You can’t say that!

[DANC]

Henry Louis Gates Jr.

His show on PBS, Finding Your Roots, is fantastic. You often hear stories like this about his guest's ancestors.

A buddy loaned me his most recent book- Who's Black and Why. I need to do a better job of working through the nightstand pile.

I've seen that show and it's very interesting. I think the BBC has a show like that where they go over people's genealogy.

It's a fascinating subject. The Ft. Wayne genealogy library is supposedly the 2nd largest in the nation, behind the one in Salt Lake City.

 

[TommyCracker]

Your last line is exactly why we shouldn’t be teaching anything remotely resembling African American Studies (as opposed to African American history) in K-12.

Why in the world would you be a Nazi in the American story? You weren’t alive 160 years ago. Do you actually believe that you, personally, are morally culpable to any degree, no matter how infinitesimally small for something people who happened to have the same skin color as you and lived on the same continent did before your grandfather was even born?

This is, no doubt, the unsaid assumption behind much of this debate and I just don’t understand why you identify so much with slave owners. You are actually buying into their rationale, and the rationale of the actual White Supremacists that “whites” constitute some meaningful, metaphysical category across all time and space. I don’t get it.

Nah I don't, just trying to keep things simple for this discussion. No one likes to think of themselves as the villain.

My big annoyance has always been the manipulation of history so we don't hurt our egos. So we lie to ourselves to make us feel warm and fuzzy.

Would prefer if we just sacked up and owned it. Let's not sugar coat it. Let's learn from it.

We've seen our greatest prosperity after the emancipation which begs the question, were the moral and actual horrors of slavery imperative to the success that we saw after?

Why did we believe otherwise? What was the mindset? Is that mindset prevalent today (cost of labor vs earnings)? Was the fear of losing free labor validated vs paying a decent wage that allowed workers to live with dignity? Maybe even get some actual boots to lift up by the straps?

On a personal level, I truly believe we are great enough and smart enough to do both. We should strive for that.

Why do we say we're for freedom yet have one of highest amount of our citizens locked up? Even with China who has 4 times the amount of people? Are we really for freedom?

How are we the richest nation on the planet yet have far and away the highest poverty rate of any developed country? Are we really rich as a whole?

Secondly I'm annoyed by the lies that we've told ourselves, the propaganda we've told ourselves. The whole southern excuses for the war (they all lead back to wanting slavery). The rise of the daughters of the confederacy that literally whitewashed education and glorified the southern cause in a nationalistic, heroic tone.

Hell the other day I believe it was Desantis that stated we were the ones that led to the abolishment of slavery across the globe....when in reality we were one of the last major countries to abolish it.

But we have to always be great even if it's a lie.

Just over and over of BS american exceptionalism fables tends to annoy me, as it cheapens our real accomplishments (which are many) because we've propagandized so much other.

So yeah, this whole topic seems like more of that.

I just want us in general to sack up and be accountable. Try to live up to the values and greatness that we love to project.

Actions, not words and all that jazz.

 

[TommyCracker]

A person may benefit from the skills they learned in spite of their enslavement and the brutality they endured. Ok.

Including that as context in any discussion of bondage is self serving only to the group that enslaved the other.

What Lars said.

I really need to work on being a much more succinct communicator.

 

[hookyIU1990]

Nah I don't, just trying to keep things simple for this discussion. No one likes to think of themselves as the villain.

My big annoyance has always been the manipulation of history so we don't hurt our egos. So we lie to ourselves to make us feel warm and fuzzy.

Would prefer if we just sacked up and owned it. Let's not sugar coat it. Let's learn from it.

We've seen our greatest prosperity after the emancipation which begs the question, were the moral and actual horrors of slavery imperative to the success that we saw after?

Why did we believe otherwise? What was the mindset? Is that mindset prevalent today (cost of labor vs earnings)? Was the fear of losing free labor validated vs paying a decent wage that allowed workers to live with dignity? Maybe even get some actual boots to lift up by the straps?

