"White Civil Rights" Rally Approved for D.C. in August

[IUCrazy2]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...13b2f6-8d00-11e7-91d5-ab4e4bb76a3a_story.html

Mark Bray, a Dartmouth lecturer who has defended antifa's violent tactics, recently explained in The Post, "Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists" who believe that physical violence "is both ethically justifiable and strategically effective." In other words, they are no different from neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazis are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that killed 25 million people last century. Antifa members are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that, according to "The Black Book of Communism," killed between 85 million and 100 million people last century. Both practice violence and preach hate. They are morally indistinguishable. There is no difference between those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Hitler and Himmler and those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Stalin and Dzerzhinsky.

The United States defeated two murderous ideologies in the 20th century. So we should all be repulsed by the sight of our fellow Americans carrying the banners of either movement, whether they are waving the red flags of communism or black flags of Nazism. Yet we are not. Communism is not viewed as an evil comparable to Nazism today. As Alex Griswold recently pointed out, the New York Times has published no fewer than six opinion pieces this year defending communism, including essays praising Lenin as a conservationist, explaining why Stalinism inspired Americans, and arguing that the Bolsheviks were romantics at heart and that women had better sex under communism. Can one imagine the Times running similar pieces about the Nazis?

My mother and grandfather fought the Nazis in Poland during World War II, and her family then endured the Stalinist terror that followed, when Nazi occupation was replaced by Soviet domination. So forgive me if I see little moral distinction between the swastika and the hammer and sickle. Both are evil, and their modern adherents need to be condemned — especially when they dare to commit acts of violence in our midst to advance their hateful visions.
​

I'm not alone in seeing very small distinction between the two.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Wow.

I agree with him directionally. Antifa would best serve the liberal cause by staying home or at least protesting peacefully.

A far better way of counter protesting these pseudo-Nazi morons would be to openly mock and laugh at them. Resorting to violence, as perhaps natural as it may be, fuels their fire.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I agree with him directionally. Antifa would best serve the liberal cause by staying home or at least protesting peacefully.

A far better way of counter protesting these pseudo-Nazi morons would be to openly mock and laugh at them. Resorting to violence, as perhaps natural as it may be, fuels their fire.

There's nothing wrong with that opinion. It's the moral equivalence I find incredible.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...13b2f6-8d00-11e7-91d5-ab4e4bb76a3a_story.html

Mark Bray, a Dartmouth lecturer who has defended antifa's violent tactics, recently explained in The Post, "Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists" who believe that physical violence "is both ethically justifiable and strategically effective." In other words, they are no different from neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazis are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that killed 25 million people last century. Antifa members are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that, according to "The Black Book of Communism," killed between 85 million and 100 million people last century. Both practice violence and preach hate. They are morally indistinguishable. There is no difference between those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Hitler and Himmler and those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Stalin and Dzerzhinsky.

The United States defeated two murderous ideologies in the 20th century. So we should all be repulsed by the sight of our fellow Americans carrying the banners of either movement, whether they are waving the red flags of communism or black flags of Nazism. Yet we are not. Communism is not viewed as an evil comparable to Nazism today. As Alex Griswold recently pointed out, the New York Times has published no fewer than six opinion pieces this year defending communism, including essays praising Lenin as a conservationist, explaining why Stalinism inspired Americans, and arguing that the Bolsheviks were romantics at heart and that women had better sex under communism. Can one imagine the Times running similar pieces about the Nazis?

My mother and grandfather fought the Nazis in Poland during World War II, and her family then endured the Stalinist terror that followed, when Nazi occupation was replaced by Soviet domination. So forgive me if I see little moral distinction between the swastika and the hammer and sickle. Both are evil, and their modern adherents need to be condemned — especially when they dare to commit acts of violence in our midst to advance their hateful visions.
​

I'm not alone in seeing very small distinction between the two.

Ehhh here’s where you lose my thin defense of what you’re saying. It is shark-jumping to associate American antifa with stalinists and murderous communists. You’re having to connect too many dots and in most cases invent nodes along the way. With these morons in Charlottesville and soon DC marching alongside Nazi flags and Klan members, there are no dots to connect.

 

[iu_a_att]

Because we view almost everything in this country on the left to right paradigm. If I had said that the Nazis were not on the right, we would have had 5 pages of you pedants arguing why they were. Sometimes it is easier to just concede a point that has nothing to do with the point one is trying to make because you know in advance that it is going to detour from the conversation you are trying to have.

For the sake of avoiding that, I accepted that the White Nationalists are considered on the right side of the political spectrum and that Antifa is the left. In reality I think the political spectrum as circular and believe that in reality those two groups are closer together on that spectrum than they are to my position. But people like you would get in a tizzy that I could think that they were close together and that completely derails the point I was trying to make. I tried to avoid that and still had to spend 3 pages saying I do not agree with Nazis.

