Afghanistan - what a mess by Biden and Trump...

[ribbont]

I have no idea if Trump's exit plan would have better but I am pretty sure it could not have been worse than the mess Biden has us in. But Trump put him in this position, so he bears blame as well.

I am no expert AT ALL in Afghan foreign policy but giving back the country to the Taliban cannot be a good thing.

Good opinion article here.

Opinion | Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To. (Published 2021)

A disastrous Taliban takeover wasn’t inevitable.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I will disagree, this is the one thing Trump did right. We have spent almost 20 years building an Afghan Army. We have been training and supplying them for a LONG time. If they can't win now, the current country is a failed state. We can't sit there forcing a government on the people that the people don't want.

 

[kurt cloverdales]

I will disagree, this is the one thing Trump did right. We have spent almost 20 years building an Afghan Army. We have been training and supplying them for a LONG time. If they can't win now, the current country is a failed state. We can't sit there forcing a government on the people that the people don't want.

one thing we need to do is after they completely take over is send in drones to blow up our equipment , puts a pit in my stomach watching the Taliban driving down the street in Humvees we all paid for

 

[IUCrazy2]

I will disagree, this is the one thing Trump did right. We have spent almost 20 years building an Afghan Army. We have been training and supplying them for a LONG time. If they can't win now, the current country is a failed state. We can't sit there forcing a government on the people that the people don't want.

This.

The Pashtuns are the only people willing to truly fight for the country. We could have been there another decade or two, in a state of constant low intensity conflict, and still have the same result.

 

[ribbont]

I will disagree, this is the one thing Trump did right. We have spent almost 20 years building an Afghan Army. We have been training and supplying them for a LONG time. If they can't win now, the current country is a failed state. We can't sit there forcing a government on the people that the people don't want.

I agree but why did Trump pick May 1? And Biden accelerate the withdrawal? From what I heard/read, fall or winter would have been a much better time to withdraw.

I agree to get out but the execution has been a total cluster by Biden.

 

[bub-rub]

I have no idea if Trump's exit plan would have better but I am pretty sure it could not have been worse than the mess Biden has us in. But Trump put him in this position, so he bears blame as well.

I am no expert AT ALL in Afghan foreign policy but giving back the country to the Taliban cannot be a good thing.

Good opinion article here.

Opinion | Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To. (Published 2021)

A disastrous Taliban takeover wasn’t inevitable.

www.nytimes.com

how much blood and money does it take to hold together countries that the Brits artificially stitched together 200 years ago for their own empire building needs?

that said, it will be gruesome to watch it fall…

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I agree but why did Trump pick May 1? And Biden accelerate the withdrawal? From what I heard/read, fall or winter would have been a much better time to withdraw.

I agree to get out but the execution has been a total cluster by Biden.

It is very possible there are problems with our plan. I like experts so I would like to read what the generals and diplomats say. I just believe we needed out.

 

[jsig]

Yes. Lets send in the drones.

Obama-led drone strikes kill innocents 90% of the time: report

Drone strikes conducted by the United States during a 5-month-long campaign in Afghanistan caused the deaths of unintended targets nearly nine out of ten times, leaked intelligence documents suggest.

www.washingtontimes.com

Should of never been there in the first place.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Yes. Lets send in the drones.

Obama-led drone strikes kill innocents 90% of the time: report

Drone strikes conducted by the United States during a 5-month-long campaign in Afghanistan caused the deaths of unintended targets nearly nine out of ten times, leaked intelligence documents suggest.

www.washingtontimes.com

Should of never been there in the first place.

I don't agree with the last sentiment. We should have been there long enough to get Bin Laden and degrade Al Qaeda. Offing him was the main goal. We messed up by turning the affair into a nation building exercise. That has been the downfall of almost every single operation we have been involved in since WW2.

Who ruled Afghanistan was not much of our concern. Get the people we want to get, give the people protecting him a bloody enough nose to hopefully deter the harboring of similar minded individuals, and then head out. If there is no Al Qaeda, then the Taliban is really not much of our concern IMO.

 

[larsIU]

That has been the downfall of almost every single operation we have been involved in since WW2.

During the Cold War, when there was a very scary and ever present enemy (USSR), I could see why we might try to nation build or install government friendly to us to create a buffer in certain parts of the world. Hell, the USSR tried it in Afghanistan before we did. Turned out the same in that they left and watched the country descend into chaos.

And into chaos it will go again. I suspect that is the nature of certain parts of the world. As someone mentioned prior, the shaping of the Middle East wasn't organic. It was planned and decided by outside actors. I mean, imagine if we had to live amongst the Canadians. We'd be at war constantly.

 

[bub-rub]

Yes. Lets send in the drones.

