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Court of Appeals to Trump: You're not immune from prosecution

Bowlmania

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Sep 23, 2016
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Not a surprising result. Now the question is whether SCOTUS takes the case. Given the narrowness and clarity of the Court of Appeal's 3-0 decision, there's plenty of speculation that this will be the final word on immunity. In any event, it appears we'll know whether or not it's going up by the end of this month. If the Supreme Court declines to hear it, the election subversion trial will probably proceed no later than May and be over by mid-July.

Some highlights from the court's 57 page per curiam opinion:

"Former President Trump's alleged efforts to remain in power despite losing the 2020 presidential election were, if proven, an unprecedented assault on the structure of our government. He allegedly injected himself into a process in which the President has no role - -the counting and certifying of the Electoral College votes - - thereby undermining constitutionally established procedures and the will of Congress. To immunize former President Trump's actions would .. 'further aggrandize the presidential office, already so potent and relatively immune from judicial review, at the expense of Congress.'"

"We cannot accept former President Trump's claim that a President has unbounded authority to commit crimes that would neutralize the most fundamental check on executive power - - the recognition and implementation of election results. Nor can we sanction his apparent contention that the Executive has carte blanche to violate the rights of individual citizens to vote and to have their votes count."

"Former President Trump's stance would collapse our system of separated powers by placing the President beyond the reach of all three branches. Presidential immunity against federal indictment would mean that, as to the President, the Congress could not legislate, the Executive could not prosecute and the Judiciary could not review. We cannot accept that the office of the Presidency places its former occupants above the law for all time thereafter." (emphasis added).

Read the opinion below.

 
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Not a surprising result. Now the question is whether SCOTUS takes the case. Given the narrowness and clarity of the Court of Appeal's 3-0 decision, there's plenty of speculation that this will be the final word on immunity. In any event, it appears we'll know whether or not it's going up by the end of this month. If the Supreme Court declines to hear it, the election subversion trial will probably proceed no later than May and be over by mid-July.

Some highlights from the court's 57 page per curiam opinion:

"Former President Trump's alleged efforts to remain in power despite losing the 2020 presidential election were, if proven, an unprecedented assault on the structure of our government. He allegedly injected himself into a process in which the President has no role - -the counting and certifying of the Electoral College votes - - thereby undermining constitutionally established procedures and the will of Congress. To immunize former President Trump's actions would .. 'further aggrandize the presidential office, already so potent and relatively immune from judicial review, at the expense of Congress.'"

"We cannot accept former President Trump's claim that a President has unbounded authority to commit crimes that would neutralize the most fundamental check on executive power - - the recognition and implementation of election results. Nor can we sanction his apparent contention that the Executive has carte blanche to violate the rights of individual citizens to vote and to have their votes count."

"Former President Trump's stance would collapse our system of separated powers by placing the President beyond the reach of all three branches. Presidential immunity against federal indictment would mean that, as to the President, the Congress could not legislate, the Executive could not prosecute and the Judiciary could not review. We cannot accept that the office of the Presidency places its former occupants above the law for all time thereafter." (emphasis added).

Read the opinion below.

He’s in big trouble in dc
 
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Not a surprising result. Now the question is whether SCOTUS takes the case. Given the narrowness and clarity of the Court of Appeal's 3-0 decision, there's plenty of speculation that this will be the final word on immunity. In any event, it appears we'll know whether or not it's going up by the end of this month. If the Supreme Court declines to hear it, the election subversion trial will probably proceed no later than May and be over by mid-July.

Some highlights from the court's 57 page per curiam opinion:

"Former President Trump's alleged efforts to remain in power despite losing the 2020 presidential election were, if proven, an unprecedented assault on the structure of our government. He allegedly injected himself into a process in which the President has no role - -the counting and certifying of the Electoral College votes - - thereby undermining constitutionally established procedures and the will of Congress. To immunize former President Trump's actions would .. 'further aggrandize the presidential office, already so potent and relatively immune from judicial review, at the expense of Congress.'"

"We cannot accept former President Trump's claim that a President has unbounded authority to commit crimes that would neutralize the most fundamental check on executive power - - the recognition and implementation of election results. Nor can we sanction his apparent contention that the Executive has carte blanche to violate the rights of individual citizens to vote and to have their votes count."

