If risk is liability that's an easy fix. And costs should be subsidized. Again we're kicking around a 3.5 trillion dollar stimulus. You want stimulus eradicate Covid
Ivermectin a promising drug...
- Thread starter ribbont
- Start date
The wife isn't overweight and didn't play football or choose to lose all the cartilage in her knees. She had almost become an invalid.
The biggest problem isn't space, it is help. It is hard to hire and train people quickly. We started noticing a nursing shortage in 1998. It kept getting worse. People aren't entering the field in numbers we need. One can't just go out and hire anyone to come in and work in an ICU. It takes time, and money, to hire and train them. And then I suspect, I haven't googled it, ICU work isn't something most want to do (we have medical people here, is ICU easy or hard to recruit for).
Registered nurses are a major segment of the essential personnel in the health care system. As a result, the lack of enough professionals has deeply affected hospitals since 1998.
So they've been dealing with this problem for over 20 years, I don't know why the last 6 months would result in a magical fix.
Yes, they might have been able to build new buildings (probably not real buildings but temp structures). But had they done so and 90% of Americans decided to get vaccinated, some in congress would be demanding hearings as to why hospitals wasted all that money.
Again, it isn't just four people. Idaho has had 2400 deaths. If 2400 Idohans died in school bus accidents over the last year, do you think there would be school buses on the road?
Britain did a study, 2.3% of those infected with Delta required hospitalization. Idaho is 2 million people. Assume 65% unvaccinated, that is 1.3 million. At 2.3%, that is 29,900 people hospitalized.
Yes, we need solutions. The easiest possible solution to avoid that is vaccination but for some reason people want to do anything but that. People want not to be vaccinated, want schools to be open and everything else open with no masking. So I guess Idahoans want 29,900 people hospitalized.
In the Fifth Risk, in a segment on tornados, it comes up most people who don't take shelter because they don't believe it will happen to them. They have excuses, hills or rivers nearby that block tornados make them safe, or Indian burial grounds, or on the east side of a city. None of that really blocks tornadoes. But some people just don't think bad things can happen to them so they don't take shelter.
That is where we are with vaccinations. The people not getting vaccinated just don't believe bad things can happen to them. It's a conspiracy and not real. Plagues can't happen to truly religious people, their raw physical prowess will save them, whatever. It isn't any of those things, they think they live an enchanted life and a virus, any virus, will never happen to them.
this is all absolutely true. but it's just highlighting the issue. not discussing a solution marv. again when 4 people enter a covid icu and the headline is IDAHO HOSPITALS ARE OVERWHELMED for the entire country to see and read it has consequences, myriad consequences, on all of us. so we need to work on solutions. virtual treatment. licensing waivers for borders. indemnifications. immunity. whateverThe biggest problem isn't space, it is help. It is hard to hire and train people quickly. We started noticing a nursing shortage in 1998. It kept getting worse. People aren't entering the field in numbers we need. One can't just go out and hire anyone to come in and work in an ICU. It takes time, and money, to hire and train them. And then I suspect, I haven't googled it, ICU work isn't something most want to do (we have medical people here, is ICU easy or hard to recruit for).
Registered nurses are a major segment of the essential personnel in the health care system. As a result, the lack of enough professionals has deeply affected hospitals since 1998.
So they've been dealing with this problem for over 20 years, I don't know why the last 6 months would result in a magical fix.
Yes, they might have been able to build new buildings (probably not real buildings but temp structures). But had they done so and 90% of Americans decided to get vaccinated, some in congress would be demanding hearings as to why hospitals wasted all that money.
A simple “they have done nothing” would have sufficed. I am well aware of the challenges, none of which have there been any real attempts to overcome. Not sure why you say 6 mos., we’ve had much longer than that…The biggest problem isn't space, it is help. It is hard to hire and train people quickly. We started noticing a nursing shortage in 1998. It kept getting worse. People aren't entering the field in numbers we need. One can't just go out and hire anyone to come in and work in an ICU. It takes time, and money, to hire and train them. And then I suspect, I haven't googled it, ICU work isn't something most want to do (we have medical people here, is ICU easy or hard to recruit for).
Registered nurses are a major segment of the essential personnel in the health care system. As a result, the lack of enough professionals has deeply affected hospitals since 1998.
So they've been dealing with this problem for over 20 years, I don't know why the last 6 months would result in a magical fix.