On a personal level, I truly believe we are great enough and smart enough to do both. We should strive for that.

Why do we say we're for freedom yet have one of highest amount of our citizens locked up? Even with China who has 4 times the amount of people? Are we really for freedom?

How are we the richest nation on the planet yet have far and away the highest poverty rate of any developed country? Are we really rich as a whole?

Secondly I'm annoyed by the lies that we've told ourselves, the propaganda we've told ourselves. The whole southern excuses for the war (they all lead back to wanting slavery). The rise of the daughters of the confederacy that literally whitewashed education and glorified the southern cause in a nationalistic, heroic tone.

Hell the other day I believe it was Desantis that stated we were the ones that led to the abolishment of slavery across the globe....when in reality we were one of the last major countries to abolish it.

But we have to always be great even if it's a lie.

Just over and over of BS american exceptionalism fables tends to annoy me, as it cheapens our real accomplishments (which are many) because we've propagandized so much other.

So yeah, this whole topic seems like more of that.

I just want us in general to sack up and be accountable. Try to live up to the values and greatness that we love to project.

Actions, not words and all that jazz.

I can't speak for the .gov or other people, but I just decided a long time ago that I was gonna live and act in the manner I hoped others would also. I treat people the way I want to be treated and discard the assholes that don't/won't return the favor. I get the feeling that you share that.

Mockery and shunning at a personal level will do more than any top down BS regulation or edict. I wish more people would stand up for their true feelings of what's right instead of joining one of the 2 political tribes who leverage their members against each other.

 

[TommyCracker]

What have you done to make amends, other than project your guilt to everyone else? Are you providing reparations, real man?

I don‘t know what kind of shithole you went to school in, but I was taught all about slavery…

One I'm not trying to whitewash, excuse or propagandize the impacts of holding American citizens in bondage and the subhuman ways they were treated afterwards because it makes me feel bad.

I'm definitely not playing the victim and won't be calling Stephen Miller because I was the victim of 'reverse racism' like a lot of you guys on the right feel.

 

[IUclover]

Dumb thread on many levels by OP who prob was enlightened by another Federalist woke opinion piece.

OPs next thread will likely take a jab at slaves for quiet quitting.

 

[larsIU]

I think from the clip I saw linked here, the one black committee member said they were trying to provide uplifting stories and heroes for students so that black kids didn’t think their lot in life was to be victims. That seems like a noble goal. I think they are going to edit the offending sentence or paragraph.

I don’t disagree with the goal. The execution lacked tact.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Dumb thread on many levels by OP who prob was enlightened by another Federalist woke opinion piece.

OPs next thread will likely take a jab at slaves for quiet quitting.

Oh just stop with your patronizing condescending bullshit. There is nothing untrue or supportive of slavery in the proposed curriculum. This whole subject reveals the deeply imbedded liberal notion that black people must not be positively seen in any context. Every post critical of the curriculum springs from that idea.

 

[hookyIU1990]

I don’t disagree with the goal. The execution lacked tact.

Was it the execution or the politicization?

It seems like very few are willing to have an honest discussion.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I don’t disagree with the goal. The execution lacked tact.

I think the critics lack tact.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think from the clip I saw linked here, the one black committee member said they were trying to provide uplifting stories and heroes for students so that black kids didn’t think their lot in life was to be victims. That seems like a noble goal. I think they are going to edit the offending sentence or paragraph.

A slave cannot be seen as having beneficial skills. You can’t say that!

 

[IUclover]

Oh just stop with your patronizing condescending bullshit. There is nothing untrue or supportive of slavery in the proposed curriculum. This whole subject reveals the deeply imbedded liberal notion that black people must not be positively seen in any context. Every post critical of the curriculum springs from that idea.

Heil capitalism and a higher pain tolerance!

 

[Circlejoe]

When Michelle Obama spoke of living in the White House knowing that slaves built it, she wasn’t talking about those who picked cotton. . She was talking about those who knew construction trades. History tells us that in some cases the slaves and emancipated slaves used those skills for individual benefit.