"Former President Trump's stance would collapse our system of separated powers by placing the President beyond the reach of all three branches. Presidential immunity against federal indictment would mean that, as to the President, the Congress could not legislate, the Executive could not prosecute and the Judiciary could not review. We cannot accept that the office of the Presidency places its former occupants above the law for all time thereafter." (emphasis added).

Read the opinion below.

Had this been a split decision SC would take it for sure but they may not at this point.

I hope they don't to keep the prison train moving forward.
 
Had this been a split decision SC would take it for sure but they may not at this point.

I hope they don't to keep the prison train moving forward.
Agreed.

I'm sure even Trump understands he has no viable defense. His entire strategy is to run out the clock, and hopefully the Supreme Court doesn't enable that - - - particularly after they denied Smith's request in December to fast-track a ruling on this issue by bypassing the Court of Appeals and making a quick call themselves.
 
Had this been a split decision SC would take it for sure but they may not at this point.

I hope they don't to keep the prison train moving forward.
Well, it wouldn't ever be prison for Trump -- it would be confinement at Mar-A-Lago with no right to travel, a Martha Stewart ankle bracelet and probably restrictions on visitors.

We can only hope the prison department rules limit the use of the internet if he's convicted. I think regular inmates now have some internet rights but it's restricted.

Edit to ask: Anybody have an idea how big a fine he faces?
 
Well, it wouldn't ever be prison for Trump -- it would be confinement at Mar-A-Lago with no right to travel, a Martha Stewart ankle bracelet and probably restrictions on visitors.

We can only hope the prison department rules limit the use of the internet if he's convicted. I think regular inmates now have some internet rights but it's restricted.

Edit to ask: Anybody have an idea how big a fine he faces?
he'd just pardon himself if he wins.
 
Christie said last night that he expects this trial to begin this spring. Has anyone determined how long this trial may last?
A few months seems to be the common guesstimate, but I think it'll be less than that. It's just four counts, and how could the defense go on for weeks? He has no defense.
 
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Then the question would be whether he has to use formal documentation and procedures to pardon himself, or whether he could just pardon himself in his own mind.
self-pardon. and i'm sure it would be a political/legal mess but if he wins i suspect he'd have support
 
Well, it wouldn't ever be prison for Trump -- it would be confinement at Mar-A-Lago with no right to travel, a Martha Stewart ankle bracelet and probably restrictions on visitors.

We can only hope the prison department rules limit the use of the internet if he's convicted. I think regular inmates now have some internet rights but it's restricted.

Edit to ask: Anybody have an idea how big a fine he faces?
Are you sure it wouldn't be in prison? Talk about two-tiered justice system.

Also, I was thinking it has been mentioned that he would lose Secret Service protection if convicted of a felony.
 
A few months seems to be the common guesstimate, but I think it'll be less than that. It's just four counts, and how could the defense go on for weeks? He has no defense.

You underestimate Trump's ability to come up with mind-blowingly dumb defenses.
 
Well, it wouldn't ever be prison for Trump -- it would be confinement at Mar-A-Lago with no right to travel, a Martha Stewart ankle bracelet and probably restrictions on visitors.

We can only hope the prison department rules limit the use of the internet if he's convicted. I think regular inmates now have some internet rights but it's restricted.

Edit to ask: Anybody have an idea how big a fine he faces?
Really why?

No comparison to Martha's crimes.

The baboons that broke in have gotten prison sentenses and Trump is the guy that caused it all.
 
self-pardon. and i'm sure it would be a political/legal mess but if he wins i suspect he'd have support
It's interesting to think about how the personalties of the SCOTUS justices might predict how they might rule on such things. Presidents lose all control over them once they are no longer "nominees" and become "judges."

Thomas and Alioto seem to be a predictable duo.

Roberts is not always predictable but he seems to be trying to be a peacemaker/ protector of the SCOTUS reputation so, to do that, he is sometimes unpredictable.

Sotomayor, Kagan and Jackson seem predictable.

In recent months, Gorsuch seems less of an unpredictable renegade than I originally thought he would be. So I put him in his own group of who-knows?

"I Love Children" Barrett and "I Like Beer" Kavanaugh could develop as the unpredictable renegades who decide cases. I've been surprised at some of their decisions. But, we don't really know their thinking yet and, specifically, don't know which issues become the primary reason for their decisions.
 
Are you sure it wouldn't be in prison? Talk about two-tiered justice system.

