001
35,478
6,382
113
Come on. Trump bungled it. You can sit here and talk about which of the errors are and aren’t directly related to him all you want.
He hasn’t helped a damn thing...only caused further harm.
He knows his goose is cooked too. That’s why he’s trying to normalize stealing an election. Are you going to keep arguing for him when he does that too?
I'd agree that some things were mistakes. All the money wasted on hospital ships, emergency hospital rooms, and the crash programs to produce ventilators are examples. Not only were those not needed, those measures helped feed mass hysteria.

There were shortages and distribution problems with PPE. The odd thing is that what the democrats suggested as a fix was already being done. Many criticize Trump for not "leading". Not sure what that means, but if that means arm twisting of governors who were conspicuous part of the RESISTANCE! I think an assertive Trump would have been counterproductive. FWIW, Colorado's strong left-wing governor made good decisions and worked well with Trump and his administration. I'm not sure if Governor Polis would think he was or wasn't' "led" but that really makes no difference to me.

I wish Trump would not have commented on so much stuff that didn't matter and should have been left to others. Hydroxychloroquine is a perfect example. That quickly turned into a stupid political football and withholding it might have cost some lives. His remarks about disinfectant and ultra-violet lights are similar as was his early optimism about beating it back. I don't consider any of that a leadership issue because it was him just yapping and a predictable press and democratic pounce blowing everything out of proportion. But if you choose to consider those kinds of things game changing failures, be my guest.
 

glmiu11

Junior
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2014
1,826
923
113
I'd agree that some things were mistakes. All the money wasted on hospital ships, emergency hospital rooms, and the crash programs to produce ventilators are examples. Not only were those not needed, those measures helped feed mass hysteria.

There were shortages and distribution problems with PPE. The odd thing is that what the democrats suggested as a fix was already being done. Many criticize Trump for not "leading". Not sure what that means, but if that means arm twisting of governors who were conspicuous part of the RESISTANCE! I think an assertive Trump would have been counterproductive. FWIW, Colorado's strong left-wing governor made good decisions and worked well with Trump and his administration. I'm not sure if Governor Polis would think he was or wasn't' "led" but that really makes no difference to me.

I wish Trump would not have commented on so much stuff that didn't matter and should have been left to others. Hydroxychloroquine is a perfect example. That quickly turned into a stupid political football and withholding it might have cost some lives. His remarks about disinfectant and ultra-violet lights are similar as was his early optimism about beating it back. I don't consider any of that a leadership issue because it was him just yapping and a predictable press and democratic pounce blowing everything out of proportion. But if you choose to consider those kinds of things game changing failures, be my guest.
Sorry man; you’re not gonna wanna hear this. Obama would’ve contained it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrHoops

CO. Hoosier

Hall of Famer
Aug 29, 2001
35,478
6,382
113
Sorry man; you’re not gonna wanna hear this. Obama would’ve contained it.
LOL. Obama said that his nomination "was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal." How'd that work out?
 

bawlmer

All-American
Gold Member
Dec 12, 2010
5,080
3,351
113
Sorry man; you’re not gonna wanna hear this. Obama would’ve contained it.
His Administration literally wrote the book for containment. Of course, that was ignored by the current crowd.
 

bawlmer

All-American
Gold Member
Dec 12, 2010
5,080
3,351
113
No question testing was FUBARED early. I've commented on that often. A couple of things though. I don't think anything Trump did, or didn't do, caused that. Second, as things turned out, I don't think it made much difference.

Contact tracing, as I recall, is in place. But it quickly became overwhelmed.
The failure to develop usable tests for over a month crippled our response. During that time, the President was spouting nonsense about having all the testing we needed.

Was it his job to make the tests work? No.

Was it his job to know whether the tests worked and if we had enough, given the potential disaster? That's a choice he had to make at the time. Unfortunately, neither he nor anyone else in his Administration took responsibility for weeks. Like it or not, the guy at the top gets the responsibility. Especially given that it cost any chance to avoid the disastrous spread or the economic disaster of the lockdown.

