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Denying Trump a second term could come at an unimaginable cost

We presented him with a feckless senile POTUS who gave Putin what he wanted in energy and who showed a willingness to ignore military advice among other things. We also gave him a Secretary of State who wilted in his very first meeting with the Chinese. In other words, he is looking at the Keystone cops.
Dave Chapelle on COH:

 
What do you think it take For Putin to target and obliterate the governmental infrastructure in Kyiv? Given Austin’s and Pelosi’s remarks, what does he have to lose at this point?
If Putin is not insane he has everything to lose and nothing to gain by obliterating Kyiv.

If Putin is insane, he’s insane.

What you seem to be missing here is that no one has ever stood up to Putin the way Biden and his associates have stood up to him.

When you said Putin has gone far beyond the land bridge, you were dead wrong. Putin still doesn’t have that land bridge and the Ukrainian still haven’t conceded it.

Putin has lost the war so far, he’s lost credibility in the world (if he still had any to lose), and the world has discovered how pitiful his army really is. He has also created calamitous prospects for his nation’s economy. Russia is at this time suffering massive brain drain. The smarter any given Russian is the more he realizes all this.

Currently Putin is desperately trying to secure a semblance of victory by May 9 for political reasons. We’ll see what he does if he fails at that. He’s a smart guy and he knows that he has totally ****ed this war up. He knows full well that he can only pretend to have a victory in all this. He knows he needs to end this war as soon as possible. And he knows that nuclear weapons are not an option.
 
Nah he's opportunistic and unhinged. Good riddance. US getting involved in Ukraine with forces is asinine
I get it. You don't like him. No one on the far right does. He voted to impeach and he's on the Jan 6 Select Committee.

But you need some new adjectives. Opportunistic? His opposition to Trump cost him his House seat. And "opportunistic" implies a lack of morals and/or principles. That's hardly Kinzinger.
 
Here is a broader historical treatment of the same subject:

Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin John J. Mearsheimer According to the prevailing wisdom in the West, the Ukraine crisis can be blamed almost entirely on Russian aggression. Russian President Vladimir Putin, the argument goes, annexed Crimea out of a long-standing desire to resuscitate the Soviet empire, and he may eventually go after the rest of Ukraine, as well as other countries in eastern Europe. In this view, the ouster of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 merely provided a pretext for Putin’s decision to order Russian forces to seize part of Ukraine. But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West. At the same time, the EU’s expansion eastward and the West’s backing of the pro-democracy movement in Ukraine—beginning with the Orange Revolution in 2004—were critical elements, too. Since the mid1990s, Russian leaders have adamantly opposed NATO enlargement and in recent years, they have made it clear that they would not stand by while their strategically important neighbor turned into a Western bastion. For Putin, the illegal overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected and pro-Russian president—which he rightly labeled a “coup”—was the )nal straw. He responded by taking Crimea, a peninsula he feared would host a NATO naval base, and working to destabilize Ukraine until it abandoned its e*orts to join the West. Putin’s pushback should have come as no surprise. After all, the West had been moving into Russia’s backyard and threatening its core John J. Mearsheimer 2 FOREIGN AFFAIRS strategic interests, a point Putin made emphatically and repeatedly. Elites in the United States and Europe have been blindsided by events only because they subscribe to a 0awed view of international politics. They tend to believe that the logic of realism holds little relevance in the twenty-)rst century and that Europe can be kept whole and free on the basis of such liberal principles as the rule of law, economic interdependence, and democracy. But this grand scheme went awry in Ukraine. The crisis there shows that realpolitik remains relevant—and states that ignore it do so at their own peril. U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border. Now that the consequences have been laid bare, it would be an even greater mistake to continue this misbegotten policy. THE WESTERN AFFRONT As the Cold War came to a close, Soviet leaders preferred that U.S. forces remain in Europe and NATO stay intact, an arrangement they thought would keep a reuni)ed Germany paci)ed. But they and their Russian successors did not want NATO to grow any larger and assumed that Western diplomats understood their concerns. The Clinton administration evidently thought otherwise, and in the mid-1990s, it began pushing for NATO to expand. The )rst round of enlargement took place in 1999 and brought in the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland. The second occurred in 2004; it included Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia. Moscow complained bitterly from the start. During NATO’s 1995 bombing campaign against the Bosnian Serbs, for example, Russian President Boris Yeltsin said, “This is the )rst sign of what could happen when NATO comes right up to the Russian Federation’s borders. . . . The 0ame of war could burst out across the whole of Europe.” But the Russians were too weak at the time to derail NATO’s eastward movement—which, at any rate, did not look so threatening, since none of the new members shared a border with Russia, save for the tiny Baltic countries. Then NATO began looking further east. At its April 2008 summit in Bucharest, the alliance considered admitting Georgia and Ukraine. The George W. Bush administration supported doing so, but France and Germany opposed the move for fear that it would unduly antagonize Russia. In the end, NATO’s members reached a compromise: the Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 3 alliance did not begin the formal process leading to membership, but it issued a statement endorsing the aspirations of Georgia and Ukraine and boldly declaring, “These countries will become members of NATO.” Moscow, however, did not see the outcome as much of a compromise. Alexander Grushko, then Russia’s deputy foreign minister, said, “Georgia’s and Ukraine’s membership in the alliance is a huge strategic mistake which would have most serious consequences for pan-European security.” Putin maintained that admitting those two countries to NATO would represent a “direct threat” to Russia. One Russian newspaper reported that Putin, while speaking with Bush, “very transparently hinted that if Ukraine was accepted into NATO, it would cease to exist.” Russia’s invasion of Georgia in August 2008 should have dispelled any remaining doubts about Putin’s determination to prevent Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who was deeply committed to bringing his country into NATO, had decided in the summer of 2008 to reincorporate two separatist regions, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. But Putin sought to keep Georgia weak and divided—and out of NATO. After )ghting broke out between the Georgian government and South Ossetian separatists, Russian forces took control of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Moscow had made its point. Yet despite this clear warning, NATO never publicly abandoned its goal of bringing Georgia and Ukraine into the alliance. And NATO expansion continued marching forward, with Albania and Croatia becoming members in 2009. The EU, too, has been marching eastward. In May 2008, it unveiled its Eastern Partnership initiative, a program to foster prosperity in such countries as Ukraine and integrate them into the EU economy. Not surprisingly, Russian leaders view the plan as hostile to their country’s interests. This past February, before Yanukovych was forced from o2ce, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov accused the EU of trying to create a “sphere of in0uence” in eastern Europe. In the eyes of Russian leaders, EU expansion is a stalking horse for NATO expansion. The West’s )nal tool for peeling Kiev away from Moscow has been U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border. John J. Mearsheimer 4 FOREIGN AFFAIRS its e*orts to spread Western values and promote democracy in Ukraine and other post-Soviet states, a plan that often entails funding proWestern individuals and organizations. Victoria Nuland, the U.S. assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian a*airs, estimated in December 2013 that the United States had invested more than $5 billion since 1991 to help Ukraine achieve “the future it deserves.” As part of that e*ort, the U.S. government has bankrolled the National Endowment for Democracy. The nonpro)t foundation has funded more than 60 projects aimed at promoting civil society in Ukraine, and the NED’s president, Carl Gershman, has called that country “the biggest prize.” After Yanukovych won Ukraine’s presidential election in February 2010, the NED decided he was undermining its goals, and so it stepped up its e*orts to support the opposition and strengthen the country’s democratic institutions. When Russian leaders look at Western social engineering in Ukraine, they worry that their country might be next. And such fears are hardly groundless. In September 2013, Gershman wrote in The Washington Post, “Ukraine’s choice to join Europe will accelerate the demise of the ideology of Russian imperialism that Putin represents.” He added: “Russians, too, face a choice, and Putin may )nd himself on the losing end not just in the near abroad but within Russia itself.” CREATING A CRISIS The West’s triple package of policies—NATO enlargement, EU expansion, and democracy promotion—added fuel to a )re waiting to ignite. The spark came in November 2013, when Yanukovych rejected a major economic deal he had been negotiating with the EU and decided to accept a $15 billion Russian countero*er instead. That decision gave rise to antigovernment demonstrations that escalated over the following three months and that by mid-February had led to the deaths of some one hundred protesters. Western emissaries hurriedly 0ew to Kiev to resolve the crisis. On February 21, the government and the opposition struck a deal that allowed Yanukovych to stay in power until new elections were held. But it immediately fell apart, and Yanukovych 0ed to Russia the next day. The new government in Kiev was pro-Western and anti-Russian to the core, and it contained four high-ranking members who could legitimately be labeled neofascists. Although the full extent of U.S. involvement has not yet come to light, it is clear that Washington backed the coup. Nuland and Repub- Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 5 lican Senator John McCain participated in antigovernment demonstrations, and Geo*rey Pyatt, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, proclaimed after Yanukovych’s toppling that it was “a day for the history books.” As a leaked telephone recording revealed, Nuland had advocated regime change and wanted the Ukrainian politician Arseniy Yatsenyuk to become prime minister in the new government, which he did. No wonder Russians of all persuasions think the West played a role in Yanukovych’s ouster. For Putin, the time to act against Ukraine and the West had arrived. Shortly after February 22, he ordered Russian forces to take Crimea from Ukraine, and soon after that, he incorporated it into