What to make of Bob Amsterdam?

[ribbont]

I recently listened to him on a podcast. He's a 70 year old liberal, Jewish attorney who was arrested by Putin and has been a champion of international human rights.

But in the podcast, his description of Ukraine, Zelenskyy, and it's efforts to suppress the UOC ( Ukrainian Orthodox Church) are alarming. The govt claims the UOC is affiliated with the ROC (Russian OC) a claim Amsterdam denies.

So I wonder what his end game is? What's his angle? Because if what his saying is true, it's a bad look for Ukraine and Zelenskyy. But why would he lie? He's not a Putin puppet, that's for sure. He's likely got plenty of money. IIRC, he might even be doing this pro bono. He's not a Trump lover as he's been at this UOC defense for over a year and has admittedly never voted for a Pub.

So I wonder what gives?

Robert Amsterdam - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Bob Amsterdam: How USAID Is Helping Zelensky Destroy Christianity With Fake Churches and Violence - The Tucker Carlson Show | iHeart

Donald Trump just called Zelensky a dictator. Human rights lawyer Bob Amsterdam has worked in Ukraine for the past couple of years and confirms that if anything, that’s an understatement. (00:00) The Situation Is Dire (03:28) Bob Amsterdam’s Fight to Defend the Orthodox Church From Zelensky...

www.iheart.com

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

I recently listened to him on a podcast. He's a 70 year old liberal, Jewish attorney who was arrested by Putin and has been a champion of international human rights.

But in the podcast, his description of Ukraine, Zelenskyy, and it's efforts to suppress the UOC ( Ukrainian Orthodox Church) are alarming. The govt claims the UOC is affiliated with the ROC (Russian OC) a claim Amsterdam denies.

So I wonder what his end game is? What's his angle? Because if what his saying is true, it's a bad look for Ukraine and Zelenskyy. But why would he lie? He's not a Putin puppet, that's for sure. He's likely got plenty of money. IIRC, he might even be doing this pro bono. He's not a Trump lover as he's been at this UOC defense for over a year and has admittedly never voted for a Pub.

So I wonder what gives?

Robert Amsterdam - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Bob Amsterdam: How USAID Is Helping Zelensky Destroy Christianity With Fake Churches and Violence - The Tucker Carlson Show | iHeart

Donald Trump just called Zelensky a dictator. Human rights lawyer Bob Amsterdam has worked in Ukraine for the past couple of years and confirms that if anything, that’s an understatement. (00:00) The Situation Is Dire (03:28) Bob Amsterdam’s Fight to Defend the Orthodox Church From Zelensky...

www.iheart.com

So, there are two different orthodox churches in Ukraine. The one Amsterdam represents is, in fact, affiliated with the Russian Orthodox Church, and anyone who tries to claim otherwise is lying. This does not mean that they are a tool of Russia or a threat to Ukraine, or should have their religious freedoms restricted in any way. But the UOC is, in fact, that portion of the church which is still part of the Moscow branch of the church, whereas the other Ukrainian church (Orthodox Church of Ukraine, or OCU) was granted full independence from Moscow sometime after the Crimean invasion.

 

[ribbont]

So, there are two different orthodox churches in Ukraine. The one Amsterdam represents is, in fact, affiliated with the Russian Orthodox Church, and anyone who tries to claim otherwise is lying. This does not mean that they are a tool of Russia or a threat to Ukraine, or should have their religious freedoms restricted in any way. But the UOC is, in fact, that portion of the church which is still part of the Moscow branch of the church, whereas the other Ukrainian church (Orthodox Church of Ukraine, or OCU) was granted full independence from Moscow sometime after the Crimean invasion.

Well, he addresses that tenous link.

"Well, let's be clear. It's the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. We are not part of the roc. We are. We share only a canonical link. Our church denounced the Invasion. Our church separated itself administratively 30 years ago, and every Ukrainian that's Orthodox has been baptized in our church. Five years ago, a new church was established in Ukraine by the Poroshenko administration with the active connivance of the United States government. The State Department of the United States was involved in the establishment of the church. I believe either USAID or some other organizations have funded this state church called the ocu. This is a basically kind of a CIA operation, if you will, to set up a church that would be completely free of what they viewed as the dangerous Putin influence. So you have our State Department violating our constitution, openly engaging in the destruction of religious freedom in a foreign country, doing things absolutely illegal under our constitution."