I think it would be much better if did not feel forced to accept Nazis as "your side's deplorables". I think it leads you down this crazy path of conflating Antifa with Stalinists all as a way to achieve some kind of crazy balance of deplorables. Of course Trump is himself the source of all this stupidity because, unlike every politician in both mainstream parties, he has decided to play footsie with literal Nazis. Trump's association with the GOP is an unfortunate disgrace which puts otherwise decent conservatives on their back heels in a defensive crouch. You like the tax cuts, you like the judges...it is good for you to remind yourself if not the rest of us that you denounce the truly deplorable crap that Trump continuously drops on all our doorsteps.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I think it would be much better if did not feel forced to accept Nazis as "your side's deplorables". I think it leads you down this crazy path of conflating Antifa with Stalinists all as a way to achieve some kind of crazy balance of deplorables. Of course Trump is himself the source of all this stupidity because, unlike every politician in both mainstream parties, he has decided to play footsie with literal Nazis. Trump's association with the GOP is an unfortunate disgrace which puts otherwise decent conservatives on their back heels in a defensive crouch. You like the tax cuts, you like the judges...it is good for you to remind yourself if not the rest of us that you denounce the truly deplorable crap that Trump continuously drops on all our doorsteps.

What are you asking @IUCrazy2 to do?

 

[iu_a_att]

What are you asking @IUCrazy2 to do?

I am asking him NOT to assign the Nazis the role of "his side's deplorables". I think it would be better for him to say, as I think he actually believes, that Nazis have nothing to do with his side...which he would call conservatism. If he didn't assign the Nazis to his side he might not feel the need to draw some false equivalence between Antifa and Nazis.

 

[cosmickid]

I know this blows your mind but I view it like I do the difference between the Soviets and the Nazis in WW2. The Soviets were actually on our side in that conflict and they helped us, but Stalin is said to have been responsible for around 20 million deaths.

Now he may have had less racist reasons for all those deaths, but he still presided over the killing of 20 million people. Is he as low on the degenerate scale as Hitler? Probably not. But in the scheme of things, he is still a shit bag.

Trying to discuss Stalin is "complicated". His purges were concentrated on his "enemies", and that encompassed people on both his political Left and Right. While he considered himself an adherent of Marxist-Leninism, he actually had many of the autocratic traits of Russian Nationalism and past Tsars like Ivan the Terrible or Alexander I who ruled tyrannically,and in the case of Alexander crushed the Decembrists and established the doctrine of "State Patriotism".

You can throw Putin into this same category. He used his membership in the Communist Party as a stepping stone to power and prestige,but at heart he was always a Russian Nationalist. That's why Putin is a pariah in socialist European circles,but a hero to Fascists and white Supremacists in Europe and thru out the world.

 

[Zizkov]

Again, I think their basic idea is just and moral. However their implementation in America, especially on college campuses, negates any credibility their sound moral imperative has created.

About the only thing they’ve done right here is punching Richard Spencer.

They are not an internationally organized group. Each group run independently from each other although may coordinate for large events.

I don't necessarily agree with then, but IUCrazy's image of them is BS. That doesn't mean some groups aren't capable of using quite questionable methods at times, but the boogey man created by the right is a joke. They just needed something to fit their whataboutism.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Wow.

What was that you were saying about seeing how people react to posts about Nazis?

 

[IUCrazy2]

I am asking him NOT to assign the Nazis the role of "his side's deplorables". I think it would be better for him to say, as I think he actually believes, that Nazis have nothing to do with his side...which he would call conservatism. If he didn't assign the Nazis to his side he might not feel the need to draw some false equivalence between Antifa and Nazis.

I don't believe they are "my side". I gladly disavow them, but I don't feel that some of the people that agree with you will allow me to do that.

In my opinion, Republicans and Democrats are closer together on my political spectrum then they are to the far left or right (respectively). I am willing to agree to that, can you get TMP on board?

 

[Zizkov]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...13b2f6-8d00-11e7-91d5-ab4e4bb76a3a_story.html

Mark Bray, a Dartmouth lecturer who has defended antifa's violent tactics, recently explained in The Post, "Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists" who believe that physical violence "is both ethically justifiable and strategically effective." In other words, they are no different from neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazis are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that killed 25 million people last century. Antifa members are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that, according to "The Black Book of Communism," killed between 85 million and 100 million people last century. Both practice violence and preach hate. They are morally indistinguishable. There is no difference between those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Hitler and Himmler and those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Stalin and Dzerzhinsky.