Russia. The task proved relatively easy, thanks to the thousands of Russian troops already stationed at a naval base in the Crimean port of Sevastopol. Crimea also made for an easy target since ethnic Russians compose roughly 60 percent of its population. Most of them wanted out of Ukraine. Next, Putin put massive pressure on the new government in Kiev to discourage it from siding with the West against Moscow, making it clear that he would wreck Ukraine as a functioning state before he would allow it to become a Western stronghold on Russia’s doorstep. Toward that end, he has provided advisers, arms, and diplomatic support to the Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, who are pushing the country toward civil war. He has massed a large army on the Ukrainian border, threatening to invade if the government cracks down on the rebels. And he has sharply raised the price of the natural gas Russia sells to Ukraine and demanded payment for past exports. Putin is playing hardball. THE DIAGNOSIS Putin’s actions should be easy to comprehend. A huge expanse of 0at land that Napoleonic France, imperial Germany, and Nazi Germany all crossed to strike at Russia itself, Ukraine serves as a bu*er state of enormous strategic importance to Russia. No Russian leader would tolerate a military alliance that was Moscow’s mortal enemy until recently moving into Ukraine. Nor would any Russian leader stand idly by while the West helped install a government there that was determined to integrate Ukraine into the West. Washington may not like Moscow’s position, but it should understand the logic behind it. This is Geopolitics 101: great powers are John J. Mearsheimer 6 FOREIGN AFFAIRS always sensitive to potential threats near their home territory. After all, the United States does not tolerate distant great powers deploying military forces anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, much less on its borders. Imagine the outrage in Washington if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico in it. Logic aside, Russian leaders have told their Western counterparts on many occasions that they consider NATO expansion into Georgia and Ukraine unacceptable, along with any e*ort to turn those countries against Russia—a message that the 2008 Russian-Georgian war also made crystal clear. O2cials from the United States and its European allies contend that they tried hard to assuage Russian fears and that Moscow should understand that NATO has no designs on Russia. In addition to continually denying that its expansion was aimed at containing Russia, the alliance has never permanently deployed military forces in its new member states. In 2002, it even created a body called the NATO-Russia Council in an e*ort to foster cooperation. To further mollify Russia, the United States announced in 2009 that it would deploy its new missile defense system on warships in European waters, at least initially, rather than on Czech or Polish territory. But none of these measures worked; the Russians remained steadfastly opposed to NATO enlargement, especially into Georgia and Ukraine. And it is the Russians, not the West, who ultimately get to decide what counts as a threat to them. To understand why the West, especially the United States, failed to understand that its Ukraine policy was laying the groundwork for a major clash with Russia, one must go back to the mid-1990s, when the Clinton administration began advocating NATO expansion. Pundits advanced a variety of arguments for and against enlargement, but there was no consensus on what to do. Most eastern European émigrés in the United States and their relatives, for example, strongly supported expansion, because they wanted NATO to protect such countries as Hungary and Poland. A few realists also favored the policy because they thought Russia still needed to be contained. But most realists opposed expansion, in the belief that a declining Imagine the outrage if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico in it. Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 7 great power with an aging population and a one-dimensional economy did not in fact need to be contained. And they feared that enlargement would only give Moscow an incentive to cause trouble in eastern Europe. The U.S. diplomat George Kennan articulated this perspective in a 1998 interview, shortly after the U.S. Senate approved the )rst round of NATO expansion. “I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will a*ect their policies,” he said. “I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anyone else.” Most liberals, on the other hand, favored enlargement, including many key members of the Clinton administration. They believed that the end of the Cold War had fundamentally transformed international politics and that a new, postnational order had replaced the realist logic that used to govern Europe. The United States was not only the “indispensable nation,” as Secretary of State Madeleine Albright put it; it was also a benign hegemon and thus unlikely to be viewed as a threat in Moscow. The aim, in essence, was to make the entire continent look like western Europe. And so the United States and its allies sought to promote democracy in the countries of eastern Europe, increase economic interdependence among them, and embed them in international institutions. Having won the debate in the United States, liberals had little di2- culty convincing their European allies to support NATO enlargement. After all, given the EU’s past achievements, Europeans were even more wedded than Americans to the idea that geopolitics no longer mattered and that an all-inclusive liberal order could maintain peace in Europe. So thoroughly did liberals come to dominate the discourse about European security during the )rst decade of this century that even as the alliance adopted an open-door policy of growth, NATO expansion faced little realist opposition. The liberal worldview is now accepted dogma among U.S. o2cials. In March, for example, President Barack Obama delivered a speech about Ukraine in which he talked repeatedly about “the ideals” that motivate Western policy and how those ideals “have often been threatened by an older, more traditional view of power.” Secretary of State John Kerry’s response to the Crimea crisis re0ected this same perspective: “You just don’t in the twenty- )rst century behave in nineteenth-century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext.” John J. Mearsheimer 8 FOREIGN AFFAIRS In essence, the two sides have been operating with di*erent playbooks: Putin and his compatriots have been thinking and acting according to realist dictates, whereas their Western counterparts have been adhering to liberal ideas about international politics. The result is that the United States and its allies unknowingly provoked a major crisis over Ukraine. BLAME GAME In that same 1998 interview, Kennan predicted that NATO expansion would provoke a crisis, after which the proponents of expansion would “say that we always told you that is how the Russians are.” As if on cue, most Western o2cials have portrayed Putin as the real culprit in the Ukraine predicament. In March, according to The New York Times, German Chancellor Angela Merkel implied that Putin was irrational, telling Obama that he was “in another world.” Although Putin no doubt has autocratic tendencies, no evidence supports the charge that he is mentally unbalanced. On the contrary: he is a )rst-class strategist who should be feared and respected by anyone challenging him on foreign policy. Other analysts allege, more plausibly, that Putin regrets the demise of the Soviet Union and is determined to reverse it by expanding Russia’s borders. According to this interpretation, Putin, having taken Crimea, is now testing the waters to see if the time is right to conquer Ukraine, or at least its eastern part, and he will eventually behave aggressively toward other countries in Russia’s neighborhood. For some in this camp, Putin represents a modern-day Adolf Hitler, and striking any kind of deal with him would repeat the mistake of Munich. Thus, NATO must admit Georgia and Ukraine to contain Russia before it dominates its neighbors and threatens western Europe. This argument falls apart on close inspection. If Putin were committed to creating a greater Russia, signs of his intentions would almost certainly have arisen before February 22. But there is virtually no evidence that he was bent on taking Crimea, much less any other territory in Ukraine, before that date. Even Western leaders who supported NATO expansion were not doing so out of a fear that Russia was about to use military force. Putin’s actions in Crimea took them by complete surprise and appear to have been a spontaneous reaction to Yanukovych’s ouster. Right afterward, even Putin said he opposed Crimean secession, before quickly changing his mind. Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 9 Besides, even if it wanted to, Russia lacks the capability to easily conquer and annex eastern Ukraine, much less the entire country. Roughly 15 million people—one-third of Ukraine’s population—live between the Dnieper River, which bisects the country, and the Russian border. An overwhelming majority of those people want to remain part of Ukraine and would surely resist a Russian occupation. Furthermore, Russia’s mediocre army, which shows few signs of turning into a modern Wehrmacht, would have little chance of pacifying all of Ukraine. Moscow is also poorly positioned to pay for a costly occupation; its weak economy would su*er even more in the face of the resulting sanctions. But even if Russia did boast a powerful military machine and an impressive economy, it would still probably prove unable to successfully occupy Ukraine. One need only consider the Soviet and U.S. experiences in Afghanistan, the U.S. experiences in Vietnam and Iraq, and the Russian experience in Chechnya to be reminded that military occupations usually end badly. Putin surely understands that trying to subdue Ukraine would be like swallowing a porcupine. His response to events there has been defensive, not o*ensive. A WAY OUT Given that most Western leaders continue to deny that Putin’s behavior might be motivated by legitimate security concerns, it is unsurprising that they have tried to modify it by doubling down on their existing policies and have punished Russia to deter further aggression. Although Kerry has maintained that “all options are on the table,” neither the United States nor its NATO allies are prepared to use force to defend Ukraine. The West is relying instead on economic sanctions to coerce Russia into ending its support for the insurrection in eastern Ukraine. In July, the United States and the EU put in place their third round of limited sanctions, targeting mainly high-level individuals closely tied to the Russian government and some high-pro- )le banks, energy companies, and defense )rms. They also threatened to unleash another, tougher round of sanctions, aimed at whole sectors of the Russian economy. Such measures will have little e*ect. Harsh sanctions are likely o* the table anyway; western European countries, especially Germany, have resisted imposing them for fear that Russia might retaliate and cause serious economic damage within the EU. But even if the United John J. Mearsheimer 10 FOREIGN AFFAIRS States could convince its allies to enact tough measures, Putin would probably not alter his decision-making. History shows that countries will absorb enormous amounts of punishment in order to protect their core strategic interests. There is no reason to think Russia represents an exception to this rule. Western leaders have also clung to the provocative policies that precipitated the crisis in the )rst place. In April, U.S. Vice President Joseph Biden met with Ukrainian legislators and told them, “This is a second opportunity to make good on the original promise made by the Orange Revolution.” John Brennan, the director of the CIA, did not help things when, that same month, he visited Kiev on a trip the White House said was aimed at improving security cooperation with the Ukrainian government. The EU, meanwhile, has continued to push its Eastern Partnership. In March, José Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission, summarized EU thinking on Ukraine, saying, “We have a debt, a duty of solidarity with that country, and we will work to have them as close as possible to us.” And sure enough, on June 27, the EU and Ukraine signed the economic agreement that Yanukovych had fatefully rejected seven months earlier. Also in June, at a meeting of NATO members’ foreign ministers, it was agreed that the alliance would remain open to new members, although the foreign ministers refrained from mentioning Ukraine by name. “No third country has a veto over NATO enlargement,” announced Anders Fogh Rasmussen, NATO’s secretary-general. The foreign ministers also agreed to support various measures to improve Ukraine’s military capabilities in such areas as command and control, logistics, and cyberdefense. Russian leaders have naturally recoiled at these actions; the West’s response to the crisis will only make a bad situation worse. There is a solution to the crisis in Ukraine, however—although it would require the West to think about the country in a fundamentally new way. The United States and its allies should abandon their plan to westernize Ukraine and instead aim to make it a neutral bu*er between NATO and Russia, akin to Austria’s position during the Cold War. Western leaders should acknowledge that Ukraine matters so much to Putin that they cannot support an anti-Russian regime there. This would not mean that a future Ukrainian government would have to be pro-Russian or anti-NATO. On the contrary, the goal should be a sovereign Ukraine that falls in neither the Russian nor the Western Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 11 camp. To achieve this end, the United States and its allies should publicly rule out NATO’s expansion into both Georgia and Ukraine. The West should also help fashion an economic rescue plan for Ukraine funded jointly by the EU, the International Monetary Fund, Russia, and the United States—a proposal that Moscow should welcome, given its interest in having a prosperous and stable Ukraine on its western 0ank. And the West should considerably limit its social-engineering e*orts inside Ukraine. It is time to put an end to Western support for another Orange Revolution. Nevertheless, U.S. and European leaders should encourage Ukraine to respect minority rights, especially the language rights of its Russian speakers. Some may argue that changing policy toward Ukraine at this late date would seriously damage U.S. credibility around the world. There would undoubtedly be certain costs, but the costs of continuing a misguided strategy would be much greater. Furthermore, other countries are likely to respect a state that learns from its mistakes and ultimately devises a policy that deals e*ectively with the problem at hand. That option is clearly open to the United States. One also hears the claim that Ukraine has the right to determine whom it wants to ally with and the Russians have no right to prevent Kiev from joining the West. This is a dangerous way for Ukraine to think about its foreign policy choices. The sad truth is that might often makes right when great-power politics are at play. Abstract rights such as self-determination are largely meaningless when powerful states get into brawls with weaker states. Did Cuba have the right to form a military alliance with the Soviet Union during the Cold War? The United States certainly did not think so, and the Russians think the same way about Ukraine joining the West. It is in Ukraine’s interest to understand these facts of life and tread carefully when dealing with its more powerful neighbor. Even if one rejects this analysis, however, and believes that Ukraine has the right to petition to join the EU and NATO, the fact remains that the United States and its European allies have the right to reject these requests. There is no reason that the West has to accommodate The United States and its allies should abandon their plan to westernize Ukraine and instead aim to make it a neutral bu!er. John J. Mearsheimer 12 FOREIGN AFFAIRS Ukraine if it is bent on pursuing a wrong-headed foreign policy, especially if its defense is not a vital interest for them. Indulging the dreams of some Ukrainians is not worth the animosity and strife it will cause, especially for the Ukrainian people. Of course, some analysts might concede that NATO handled relations with Ukraine poorly and yet still maintain that Russia constitutes an enemy that will only grow more formidable over time—and that the West therefore has no choice but to continue its present policy. But this viewpoint is badly mistaken. Russia is a declining power, and it will only get weaker with time. Even if Russia were a rising power, moreover, it would still make no sense to incorporate Ukraine into NATO. The reason is simple: the United States and its European allies do not consider Ukraine to be a core strategic interest, as their unwillingness to use military force to come to its aid has proved. It would therefore be the height of folly to create a new NATO member that the other members have no intention of defending. NATO has expanded in the past because liberals assumed the alliance would never have to honor its new security guarantees, but Russia’s recent power play shows that granting Ukraine NATO membership could put Russia and the West on a collision course. Sticking with the current policy would also complicate Western relations with Moscow on other issues. The United States needs Russia’s assistance to withdraw U.S. equipment from Afghanistan through Russian territory, reach a nuclear agreement with Iran, and stabilize the situation in Syria. In fact, Moscow has helped Washington on all three of these issues in the past; in the summer of 2013, it was Putin who pulled Obama’s chestnuts out of the )re by forging the deal under which Syria agreed to relinquish its chemical weapons, thereby avoiding the U.S. military strike that Obama had threatened. The United States will also someday need Russia’s help containing a rising China. Current U.S. policy, however, is only driving Moscow and Beijing closer together. The United States and its European allies now face a choice on Ukraine. They can continue their current policy, which will exacerbate hostilities with Russia and devastate Ukraine in the process—a scenario in which everyone would come out a loser. Or they can switch gears and work to create a prosperous but neutral Ukraine, one that does not threaten Russia and allows the West to repair its relations with Moscow. With that approach, all
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I get it. You don't like him. No one on the far right does. He voted to impeach and he's on the Jan 6 Select Committee.