That's not even mentioning his LIBERATE tweets despite the phased reopening plan developed by his own White House, We can blame our clunky recovery on that Presidential ham-handedness.
 

Marvin the Martian

Hall of Famer
Sep 4, 2001
27,441
10,487
113
Just like the ACA. And Common Core.
I am quite willing to accept the Democrats have blame in our government's inability to work with each other. But CO makes it sounds like RESIST is new and horrible. As Cap and Trade, ACA, and Common Core explain it is not something invented because of Trump. The hashtag may be new, but the sentiment has been wielded by and against Democrats pre-Trump.
 

cosmickid

All-American
Oct 23, 2009
8,076
3,988
113
There you go again. Talking about people instead of ideas. Take NATO. Germany has been reunified for 30 years, yet no administration has thought about moving the trip wire from the old West Germany. Trump moving troops east from Germany to Poland and into the Baltic states is the kind of idea I'm talking about. Biden probably couldn't find the Baltics on a map.
"Biden probably couldn't find the Baltics on a map."

We know you're not a total moron, so why even make such a ridiculous statement? Because you're mad when folks say it about Trump, where it definitely has the ring of truth?

Biden was a Professor at Penn, part of the Penn-Biden Ctr for Diplomacy and Global Engagement, and a participant in numerous CFR symposiums (some discussing articles he authored) subsequent to his term as VP. Here's an example of exactly what I mean, where the discussion centers around a study Biden co-authored.


By contrast, the only thing Trump likely knows about the Baltic States is that it is a prime source for degenerate businessmen to procure "blushing brides". Trump knows EVERYTHING about that. But not much else...

 
  • Like
Reactions: UncleMark

Harry Hondo

All-Big Ten
Gold Member
Nov 24, 2015
3,127
2,717
113
No question testing was FUBARED early. I've commented on that often. A couple of things though. I don't think anything Trump did, or didn't do, caused that. Second, as things turned out, I don't think it made much difference.

Contact tracing, as I recall, is in place. But it quickly became overwhelmed.
Certainly, early on there were huge errors with the way this was handled, including the CDC. Even if we got it right early, it was going to be really hard work to make it work, including a coordinated standardized effort that required real leadership from the federal government and President. In my eyes, I see Trump as being too lazy to take on the effort and would rather look for unproven "miracle cures" to get him off the hook to be the strong leader we needed.

Oh, and contact tracing needed to be in place in February, when the cases were in the singe digits. Again, that error might fall on the CDC and the task force for not mandating that needs to be the route we need to take. But in the end, Trump has never shown leadership or even a willingness to work hard at it.
 

outside shooter

Hall of Famer
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2001
17,612
4,571
113
Contact tracing, as I recall, is in place. But it quickly became overwhelmed.
Contact tracing has never been in place in the USA, with maybe a few isolated exceptions, like midtown Manhattan.

There was a study I read, many weeks ago, that concluded that among postive cases in the USA, when a infected person was assigned one or more contact tracers, and when that infected person was able to generate a list of people who might have been exposed to him or her while likely contagious, only 16% of the people that were identified, on average, ever got word of the possible exposure.

16% is about one out of six, as a math sidebar.

Amerians being what they are, I also seem to recall that the success rate of even getting that one in six people to self-isolate was low. Certainly less than 50-50.

Each of many variables has likely cost tens of thousands of American lives. Mask wearing percentage, contact tracing efffectiveness, testing turnaround time, percentage complying with a "shutdown", extent of misinformation provided by politicians, polititization of a pandemic response, lack of clear support for scientific guidance.

The body count has been enormous, and needlessly so.

It is what it is, but it didn't have to be what it is.
That is not a hindsight analysis, either. Many glaring issues were ignored in February, March, April, May, June, July, and are still being ignored. Issues that so many countries paid attention to in February because they made scientific sense and those countries valued following the scientific knowledge base, which indeed evolves over time.