The United States defeated two murderous ideologies in the 20th century. So we should all be repulsed by the sight of our fellow Americans carrying the banners of either movement, whether they are waving the red flags of communism or black flags of Nazism. Yet we are not. Communism is not viewed as an evil comparable to Nazism today. As Alex Griswold recently pointed out, the New York Times has published no fewer than six opinion pieces this year defending communism, including essays praising Lenin as a conservationist, explaining why Stalinism inspired Americans, and arguing that the Bolsheviks were romantics at heart and that women had better sex under communism. Can one imagine the Times running similar pieces about the Nazis?

My mother and grandfather fought the Nazis in Poland during World War II, and her family then endured the Stalinist terror that followed, when Nazi occupation was replaced by Soviet domination. So forgive me if I see little moral distinction between the swastika and the hammer and sickle. Both are evil, and their modern adherents need to be condemned — especially when they dare to commit acts of violence in our midst to advance their hateful visions.
​

I'm not alone in seeing very small distinction between the two.

Maybe you should actually take the time to learn about them and you woudl know that this line is completely BS and the exact opposite of the very 'mission' on their website. You can continue to post ignorant BS, and I wil continue to ignore it.

You've created a BS image and keep using it.

 

[IUCrazy2]

They are not an internationally organized group. Each group run independently from each other although may coordinate for large events.

I don't necessarily agree with then, but IUCrazy's image of them is BS. That doesn't mean some groups aren't capable of using quite questionable methods at times, but the boogey man created by the right is a joke. They just needed something to fit their whataboutism.

Reality in the U.S. does not fit your fantasy. Google antifa violence and feel free to enlighten yourself. Again, your experience in the Czech Republic is not necessarily the same here in the U.S.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Maybe you should actually take the time to learn about them and you woudl know that this line is completely BS and the exact opposite of the very 'mission' on their website. You can continue to post ignorant BS, and I wil continue to ignore it.

You've created a BS image and keep using it.

That is not me, it is the Washington Post.

 

[T.M.P.]

C’mon man

What am I supposed to pretend because it was done under a vague level of plausible deniability.. I refuse.

Too many indications that it was and is being manufactured. Antifa a great example of propaganda and exaggerated created fear.

 

[MaxCoke]

Sanity. What comes easy to see to some is oblivious to the insane.

 

[Lucy01]

Sanity. What comes easy to see to some is oblivious to the insane.

Why don’t you disappear and never come back!

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think it would be much better if did not feel forced to accept Nazis as "your side's deplorables". I think it leads you down this crazy path of conflating Antifa with Stalinists all as a way to achieve some kind of crazy balance of deplorables. Of course Trump is himself the source of all this stupidity because, unlike every politician in both mainstream parties, he has decided to play footsie with literal Nazis. Trump's association with the GOP is an unfortunate disgrace which puts otherwise decent conservatives on their back heels in a defensive crouch. You like the tax cuts, you like the judges...it is good for you to remind yourself if not the rest of us that you denounce the truly deplorable crap that Trump continuously drops on all our doorsteps.

Only liberals think Nazis and the KKK are on the GOP or conservative side. You’ve advanced that fiction for decades. You actually believe it. Trump’s hamfisted tweets don’t change a damn thing. There is NOTHING conservative in either organization.

Oh and the duty to renounce you keep talking about is bullshit.

 

[hoosboot]

Only liberals think Nazis and the KKK are on the GOP or conservative side. You’ve advanced that fiction for decades. You actually believe it. Trump’s hamfisted tweets don’t change a damn thing. There is NOTHING conservative in either organization.

Oh and the duty to renounce you keep talking about is bullshit.

Well...liberals and Nazis and the KKK, but otherwise totally get your drift.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Only liberals think Nazis and the KKK are on the GOP or conservative side. You’ve advanced that fiction for decades. You actually believe it. Trump’s hamfisted tweets don’t change a damn thing. There is NOTHING conservative in either organization.

Oh and the duty to renounce you keep talking about is bullshit.

Ummm no. Trump’s election has emboldened the ne’er do wells and the pseudo-conservatives and the other fools. Mostly this includes the Klan and Nazi’s. You can call them non-conservative or whatever other name you want to call them, but they are entirely your issue.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Ummm no. Trump’s election has emboldened the ne’er do wells and the pseudo-conservatives and the other fools. Mostly this includes the Klan and Nazi’s. You can call them non-conservative or whatever other name you want to call them, but they are entirely your issue.

Well, no. They are not entirely or any part my issue. I or we can’t control idiots who are emboldened by somebody I voted for. Imputing their crap to me is what you do. It is BS and is a reason why politics is so disgusting and dysfunctional. That’s on you.

 

[hoosboot]

Well, no. They are not entirely or any part my issue. I or we can’t control idiots who are emboldened by somebody I voted for. Imputing their crap to me is what you do. It is BS and is a reason why politics is so disgusting and dysfunctional. That’s on you.