But you need some new adjectives. Opportunistic? His opposition to Trump cost him his House seat. And "opportunistic" implies a lack of morals and/or principles. That's hardly Kinzinger.

Kinzinger is one of the few in the GOP that has a spine. Of course, we see what a spine gets you in that party as he isn't running for re-election.
 
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I get it. You don't like him. No one on the far right does. He voted to impeach and he's on the Jan 6 Select Committee.

But you need some new adjectives. Opportunistic? His opposition to Trump cost him his House seat. And "opportunistic" implies a lack of morals and/or principles. That's hardly Kinzinger.
We'll see how it plays out in terms of drawing attention to himself. Long term. Opportunistic. His position in Ukraine is mental. And no I don't like him.

And i am hardly far right. I voted Dem more than republican. But you are a one trick pony. Go fight with Danc. You have a long way to go to get to even with him.
 
And sadly you still missed most of the crap Trump did.

And sadly you still missed most of the crap Trump did.
Well, now that you mention it. There is his history with personal lawyers Roy Cohn and Mike Cohen, each of whom served his legal needs for 12 years each. Both were disbarred and both received prison terms but perhaps were different in that Cohn was a corrupt man when he came to Trump and perhaps Cohen was corrupted by Trump. Both however were just great guys according to DJT until one of the wasn't a great guy anymore

And then there is always Rudy. Or Sidney.

He does have a bit of a mess in Georgia because all he needed was 11,780 votes. Scotland is investigating him for a suspicious cash payment of several million dollars they seem to think may have been money laundering and those folks on that committee seem to be real curious about his Mr. Meadows e-mails about what those people were trying to do with fake electors, etc.

Thanks for calling me out IU. Sorry I missed so much.
 
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I get it. You don't like him. No one on the far right does. He voted to impeach and he's on the Jan 6 Select Committee.

But you need some new adjectives. Opportunistic? His opposition to Trump cost him his House seat. And "opportunistic" implies a lack of morals and/or principles. That's hardly Kinzinger.
He's mentally ill. He cries every 10 minutes.
 
In that argument, we didn't want Cuba to be pro-Russian and it was for a very long time. In the end, we have decided it is Ukraine's decision what it does, and I don't see anything wrong with that position. Ukraine chooses Ukraine's future. We aren't marching in demanding they join NATO but the professor you quote seems to be arguing that Russia has the right to march in. If Russia has the right to march into Ukraine, do they have that right in the Baltic States? Poland? The Czech Republic? Finland?
You're a little slow on the uptake here Marv.

His argument is that it doesn't mean all that much whether or not not "Russia has the right to march into Ukraine". The question he has argued/debated is what Russia WOULD do, not what Russia SHOULD do, were Georgia & Ukraine to continue on their path toward NATO membership. He noted that Putin previously tore the crap out of Georgia, and predicted he would do the same to Ukraine. He was predicting this outcome in 2006. And he's been proven correct.

This goes back to Biden's punking of Putin in the election, and the two pronouncements from on high of US policy concerning Ukraine in September & November of 2021. . He is and always has been a simplistic fool. And Obama was of the same ilk.

Why don't we look at what we have to show for it.........maybe 20000 Russian dead, maybe another 20000 Ukrainians dead (civilian & military), trillions of $ of US aid, and threats of nuclear war.

But what the hell.....we won the high school civics debate.

Oops....forgot the 5 million refugees.
 
Lloyd Austin surprisingly announced that the US policy is now to degrade Russia’s military so it can’t invade again. Not a good message to deliver to Putin. A Worse thing to say when a more strident Russian will be in charge while Putin is under the knife and said Russian speaks of missile attacks on Ukrainian decision centers and decision makers with a side order of Berlin, Paris, and London thrown in.

Trump says that negotiations are way overdue and that the chance of a negotiated outcome is less each day the war goes on.

Norm Chomsky said Trump is the only adult in the room.

Norm Chomsky is right on this one. Lloyd Austin needs to keep his trap shut. He is, or maybe already has, pushing Russia over the edge. I don’t think we would be here if Trump were POTUS.





Hoosier, I agree it was a dumbass thing to say. Jen Saki is the only individual associated with this administration that knows her ass from a hole in the ground. And what she does really well is lying.
 
Russia wants a land bridge to Crimea, if you do not know that you lack sufficient knowledge to take part in this discussion. If that is Putin's goal, Trump could have stopped the war by ensuring said land bridge.
And, I'm pretty sure taking the coastal area of Ukraine to create a land bridge for Russia would render Ukraine landlocked thus impairing its economic growth. Looked like Ukraine would lose all its ports to the Black Sea on the maps.
 