The current USA body count is officially ~174K. Based on yearly comparison deaths, we can estimate a substantial undercount and perhaps it is more like ~250K. It might be much more had standard-of-care not been advanced to include things like steroids and blood thinners.
 

INRanger27

All-American
Jan 11, 2005
7,317
6,730
113
I'd agree that some things were mistakes. All the money wasted on hospital ships, emergency hospital rooms, and the crash programs to produce ventilators are examples. Not only were those not needed, those measures helped feed mass hysteria.

There were shortages and distribution problems with PPE. The odd thing is that what the democrats suggested as a fix was already being done. Many criticize Trump for not "leading". Not sure what that means, but if that means arm twisting of governors who were conspicuous part of the RESISTANCE! I think an assertive Trump would have been counterproductive. FWIW, Colorado's strong left-wing governor made good decisions and worked well with Trump and his administration. I'm not sure if Governor Polis would think he was or wasn't' "led" but that really makes no difference to me.

I wish Trump would not have commented on so much stuff that didn't matter and should have been left to others. Hydroxychloroquine is a perfect example. That quickly turned into a stupid political football and withholding it might have cost some lives. His remarks about disinfectant and ultra-violet lights are similar as was his early optimism about beating it back. I don't consider any of that a leadership issue because it was him just yapping and a predictable press and democratic pounce blowing everything out of proportion. But if you choose to consider those kinds of things game changing failures, be my guest.
If you think rampant yapping about nonsense during a crisis isn’t a serious leadership flaw then you’re a very non-serious person.
 

CO. Hoosier

Hall of Famer
Aug 29, 2001
35,478
6,382
113
Contact tracing has never been in place in the USA, with maybe a few isolated exceptions, like midtown Manhattan.

There was a study I read, many weeks ago, that concluded that among postive cases in the USA, when a infected person was assigned one or more contact tracers, and when that infected person was able to generate a list of people who might have been exposed to him or her while likely contagious, only 16% of the people that were identified, on average, ever got word of the possible exposure.

16% is about one out of six, as a math sidebar.

Amerians being what they are, I also seem to recall that the success rate of even getting that one in six people to self-isolate was low. Certainly less than 50-50.

Each of many variables has likely cost tens of thousands of American lives. Mask wearing percentage, contact tracing efffectiveness, testing turnaround time, percentage complying with a "shutdown", extent of misinformation provided by politicians, polititization of a pandemic response, lack of clear support for scientific guidance.

The body count has been enormous, and needlessly so.

It is what it is, but it didn't have to be what it is.
That is not a hindsight analysis, either. Many glaring issues were ignored in February, March, April, May, June, July, and are still being ignored. Issues that so many countries paid attention to in February because they made scientific sense and those countries valued following the scientific knowledge base, which indeed evolves over time.

The current USA body count is officially ~174K. Based on yearly comparison deaths, we can estimate a substantial undercount and perhaps it is more like ~250K. It might be much more had standard-of-care not been advanced to include things like steroids and blood thinners.
What about the clusters? Many deaths flow from nursing or assisted care situations, prisons and jails, meat packing houses, crowded mass transit, bars, or other easily identified infection clusters. Contact tracing probably helps in general community spread, but do we know how many cases or deaths are involved with that? We know where the clusters are, yet we didn't address those issues, and in some cases made them worse through mistaken notions of nondiscrimination against infected elders. Not addressing the clusters is our biggest error, but I don't think that is Trump's fault because one-size-fits-all doesn't work. Then we have the stupidity of not even allowing social distancing and masking in a large church sanctuary but we look the other way for protests. As for the rest of us, information is key and I am generally satisfied with the information to manage my own risk.
 

bawlmer

All-American
Gold Member
Dec 12, 2010
5,080
3,351
113
Contact tracing has never been in place in the USA, with maybe a few isolated exceptions, like midtown Manhattan.