I would think liberals would celebrate accomplishments and skills of blacks despite being owned like a wagon. I guess not.

I have no clue what Florida says about Jim Crow in its curriculum. Why don’t you research that and start a thread.

Troll.

 

[larsIU]

Was it the execution or the politicization?

It seems like very few are willing to have an honest discussion.

I think the critics lack tact.

Words matter. And the word benefit assumes the skill they were allowed to learn in bondage alleviates some portion of the horror of their existence as if they wouldn’t have been able to learn this as a free man. As such, there can logically be no benefit.

Ergo, no tact. The politicization is a consequence of our times but does little to absolve the creators of this language from their mistake. Admit it and move on. A mistake is a larger problem when hollow justifications are given to explain it away. Accountability and all.

 

[hoosboot]

I don’t think they were trying to say that slavery wasn’t all bad.

I think they were trying to point out the fact that for emancipated slaves, those who had skills (even if taught to them while a slave) did better than those who did not.

I guess the question is why is that an important part of teaching this part of history in the grades being covered?

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Words matter. And the word benefit assumes the skill they were allowed to learn in bondage alleviates some portion of the horror of their existence as if they wouldn’t have been able to learn this as a free man. As such, there can logically be no benefit.

Ergo, no tact. The politicization is a consequence of our times but does little to absolve the creators of this language from their mistake. Admit it and move on. A mistake is a larger problem when hollow justifications are given to explain it away. Accountability and all.

It seems that the 1619 project, 1817, voters rights, DEI, CRT ...What alphabet and numerical s did I miss? All have something in comen with the outrage over "try that in a small town".

$$$

How about love your brother instead of finding cracks?

 

[hookyIU1990]

Words matter. And the word benefit assumes the skill they were allowed to learn in bondage alleviates some portion of the horror of their existence as if they wouldn’t have been able to learn this as a free man. As such, there can logically be no benefit.

That's not something I agree with. The context I have is from Bowlmania's quote below.

"Instruction includes how slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit."

How is the implication that they were "allowed" to develop skills? In most cases, skills were developed in spite of (reading as an example) or because of (the Robert Smalls sailing example) those who owned them.

How does that alleviate any of slavery's horror?

If you think my premise is that slavery was beneficial to those enslaved, you're mistaken.

 

[twenty02]

The liberal freak out over the Florida high school history curriculum is a clear window into the racist soul of the left.

In summary . . .

The curriculum noted that upon emancipation, some slaves who learned a trade while a slave were able to use those skills as a free person for their benefit.

The left, led by Kamala Harris, immediately pounced and said that the Florida education officials were saying that slavery benefited some slaves. That notion is strictly forbidden. The Harris/Liberal freak out is by no means a mild disagreement. It is full-throated senseless shouting and screaming.

Some slaves learning skills in the trades while enslaved is objectively true. Using those skills after emancipation for personal benefit is also objectively true.

Yet, that can’t be said. Why?

The answer has been part of history since 1619. Black people are oppressed. They don‘t have skills. Thus liberals tell us that Tim Scott is an exception to the norm, that Clarence Thomas isn’t really black, that blacks can’t manage photo ID’s that blacks can’t do math, and that blacks can only achieve with AA or DEI.

During this curriculum debate I heard a black dude say that just because slavery makes white people uncomfortable is no reason to change teaching. . That was revealing. We must understand that slavery is not about slaves and slave owners. They both have been gone for well over 150 years. Teaching about slavery is really teaching about whites and blacks. That is current affairs. Blacks need to be taught that they are still victims of whites and whites must understand they are still part of a long-gone despised institution.

Skin color is indeed destiny.

Since you referenced Tim Scott, maybe we should check the wire and see what he thinks?

Black Republicans rebuke Ron DeSantis over Florida history standards about slavery

The majority of Black Republicans in Congress have come out and criticized the Florida standards that teach about the "personal benefit" Black people derived from slavery.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[twenty02]

The curriculum literally goes on to cite I believe 16 different examples of former slaves. But you didn’t get that far because you switched into indignant mode like you were told to do before absorbing the whole point.