Here is a broader historical treatment of the same subject:

Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin John J. Mearsheimer According to the prevailing wisdom in the West, the Ukraine crisis can be blamed almost entirely on Russian aggression. Russian President Vladimir Putin, the argument goes, annexed Crimea out of a long-standing desire to resuscitate the Soviet empire, and he may eventually go after the rest of Ukraine, as well as other countries in eastern Europe. In this view, the ouster of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 merely provided a pretext for Putin’s decision to order Russian forces to seize part of Ukraine. But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West. At the same time, the EU’s expansion eastward and the West’s backing of the pro-democracy movement in Ukraine—beginning with the Orange Revolution in 2004—were critical elements, too. Since the mid1990s, Russian leaders have adamantly opposed NATO enlargement and in recent years, they have made it clear that they would not stand by while their strategically important neighbor turned into a Western bastion. For Putin, the illegal overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected and pro-Russian president—which he rightly labeled a “coup”—was the )nal straw. He responded by taking Crimea, a peninsula he feared would host a NATO naval base, and working to destabilize Ukraine until it abandoned its e*orts to join the West. Putin’s pushback should have come as no surprise. After all, the West had been moving into Russia’s backyard and threatening its core John J. Mearsheimer 2 FOREIGN AFFAIRS strategic interests, a point Putin made emphatically and repeatedly. Elites in the United States and Europe have been blindsided by events only because they subscribe to a 0awed view of international politics. They tend to believe that the logic of realism holds little relevance in the twenty-)rst century and that Europe can be kept whole and free on the basis of such liberal principles as the rule of law, economic interdependence, and democracy. But this grand scheme went awry in Ukraine. The crisis there shows that realpolitik remains relevant—and states that ignore it do so at their own peril. U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border. Now that the consequences have been laid bare, it would be an even greater mistake to continue this misbegotten policy. THE WESTERN AFFRONT As the Cold War came to a close, Soviet leaders preferred that U.S. forces remain in Europe and NATO stay intact, an arrangement they thought would keep a reuni)ed Germany paci)ed. But they and their Russian successors did not want NATO to grow any larger and assumed that Western diplomats understood their concerns. The Clinton administration evidently thought otherwise, and in the mid-1990s, it began pushing for NATO to expand. The )rst round of enlargement took place in 1999 and brought in the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland. The second occurred in 2004; it included Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia. Moscow complained bitterly from the start. During NATO’s 1995 bombing campaign against the Bosnian Serbs, for example, Russian President Boris Yeltsin said, “This is the )rst sign of what could happen when NATO comes right up to the Russian Federation’s borders. . . . The 0ame of war could burst out across the whole of Europe.” But the Russians were too weak at the time to derail NATO’s eastward movement—which, at any rate, did not look so threatening, since none of the new members shared a border with Russia, save for the tiny Baltic countries. Then NATO began looking further east. At its April 2008 summit in Bucharest, the alliance considered admitting Georgia and Ukraine. The George W. Bush administration supported doing so, but France and Germany opposed the move for fear that it would unduly antagonize Russia. In the end, NATO’s members reached a compromise: the Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 3 alliance did not begin the formal process leading to membership, but it issued a statement endorsing the aspirations of Georgia and Ukraine and boldly declaring, “These countries will become members of NATO.” Moscow, however, did not see the outcome as much of a compromise. Alexander Grushko, then Russia’s deputy foreign minister, said, “Georgia’s and Ukraine’s membership in the alliance is a huge strategic mistake which would have most serious consequences for pan-European security.” Putin maintained that admitting those two countries to NATO would represent a “direct threat” to Russia. One Russian newspaper reported that Putin, while speaking with Bush, “very transparently hinted that if Ukraine was accepted into NATO, it would cease to exist.” Russia’s invasion of Georgia in August 2008 should have dispelled any remaining doubts about Putin’s determination to prevent Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who was deeply committed to bringing his country into NATO, had decided in the summer of 2008 to reincorporate two separatist regions, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. But Putin sought to keep Georgia weak and divided—and out of NATO. After )ghting broke out between the Georgian government and South Ossetian separatists, Russian forces took control of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Moscow had made its point. Yet despite this clear warning, NATO never publicly abandoned its goal of bringing Georgia and Ukraine into the alliance. And NATO expansion continued marching forward, with Albania and Croatia becoming members in 2009. The EU, too, has been marching eastward. In May 2008, it unveiled its Eastern Partnership initiative, a program to foster prosperity in such countries as Ukraine and integrate them into the EU economy. Not surprisingly, Russian leaders view the plan as hostile to their country’s interests. This past February, before Yanukovych was forced from o2ce, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov accused the EU of trying to create a “sphere of in0uence” in eastern Europe. In the eyes of Russian leaders, EU expansion is a stalking horse for NATO expansion. The West’s )nal tool for peeling Kiev away from Moscow has been U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border. John J. Mearsheimer 4 FOREIGN AFFAIRS its e*orts to spread Western values and promote democracy in Ukraine and other post-Soviet states, a plan that often entails funding proWestern individuals and organizations. Victoria Nuland, the U.S. assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian a*airs, estimated in December 2013 that the United States had invested more than $5 billion since 1991 to help Ukraine achieve “the future it deserves.” As part of that e*ort, the U.S. government has bankrolled the National Endowment for Democracy. The nonpro)t foundation has funded more than 60 projects aimed at promoting civil society in Ukraine, and the NED’s president, Carl Gershman, has called that country “the biggest prize.” After Yanukovych won Ukraine’s presidential election in February 2010, the NED decided he was undermining its goals, and so it stepped up its e*orts to support the opposition and strengthen the country’s democratic institutions. When Russian leaders look at Western social engineering in Ukraine, they worry that their country might be next. And such fears are hardly groundless. In September 2013, Gershman wrote in The Washington Post, “Ukraine’s choice to join Europe will accelerate the demise of the ideology of Russian imperialism that Putin represents.” He added: “Russians, too, face a choice, and Putin may )nd himself on the losing end not just in the near abroad but within Russia itself.” CREATING A