This dovetails perfectly with your "Peaceful Muslims need to police the radicals in their midst" position...oh, wait...no, it doesn't.

 

[MaxCoke]

"Lucy01, post: 2426054, member: 12172"]Why don’t you disappear and never come back![/QUOTE]

 

[Quix0te]

Nah, they are totally white supremacists. I do not support what they stand for, I am arguing they have a right to express that opinion.

Please try to get it into your head. I know who they are, but they are having a white civil rights rally, not a white supremacy rally. HG played the race card.

 

[cosmickid]

That is not me, it is the Washington Post.

It's published in the WAPO,but that's not quite the same as saying "It's the WAPO"...

In reality it's an OP-ED from Marc Thiessen, who is a member of American Enterprise (a Conservative think thank) and a former speech writer for Donald Rumsfield. You seemed to want to characterize it as the "liberal" WAPO characterizing Antifa as "Nazis",and that's simply not the case...

A more realistic appraisal from this snopes piece with comments from the Anti-Defamation League,as well as this insightful analysis from a reporter who has covered much of the violence when Nazis and Antifa clash...

"John Sepulvado, a reporter who has been covering far-right groups for Bay Area public radio station KQED, told us the violence at recent alt-right demonstrations has been used to recruit, and when “antifa” shows up to fight them it can play into their game plan. “They’re turning the traditional desire for objectivity by the media on its head,” he told us.

Citing a lyric from rapper Jay Z’s song “Takeover” that says, “A wise man told me don’t argue with fools, cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who,” Sepulvado told us the pattern of inciting violence at rallies from the alt-right has gone this way:

Announce an event that’s going to piss everyone who has common sense off, something so outrageous it’s going to piss 99 percent of the population off, then when someone gets on Twitter [and threatens them], send out a press release saying, “we can’t practice our free speech rights because of leftist violence.” Then show up anyway. They have canceled so many rallies that they showed up at anyway and still rallied. The “threat of leftist violence” means they need to wear body armor and bring weapons. If it’s an open carry state they’ll have [firearms]. If it’s not an open carry state they’ll bring firecrackers and sticks.

And then when someone… pushes them or spits on them, they’ll use that as an excuse to strike out. Then the leftists will strike out, and the media won’t know who’s who.

The important distinction, he said, is that “the leftists aren’t organizing the protests.” They’re just responding to them. Sepulvado added:

You know [the alt-right] is guiltiest when they say, “look at them, we’re not the only ones.” They’re not arguing whether the [car attack] was actually committed, they’re just trying to bring everyone down in the muck with them. This is like a bottom feeding monster trying to convince the world that dolphins are ugly creatures."

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/08/17/are-antifa-and-the-alt-right-equally-violent/

 

[cosmickid]

Please try to get it into your head. I know who they are, but they are having a white civil rights rally, not a white supremacy rally. HG played the race card.

Did you ever answer the question of WHY these folks (and apparently YOU) feel the need to rally in support of your Civil Rights (as a white man)? I think that's the question many of us here are perplexed about- who/what exactly is "threatening" your "civil rights"?

Are racist cops killing white men in inordinate numbers? Because I thought one of the reasons BLM was organized was to point out the difference in the way police treated unarmed white vs Black suspects.Are you guys now making the same claim in reverse?

 

[Bruce1]

Let me be clear, we should all be concerned when people take to the streets to advocate not just stupid but deeply evil ideas. We should all strongly recommend to others that they not participate in such an event and publicly advocate evil. But in America people have the right to free speech. So if people insist on advocating evil then I applaud those who would peacefully counterprotest against evil.

Careful, IU, the Constitution and equal rights have no place here. If you don’t like what somebody says it’s your right and obligations to do whatever it takes to shut them down.

“I know it wouldn't be legal, but I'd be perfectly fine with The National Park service denying their claim for a rally, based on historical context of what a group like that brings and who is a part of it.”

On the other hand we will support and stand with the rights people who call for killing policemen/women.

 

[IUCrazy2]

It's published in the WAPO,but that's not quite the same as saying "It's the WAPO"...

In reality it's an OP-ED from Marc Thiessen, who is a member of American Enterprise (a Conservative think thank) and a former speech writer for Donald Rumsfield. You seemed to want to characterize it as the "liberal" WAPO characterizing Antifa as "Nazis",and that's simply not the case...

A more realistic appraisal from this snopes piece with comments from the Anti-Defamation League,as well as this insightful analysis from a reporter who has covered much of the violence when Nazis and Antifa clash...

"John Sepulvado, a reporter who has been covering far-right groups for Bay Area public radio station KQED, told us the violence at recent alt-right demonstrations has been used to recruit, and when “antifa” shows up to fight them it can play into their game plan. “They’re turning the traditional desire for objectivity by the media on its head,” he told us.