That’s okay. You’re not a nuance man. You’re a narrative man. The world needs followers.

I've read this thread for 5 minutes and see you have posted two outright lies. (Race of committee members and the "16" examples)

You a good sheep, no doubt. More like a parrot, IMHO. You remind me of the bimbo PR people the parties put out on TV that run their smooth tongue entirely based upon what their handlers put on a talking points memo. Not really giving a shit if any of it is true or not.

Let me guess, you have a job that revolves around putting together PowerPoint slides for your senior?

 

[outside shooter]

So the whole 'hey-slavery-wasn't-all-bad' is a little like saying, Anne Frank should've felt fortunate, most people would kill for the kind of book sales she attained.

That Pompeii eruption wasn't all bad. Made for some very fertile soil for Roma tomatoes.

 

[larsIU]

That's not something I agree with. The context I have is from Bowlmania's quote below.

How is the implication that they were "allowed" to develop skills? In most cases, skills were developed in spite of (reading as an example) or because of (the Robert Smalls sailing example) those who owned them.

How does that alleviate any of slavery's horror?

If you think my premise is that slavery was beneficial to those enslaved, you're mistaken.

Oh I don’t think you believe any part of slavery was beneficial. So why have a curriculum which implies anything of the sort?

Like Tommy, I think we should treat slavery like the Germans treat the holocaust.

Apologies if I mistook your thoughts.

 

[Baller23Boogie]

What facts do they have wrong?

View embedded media

This person goes through person by person and if true, absolutely destroys the examples given of slaves that thrived after being free.

 

[larsIU]

It seems that the 1619 project, 1817, voters rights, DEI, CRT ...What alphabet and numerical s did I miss? All have something in comen with the outrage over "try that in a small town".

$$$

How about love your brother instead of finding cracks?

100% agree with you last line Joe. We should all probably just drop acid one time together and solve all the damn problems. Probably create a lot of new ones but I’m willing to give it a try at this point.

Still a better idea than trying to conflate a benefit to an enslaved person with the horrors of our original sin as a country.

 

[jet812]

One I'm not trying to whitewash, excuse or propagandize the impacts of holding American citizens in bondage and the subhuman ways they were treated afterwards because it makes me feel bad.

I'm definitely not playing the victim and won't be calling Stephen Miller because I was the victim of 'reverse racism' like a lot of you guys on the right feel.

Nor am I. Keep your guilt though, I don’t deserve it.

 

[TMFT]

At least "Instruction includes how molestation victims develop skills which, in some instances, can be applied in adulthood for their partners’ sexual and relationship benefit” didn’t make the health curriculum cut.

 

[DANC]

Why would I believe a guy on Twitter whose ID is Alexander - Sex Critical?

https://twitter.com/etotheipie?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1682764410224357377%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

 

[Baller23Boogie]

Why would I believe a guy on Twitter whose ID is Alexander - Sex Critical?

https://twitter.com/etotheipie?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1682764410224357377%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

I mean, he gave citations for his claims, but sure, dispute it because of his twitter name.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

benefit assumes the skill they were allowed to learn in bondage alleviates some portion of the horror of their existence

No it doesn’t. I think you and others who assume that see slaves as a monolithic group, not as individuals. There are times to think like that, but the point of the Florida standard looks at one aspect of slave life as a person, an individual. That is a good thing.

Since you referenced Tim Scott, maybe we should check the wire and see what he thinks?

Black Republicans rebuke Ron DeSantis over Florida history standards about slavery

The majority of Black Republicans in Congress have come out and criticized the Florida standards that teach about the "personal benefit" Black people derived from slavery.

www.nbcnews.com

I guess I disagree with TS on that one point. Of course slavery was as bad as he said it was, But slaves are individuals. Slaves were people. We must recognize that.