CRISIS The West’s triple package of policies—NATO enlargement, EU expansion, and democracy promotion—added fuel to a )re waiting to ignite. The spark came in November 2013, when Yanukovych rejected a major economic deal he had been negotiating with the EU and decided to accept a $15 billion Russian countero*er instead. That decision gave rise to antigovernment demonstrations that escalated over the following three months and that by mid-February had led to the deaths of some one hundred protesters. Western emissaries hurriedly 0ew to Kiev to resolve the crisis. On February 21, the government and the opposition struck a deal that allowed Yanukovych to stay in power until new elections were held. But it immediately fell apart, and Yanukovych 0ed to Russia the next day. The new government in Kiev was pro-Western and anti-Russian to the core, and it contained four high-ranking members who could legitimately be labeled neofascists. Although the full extent of U.S. involvement has not yet come to light, it is clear that Washington backed the coup. Nuland and Repub- Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 5 lican Senator John McCain participated in antigovernment demonstrations, and Geo*rey Pyatt, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, proclaimed after Yanukovych’s toppling that it was “a day for the history books.” As a leaked telephone recording revealed, Nuland had advocated regime change and wanted the Ukrainian politician Arseniy Yatsenyuk to become prime minister in the new government, which he did. No wonder Russians of all persuasions think the West played a role in Yanukovych’s ouster. For Putin, the time to act against Ukraine and the West had arrived. Shortly after February 22, he ordered Russian forces to take Crimea from Ukraine, and soon after that, he incorporated it into Russia. The task proved relatively easy, thanks to the thousands of Russian troops already stationed at a naval base in the Crimean port of Sevastopol. Crimea also made for an easy target since ethnic Russians compose roughly 60 percent of its population. Most of them wanted out of Ukraine. Next, Putin put massive pressure on the new government in Kiev to discourage it from siding with the West against Moscow, making it clear that he would wreck Ukraine as a functioning state before he would allow it to become a Western stronghold on Russia’s doorstep. Toward that end, he has provided advisers, arms, and diplomatic support to the Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, who are pushing the country toward civil war. He has massed a large army on the Ukrainian border, threatening to invade if the government cracks down on the rebels. And he has sharply raised the price of the natural gas Russia sells to Ukraine and demanded payment for past exports. Putin is playing hardball. THE DIAGNOSIS Putin’s actions should be easy to comprehend. A huge expanse of 0at land that Napoleonic France, imperial Germany, and Nazi Germany all crossed to strike at Russia itself, Ukraine serves as a bu*er state of enormous strategic importance to Russia. No Russian leader would tolerate a military alliance that was Moscow’s mortal enemy until recently moving into Ukraine. Nor would any Russian leader stand idly by while the West helped install a government there that was determined to integrate Ukraine into the West. Washington may not like Moscow’s position, but it should understand the logic behind it. This is Geopolitics 101: great powers are John J. Mearsheimer 6 FOREIGN AFFAIRS always sensitive to potential threats near their home territory. After all, the United States does not tolerate distant great powers deploying military forces anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, much less on its borders. Imagine the outrage in Washington if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico in it. Logic aside, Russian leaders have told their Western counterparts on many occasions that they consider NATO expansion into Georgia and Ukraine unacceptable, along with any e*ort to turn those countries against Russia—a message that the 2008 Russian-Georgian war also made crystal clear. O2cials from the United States and its European allies contend that they tried hard to assuage Russian fears and that Moscow should understand that NATO has no designs on Russia. In addition to continually denying that its expansion was aimed at containing Russia, the alliance has never permanently deployed military forces in its new member states. In 2002, it even created a body called the NATO-Russia Council in an e*ort to foster cooperation. To further mollify Russia, the United States announced in 2009 that it would deploy its new missile defense system on warships in European waters, at least initially, rather than on Czech or Polish territory. But none of these measures worked; the Russians remained steadfastly opposed to NATO enlargement, especially into Georgia and Ukraine. And it is the Russians, not the West, who ultimately get to decide what counts as a threat to them. To understand why the West, especially the United States, failed to understand that its Ukraine policy was laying the groundwork for a major clash with Russia, one must go back to the mid-1990s, when the Clinton administration began advocating NATO expansion. Pundits advanced a variety of arguments for and against enlargement, but there was no consensus on what to do. Most eastern European émigrés in the United States and their relatives, for example, strongly supported expansion, because they wanted NATO to protect such countries as Hungary and Poland. A few realists also favored the policy because they thought Russia still needed to be contained. But most realists opposed expansion, in the belief that a declining Imagine the outrage if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico in it. Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 7 great power with an aging population and a one-dimensional economy did not in fact need to be contained. And they feared that enlargement would only give Moscow an incentive to cause trouble in eastern Europe. The U.S. diplomat George Kennan articulated this perspective in a 1998 interview, shortly after the U.S. Senate approved the )rst round of NATO expansion. “I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will a*ect their policies,” he said. “I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anyone else.” Most liberals, on the other hand, favored enlargement, including many key members of the Clinton administration. They believed that the end of the Cold War had fundamentally transformed international politics and that a new, postnational order had replaced the realist logic that used to govern Europe. The United States was not only the “indispensable nation,” as Secretary of State Madeleine Albright put it; it was also a benign hegemon and thus unlikely to be viewed as a threat in Moscow. The aim, in essence, was to make the entire continent look like western Europe. And so the United States and its allies sought to promote democracy in the countries of eastern Europe, increase economic interdependence among them, and embed them in international institutions. Having won the debate in the United States, liberals had little di2- culty convincing their European allies to support NATO enlargement. After all, given the EU’s past achievements, Europeans were even more wedded than Americans to the idea that geopolitics no longer mattered and that an all-inclusive liberal order could maintain peace in Europe. So thoroughly did liberals come to dominate the discourse about European security during the )rst decade of this century that even as the alliance adopted an open-door policy of growth, NATO expansion faced little realist