Also, I was thinking it has been mentioned that he would lose Secret Service protection if convicted of a felony.
Oh. Well that would change his life.
 
Really why?

No comparison to Martha's crimes.

The baboons that broke in have gotten prison sentenses and Trump is the guy that caused it all.
I just don't think many 77-year-old guys (orange or not) get sent to real "prison" on their first offense.

I think the verdicts all say they're sentenced to "the custody of the Department of Prisons" or something like that. Then, the Department of Prisons gets to decide which specific facility they go to.

It's a lot easier for the Department of Prisons to deal with the Secret Service (who won't go away no matter where he is sent) if he goes to Mar-A-Lago. That's it.
 
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I just don't think many 77-year-old guys (orange or not) get sent to real "prison" on their first offense.

I think the verdicts all say they're sentenced to "the custody of the Department of Prisons" or something like that. Then, the Department of Prisons gets to decide which specific facility they go to.

It's a lot easier for the Department of Prisons to deal with the Secret Service (who won't go away no matter where he is sent) if he goes to Mar-A-Lago. That's it.
I follow that logic but damn, was hoping to see him running from a latino gang in the showers
 
I follow that logic but damn, was hoping to see him running from a latino gang in the showers
No general inmate population for The Con. Maybe they'd convert the prison tower for him, furnish it with a bed and a gold toilet, and rename it Trump Tower. Room with a view - - of barbed wire.
 
The Federal Sentencing Guidelines call for incarceration for some of this shit. Jail time is a real possibility.
Well., that would certainly change his life.

I wonder how likely it is (if he in fact gets convicted and then sentenced to a real prison) that he would find himself saying hello to some of the Jan. 6 convicts that he told to go to the Capitol and fight like hell.

I would think they may have some important questions for him.
 
No general inmate population for The Con. Maybe they'd convert the prison tower for him, furnish it with a bed and a gold toilet, and rename it Trump Tower. Room with a view - - of barbed wire.
Plus few visitors and little internet access, right?
 
self-pardon. and i'm sure it would be a political/legal mess but if he wins i suspect he'd have support
So the absurd take is; If I'm elected President I can shoot someone an then pardon myself.

Just suggesting that should land whomever is President in a small locked room for 12 months to get their mind right.
 
So the absurd take is; If I'm elected President I can shoot someone an then pardon myself.

Just suggesting that should land whomever is President in a small locked room for 12 months to get their mind right.
could be that the old guys never contemplated a president needing to
 
Not a surprising result. Now the question is whether SCOTUS takes the case. Given the narrowness and clarity of the Court of Appeal's 3-0 decision, there's plenty of speculation that this will be the final word on immunity. In any event, it appears we'll know whether or not it's going up by the end of this month. If the Supreme Court declines to hear it, the election subversion trial will probably proceed no later than May and be over by mid-July.

Some highlights from the court's 57 page per curiam opinion:

"Former President Trump's alleged efforts to remain in power despite losing the 2020 presidential election were, if proven, an unprecedented assault on the structure of our government. He allegedly injected himself into a process in which the President has no role - -the counting and certifying of the Electoral College votes - - thereby undermining constitutionally established procedures and the will of Congress. To immunize former President Trump's actions would .. 'further aggrandize the presidential office, already so potent and relatively immune from judicial review, at the expense of Congress.'"

"We cannot accept former President Trump's claim that a President has unbounded authority to commit crimes that would neutralize the most fundamental check on executive power - - the recognition and implementation of election results. Nor can we sanction his apparent contention that the Executive has carte blanche to violate the rights of individual citizens to vote and to have their votes count."

"Former President Trump's stance would collapse our system of separated powers by placing the President beyond the reach of all three branches. Presidential immunity against federal indictment would mean that, as to the President, the Congress could not legislate, the Executive could not prosecute and the Judiciary could not review. We cannot accept that the office of the Presidency places its former occupants above the law for all time thereafter." (emphasis added).

Read the opinion below.

you are going to be in a very dark place lets say the sc takes it and delays it
 
Had this been a split decision SC would take it for sure but they may not at this point.

I hope they don't to keep the prison train moving forward.
I’d bet a good amount that the USSC just lets that decision stand. It’s a slam dunk that Trump loses this one. Why waste time hearing the arguments before saying so?
 
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It's interesting to think about how the personalties of the SCOTUS justices might predict how they might rule on such things. Presidents lose all control over them once they are no longer "nominees" and become "judges."