There was a study I read, many weeks ago, that concluded that among postive cases in the USA, when a infected person was assigned one or more contact tracers, and when that infected person was able to generate a list of people who might have been exposed to him or her while likely contagious, only 16% of the people that were identified, on average, ever got word of the possible exposure.

16% is about one out of six, as a math sidebar.

Amerians being what they are, I also seem to recall that the success rate of even getting that one in six people to self-isolate was low. Certainly less than 50-50.

Each of many variables has likely cost tens of thousands of American lives. Mask wearing percentage, contact tracing efffectiveness, testing turnaround time, percentage complying with a "shutdown", extent of misinformation provided by politicians, polititization of a pandemic response, lack of clear support for scientific guidance.

The body count has been enormous, and needlessly so.

It is what it is, but it didn't have to be what it is.
That is not a hindsight analysis, either. Many glaring issues were ignored in February, March, April, May, June, July, and are still being ignored. Issues that so many countries paid attention to in February because they made scientific sense and those countries valued following the scientific knowledge base, which indeed evolves over time.

The current USA body count is officially ~174K. Based on yearly comparison deaths, we can estimate a substantial undercount and perhaps it is more like ~250K. It might be much more had standard-of-care not been advanced to include things like steroids and blood thinners.
In order for contact tracing to be effective, the infection rate needs to be manageable. We had 2 shots at that. In March (when there weren't enough tests) and after the lockdown (when states reopened before their infection rates were under control).

College campuses ought to be pushing/requiring the use of phone apps for tracing, IMO. It's the only way to handle the current rampant infection rates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: glmiu11

glmiu11

Junior
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2014
1,826
923
113
Contact tracing has never been in place in the USA, with maybe a few isolated exceptions, like midtown Manhattan.

There was a study I read, many weeks ago, that concluded that among postive cases in the USA, when a infected person was assigned one or more contact tracers, and when that infected person was able to generate a list of people who might have been exposed to him or her while likely contagious, only 16% of the people that were identified, on average, ever got word of the possible exposure.

16% is about one out of six, as a math sidebar.

Amerians being what they are, I also seem to recall that the success rate of even getting that one in six people to self-isolate was low. Certainly less than 50-50.

Each of many variables has likely cost tens of thousands of American lives. Mask wearing percentage, contact tracing efffectiveness, testing turnaround time, percentage complying with a "shutdown", extent of misinformation provided by politicians, polititization of a pandemic response, lack of clear support for scientific guidance.

The body count has been enormous, and needlessly so.

It is what it is, but it didn't have to be what it is.
That is not a hindsight analysis, either. Many glaring issues were ignored in February, March, April, May, June, July, and are still being ignored. Issues that so many countries paid attention to in February because they made scientific sense and those countries valued following the scientific knowledge base, which indeed evolves over time.

The current USA body count is officially ~174K. Based on yearly comparison deaths, we can estimate a substantial undercount and perhaps it is more like ~250K. It might be much more had standard-of-care not been advanced to include things like steroids and blood thinners.
This is why I can’t get myself to go back in the school. It’s no longer a question about if I’ll get it. It’s how myself and my family will handle it. That’s how I see it. And that’s how I see it for everybody else that’s going back. I’m so worried for those people. And their families. Which is pretty much everybody.
 
  • Like
Reactions: outside shooter

IUINSB

Sophomore
Nov 26, 2012
870
954
93
What about the clusters? . Not addressing the clusters is our biggest error, but I don't think that is Trump's fault because one-size-fits-all doesn't work.
Do you mean the "clusterf@ck in the White House?
Not addressing the WH cluster is only the second biggest error, electing him was the largest.
 

CO. Hoosier

Hall of Famer
Aug 29, 2001
35,478
6,382
113
If you think rampant yapping about nonsense during a crisis isn’t a serious leadership flaw then you’re a very non-serious person.
Some people pay more attention to nonsense than I do. On the list of what I was looking for from the administration, yapping about Lysol is way down the list.
 
