Quite a few people here have made it clear that even being accepting of a minor transgendered is child abuse.
Grooming Behavior
- Thread starter TMFT
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It is complicated in some ways, but IMHO not in that one. In dealing with mental illness in our family, acceptance has always been accepting that there isn't a dividing line. The mental illness is part of who they are. And part of that acceptance is working with their doctors to chart the best course of treatment. I understand the larger point you are trying to make in regard to acceptance., but regardless don't see much of it in several of the people posting on this thread.
Moreover, I don't agree with the characterization of trans issues as "mental illness", but similarly would work with our loved one's doctors to chart the best course for them.
Are the white liberal women the only ones who have choices? Do you have surveys from their grandmothers' era? Surveys on white conservative women who don't have families? Don't get married? Non-white women? It's hard for me to compare the happiness levels of today's women vs. past generations of women in a vacuum.
There have been quite a few changes in the last 60 years outside of the feminist movement. Some of them relate to how we view mental illness. Many of them are massive economic and societal shifts. If there are shifts in their happiness levels (which I haven't seen evidence of), I'd suspect they may be related to those things more than having more options for pursuing happiness.
Why do you think these women would be more happy with fewer choices?
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
See my post regarding the dividing line between a person and a mental illness.
They believe that gender dysphoria is a mental illness and believe a person would be better off "cured" of that dysphoria (a corollary is that they think a cure is possible no matter how improbable).
You can accept a person is a great person and battling something you wish they didn't have to--alcoholism, mental illness, obesity--while not also accepting that thing they battle. I think this is their mindset when I say they wouldn't object to "accepting" the child. You accept them as someone battling/dealing with/afflicted with [insert battle here]. If you think in these terms, then enabling the opposing force of the battle is obviously a bad thing.
I recognize that many in the trans community view this type of thinking as transphobic but I don't think it's thinking necessarily born of hate.
Maybe the people you feel think this way would be better at explaining it than me.
Quit trying to put an argument on me that isn't being made. Again, I don't think having fewer choices is what will make them happy, I think making different choices can impact that.
Conservatives in general rate happier lives. Conservative women no different, that is why when you do a search there is a specific subset that is pulled out. Women rated a happier life in the 1970's than men and now it is the opposite.
Gains in women’s rights haven't made women happier. Why is that?
Since the 70s, women in the US and Europe have reported feeling less satisfied with their lives
So why the unhappiness? I think sometimes getting what you want because you think the grass is greener doesn't work out. Less women have partners. I think women want to be viewed as more than sex objects and that "hook up culture" and "why do guys get to be studs" didn't maybe work out like they expected it would as it reduced many of them to just that. I think they deal with men who are commitment averse and in many respects immature far past the age when they should know better. Work maybe wasn't the fulfilling thing they thought it would be but now the choice not to work has almost been removed because of economic factors. They feel they are taking on more load then men. It can be lots of things.
What I do know is that young, liberal, particularly white women seem to be having a rough time mentally right now. They have more choices and more roads to follow and all the "Yes Queen!!!" and "You go girl!!!" support they could have ever hoped for and it isn't making them happy.
Just because you have more choices doesn't mean that all of the choices are good ones.
That is more geared toward invited seminar speakers. If you have a research symposium with 10 speakers, for example, DO NOT invite 10 white males over 40
I have led speaker recruitment for American Chemical Society (ACS) meetings and our goal was to have speaker demographics come close to matching ACS membership demographics. At the time that was 20% women, 25% minorities, etc.
Quit trying to put an argument on me that isn't being made. Again, I don't think having fewer choices is what will make them happy, I think making different choices can impact that.
Conservatives in general rate happier lives. Conservative women no different, that is why when you do a search there is a specific subset that is pulled out. Women rated a happier life in the 1970's than men and now it is the opposite.
Gains in women’s rights haven't made women happier. Why is that?
Since the 70s, women in the US and Europe have reported feeling less satisfied with their liveswww.google.com
So why the unhappiness? I think sometimes getting what you want because you think the grass is greener doesn't work out. Less women have partners. I think women want to be viewed as more than sex objects and that "hook up culture" and "why do guys get to be studs" didn't maybe work out like they expected it would as it reduced many of them to just that. I think they deal with men who are commitment averse and in many respects immature far past the age when they should know better. Work maybe wasn't the fulfilling thing they thought it would be but now the choice not to work has almost been removed because of economic factors. They feel they are taking on more load then men. It can be lots of things.
What I do know is that young, liberal, particularly white women seem to be having a rough time mentally right now. They have more choices and more roads to follow and all the "Yes Queen!!!" and "You go girl!!!" support they could have ever hoped for and it isn't making them happy.
Just because you have more choices doesn't mean that all of the choices are good ones.
This sentence really resonated:
Declining happiness among women may seem depressing. But who ever claimed an expanded consciousness brings satisfaction?