Thomas and Alioto seem to be a predictable duo.

Roberts is not always predictable but he seems to be trying to be a peacemaker/ protector of the SCOTUS reputation so, to do that, he is sometimes unpredictable.

Sotomayor, Kagan and Jackson seem predictable.

In recent months, Gorsuch seems less of an unpredictable renegade than I originally thought he would be. So I put him in his own group of who-knows?

"I Love Children" Barrett and "I Like Beer" Kavanaugh could develop as the unpredictable renegades who decide cases. I've been surprised at some of their decisions. But, we don't really know their thinking yet and, specifically, don't know which issues become the primary reason for their decisions.
The court’s reputation is only in danger with people who lack all ability to be objective & therefore assume that every one else does as well. This also leads to the mindset that if they rule against your wishes, it’s because they’re partisan & can’t possibly be the correct ruling. Trump-like mentality, congrats.
 
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self-pardon. and i'm sure it would be a political/legal mess but if he wins i suspect he'd have support
Of course he’d have support. He’d have support from his sycophants even if he walked across the stage during a debate and slapped Joe Biden, knocked him down, resulting in Biden breaking a hip. Dbm would link the video as if that was something to be proud of. I’m not kidding.
 
Ridiculous, which is the adjective that pretty much sums up all the social media nonsense you regurgitate here.

Biden is spot-on about Garland. While DOJ quickly jumped into action regarding investigating and prosecuting the Jan 6 rioters, they dragged their heels in investigating and prosecuting the post-election crimes of the guy who inspired them.

"A Washington Post investigation found that more than a year would pass before prosecutors and FBI agents jointly embarked on a formal probe of actions directed from the White House to try to steal the election. Even then, the FBI stopped short of identifying the former president as a focus of that investigation.

"A wariness about appearing partisan, institutional caution, and clashes over how much evidence was sufficient to investigate the actions of Trump and those around him all contributed to the slow pace. Garland and the deputy attorney general, Lisa Monaco, charted a cautious course aimed at restoring public trust in the department while some prosecutors below them chafed, feeling top officials were shying away from looking at evidence of potential crimes by Trump and those close to him, The Post found."

Ultimately it was the House Select Committee that did much of the legwork and got the ball rolling. DOJ seemingly followed their lead instead of aggressively getting out front on this.
 
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Even more evidence that Biden and Garland are not in control of the investigations, charges and trials. Your talking point is as dead as it is dumb.
Yes, and further evidence that Garland, unlike Barr when he was AG, is not the president's bootlicker.

The AG and the FBI head in a Trump-run government that begins in January 2025 would, at Trump's insistence, be wholly loyal to Trump, not the Constitution, and more than willing to do his personal bidding. What Trump did to Comey after he refused to pledge his loyalty to Trump was a sneak preview of what will happen - - but on a much larger scale - - in the United States' first strongman regime.
 
I’d bet a good amount that the USSC just lets that decision stand. It’s a slam dunk that Trump loses this one. Why waste time hearing the arguments before saying so?
To help Trump delay until after election. Not sure he cares about winning. He just wants to be able to pardon himself
 
To help Trump delay until after election. Not sure he cares about winning. He just wants to be able to pardon himself
SCOTUS won’t do that. They’re more likely to let the decision stand than to bother with taking the case. Not a chance Trump wins the immunity claim.
 
SCOTUS won’t do that. They’re more likely to let the decision stand than to bother with taking the case. Not a chance Trump wins the immunity claim.
I don't think he would win but they could take their time and then rule against him which would help the delay.

All he really needs is to hold everything up until after election and hope he comes out on top

If he was smart then he would make a deal with Haley to step aside in exchange for her pardon
 
I don't think he would win but they could take their time and then rule against him which would help the delay
I don’t think they have any interest at all in helping with a delay. I don’t think any of them have any personal loyalty to Trump. Not one. I predict when he loses the immunity claim, likely by letting the Appeals Court decision stand, he’ll bad mouth the court as ungrateful, disloyal members of the “deep state.”
 
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I don’t think they have any interest at all in helping with a delay. I don’t think any of them have any personal loyalty to Trump. Not one. I predict when he loses the immunity claim, likely by letting the Appeals Court decision stand, he’ll bad mouth the court as ungrateful, disloyal members of the “deep state.”
Hopefully that will be the case and that will likely be trump's response unless he knows better than to piss off the sc
 
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