So, I wonder, what's his angle? Is he just opposed to the suppression of religion? Or is there more to it?

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

A hat, A broach, a pterodactyl?

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

So, there are two different orthodox churches in Ukraine. The one Amsterdam represents is, in fact, affiliated with the Russian Orthodox Church, and anyone who tries to claim otherwise is lying. This does not mean that they are a tool of Russia or a threat to Ukraine, or should have their religious freedoms restricted in any way. But the UOC is, in fact, that portion of the church which is still part of the Moscow branch of the church, whereas the other Ukrainian church (Orthodox Church of Ukraine, or OCU) was granted full independence from Moscow sometime after the Crimean invasion.

You're pathetic.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

Well, he addresses that tenous link.

"Well, let's be clear. It's the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. We are not part of the roc. We are. We share only a canonical link. Our church denounced the Invasion. Our church separated itself administratively 30 years ago, and every Ukrainian that's Orthodox has been baptized in our church. Five years ago, a new church was established in Ukraine by the Poroshenko administration with the active connivance of the United States government. The State Department of the United States was involved in the establishment of the church. I believe either USAID or some other organizations have funded this state church called the ocu. This is a basically kind of a CIA operation, if you will, to set up a church that would be completely free of what they viewed as the dangerous Putin influence. So you have our State Department violating our constitution, openly engaging in the destruction of religious freedom in a foreign country, doing things absolutely illegal under our constitution."

So, I wonder, what's his angle? Is he just opposed to the suppression of religion? Or is there more to it?

Yeah, he's a loon if that's his angle. The OCU isn't a CIA operation. The church had major fault lines after the first Russian invasion, and these two churches existing side by side was the result of that.

He can argue that the link is "tenuous" or "only" canonical (whatever that means), but the fact is, the UOC exists solely because some members of the church rejected independence from the Moscow patriarch. That's just reality, whether he wants to admit it or not.

Edit to add: to be clear, that doesn't mean the OCU reports directly to the ROC. Both sides disagree on just how strong the relationship is between the two, and it's quite possible that the Ukrainian government is very much in the wrong on this issue. But it's definitely a red flag that he's throwing up this CIA nonsense to deflect away from the reality of the situation.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

Yeah, he's a loon if that's his angle. The OCU isn't a CIA operation. The church had major fault lines after the first Russian invasion, and these two churches existing side by side was the result of that.

He can argue that the link is "tenuous" or "only" canonical (whatever that means), but the fact is, the UOC exists solely because some members of the church rejected independence from the Moscow patriarch. That's just reality, whether he wants to admit it or not.

Edit to add: to be clear, that doesn't mean the OCU reports directly to the ROC. Both sides disagree on just how strong the relationship is between the two, and it's quite possible that the Ukrainian government is very much in the wrong on this issue. But it's definitely a red flag that he's throwing up this CIA nonsense to deflect away from the reality of the situation.

For a good laugh, browse for the bio of Bob Amsterdam.

Then think about the known qualifications and legal career of Happy Goat.

Again, ****ing pitiful....

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Where does the Latvian Orthodox Church fit in this hierarchy?

Priest: Is there one aspect of the faith that you find particularly attractive?​

​

George: . . . .I think the hats. The hats convey that solemn religious look you want in a faith. Very pious.​

 

[Spartans9312]

Yeah, he's a loon if that's his angle. The OCU isn't a CIA operation. The church had major fault lines after the first Russian invasion, and these two churches existing side by side was the result of that.

He can argue that the link is "tenuous" or "only" canonical (whatever that means), but the fact is, the UOC exists solely because some members of the church rejected independence from the Moscow patriarch. That's just reality, whether he wants to admit it or not.

Edit to add: to be clear, that doesn't mean the OCU reports directly to the ROC. Both sides disagree on just how strong the relationship is between the two, and it's quite possible that the Ukrainian government is very much in the wrong on this issue. But it's definitely a red flag that he's throwing up this CIA nonsense to deflect away from the reality of the situation.