If I could do my life over again, I would think long and hard about being a tradesman. Know what you need to know, clock out when you need, make good money, don't have to overthink things... I miss the simplicity of life many days.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
The other unforeseen consequence here is that now that woman are firmly entrenched in the workforce, crushing men in school and getting more than 50% of the college spots, there are fewer men out there who could even be the breadwinner. That eliminates, for many, the stay-at-home option.
I'm not saying that, overall, this is a bad thing. I'm just pointing out it is limiting certain options for women in later generations that ones in previous generations had.
That was the main theme of Great Expectations. No one was happier than Joe Gargery the blacksmith, and Pip was fine until he entered the wide world of, well, of expectations.
No. The issue is how would one know if a minor is transgendered? The DSM is nothing but inconclusive mush. Life altering gender affirming care is child abuse, absent very rare and specific factors.
Adults are different. Adults are free to do what they want and the DSM doesn’t matter.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
To be clear, when you refer to "gender affirming care," you are referring to surgeries or hormone therapy, right?
Hopefully there will be some good Germans there to knock around the degenerates like you’ve known them to do.😉
They should be loved by their parents, but it shouldn‘t be accepted anymore than trichophagia, self-harm such as cutting, or other mental disorders. They do need love & psychological help…
What other condition is “cured” by cutting off healthy body parts or permanently altering human organs and with hormones or drugs?
I’ve heard of cases where human beings see body parts as evil or possessed or something. We don’t cut those off.
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As we argue about trans, feelings, empathy, and why people are trying to convince us that our little boys are actually little girls , I’m having a melancholy evening, thinking of the young men pulled from high school class and shipped to Vietnam. For their senior trip.
Is governmental power, or todays liberalism experiment the worse way to experience the death of civilization?
I think I miss the indigenous tribes that respected their ways of life.
Is governmental power, or todays liberalism experiment the worse way to experience the death of civilization?
I think I miss the indigenous tribes that respected their ways of life.
Improving a penis is a lot different than cutting one off. Still, adults should do what they want, consensually, and assuming non-violence.
But teaching this shit to elementary school kids and trying - TRYING - to get them to get confused about sexuality is selfish and cruel. Kids have enough troubles with finding their way at that age. They don’t need adults telling them about “the day I changed my pee pee.”
Or ... we could all accept that we are a tragic mistake of evolution, reject heterosexuality, stop reproducing and walk hand in hand into extinction as missexuals. But even Rust knew not to talk that crap at dinner. Only maniacs would do that.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
Six toes or fingers?
The hard, theoretical question is this: even if you think it is a mental illness and they would be better off not having it, if it is uncurable, and the option is (1) don't allow these interventions and the person is miserable to the point of having a 50% chance of suicide or (2) allow it and potentially ruin their sexual lives forever (I think this is the side effect?) but they have a 25% chance of suicide (I'm making these numbers up for a hypothetical here), what do you do? Who decides? When can the decision be made? (I get that a lot of the debate on the anti-choice side is based on the notion that these numbers are in flux, not well known, and might be questioned).
Rather than each side of this debate going round and round calling the other crazy or evil or whatever, can't we all acknowledge this is a very difficult issue with few clear-cut answers? That your #1 concern can be the interests of the child, but you can still land on different sides of this issue, on both govt policy and personal judgment of a situation, while operating in good faith?
I frankly don’t give the adolescent gender dysphoria activists that much credit. I think most of the issue is driven by ideology and it has developed into a social contagion .The clusters of transgenderism in terms of time and location is telling.
Genetic based gender issues is a real condition and those who suffer with it deserve our empathy and support. Turning that condition into a political cause cé·lè·bre diminishes those who have it.
In a time when kids shoot other kids every day in this country, I simply can’t get too excited when people, including the president of United States, turn gender fluidity into an important issue. We have scores of more serious problems.
https://apnews.com/article/transgender-gender-affirming-care-ban-55773f9fa1e3decd9bc77990ad9af61d. Maybe some of you could read and try to understand the actual problems these kids and parents are going through.
yikes!
I’ve thought about those kids ever since you posted this. If they don’t have genetic abnormalities, their issues won’t be resolved with drugs, hormones, and surgery. As I mentioned, Trinidad Colorado has been at the epicenter of the sex change industry since the 70’s, there are many who live here are now who are 70-80 years old who have been through sex changes. The dirty secret is many have significant medical problems. I don’t think gender bending and sex changes wear well.
Im struck by why so many lay and credentialed women and so few men are involved with advocacy for this issue. Then I found this:
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
What credit don't you want to give them? That they sincerely are trying to help the child and don't want them to commit suicide? Put aside if they are mistaken on the facts; can you really not credit them with non-malicious intent?
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I wouldn't rely too heavily on the "pilot study" you found, which
1. is 32 years old;
2. reports on a test using a grand total of 33 parent-child couples, 16 of which had Gender Identity Disorder;
3. reports that 53% of the GID mothers had symptoms of Border Line Personality Disorder (based on non-blind interviews by the author!) OR depression--but in the numbers, 46% had depression and only 25% (that's 4 mothers) scored in the range of BLPD due to the non-blind interviews.
4. Selected the children on the GID side in a very non-randomized way (referals for treatement in a Childhood Psychiatry unit).