Yes, they might have been able to build new buildings (probably not real buildings but temp structures). But had they done so and 90% of Americans decided to get vaccinated, some in congress would be demanding hearings as to why hospitals wasted all that money.
in the article it is literally single digits to dozens of people that can overwhelm an entire community. 5 people can overwhelm a community of 300,000. they have 36 icu beds for 300,000 people. if htey are already at 70% capacity a few covid cases kicks them over the limit. what did i say it's like 0.0075 percent of the community in an icu with covid. you keep trying to equate to tornados and busses etc. it's apples to oranges. icu beds are what we're talking about as the measure.
as for vaccinations i totally agree with you, obviously
I had interesting text from someone in the local medical field this morning. They’re wondering why they’re seeing very few Amish and Mennonites in local doctors offices and the local hospital being treated for Covid. They make up a high percentage of the community.
They wondered if they’re treating themselves. 😂
Or maybe they all had it last time around? It was in the Amish community in a big way.
We had more than 6 months but there was an expectation that people would get the vaccine. So far, in America, we could easily handle the ICU and hospital cases of the vaccinated. Easily handle them.
But even with more than 6 months, we've seen the nursing shortage coming for 23 years now. What could be done in 16 months that weren't done in the first 250 months or so?
Many insurance plans have virtual treatments already. They work great until one needs to be hospitalized. As to opening the borders for more RNs, I have no issue. Let's see how many agree to bring in outsiders. I don't know how immunity impacts nurses, are lawsuits a major drawback to nurses?
I am sure you've read stories of ER nurses talking about the issues with COVID. Burnout is real. Here is just a single state, Georgia had 31,000 RN jobs available in 2019. That number is up to 37,000.
COVID-19 pandemic increases nursing shortage in Georgia, leads to veteran nurses leaving workforce
One registered nurse and veteran expert told 11Alive burnout amongst nurses is the worst he has seen in his 35-year career.
www.11alive.com
Horton said in January 2019, industry numbers showed there were more than 31,000 registered nursing positions to be filled around the state. The latest figure showed there were more than 37,000 openings.
...
"I've never seen anything like this. I have friends who work in urgent care and usually at this time of the year, they see 30 patients a day now they're seeing 130 and one nurse practitioner running an urgent care that's next to impossible to do," she said.
That article mentions organizations trying to get nurses leaving to just work a shift a week, and that helps. Obviously, more pay would probably help, but I suspect it is hard to do that and keep in insurance contracts reimbursement. Up and down the line, I think the medical community believed the vaccine would solve the problem.
I would be interested to hear from medical people, my guess is that critical care isn't a field that attracts people easily. It seems one needs a specific personality to want to deal with life or death on a daily basis.
i'm not a medical person and only guessing based on articles i read about innovations to address covid care expansion. implicit in all of it is that care givers will have to treat more at one time than they are accustomed to and the care won't be up to the standards perhaps we are all used to.Many insurance plans have virtual treatments already. They work great until one needs to be hospitalized. As to opening the borders for more RNs, I have no issue. Let's see how many agree to bring in outsiders. I don't know how immunity impacts nurses, are lawsuits a major drawback to nurses?
I am sure you've read stories of ER nurses talking about the issues with COVID. Burnout is real. Here is just a single state, Georgia had 31,000 RN jobs available in 2019. That number is up to 37,000.
COVID-19 pandemic increases nursing shortage in Georgia, leads to veteran nurses leaving workforce
One registered nurse and veteran expert told 11Alive burnout amongst nurses is the worst he has seen in his 35-year career.
Horton said in January 2019, industry numbers showed there were more than 31,000 registered nursing positions to be filled around the state. The latest figure showed there were more than 37,000 openings...."I've never seen anything like this. I have friends who work in urgent care and usually at this time of the year, they see 30 patients a day now they're seeing 130 and one nurse practitioner running an urgent care that's next to impossible to do," she said.That article mentions organizations trying to get nurses leaving to just work a shift a week, and that helps. Obviously, more pay would probably help, but I suspect it is hard to do that and keep in insurance contracts reimbursement.
Up and down the line, I think the medical community believed the vaccine would solve the problem.
I would be interested to hear from medical people, my guess is that critical care isn't a field that attracts people easily. It seems one needs a specific personality to want to deal with life or death on a daily basis.
as for medical malpractice the hospitals cover the nurses if they're sued for med mal. the physicians carry their own, separate med mal insurance.