This is why I think the lives of people like Harriet Tubman and Katherine Johnson are so inspiring. They preserved despite overwhelming oppression and accomplished great things. They should not be thrown on histor’s scrap heap because of their groups. It’s a fact that some slaves learned skills to be used for their benefit. Maybe not the same skills as Harriet Tubman, but useful skills nevertheless less. I think acknowledging those people is a good thing. That does not detract one bit from the horrors of slavery or the oppression of Jim Crow.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Words matter. And the word benefit assumes the skill they were allowed to learn in bondage alleviates some portion of the horror of their existence as if they wouldn’t have been able to learn this as a free man. As such, there can logically be no benefit.

Ergo, no tact. The politicization is a consequence of our times but does little to absolve the creators of this language from their mistake. Admit it and move on. A mistake is a larger problem when hollow justifications are given to explain it away. Accountability and all.

If it’s written in such a way that it could be interpreted in this really bad way, then it needs to be changed. Think that should be pretty obvious to everyone. I don’t know the exact language used.

 

[Bowlmania]

But slaves are individuals. Slaves were people. We must recognize that.

But they weren't afforded that recognition then. That's the point.

"Thrown on histor's [sic] scrap heap because of their groups?" What the hell are you even talking about? What some clearly want to do is whitewash their history.

They preserved despite overwhelming oppression

It's persevered, Einstein.

 

[Bowlmania]

If it’s written in such a way that it could be interpreted in this really bad way, then it needs to be changed. Think that should be pretty obvious to everyone. I don’t know the exact language used.

Here's the language:

"Instruction [in the course] includes how slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit."

As Tim Scott noted earlier this week, "there's no silver lining in slavery."

There's little doubt the language will be deleted. Mind-boggling that it was ever written and included in the Standards.

Tim Scott hits DeSantis on new Florida curriculum: ‘No silver lining in slavery’

Republican presidential candidate and Sen. Tim Scott (R-S.C.) criticized and Florida Gov. Ron Desantis (R) for his state’s new standards on the teaching of Black history. Scott rebuked the ne…

thehill.com

 

[Baller23Boogie]

Here's the language:

"Instruction [in the course] includes how slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit."

As Tim Scott noted earlier this week, "there's no silver lining in slavery."

There's little doubt the language will be deleted.

I did a report on Booker T Washington and remember that he taught himself to read after being freed, yet they want kids to be taught that he became a teacher and learned his skills while being a slave, which isn't correct.

That's the type of stuff easy to fact check, yet they are trying to pass.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I have long claimed to encounter people at Civil War battlefields that try to minimize slavery. "It was bad, but...". A whole lot of people don't want to believe great grandpappy was racist. My grandparents were southern dirt farmers, they were racist. I bet they were less racist than their grandparents, at least one of whom served in the CSA.

Why on earth do we need "but"? Chattel Slavery was bad for the people that experienced it as a slave. Full stop. Why do we need more.

 

[IUCrazy2]

If it’s written in such a way that it could be interpreted in this really bad way, then it needs to be changed. Think that should be pretty obvious to everyone. I don’t know the exact language used.

When people say they want an honest conversation, there are a whole bunch of them lying....

To take this away from the whole slavery conversation, the truth of the matter is that dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan probably ended up costing less lives on each side in the long run. A survivor of Hiroshima or Nagasaki and their family members who maybe suffered from the radiation impacts in future generations may not be able to accept that likely truth. Too much emotion and personal pain wrapped up in it. Same here.

So it is hard to accept that slavery is a horrible institution on one hand while also accepting that for those slaves who happened to be in the wrong place at the right time in the US (when slavery ended) some of them did probably possess some skills that they maybe wouldn't have because of the situation they were forced into. "How dare you put a silver lining on slavery!" I don't see it that way. It is part of the story.

Take the racist watermelon trope for instance. That was something that the slave masters "allowed" their slaves to grow and harvest for themselves. After emancipation the former slaves got so adept at turning that into an economic benefit to them, Southern Whites went on a racial campaign against the fruit. Which looks completely stupid to us now. That is part of the story. Jim Crow was a reaction to economic and political improvement of former slaves and their offspring. Quite a bit of that initial economic improvement was getting paid for things that they were forced to do as slaves only years before.