Obama-led drone strikes kill innocents 90% of the time: report

Drone strikes conducted by the United States during a 5-month-long campaign in Afghanistan caused the deaths of unintended targets nearly nine out of ten times, leaked intelligence documents suggest.

www.washingtontimes.com

Should of never been there in the first place.

I’ve read some stuff that paints the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as messages sent out to the world more than anything else. It’s worked in the respect that there hasn’t been another 9/11 and I do think that is partly because other countries saw and comprehended what we did and what we are capable of. Don’t necessarily support it but do think that “PR” piece of our gulf adventures made the Saudis et al. clean up their acts.

anyway, humans are weird

 

[Sope Creek]

eh — the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were messages sent out to the world more than anything else. It’s worked in the respect that there hasn’t been another 9/11 and I do think that is partly because other countries saw and comprehended what we did and what we are capable of. Don’t necessarily support it but do think that “PR” piece of our gulf adventures made the Saudis et al. clean up their acts.

anyway, humans are weird

I think you're right in that the invasion of Afghanistan served notice on the rest of the world.

Iraq did too, but it served as a distraction from subjugating Afghanistan fully. Personally, I think the decision to go into Iraq - which I supported at the time - instead of completing the job in Afghanistan is the blunder we'll regret for generations.

 

[stollcpa]

Well everything Biden said about Afghanistan, he was wrong. He’s sending marines in to rescue our people and those that helped us. Too bad he didn’t have to set in the Embassy and wait with other staff.

 

[hookyIU1990]

One of the few things that I agreed with in regards to Trump and also one of the few things I've been happy to see Biden continue. Can't speak to the planning and execution, but it is way past time to get out.

 

[twenty02]

I have no idea if Trump's exit plan would have better but I am pretty sure it could not have been worse than the mess Biden has us in. But Trump put him in this position, so he bears blame as well.

I am no expert AT ALL in Afghan foreign policy but giving back the country to the Taliban cannot be a good thing.

Good opinion article here.

Opinion | Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To. (Published 2021)

A disastrous Taliban takeover wasn’t inevitable.

www.nytimes.com

This conflict was lost years and years ago.... we're finally just getting around to admitting it. What is occurring now was inevitable.

What America Didn’t Understand About Its Longest War

That the war went on so long may be tragic, but it is hardly surprising.

www.politico.com

 

[sparkeyreturns]

I have no idea if Trump's exit plan would have better but I am pretty sure it could not have been worse than the mess Biden has us in. But Trump put him in this position, so he bears blame as well.

I am no expert AT ALL in Afghan foreign policy but giving back the country to the Taliban cannot be a good thing.

Good opinion article here.

Opinion | Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To. (Published 2021)

A disastrous Taliban takeover wasn’t inevitable.

www.nytimes.com

At what point do we ever leave? Do we stay forever? The Taliban was there before we invaded so it's not they were a direct result of us.

Additionally, as someone that thinks Biden is a clown I pray he stays the course and brings our troops home. If you feel we should stay then grab your sons/daughters and fly your ass out there.

 

[sparkeyreturns]

This conflict was lost years and years ago.... we're finally just getting around to admitting it. What is occurring now was inevitable.

What America Didn’t Understand About Its Longest War

That the war went on so long may be tragic, but it is hardly surprising.

www.politico.com

Agreed. Where our focus should be is how we got into this mess. Bush, in my opinion, will go down as one of the worst presidents in history. Total clown and yes I did vote for him once yet only once.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I have no idea if Trump's exit plan would have better but I am pretty sure it could not have been worse than the mess Biden has us in. But Trump put him in this position, so he bears blame as well.

I am no expert AT ALL in Afghan foreign policy but giving back the country to the Taliban cannot be a good thing.

Good opinion article here.

Opinion | Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To. (Published 2021)

A disastrous Taliban takeover wasn’t inevitable.

www.nytimes.com

Every administration since Bush has a hand in this debacle. And it is a debacle. But you always have to ask the question: even if this is bad, is the alternative better?

 

[Sope Creek]

Agreed. Where our focus should be is how we got into this mess. Bush, in my opinion, will go down as one of the worst presidents in history. Total clown and yes I did vote for him once yet only once.

Getting into it was a legitimate exercise . . . a response to 9/11/01.

The problem is that W pivoted to Iraq rather than stay and finish the job in Afghanistan. To me, that killed any chance of the US being successful in either Afghanistan or Iraq.

 

[Sope Creek]

Every administration since Bush has a hand in this debacle. And it is a debacle. But you always have to ask the question: even if this is bad, is the alternative better?

Which alternative is that?

 

[twenty02]

Agreed. Where our focus should be is how we got into this mess. Bush, in my opinion, will go down as one of the worst presidents in history. Total clown and yes I did vote for him once yet only once.