Citing a lyric from rapper Jay Z’s song “Takeover” that says, “A wise man told me don’t argue with fools, cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who,” Sepulvado told us the pattern of inciting violence at rallies from the alt-right has gone this way:

Announce an event that’s going to piss everyone who has common sense off, something so outrageous it’s going to piss 99 percent of the population off, then when someone gets on Twitter [and threatens them], send out a press release saying, “we can’t practice our free speech rights because of leftist violence.” Then show up anyway. They have canceled so many rallies that they showed up at anyway and still rallied. The “threat of leftist violence” means they need to wear body armor and bring weapons. If it’s an open carry state they’ll have [firearms]. If it’s not an open carry state they’ll bring firecrackers and sticks.

And then when someone… pushes them or spits on them, they’ll use that as an excuse to strike out. Then the leftists will strike out, and the media won’t know who’s who.

The important distinction, he said, is that “the leftists aren’t organizing the protests.” They’re just responding to them. Sepulvado added:

You know [the alt-right] is guiltiest when they say, “look at them, we’re not the only ones.” They’re not arguing whether the [car attack] was actually committed, they’re just trying to bring everyone down in the muck with them. This is like a bottom feeding monster trying to convince the world that dolphins are ugly creatures."

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/08/17/are-antifa-and-the-alt-right-equally-violent/

I had several links to articles from the Atlantic and other news sources that backed my position. They were deleted, probably because I called TMP what he is. You apparently wish to join him. It is invincible ignorance on your part.

Your own link supports what I have been saying all along, you are just too dense to realize it.

 

[Thyrsis]

Ummm no. Trump’s election has emboldened the ne’er do wells and the pseudo-conservatives and the other fools. Mostly this includes the Klan and Nazi’s. You can call them non-conservative or whatever other name you want to call them, but they are entirely your issue.

Meanwhile, among other Republican presidential hopefuls ...

 

[IUCrazy2]

I will even break it down for you.

Announce an event that’s going to piss everyone who has common sense off, something so outrageous it’s going to piss 99 percent of the population off, then when someone gets on Twitter [and threatens them], send out a press release saying, “we can’t practice our free speech rights because of leftist violence.” Then show up anyway. They have canceled so many rallies that they showed up at anyway and still rallied. The “threat of leftist violence” means they need to wear body armor and bring weapons. If it’s an open carry state they’ll have [firearms]. If it’s not an open carry state they’ll bring firecrackers and sticks.

So what was the initial offense of the Nazis? They announce an event where they are going to share abhorrent views. So basically they are exercising their right to speech and assembly. We do not like their views but it is not a crime for them to hold them or to express them. As to them bringing things to defend themselves from leftist violence, this is kind of chicken and egg as I honestly do not know who threw the first proverbial punch, but there may be some clues....

And then when someone… pushes them or spits on them, they’ll use that as an excuse to strike out. Then the leftists will strike out, and the media won’t know who’s who.

So thes guys show up to yell their inanities wearing silly medieval cosplay the response from Antifa is not to point and laugh. No, their opinions are so vile that we must split on them and push them (both are battery by the way-spit on someone and push them for talking nonsense to you and see which one of you the police have an issue with) and then there is a violent response back from the Nazi guys. And then Antifa has to escalate and back and forth we go.

The important distinction, he said, is that “the leftists aren’t organizing the protests.” They’re just responding to them. Sepulvado added

Yes, it is important to note that the crime being committed here is that these people are daring to hold (abhorrent) views and are expressing them. This speech cannot be allowed to occur so we must react violently to stop that. You accept it because it is just a bunch of Nazis getting punched, what's the harm in that?

But what if it is the county GOP?

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

Since 1907, portland, oregon, has hosted an annual Rose Festival. Since 2007, the festival had included a parade down 82nd Avenue. Since 2013, the Republican Party of Multnomah County, which includes Portland, had taken part. This April, all of that changed.

In the days leading up to the planned parade, a group called the Direct Action Alliance declared, “Fascists plan to march through the streets,” and warned, “Nazis will not march through Portland unopposed.” The alliance said it didn’t object to the Multnomah GOP itself, but to “fascists” who planned to infiltrate its ranks. Yet it also denounced marchers with “Trump flags” and “red maga hats” who could “normalize support for an orange man who bragged about sexually harassing women and who is waging a war of hate, racism and prejudice.” A second group, Oregon Students Empowered, created a Facebook page called “Shut down fascism! No nazis in Portland!”

Next, the parade’s organizers received an anonymous email warning that if “Trump supporters” and others who promote “hateful rhetoric” marched, “we will have two hundred or more people rush into the parade … and drag and push those people out.” When Portland police said they lacked the resources to provide adequate security, the organizers canceled the parade.
​

No problem there right? I mean, wearing a MAGA hat obviously makes you the progeny of Hitler. And they get tacit support for this by people like you.