Yes it rampaged though the community. Maybe herd immunity worked?
Targeted Covid care & personnel should have been pursued. Not to mention that the notion that if we on this board can’t come up with a solution, there isn’t one, is preposterous.Many insurance plans have virtual treatments already. They work great until one needs to be hospitalized. As to opening the borders for more RNs, I have no issue. Let's see how many agree to bring in outsiders. I don't know how immunity impacts nurses, are lawsuits a major drawback to nurses?
I am sure you've read stories of ER nurses talking about the issues with COVID. Burnout is real. Here is just a single state, Georgia had 31,000 RN jobs available in 2019. That number is up to 37,000.
COVID-19 pandemic increases nursing shortage in Georgia, leads to veteran nurses leaving workforce
One registered nurse and veteran expert told 11Alive burnout amongst nurses is the worst he has seen in his 35-year career.
Horton said in January 2019, industry numbers showed there were more than 31,000 registered nursing positions to be filled around the state. The latest figure showed there were more than 37,000 openings...."I've never seen anything like this. I have friends who work in urgent care and usually at this time of the year, they see 30 patients a day now they're seeing 130 and one nurse practitioner running an urgent care that's next to impossible to do," she said.That article mentions organizations trying to get nurses leaving to just work a shift a week, and that helps. Obviously, more pay would probably help, but I suspect it is hard to do that and keep in insurance contracts reimbursement.
Up and down the line, I think the medical community believed the vaccine would solve the problem.
I would be interested to hear from medical people, my guess is that critical care isn't a field that attracts people easily. It seems one needs a specific personality to want to deal with life or death on a daily basis.
I certainly agree with that last sentence. In fact, I'd say the solution is beyond this board as few of us are experts in any related field. Our plethora of lawyers are certainly useless in a medical emergency unless an ambulance needs chased.
But there were 31,000 RNs short in Georgia in 2019. Even the people in the related fields were failing at solutions before COVID came. Now with necessity being the mother of invention, things might have changed. But it doesn't always work out that way. Wildfires out west are getting worse and the number of people wanting to be smokejumpers has declined. Sometimes there aren't solutions or the solutions are so obscure it takes a long time to find them.
So you contend that there have been adequate efforts to address that have just come up empty, or solutions that haven’t panned out?
That is it, but that adds to the stress. I saw a Bloomington restaurant closed one day this week for the day, they didn't have enough people show up to work and the management said that their options were to close or stay open and have their employees completely stressed out. So they chose to close. That isn't as good of an option for hospitals. So treating more and delivering less good care probably results in more people leaving.
Actually, I contend they didn't think there was going to be a wave this summer because the vaccination would solve it. Given the numbers hospitalized in the US, vaccinated vs unvaccinated, we wouldn't be having a problem if vaccination rates were much higher.
The rate of hospitalization among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 was effectively zero in recent weeks in California, Delaware, D.C., Indiana, New Jersey, New Mexico, Vermont, and Virginia.
It was 0.06 percent in Arkansas, meaning over 99 percent of hospitalizations were unvaccinated.
Over 95 percent of those hospitalized in Alaska and 99.93 percent in New Jersey were not yet fully vaccinated either.
Coronavirus (COVID-19) Everything You Need to Know | Healthline
Live news & updates on the Coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak
www.healthline.com
There are probably ways hospitals could quickly attract emergency nurses, people given training for very specific tasks and those tasks only, to help reduce the load on RNs. So yes, something like that might have been implemented. But of course there would be a cost to that, and I bet hospitals didn't want to pay it given they were expecting vaccinations to solve the problem. Once COVID came back, having RNs take time to train people becomes hard. The time to do it would have been May, when we were all celebrating victory over COVID. I know we aren't experts, but was there a single person here in May that said "Covid will be back come August, just wait and see"? I don't recall any of us or any of the experts saying that.
You realize those restaurant issues aren’t Covid but just not enough employees?
You also realize hospitals lost nurses with the vaccine requirement?
My first cousin is a nursing supervisor in the Orlando area for Advent Health and she has lamented about antivax sentiment in her nursing ranks, some quitting to avoid vaccination, yet others having burnout due to COVID overwork. It is a bizarre combination. She is of course trying to cajole them into attempting to learn the truth rather than the rumors. A surprising number of medical professionals are far removed from research understanding and they really buy into lots of crappy info, as if they were a DANC-like partisan vegetable.