Which one is Eastern Orthodox?

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

Which one is Eastern Orthodox?

Both.

 

[ribbont]

Yeah, he's a loon if that's his angle. The OCU isn't a CIA operation. The church had major fault lines after the first Russian invasion, and these two churches existing side by side was the result of that.

He can argue that the link is "tenuous" or "only" canonical (whatever that means), but the fact is, the UOC exists solely because some members of the church rejected independence from the Moscow patriarch. That's just reality, whether he wants to admit it or not.

Edit to add: to be clear, that doesn't mean the OCU reports directly to the ROC. Both sides disagree on just how strong the relationship is between the two, and it's quite possible that the Ukrainian government is very much in the wrong on this issue. But it's definitely a red flag that he's throwing up this CIA nonsense to deflect away from the reality of the situation.

When you resort to calling some like him a "loon", you have zero credibility. I can tell you didn't read his bio, nor listened to anything he had to say.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

When you resort to calling some like him a "loon", you have zero credibility. I can tell you didn't read his bio, nor listened to anything he had to say.

If he thinks the church is a CIA operation, he's a loon. Don't need to do a deep dive to understand that.

 

[Spartans9312]

Both.

So what’s the difference from a theological perspective? If it’s nothing then why was the other formed?

 

[ribbont]

If he thinks the church is a CIA operation, he's a loon. Don't need to do a deep dive to understand that.

Maybe you should do a deep dive. I am betting he's just a wee bit smarter and much more informed than you. I am currently reading the white paper issued by his law firm.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

So what’s the difference from a theological perspective? If it’s nothing then why was the other formed?

As far as I know the theology is the same. It's purely a matter of whether or not one believes the Ukrainian church should be subordinate to the bishop of Moscow. But that's a bit above my pay grade so there might be more to it I'm unaware of.

BTW in this case subordinate means literally what it says: it means the bishop of Moscow has the authority to ordain priests and consecrate bishops in Ukraine. It doesn't necessarily imply the bishop of Moscow can issue orders that the Ukrainian church is obliged to follow. I think that's what the Kyiv government claims/fears, but I don't know it's actually true. Orthodox churches are highly independent by nature.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

Maybe you should do a deep dive. I am betting he's just a wee bit smarter and much more informed than you. I am currently reading the white paper issued by his law firm.

He may very well be smarter than me, but the OCU is not a CIA operation. I'm quite confident of that. Only a loon thinks it is.

 

[ribbont]

He may very well be smarter than me, but the OCU is not a CIA operation. I'm quite confident of that. Only a loon thinks it is.

You don't know anything. And he may not either. But you are more likely to be the loon than him.

"We've studied it, we have met with people at high levels of the U.S. government who confirmed for me that this was a U.S. government operation. And we have done everything we could, but we have walked into a wall of Ukrainian propaganda inside Washington," the lawyer said.

So either this reputable lawyer is totally lying or you have met with people at high levels of the US govt who confirmed to you that it was not a US govt operation. I'm guessing you don't know anybody.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

You don't know anything. And he may not either. But you are more likely to be the loon than him.

"We've studied it, we have met with people at high levels of the U.S. government who confirmed for me that this was a U.S. government operation. And we have done everything we could, but we have walked into a wall of Ukrainian propaganda inside Washington," the lawyer said.

So either this reputable lawyer is totally lying or you have met with people at high levels of the US govt who confirmed to you that it was not a US govt operation. I'm guessing you don't know anybody.

I think Bob Amsterdam is advocating for his client. But you have to be one helluva sucker to think the CIA orchestrated a schism in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

 

[ribbont]

I think Bob Amsterdam is advocating for his client. But you have to be one helluva sucker to think the CIA orchestrated a schism in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I appreciate your feedback but you have to be one helluva moron to totally dismiss the possibility the US, through the CIA or USAID, could have had a hand in this religious purge.

BTW - canonical means they follow the traditions, procedures, or way of worshipping. Like how the Global UMC follows many of the same ways of worshipping of the UMC, but is no longer affiliated with it. From my research, UOC follows the same canons, of the ROC, but has been separate since 1990.