According to NYC Antifa, the group’s Twitter following nearly quadrupled in the first three weeks of January alone. (By summer, it exceeded 15,000.) Trump’s rise has also bred a new sympathy for antifa among some on the mainstream left. “Suddenly,” noted the antifa-aligned journal It’s Going Down, “anarchists and antifa, who have been demonized and sidelined by the wider Left have been hearing from liberals and Leftists, ‘you’ve been right all along.’ ” An article in The Nation argued that “to call Trumpism fascist” is to realize that it is “not well combated or contained by standard liberal appeals to reason.” The radical left, it said, offers “practical and serious responses in this political moment.”
​

It sure does. Violence.

Who else does Antifa consider to be fascists? Apparently transsexual anti-Marxists and College Republicans.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...b4e4bb76a3a_story.html?utm_term=.a09d02e7b047

Same article linked above, different pull quote.

Last weekend in Berkeley, Calif., a group of neo-communist antifa — “anti-fascist” — thugs attacked peaceful protesters at a “No to Marxism in America” rally, wielding sticks and pepper spray, and beating people with homemade shields that read (I kid you not) “No Hate.” The Post reports how one peaceful protester “was attacked by five black-clad antifa members, each windmilling kicks and punches into a man desperately trying to protect himself.” Members of the Berkeley College Republicans were then stalked by antifa goons who followed them to a gas station and demanded they “get the [expletive] out” of their car, warning, “We are real hungry for supremacists and there is more of us.”

The organizer of the anti-Marxism protest is not a white supremacist. Amber Cummings is a self-described “transsexual female who embraces diversity” and had announced on Facebook that “any racist groups like the KKK [and] Neo Nazis . . . are not welcome.” The protest was needed, Cummings said, because “Berkeley is a ground zero for the Marxist Movement.”
​

Who else is a fascist? Ben Shapiro.

http://www.newsweek.com/ben-shapiro-berkeley-no-violence-time-antifa-665388

No violence though as Berkeley finally stepped in with police force to keep people like this at bay:

The reality was somewhat different out in the chilly Northern California night. On the opposite side of the barricades, the Refuse Fascism protesters—of whom there appeared to be perhaps 200—continued to rail against the Trump administration, corporate capitalism and other varieties of injustice. But the speakers were unfocused, with one repeatedly resorting to a refrain of “**** all that shit” without elucidating his complaints.
​

So to bring this full circle. Free speech that a sizable group of people views as abhorrent can be battled with actual physical violence. What is actually abhorrent is completely at the discretion of the person who feels offended. Apply your logic to Pro-Choice Rally's and Gay Pride Marches and maybe you will start to get my point.

 

[iu_a_att]

Only liberals think Nazis and the KKK are on the GOP or conservative side. You’ve advanced that fiction for decades. You actually believe it. Trump’s hamfisted tweets don’t change a damn thing. There is NOTHING conservative in either organization.

Oh and the duty to renounce you keep talking about is bullshit.

Your first sentence is contradicted by IUCrazy's first post in this thread. Your second and third sentences are contradicted by the very post you cite. Your fourth sentence would be wrong even if the only hamfisted actions by Trump were his racist tweets. Because of Trump's overt racist policies, dogwhistles to the Nazis and Klan along with his "hamfisted" tweets and because of the many "conservatives" like you who support Trump your fifth sentence can only be maintained by nearly continuous renunciations of those organizations and Trump's racist actions and statements. But I don't recommend that you make the renunciations for the sake of liberals, I recommend you do it as a way to clarify and preserve your own understanding and thinking.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Only liberals think Nazis and the KKK are on the GOP or conservative side. You’ve advanced that fiction for decades. You actually believe it. Trump’s hamfisted tweets don’t change a damn thing. There is NOTHING conservative in either organization.

Oh and the duty to renounce you keep talking about is bullshit.

LMAO! David Dukkke disagrees with you

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

I will even break it down for you.



So what was the initial offense of the Nazis? They announce an event where they are going to share abhorrent views. So basically they are exercising their right to speech and assembly. We do not like their views but it is not a crime for them to hold them or to express them. As to them bringing things to defend themselves from leftist violence, this is kind of chicken and egg as I honestly do not know who threw the first proverbial punch, but there may be some clues....



So thes guys show up to yell their inanities wearing silly medieval cosplay the response from Antifa is not to point and laugh. No, their opinions are so vile that we must split on them and push them (both are battery by the way-spit on someone and push them for talking nonsense to you and see which one of you the police have an issue with) and then there is a violent response back from the Nazi guys. And then Antifa has to escalate and back and forth we go.



Yes, it is important to note that the crime being committed here is that these people are daring to hold (abhorrent) views and are expressing them. This speech cannot be allowed to occur so we must react violently to stop that. You accept it because it is just a bunch of Nazis getting punched, what's the harm in that?