We're on our 4th administration.... two of each party. The aims and goals were admirable.... and at different points thought achievable. Obama put 100k troops in early in his tenure.... assured by the national security apparatus that this surge would break the Taliban for good. But it's been obvious for 6+ years that was never going to happen.... and nobody wanted to be the one to just admit reality and pull the plug.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I think you're right in that the invasion of Afghanistan served notice on the rest of the world.

Iraq did too, but it served as a distraction from subjugating Afghanistan fully. Personally, I think the decision to go into Iraq - which I supported at the time - instead of completing the job in Afghanistan is the blunder we'll regret for generations.

The decision to go into Iraq was a blunder. But we were never going to "subjugate[] Afghanistan fully." If that was the goal, it was mistaken. Unfortunately, so was the notion of training the Afghan people to create, value, and defend their own democracy. I was all for that notion but our experience there and elsewhere shows that there is a limit to what a superpower can do.

I'm most scared we will forget this lesson in another 20 years and try it again someplace else.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Which alternative is that?

Staying

 

[stollcpa]

Wonder if the press will remind him? What do you say @TheOriginalHappyGoat ?

Is Biden Haunted by Vietnam? Should He Be?

The president said this withdrawal will be nothing like what happened in 1975, but there are some striking parallels.

foreignpolicy.com

 

[stollcpa]

U.S. Embassy In Kabul Tells Staff To Destroy Sensitive Material And Evacuate

A memo obtained by NPR lays out the emergency preparations being made by American diplomats at the U.S. Embassy in Kabul — including the destruction of sensitive documents and computers.

www.npr.org

 

[Sope Creek]

The decision to go into Iraq was a blunder. But we were never going to "subjugate[] Afghanistan fully." If that was the goal, it was mistaken. Unfortunately, so was the notion of training the Afghan people to create, value, and defend their own democracy. I was all for that notion but our experience there and elsewhere shows that there is a limit to what a superpower can do.

I'm most scared we will forget this lesson in another 20 years and try it again someplace else.

I don't think we had a firm goal in Afghanistan, other than "git them bastages". Once it became clear that the Taliban had employed the rope-a-dope strategy, and Afghanistan had rolled up like a pill bug, we decided to go into Iraq.

I think we could have subjugated the people in Afghanistan. The cost might not have been worth the result, though, but I don't know what else you would want to do there.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I don't think we had a firm goal in Afghanistan, other than "git them bastages". Once it became clear that the Taliban had employed the rope-a-dope strategy, and Afghanistan had rolled up like a pill bug, we decided to go into Iraq.

I think we could have subjugated the people in Afghanistan. The cost might not have been worth the result, though, but I don't know what else you would want to do there.

I think our problem in Afghanistan is that too many people don't care. They don't see how the US, Russians, Taliban, are going to improve their lives. So they sit it out and roll with the flow. So a smallish number of fanatics can easily take over. That's why we struggled to build them a capable army.

But I'm sure some people here served there (Bing? Ranger?) and would know better. Unfortunately, those two are off the board.

 

[UncleMark]

The decision to go into Iraq was a blunder. But we were never going to "subjugate[] Afghanistan fully." If that was the goal, it was mistaken. Unfortunately, so was the notion of training the Afghan people to create, value, and defend their own democracy.

Our response to 9-11 should have been to go into Afghanistan and rout Al-Qaeda, period. With or without the Taliban. If they got in the way, they get blasted and we carry on attacking the target. Once OBL and Al-Qaeda were dealt with, you get the fvck out. Mission Accomplished.

I didn't think going into Iraq was justified, but was willing to give Colin Powell the benefit of the doubt. He was the only one I trusted. I am a schmuck.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Our response to 9-11 should have been to go into Afghanistan and rout Al-Qaeda, period. With or without the Taliban. If they got in the way, they get blasted and we carry on attacking the target. Once OBL and Al-Qaeda were dealt with, you get the fvck out. Mission Accomplished.

I didn't think going into Iraq was justified, but was willing to give Colin Powell the benefit of the doubt. He was the only one I trusted. I am a schmuck.

I supported Iraq, at the time so did Rock and other liberals. Strangely enough, CO opposed it.

I honestly thought there was no way Bush, Powell, and Blair were all lying.

 

[UncleMark]

I supported Iraq, at the time so did Rock and other liberals. Strangely enough, CO opposed it.

I honestly thought there was no way Bush, Powell, and Blair were all lying.

I didn't trust Bush or Chaney, and didn't care about Blair one way or the other, but I trusted Colin Powell. Looking back, I don't think he himself thought/knew he was lying, though. I think he knuckled under, even though he wasn't fully convinced the evidence justified the invasion. Being the good soldier, he fell in line.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

According to NPR today. The Taliban take over isn't nearly as bad as what the media is saying. It's only a small area is many cities. As they said, Nothing really to see here, please move along.
See, I do listen to differing "news" outlets.
They ALMOST, said it was mostly peaceful, but stopped just .oo1" short of it. Giving them the benefit of doubt, I think they just ran out of time to actually say it.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I supported Iraq, at the time so did Rock and other liberals. Strangely enough, CO opposed it.