That study's conclusions and reasoning might be right, but that study itself doesn't prove it.
I don’t think the adult motivation for trans advocacy is as pure as you suggest. Let’s start with LBGTQ. There is zero causation similarity between the LBG and the T. That taints the discussion from the beginning. Next, the effect of being T is all together different from effect of being LBG. I think Biden’s statement that trans is the civil rights issue of our time is crazy. No other immutable characteristics or protected belief causes life changing hormones, drugs or surgery. The obsession over gender dysphoria is way over done, as is any obsession. I’ve read a lot about this and none of the modern writing includes a detailed discussion about chromosome anomalies. I think the reason is they want to keep the issue at an emotional level. I think the DSM V about child sexual dysphoria is a lot of mush. A 10 year old can’t get an aspirin in school without parental consent, but they can get sex changing hormones?
I don’t think any minor should receive this treatment. But I have also suggested if that is public policy, we should at least insist on independent expert review by professionals not connected with treatment.
God I can’t believe im going to be out in the dating world in this climate. I’ll be lost with conversation.
“Well this thing ain’t gonna suck itself” still a good line?
McMurt's date keep telling him "SHHH" during sex. Being perplexed, he investigated.. She had a leak.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
You could use the line “ so, you ever go down on a guy before?” We still bust a buddy of mine’s balls about using that line in college. But he claims that 60% of the time it would work every time.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
Don’t get snipped! Think of the threads on here if you have a third!
Looking at it from a financial standpoint. It’s impossible to impregnate a trans woman.
CoH, think we are in agreement on one point.
Lumping our fellow Americans into a single group such as LGBSQT is disrespecting each of us as individuals.
A Trans for example may not have a desire to be lumped together with gays, bisexuals. or lesbians.
On the other hand, the group does have one thing in common. The "cultural war" could somehow bind them together.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I don't understand what anything you wrote has to do with the question I asked other than the first sentence? Could you make a more explicit link there?
I will admit I think that less than 100% of trans activists are in favor of children being identified as trans and giving them hormones or surgeries solely out of concern for the children. I think there are some trans people who advocate and think this because they need to in order to legitimize/normalize their own being, to the extent some of them (typically biological males) are very irrational and lean towards violence and shouting people down vs. debate.
But I think most others on the other side of this debate from you (including all the people here on the WC like Zeke and Tommy Cracker) have what they perceive as the children's best interest in mind. (I think you do, too.)
The question has always been what is the optimal way to support a person from a medical and humanitarian way. That is regarding any kind of medical support, and it's the same with trans.
What the best way to help someone if they want help using the medical benefits that are available.
We know there is a massive depression and suicide risk with trans people, particularly trans teens. We know shaming them into the closet doesn't work. Telling them they are defective freaks and needs to be 'converted to normal' doesn't work either.
So far the data supporting gender affirming care have been dramatic.
The suicide rates among those who have had access to gender affirming care is 73% lower than those that didn't so far (IIRC).
On top of that, for adult trans that go to surgery (which my understanding is that it's extremely rare to go to level four of gender affirming care which is surgical solutions) the regret rates is something like 3% whereas the overall average of surgical regret is 14% (again, IIRC).
So suicide rates drop significantly and the surgical regret rates are a fifth of the average.
If any of those two are ever proven to be false....then I would think the program would lose it's support.
But that's not the case.
That's the evidence and it's where we (well I) wish the discussion would stay at with all of us having a goal of providing the best method of support with the best intentions for the individual.
We can dream.
We are talking about kids! Every bit of of gender confusion a kid has comes from some adult in the kid‘s life. It’s not unlike believing in the tooth fairy. Kids don’t make that up.
Did you know that in some states, if a third grade girl says she wants to be called “him” it is against the law for a teacher to use “her” or for that teacher to inform the parents? That’s nuts. Teaching young boys that they might be a girl and their penis can be removed is crazy and in my view child abuse.
I question your comment about suicide rates. The data are not so clear.
This whole issues is an adult cause heavily driven by adult ideological beliefs and advocacy which adults foist on children. . We are doing unspeakable damage to kids we call trans.
Except for the ones that don't kill themselves because they're accepted and not shamed.
Yeah, for a few months life is just peachy (then they stop asking). The studies you guys are alluding to are garbage, there is a reason the Euros are backing away from this stuff.
Your subtext seems to be that adolescents are deciding about gender after thoughtful self-analysis. They don’t; because they can’t. Studies are pretty convincing that teen destructive behaviors like drugs, violence, sex, eating disorders, etc. are the product of social groups and peer pressure. Why would anybody think gender issues are any different? Gender identity issues are much worse because, contrary to other adolescent destructive behavior, adults encourage and enable gender switching. Now the left makes gender switching a campaign issue.
CoH, you seem to believe a youngster's gender identity is like a piece of clay subject to being formed by various influences.
Others believe a youngster will eventually choose a gender identity based upon his own biological makeup with cultural influences ultimately taking a backseat.
CoH, am I misreading you here?
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