But what if it is the county GOP?

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

Since 1907, portland, oregon, has hosted an annual Rose Festival. Since 2007, the festival had included a parade down 82nd Avenue. Since 2013, the Republican Party of Multnomah County, which includes Portland, had taken part. This April, all of that changed.

In the days leading up to the planned parade, a group called the Direct Action Alliance declared, “Fascists plan to march through the streets,” and warned, “Nazis will not march through Portland unopposed.” The alliance said it didn’t object to the Multnomah GOP itself, but to “fascists” who planned to infiltrate its ranks. Yet it also denounced marchers with “Trump flags” and “red maga hats” who could “normalize support for an orange man who bragged about sexually harassing women and who is waging a war of hate, racism and prejudice.” A second group, Oregon Students Empowered, created a Facebook page called “Shut down fascism! No nazis in Portland!”

Next, the parade’s organizers received an anonymous email warning that if “Trump supporters” and others who promote “hateful rhetoric” marched, “we will have two hundred or more people rush into the parade … and drag and push those people out.” When Portland police said they lacked the resources to provide adequate security, the organizers canceled the parade.
​

No problem there right? I mean, wearing a MAGA hat obviously makes you the progeny of Hitler. And they get tacit support for this by people like you.

According to NYC Antifa, the group’s Twitter following nearly quadrupled in the first three weeks of January alone. (By summer, it exceeded 15,000.) Trump’s rise has also bred a new sympathy for antifa among some on the mainstream left. “Suddenly,” noted the antifa-aligned journal It’s Going Down, “anarchists and antifa, who have been demonized and sidelined by the wider Left have been hearing from liberals and Leftists, ‘you’ve been right all along.’ ” An article in The Nation argued that “to call Trumpism fascist” is to realize that it is “not well combated or contained by standard liberal appeals to reason.” The radical left, it said, offers “practical and serious responses in this political moment.”
​

It sure does. Violence.

Who else does Antifa consider to be fascists? Apparently transsexual anti-Marxists and College Republicans.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...b4e4bb76a3a_story.html?utm_term=.a09d02e7b047

Same article linked above, different pull quote.

Last weekend in Berkeley, Calif., a group of neo-communist antifa — “anti-fascist” — thugs attacked peaceful protesters at a “No to Marxism in America” rally, wielding sticks and pepper spray, and beating people with homemade shields that read (I kid you not) “No Hate.” The Post reports how one peaceful protester “was attacked by five black-clad antifa members, each windmilling kicks and punches into a man desperately trying to protect himself.” Members of the Berkeley College Republicans were then stalked by antifa goons who followed them to a gas station and demanded they “get the [expletive] out” of their car, warning, “We are real hungry for supremacists and there is more of us.”

The organizer of the anti-Marxism protest is not a white supremacist. Amber Cummings is a self-described “transsexual female who embraces diversity” and had announced on Facebook that “any racist groups like the KKK [and] Neo Nazis . . . are not welcome.” The protest was needed, Cummings said, because “Berkeley is a ground zero for the Marxist Movement.”
​

Who else is a fascist? Ben Shapiro.

http://www.newsweek.com/ben-shapiro-berkeley-no-violence-time-antifa-665388

No violence though as Berkeley finally stepped in with police force to keep people like this at bay:

The reality was somewhat different out in the chilly Northern California night. On the opposite side of the barricades, the Refuse Fascism protesters—of whom there appeared to be perhaps 200—continued to rail against the Trump administration, corporate capitalism and other varieties of injustice. But the speakers were unfocused, with one repeatedly resorting to a refrain of “**** all that shit” without elucidating his complaints.
​

So to bring this full circle. Free speech that a sizable group of people views as abhorrent can be battled with actual physical violence. What is actually abhorrent is completely at the discretion of the person who feels offended. Apply your logic to Pro-Choice Rally's and Gay Pride Marches and maybe you will start to get my point.

“What was the initial offense of the Nazis?”

Dude, I’m surprised I haven’t seen that on a pickup truck bumper sticker, just below a rebel flag, and apposite a “Don’t Tread On Me” sticker.

So, besides being Nazis, what was their initial offense...

 

[CO. Hoosier]

But I don't recommend that you make the renunciations for the sake of liberals, I recommend you do it as a way to clarify and preserve your own understanding and thinking.

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? Do you think I need to engage in a catharsis of saying I reject KKK and racism to firm up my view of racism for my own good? Maybe for you. But not me. I have strong self awareness. I control what I believe without having to wear the tee shirt or carry the sign.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

LMAO! David Dukkke disagrees with you

So what? You disagree with me too. That puts you and David Duke in the same camp. And you two have a lot in common.