Incredibly short sighted given they had little solid info to indicate the success rate of vaccination against variants, or to assume that even if everyone chose to be vaccinated, that it would happen quickly enough. & on & on.Actually, I contend they didn't think there was going to be a wave this summer because the vaccination would solve it. Given the numbers hospitalized in the US, vaccinated vs unvaccinated, we wouldn't be having a problem if vaccination rates were much higher.
The rate of hospitalization among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 was effectively zero in recent weeks in California, Delaware, D.C., Indiana, New Jersey, New Mexico, Vermont, and Virginia.It was 0.06 percent in Arkansas, meaning over 99 percent of hospitalizations were unvaccinated.Over 95 percent of those hospitalized in Alaska and 99.93 percent in New Jersey were not yet fully vaccinated either.
Coronavirus (COVID-19) Everything You Need to Know | Healthline
Live news & updates on the Coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak
There are probably ways hospitals could quickly attract emergency nurses, people given training for very specific tasks and those tasks only, to help reduce the load on RNs. So yes, something like that might have been implemented. But of course there would be a cost to that, and I bet hospitals didn't want to pay it given they were expecting vaccinations to solve the problem. Once COVID came back, having RNs take time to train people becomes hard. The time to do it would have been May, when we were all celebrating victory over COVID. I know we aren't experts, but was there a single person here in May that said "Covid will be back come August, just wait and see"? I don't recall any of us or any of the experts saying that.
You have to remember everyone that’s anti vax don’t have to be partisan vegetables.
I know a nurse in late 30s with a young son. He’s paraplegic from a vaccine mishap. She’s ardent anti vaccine. She’s not a Trumpster, rube or hillbilly. She’s educated and believes what she believes based on everything she’s learned from what happened to her son.
The Amish that I know in Nappanee used Ivermectin. That is where I first heard it being used successfully for Covid.
The problem with that is you gotta keep on using it. Once you quit, you're back to ground zero.
My IT contractor’s mother was extremely ill with Covid. Last Tuesday the family could hardly get her to get up to use the restroom and she refused to go to the hospital. They were afraid she was going to die. They got an ivermectin prescription late Tuesday afternoon. The dosage was 18 milligrams per day. By Wednesday afternoon she was out of bed and showered. Today she’s Covid free and well. You will never convince her or her two sons that ivermectin didn’t cure her.
I recently read something similar in a medical journal article. Pretty sure it was in this one:
Why are you against a possible treatment for covid? Especially an FDA approved medication.
It wasn't presented as a "possible" treatment. It was presented as a miracle cure, supposedly curing someone at home with minimal care in either 1 or 8 days depending which Tuesday and Wednesday were meant. No testing or medical details were given and the story is entirely second or third hand.
"Love this, with one exception. Trump super ramped ventilator prodcution, hospital beds and supplies. Used gov resources to build emergency facilities including an entire war time ship, all while managing around the FDA bureaucracies for a vax. Impossible to say Trump did nothing,"
The problem with all of this is we KNOW that all of those pandemic preparation procedures (ventilators, masks, supplies), etc were on a schedule from Bush/Obama that was slowed/halted for the first 3 yrs of the Trump Admin. Just like Trump cutting the budget for the CDC epidemiologist embedded in China position that was in place from around 2007- to the summer of 2019, when Trump cut the funding...
The outgoing Obama Admin (Susan Rice) briefed the incoming Trump Admin on pandemic preparedness. We are not talking about a crisis that Trump inherited in his first term and did not have an oppty to prepare for. We are talking about Trump's conscious decision to divert funds that both Bush and Obama had designed for pandemic preparedness to his pet project- the Wall.
That is why Trump had to ramp up the production of ventilators, masks, supplies to deal with a crisis in the 3rd year of his presidency. It's a little myopic to praise Trump for his efforts to rectify a mess that he was largely responsible for in the first place.
I realize that at various times Trump tried to blame Obama, and some fell for it. But like most stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth, it's a lie. Not only that but prior to covid, Trump actually used the argument that Obama had left the cupboard stacked to justify his desired diversion of funds or cuts to any part of the HHS budget that did not equate to building his wall...