It feels icky to say that but it is the story. Slavery can be bad and some of the things the former slaves picked up as slaves being turned into economic opportunities when they were finally recognized and compensated for their labor can exist at the same time. I think it is a pretty important thing to note as you transition to discussing Reconstruction and Jim Crow. It sets the landscape for the transition from slave state to segregation and creation of a racial caste system.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

When people say they want an honest conversation, there are a whole bunch of them lying....

To take this away from the whole slavery conversation, the truth of the matter is that dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan probably ended up costing less lives on each side in the long run. A survivor of Hiroshima or Nagasaki and their family members who maybe suffered from the radiation impacts in future generations may not be able to accept that likely truth. Too much emotion and personal pain wrapped up in it. Same here.

So it is hard to accept that slavery is a horrible institution on one hand while also accepting that for those slaves who happened to be in the wrong place at the right time in the US (when slavery ended) some of them did probably possess some skills that they maybe wouldn't have because of the situation they were forced into. "How dare you put a silver lining on slavery!" I don't see it that way. It is part of the story.

Take the racist watermelon trope for instance. That was something that the slave masters "allowed" their slaves to grow and harvest for themselves. After emancipation the former slaves got so adept at turning that into an economic benefit to them, Southern Whites went on a racial campaign against the fruit. Which looks completely stupid to us now. That is part of the story. Jim Crow was a reaction to economic and political improvement of former slaves and their offspring. Quite a bit of that initial economic improvement was getting paid for things that they were forced to do as slaves only years before.

It feels icky to say that but it is the story. Slavery can be bad and some of the things the former slaves picked up as slaves being turned into economic opportunities when they were finally recognized and compensated for their labor can exist at the same time. I think it is a pretty important thing to note as you transition to discussing Reconstruction and Jim Crow. It sets the landscape for the transition from slave state to segregation and creation of a racial caste system.

I agree with most of what you write, but I would note that just because something is true, doesn't mean it should necessarily be included in the curriculum. No one has the time to teach or learn all the facts in any course. So you have to pick and choose what you use, to advance a narrative, not "the" narrative. Any historical narrative is necessarily a product of the people writing it. Yes, it is constrained by the facts, but again, there are quite a lot of stories that can be told with any given set of historical facts depending on your editorial choices, framing, and emphasis.

Focusing on the individual people coming out of slavery and telling a story about how some managed to do better because they had learned skills as a blacksmith, etc., I think, is perfectly fine and educational--it shows that people in even the harshest of circumstances can fight through it and that success is based on material, economic utility and sometimes on pure luck of the draw for individuals. But ascribing any moral good to the slave owners or institution of slavery would be the absolute wrong moral message (and wrong-headed economically, too: you'd have to compare what that person would have learned in the counter-factual situation where slavery didn't exist).

I didn't know that story about watermelon. That's a good one.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

When people say they want an honest conversation, there are a whole bunch of them lying....

To take this away from the whole slavery conversation, the truth of the matter is that dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan probably ended up costing less lives on each side in the long run. A survivor of Hiroshima or Nagasaki and their family members who maybe suffered from the radiation impacts in future generations may not be able to accept that likely truth. Too much emotion and personal pain wrapped up in it. Same here.

So it is hard to accept that slavery is a horrible institution on one hand while also accepting that for those slaves who happened to be in the wrong place at the right time in the US (when slavery ended) some of them did probably possess some skills that they maybe wouldn't have because of the situation they were forced into. "How dare you put a silver lining on slavery!" I don't see it that way. It is part of the story.

Take the racist watermelon trope for instance. That was something that the slave masters "allowed" their slaves to grow and harvest for themselves. After emancipation the former slaves got so adept at turning that into an economic benefit to them, Southern Whites went on a racial campaign against the fruit. Which looks completely stupid to us now. That is part of the story. Jim Crow was a reaction to economic and political improvement of former slaves and their offspring. Quite a bit of that initial economic improvement was getting paid for things that they were forced to do as slaves only years before.