 

[IUCrazy2]

“What was the initial offense of the Nazis?”

Dude, I’m surprised I haven’t seen that on a pickup truck bumper sticker, just below a rebel flag, and apposite a “Don’t Tread On Me” sticker.

So, besides being Nazis, what was their initial offense...

Still an idiot I see. Back to ignore.

I do note though, repeatedly, that you guys go an awful long way to ignoring or supporting some down right fascistic tactics.

I am 100% comfortable in my opinions though.

Nazis bad.
Antifa (the type described in the multiple links I have provided, not the apparently girl scout version which exists in Europe per Zizkov) bad.
Using violence to silence speech (even that we disagree with and find abhorrent) bad.

I am comfortable in all 3 of those opinions. Most of you refuse to get past the first. In effect because many of you are not liberals. You are leftist authoritarians.

 

[Lucy01]

Still an idiot I see. Back to ignore.

I do note though, repeatedly, that you guys go an awful long way to ignoring or supporting some down right fascistic tactics.

I am 100% comfortable in my opinions though.

Nazis bad.
Antifa (the type described in the multiple links I have provided, not the apparently girl scout version which exists in Europe per Zizkov) bad.
Using violence to silence speech (even that we disagree with and find abhorrent) bad.

I am comfortable in all 3 of those opinions. Most of you refuse to get past the first. In effect because many of you are not liberals. You are leftist authoritarians.

I never put anyone on ignore because I might not agree with a lot of
what they say, But I like different points of view!

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

So what? You disagree with me too. That puts you and David Duke in the same camp. And you two have a lot in common.

LMAO

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Still an idiot I see. Back to ignore.

I do note though, repeatedly, that you guys go an awful long way to ignoring or supporting some down right fascistic tactics.

I am 100% comfortable in my opinions though.

Nazis bad.
Antifa (the type described in the multiple links I have provided, not the apparently girl scout version which exists in Europe per Zizkov) bad.
Using violence to silence speech (even that we disagree with and find abhorrent) bad.

I am comfortable in all 3 of those opinions. Most of you refuse to get past the first. In effect because many of you are not liberals. You are leftist authoritarians.

Keep digging

 

[wiede]

I know this blows your mind but I view it like I do the difference between the Soviets and the Nazis in WW2. The Soviets were actually on our side in that conflict and they helped us, but Stalin is said to have been responsible for around 20 million deaths.

Now he may have had less racist reasons for all those deaths, but he still presided over the killing of 20 million people. Is he as low on the degenerate scale as Hitler? Probably not. But in the scheme of things, he is still a shit bag.

Here’s what you are missing (I think):

Stalin would’ve existed without Hitler. In other words, Stalin’s actions/existence weren’t solely as a response to Hitler/racism/racist nationalism.

Replace Stalin with Antifa and Hitler with White Nationalists (WN), and you can see the fallacy of that line of thinking.

In short, here’s the error: Antifa exists SOLELY to combat racism/white nationalism. Which we ALL agree should be marganalized to the point of being irrelevant. If those things go away, then Antifa doesn’t exist.

In other words, one is a response to the other- and the other is incredibly vile and inhuman. Unlike your Stalin and Hitler example.

That being said, provided that the white nationalists are not inciting violence, WN’s should be allowed the right to free speech. As much as I don’t agree with any of it, they absolutely have a right to say it.

The problem since Trump has been president is that the WN’s/racists have become emboldened. And more aggressive. This, along with LOTS of other things, explain my disgust of all things Trump.

It’s a shame to see otherwise good folks get sucked into pure tribalism, where they still support a really bad guy like Trump because a few of their preferred policies are implemented, and a few more judges they like are appointed. Because a person with an R next to their name is ALWAYS better than a person with a D next to their name.

That’s selling your soul, for temporary things. Supporting Trump is supporting these vile things, simply because his identity and rise in politics is tied to these things. Without birtherism, and demonizing minorities, Trump isn’t president today. He repeatedly references “his base”- of which a substantial portion are either racist or have racist tendencies.

Put simply, WN’s/racists should be condemned by everyone. Period. Instead, Trump stokes this demographic, and their behavior is tolerated. I’ve been really saddened by the amount of his base that either tolerates or agrees with his overt racism. That’s a feature- not a bug- of his appeal.

And when there’s a response to that, false equivalencies are created to minimize his behavior. It’s like kicking a dog, and being called a horrible person for doing it. Even though the dog bit you first, and will continue to bite you if it’s around. (And no, I’m NOT advocating for violence. That’s never acceptable).

Hope all that made sense. It’s been a really long week.

PS- I do appreciate the discussion. I just have a hard time understanding how one can still support Trump, despite everything I’ve cited above. When Trump goes, and he will soon enough, you’ll be asking yourself if it was all worth it. I hope the answer is “no”- for your sake.