I honestly thought there was no way Bush, Powell, and Blair were all lying.

They weren’t lying. Neither were the Senators, Democrats and Republicans, that voted to authorize it. They saw the intelligence and believed it. As did the previous administration. Disagreeing about what should have been done about it is not an issue with me (though now we all have 20/20 hindsight, but it continues to irk me when people claim all these people were lying. Several investigations and reports show they didn’t. Saying what they all believed to be true is not lying.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

They weren’t lying. Neither were a the Senators, Democrats and Republicans, that voted to authorize it. They saw the intelligence and believed it. As did the previous administration. Disagreeing about what should have been done about it is not an issue with me (though now we all have 20/20 hindsight, but it continues to irk me when people claim all these people were lying. Several investigations and reports show they didn’t. Saying what they all believed to be true is not lying.

Fair point. How about this, I did not think all 3 would unquestionably accept Curveball as a source.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Fair point. How about this, I did not think all 3 would unquestionably accept Curveball as a source.

He was important, but far from the totality of the intelligence.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

According to NPR today. The Taliban take over isn't nearly as bad as what the media is saying. It's only a small area is many cities. As they said, Nothing really to see here, please move along.
See, I do listen to differing "news" outlets.
They ALMOST, said it was mostly peaceful, but stopped just .oo1" short of it. Giving them the benefit of doubt, I think they just ran out of time to actually say it.

From the WSJ, Taliban forces are going house to house in some regions forcing 12 year old girls to "marry" their soldiers. It's widespread rape.

Afghans Tell of Executions, Forced ‘Marriages’ in Taliban-Held Areas

Taliban leaders have pledged to be magnanimous in victory, but Afghans pouring into Kabul and still in Taliban-held areas say they have witnessed unprovoked attacks on civilians and executions of captured soldiers.

www.wsj.com

 

[larsIU]

I'm most scared we will forget this lesson in another 20 years and try it again someplace else.

Is this on the board in Vegas yet? I retire in 20 years.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

According to NPR today. The Taliban take over isn't nearly as bad as what the media is saying. It's only a small area is many cities. As they said, Nothing really to see here, please move along.
See, I do listen to differing "news" outlets.
They ALMOST, said it was mostly peaceful, but stopped just .oo1" short of it. Giving them the benefit of doubt, I think they just ran out of time to actually say it.

Liar.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

From the WSJ, Taliban forces are going house to house in some regions forcing 12 year old girls to "marry" their soldiers. It's widespread rape.

Afghans Tell of Executions, Forced ‘Marriages’ in Taliban-Held Areas

Taliban leaders have pledged to be magnanimous in victory, but Afghans pouring into Kabul and still in Taliban-held areas say they have witnessed unprovoked attacks on civilians and executions of captured soldiers.

www.wsj.com

But... Buuut.. they both can't be true, right?
This is why we can not believe our media. How many people here could actually be "friends" if we didn't have a lieing media coach to pick our teams on this 5th grade kick ball recess field?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

He was important, but far from the totality of the intelligence.

Seemingly he is what tipped the scales. Powell said to the UN:

"The source was an eyewitness — an Iraqi chemical engineer who supervised one of these facilities. He was present during biological agent production runs. He was also at the site when an accident occurred in 1998. Twelve technicians died."

That was Curveball and the mobile weapons factory was a big part of our case. There weren't others claiming to have seen that incident above. Germany firmly believed Curveball was lying and was much less excited about war. The US and Britain believed him and wanted war. It seems he was the tipping point.

However it works, I backed Bush 43 at that time and I was wrong. We shouldn't have invaded Iraq. I don't think we had much of a choice with Afghanistan unless they were willing to turn over OBL and his gang.

 

[DANC]

I have no idea if Trump's exit plan would have better but I am pretty sure it could not have been worse than the mess Biden has us in. But Trump put him in this position, so he bears blame as well.

I am no expert AT ALL in Afghan foreign policy but giving back the country to the Taliban cannot be a good thing.

Good opinion article here.

Opinion | Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To. (Published 2021)

A disastrous Taliban takeover wasn’t inevitable.

www.nytimes.com

In a recent interview with Mike Pompeo, he said the Taliban was told by Trump that, if they tried to take over the country by force, there would be military repurcussions. There is no way Trump would have allowed this national embarrassment.

Just remember that Biden was part of the Democrat Congress who refused to offer more aid to South Vietnam when the North was invading.

He also advised Obama when it came to taking out Bin Laden - he was against it.

Joe is a one man national defense disaster.