Last edited:

jet812

All-Big Ten
Feb 28, 2008
3,067
1,929
113
Understanding how the clusters of dead people are distributed helps. Unfortunately the information about that is difficult to find because such information tends to detract from the scary narrative.
So it matters where the dead people are located? Interesting...
 

glmiu11

Junior
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2014
1,826
923
113
you're an idiot. this is the post you responded to. even quoted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"no idea how this is partisan.

rather total and complete incompetence and malfeasance on the part of govt and the media and the healthcare industry.

the White House holds briefings every day, yet those facts are never given.

the media, both Dem and Pub, have a podium all day every day, with hour after hour of coverage all day every day, yet literally zero age based hard data ever, other than "it affects seniors more"..

i've been bitching for months here regarding the total and complete lack of hard data being given out, other than total positives and deaths, with occasional hospitalizations or ICU capacity.

even then, no age based data.

literally every day we should be getting hard numbers on tests, positives, hospitalizations, ICU admissions, deaths, all broken down by exact age yr, (not some 10 yr grouping), and sex and race info would help as well..

it's a national disgrace of both govt and media the near complete lack of relevant info we've been getting, to the point of looking more like deliberate malfeasance than incompetence..

this is the 10th time i've brought this up at least.

and even post infection lingering effects mentions are as totally vague as they can make them, with zero hard data.

i never made it partisan though, nor have i ever seen you or anyone else respond to the many posts on this exact subject i've made. (except for Zeke).

of course if it isn't partisan or racial, it doesn't matter".
------------------------------------------------------------------------

here i'm talking about the total lack of age based data we have gotten from the govt, media, and even medical community, that i've brought up at least 10 times..

totally different subject than "my plan" which i've mentioned many times and you are welcome to respond to them there, but quote my plan when when you do so, don't state i said something i never said, then respond in a very malevolent way to what you totally fabricated that i said.

so not only are an idiot, but a total liar too, and i don't appreciate someone lying in such a malevolent and dishonest way about what i said on such a serious subject.

if you wish to debate my plan, make my day, but quote and respond there, and to what i actually said.
Just because you’ve presented more facts doesn’t take away from what you’ve preached. Trust me. I’m as guilty as you are in that.
 

82hoosier

All-American
Sep 7, 2001
7,118
4,649
113
I'd agree that some things were mistakes. All the money wasted on hospital ships, emergency hospital rooms, and the crash programs to produce ventilators are examples. Not only were those not needed, those measures helped feed mass hysteria.

There were shortages and distribution problems with PPE. The odd thing is that what the democrats suggested as a fix was already being done. Many criticize Trump for not "leading". Not sure what that means, but if that means arm twisting of governors who were conspicuous part of the RESISTANCE! I think an assertive Trump would have been counterproductive. FWIW, Colorado's strong left-wing governor made good decisions and worked well with Trump and his administration. I'm not sure if Governor Polis would think he was or wasn't' "led" but that really makes no difference to me.

I wish Trump would not have commented on so much stuff that didn't matter and should have been left to others. Hydroxychloroquine is a perfect example. That quickly turned into a stupid political football and withholding it might have cost some lives. His remarks about disinfectant and ultra-violet lights are similar as was his early optimism about beating it back. I don't consider any of that a leadership issue because it was him just yapping and a predictable press and democratic pounce blowing everything out of proportion. But if you choose to consider those kinds of things game changing failures, be my guest.
You really don't know what is meant by Trump not leading the covid effort? Come on!
 

82hoosier

All-American
Sep 7, 2001
7,118
4,649
113
Don't you claim to be a science guy? What a stoopid post.
I call b******* to your whole argument. You're making many gross misrepresentations about the Republicans and the pandemic that it's not worth the time to pull them apart and address all of this revisionist history.
 