It feels icky to say that but it is the story. Slavery can be bad and some of the things the former slaves picked up as slaves being turned into economic opportunities when they were finally recognized and compensated for their labor can exist at the same time. I think it is a pretty important thing to note as you transition to discussing Reconstruction and Jim Crow. It sets the landscape for the transition from slave state to segregation and creation of a racial caste system.

Were free Blacks able to learn skills? Why credit slavery for the learning of skills. Black farmers wanting to grow watermelon would have learned to grow watermelon.

We give the North far too much credit on race. But Blacks did own businesses, worked as ship builders. They enlisted in the military. They didn't need slavery to learn skills. Southern Blacks would have done the same.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Full stop.

Mods lock this thread. There has to be rules or we end up with anarchy. Marv wrote Full stop. That means that's it. crazy and brad and others who continue to post know how this works. do better.

lock it up

 

[IUCrazy2]

I agree with most of what you write, but I would note that just because something is true, doesn't mean it should necessarily be included in the curriculum. No one has the time to teach or learn all the facts in any course. So you have to pick and choose what you use, to advance a narrative, not "the" narrative. Any historical narrative is necessarily a product of the people writing it. Yes, it is constrained by the facts, but again, there are quite a lot of stories that can be told with any given set of historical facts depending on your editorial choices, framing, and emphasis.

Focusing on the individual people coming out of slavery and telling a story about how some managed to do better because they had learned skills as a blacksmith, etc., I think, is perfectly fine and educational--it shows that people in even the harshest of circumstances can fight through it and that success is based on material, economic utility and sometimes on pure luck of the draw for individuals. But ascribing any moral good to the slave owners or institution of slavery would be the absolute wrong moral message (and wrong-headed economically, too: you'd have to compare what that person would have learned in the counter-factual situation where slavery didn't exist).

I didn't know that story about watermelon. That's a good one.

The watermelon story is actually a good? one. It is the type of story that does two things: help show the resourcefulness of the slaves/former slaves in playing the hand they were dealt while also pointing out some of the cruelty and backwardness of probably a majority of American whites and Europeans in history.

How Watermelons Became a Racist Trope

Before its subversion in the Jim Crow era, the fruit symbolized black self-sufficiency.

www.theatlantic.com

I do think you have to pick and choose what you teach with limited time.

 

[hoot1]

The Harris speech is an example of how the so-called cultural war has become a major part of our political dialogue these days. Is this mainly political war going to help us face the problems confronting our entire today or is a distraction which only further divides us ?

Also isn't education the prime responsibility of state and local government ? Why should the Vice President of the U.S. be telling the people of Florida how to run their schools ? The answer if of course is because the governor of Florida is running for the presidency and has made the cultural war a big part of his campaign.

 

[Baller23Boogie]

I agree with most of what you write, but I would note that just because something is true, doesn't mean it should necessarily be included in the curriculum. No one has the time to teach or learn all the facts in any course. So you have to pick and choose what you use, to advance a narrative, not "the" narrative. Any historical narrative is necessarily a product of the people writing it. Yes, it is constrained by the facts, but again, there are quite a lot of stories that can be told with any given set of historical facts depending on your editorial choices, framing, and emphasis.

Focusing on the individual people coming out of slavery and telling a story about how some managed to do better because they had learned skills as a blacksmith, etc., I think, is perfectly fine and educational--it shows that people in even the harshest of circumstances can fight through it and that success is based on material, economic utility and sometimes on pure luck of the draw for individuals. But ascribing any moral good to the slave owners or institution of slavery would be the absolute wrong moral message (and wrong-headed economically, too: you'd have to compare what that person would have learned in the counter-factual situation where slavery didn't exist).

I didn't know that story about watermelon. That's a good one.

The problem though is the majority of examples they've used as slaves that thrived after slavery didn't get their skills during slavery or in some cases, weren't even enslaved.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article277595898.html