I can provide you with the links discussing those budget shifts if necessary. But this provides basic details on the degree of pandemic response materials Trump inherited in 2016, and the cuts he made which halted progress and left us behind. Susan Rice has discussed her involvement in those briefings, and her (unsuccessful) attempts to convince the incoming Trump Admin of the vital need not to let preparedness slip.
Rolling Stone Timeline: Coronavirus in America
How the Trump administration failed to protect America, a chronicle of missed opportunities, denials and deception
www.rollingstone.com
"Love this, with one exception. Trump super ramped ventilator prodcution, hospital beds and supplies. Used gov resources to build emergency facilities including an entire war time ship, all while managing around the FDA bureaucracies for a vax. Impossible to say Trump did nothing,"
The problem with all of this is we KNOW that all of those pandemic preparation procedures (ventilators, masks, supplies), etc were on a schedule from Bush/Obama that was slowed/halted for the first 3 yrs of the Trump Admin. Just like Trump cutting the budget for the CDC epidemiologist embedded in China position that was in place from around 2007- to the summer of 2019, when Trump cut the funding...
The outgoing Obama Admin (Susan Rice) briefed the incoming Trump Admin on pandemic preparedness. We are not talking about a crisis that Trump inherited in his first term and did not have an oppty to prepare for. We are talking about Trump's conscious decision to divert funds that both Bush and Obama had designed for pandemic preparedness to his pet project- the Wall.
That is why Trump had to ramp up the production of ventilators, masks, supplies to deal with a crisis in the 3rd year of his presidency. It's a little myopic to praise Trump for his efforts to rectify a mess that he was largely responsible for in the first place.
I realize that at various times Trump tried to blame Obama, and some fell for it. But like most stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth, it's a lie. Not only that but prior to covid, Trump actually used the argument that Obama had left the cupboard stacked to justify his desired diversion of funds or cuts to any part of the HHS budget that did not equate to building his wall...
I can provide you with the links discussing those budget shifts if necessary. But this provides basic details on the degree of pandemic response materials Trump inherited in 2016, and the cuts he made which halted progress and left us behind. Susan Rice has discussed her involvement in those briefings, and her (unsuccessful) attempts to convince the incoming Trump Admin of the vital need not to let preparedness slip.
Rolling Stone Timeline: Coronavirus in America
How the Trump administration failed to protect America, a chronicle of missed opportunities, denials and deception
Is that the same Rolling Stone that just printed a completely false story about Oklahoma hospitals?
Some Americans have been taken in by the same people who were behind the push to use Ivermectin in Brazil.
"Brazilians used to spend around $30 a head on what they called the "kit COVID."
It was a mix of vitamins and other pills that President Jair Bolsonaro touted as early treatments for COVID-19, well before vaccines became widely available to prevent and minimize coronavirus infections.
Among the "kit" drugs were the malaria pill hydroxychloroquine and the antiparasitic tablet ivermectin.
Brazilian authorities even at one point launched an app, called TrateCov, ("TreatCov[id]" in English) which recommended the same seven "kit" drugs to all its users. (The evidence base for that protocol leaned heavily on data from Dr. Flávio Cadegiani, who's now a member of the FLCCC, a US-based ivermectin propaganda machine.)"
Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say
One ICU doctor said the US should take note: "We Brazilians had to learn in the hardest way that ivermectin didn't work."
www.businessinsider.com
Brazil was treating covid with Ivermectin dating back to the summer of 2020. In fact Bolsonaro was pushing it so heavily that entire cities were basically giving it to people for free, including some who had it administered in hospitals without their knowledge.
A lot of this was before vaccines, which resulted in large numbers of people who had been taking Ivermectin filling up ICUs. People falsely believed they were protected and didn't need masks, and later were reluctant to get the vaccine. As a result, Brazil trails only the US in terms of covid deaths, and the same mayors and officials who touted Ivermectin as a "miracle drug" have scrapped any promotion of Ivermectin and are urging people to get the vaccine...
4 weeks ago I tested positive for Covid, I started a z-pac and ivermectin. I had a cough and a fever of 101 that was on Sunday and by Wednesday my fever was gone and no aches or pains. Had a lingering cough for a week! I am symptom-free today! So I know what ivermectin can do.
And that pesky tape worm is gone. You will eat less now also, 2'fer win.
I was being serious, it's a 2'fer win! And you know that belly you've developed is probably that dang worm.