CO. Hoosier

Hall of Famer
Aug 29, 2001
35,478
6,382
113
Do you mean the "clusterf@ck in the White House?
Not addressing the WH cluster is only the second biggest error, electing him was the largest.
I call b******* to your whole argument. You're making many gross misrepresentations about the Republicans and the pandemic that it's not worth the time to pull them apart and address all of this revisionist history.
Enough about Trump. Anybody wanna dispute the point that Democrats are by in large uninformed about Covid risks which is what the thread is about?
 

IUINSB

Sophomore
Nov 26, 2012
870
954
93
Enough about Trump. Anybody wanna dispute the point that Democrats are by in large uninformed about Covid risks which is what the thread is about?
Nah, let's talk about Republicans lapping up Trump's lies and re-spewing them throughout the country.
Covid risks? They would be reduced significantly had POSPOTUS reacted with common sense back in Feb and March.
 

Stuffshot

All-American
Feb 20, 2008
7,066
2,598
113
Enough about Trump. Anybody wanna dispute the point that Democrats are by in large uninformed about Covid risks which is what the thread is about?
Nobody who writes "by in large" as you did (instead of "by and large") can lecture the rest of us about being "uninformed."
 

IUclover

Sophomore
Nov 19, 2015
986
732
93
Enough about Trump. Anybody wanna dispute the point that Democrats are by in large uninformed about Covid risks which is what the thread is about?
Repubs are more willing to dine-in or wait to dine at a Chili’s at full capacity compared to Dems who are just as likely to dine-in if Chili’s is only at 25% capacity.

And I should consider this data when contemplating my portfolio investments.

Think I got it. Now is a good time to invest in Chili’s if they’re predominantly located in red districts. Now my wife will let go pick up my new RAV4 Hybrid tomorrow. Thank you.
 

INRanger27

All-American
Jan 11, 2005
7,317
6,730
113
For those data-driven folks: Liberals and those who rely on social media for news (but that's redundant) are misinformed about Covid-19 risks to a stunning degree.

Some findings:

  • On average, Americans believe that people aged 55 and older account for just over half of total COVID-19 deaths; the actual figure is 92%.
  • Americans believe that people aged 44 and younger account for about 30% of total deaths; the actual figure is 2.7%.
  • Americans overestimate the risk of death from COVID-19 for people aged 24 and younger by a factor of 50; and they think the risk for people aged 65 and older is half of what it actually is (40% vs 80%).
Partisanship is plays a significant role in misinformation.


  • People who get their information predominantly from social media have the most erroneous and distorted perception of risk.
  • Those who identify as Democrats tend to mistakenly overstate the risk of death from COVID-19 for younger people much more than Republicans.

Implications:

From a public interest perspective, we believe the top priority should be better information and a less partisan, more fact-based public debate. It is shocking that six months into the pandemic so many people still ignore the basic mortality statistics, with perceived risk driven by political leanings rather than individual age and health. Misperceptions of risk distort both individual behavior and policy decisions.

The fact that a large share of the population overestimates the COVID-19 danger to the young will make a targeted public health response more difficult to agree on. We think it is also likely to delay the recovery, causing a deeper and prolonged recession. (My emphasis)
Some conclusions. The Democrats see a political advantage to the chaos and anxiety brought on by overstating the effects of the virus and obstructing any meaningful efforts at normalcy. So shut-downs and emphasis on cases and death counts, as well as deliberate misinformation, will last through election day.

Moreover, this isn't ignorance isn't just about covid. The Democrats overstate racism, climate change, economic troubles, and police misconduct because Democrats see political advantage in keeping people keyed up about these matters.

It's no wonder that as a whole conservatives and Republicans are less prone to anxiety and depression that are liberals and Democrats.
Moral of the story: Democrats and liberals should watch more Fox News.




I can’t believe, simply am flummoxed, that this thread didn’t go well with the chosen title.
 

Marvin the Martian

Hall of Famer
Sep 4, 2001
27,441
10,487
113

Latest posts