opposition. The liberal worldview is now accepted dogma among U.S. o2cials. In March, for example, President Barack Obama delivered a speech about Ukraine in which he talked repeatedly about “the ideals” that motivate Western policy and how those ideals “have often been threatened by an older, more traditional view of power.” Secretary of State John Kerry’s response to the Crimea crisis re0ected this same perspective: “You just don’t in the twenty- )rst century behave in nineteenth-century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext.” John J. Mearsheimer 8 FOREIGN AFFAIRS In essence, the two sides have been operating with di*erent playbooks: Putin and his compatriots have been thinking and acting according to realist dictates, whereas their Western counterparts have been adhering to liberal ideas about international politics. The result is that the United States and its allies unknowingly provoked a major crisis over Ukraine. BLAME GAME In that same 1998 interview, Kennan predicted that NATO expansion would provoke a crisis, after which the proponents of expansion would “say that we always told you that is how the Russians are.” As if on cue, most Western o2cials have portrayed Putin as the real culprit in the Ukraine predicament. In March, according to The New York Times, German Chancellor Angela Merkel implied that Putin was irrational, telling Obama that he was “in another world.” Although Putin no doubt has autocratic tendencies, no evidence supports the charge that he is mentally unbalanced. On the contrary: he is a )rst-class strategist who should be feared and respected by anyone challenging him on foreign policy. Other analysts allege, more plausibly, that Putin regrets the demise of the Soviet Union and is determined to reverse it by expanding Russia’s borders. According to this interpretation, Putin, having taken Crimea, is now testing the waters to see if the time is right to conquer Ukraine, or at least its eastern part, and he will eventually behave aggressively toward other countries in Russia’s neighborhood. For some in this camp, Putin represents a modern-day Adolf Hitler, and striking any kind of deal with him would repeat the mistake of Munich. Thus, NATO must admit Georgia and Ukraine to contain Russia before it dominates its neighbors and threatens western Europe. This argument falls apart on close inspection. If Putin were committed to creating a greater Russia, signs of his intentions would almost certainly have arisen before February 22. But there is virtually no evidence that he was bent on taking Crimea, much less any other territory in Ukraine, before that date. Even Western leaders who supported NATO expansion were not doing so out of a fear that Russia was about to use military force. Putin’s actions in Crimea took them by complete surprise and appear to have been a spontaneous reaction to Yanukovych’s ouster. Right afterward, even Putin said he opposed Crimean secession, before quickly changing his mind. Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 9 Besides, even if it wanted to, Russia lacks the capability to easily conquer and annex eastern Ukraine, much less the entire country. Roughly 15 million people—one-third of Ukraine’s population—live between the Dnieper River, which bisects the country, and the Russian border. An overwhelming majority of those people want to remain part of Ukraine and would surely resist a Russian occupation. Furthermore, Russia’s mediocre army, which shows few signs of turning into a modern Wehrmacht, would have little chance of pacifying all of Ukraine. Moscow is also poorly positioned to pay for a costly occupation; its weak economy would su*er even more in the face of the resulting sanctions. But even if Russia did boast a powerful military machine and an impressive economy, it would still probably prove unable to successfully occupy Ukraine. One need only consider the Soviet and U.S. experiences in Afghanistan, the U.S. experiences in Vietnam and Iraq, and the Russian experience in Chechnya to be reminded that military occupations usually end badly. Putin surely understands that trying to subdue Ukraine would be like swallowing a porcupine. His response to events there has been defensive, not o*ensive. A WAY OUT Given that most Western leaders continue to deny that Putin’s behavior might be motivated by legitimate security concerns, it is unsurprising that they have tried to modify it by doubling down on their existing policies and have punished Russia to deter further aggression. Although Kerry has maintained that “all options are on the table,” neither the United States nor its NATO allies are prepared to use force to defend Ukraine. The West is relying instead on economic sanctions to coerce Russia into ending its support for the insurrection in eastern Ukraine. In July, the United States and the EU put in place their third round of limited sanctions, targeting mainly high-level individuals closely tied to the Russian government and some high-pro- )le banks, energy companies, and defense )rms. They also threatened to unleash another, tougher round of sanctions, aimed at whole sectors of the Russian economy. Such measures will have little e*ect. Harsh sanctions are likely o* the table anyway; western European countries, especially Germany, have resisted imposing them for fear that Russia might retaliate and cause serious economic damage within the EU. But even if the United John J. Mearsheimer 10 FOREIGN AFFAIRS States could convince its allies to enact tough measures, Putin would probably not alter his decision-making. History shows that countries will absorb enormous amounts of punishment in order to protect their core strategic interests. There is no reason to think Russia represents an exception to this rule. Western leaders have also clung to the provocative policies that precipitated the crisis in the )rst place. In April, U.S. Vice President Joseph Biden met with Ukrainian legislators and told them, “This is a second opportunity to make good on the original promise made by the Orange Revolution.” John Brennan, the director of the CIA, did not help things when, that same month, he visited Kiev on a trip the White House said was aimed at improving security cooperation with the Ukrainian government. The EU, meanwhile, has continued to push its Eastern Partnership. In March, José Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission, summarized EU thinking on Ukraine, saying, “We have a debt, a duty of solidarity with that country, and we will work to have them as close as possible to us.” And sure enough, on June 27, the EU and Ukraine signed the economic agreement that Yanukovych had fatefully rejected seven months earlier. Also in June, at a meeting of NATO members’ foreign ministers, it was agreed that the alliance would remain open to new members, although the foreign ministers refrained from mentioning Ukraine by name. “No third country has a veto over NATO enlargement,” announced Anders Fogh Rasmussen, NATO’s secretary-general. The foreign ministers also agreed to support various measures to improve Ukraine’s military capabilities in such areas as command and control, logistics, and cyberdefense. Russian leaders have naturally recoiled at these actions; the West’s response to the crisis will only make a bad situation worse. There is a solution to the crisis in Ukraine, however—although it would require the West to think about the country in a fundamentally new way. The United States and its allies should abandon their plan to westernize Ukraine and instead aim to make it a neutral bu*er between NATO and Russia, akin to Austria’s position during the Cold War. Western leaders should acknowledge that Ukraine matters so much to Putin that they cannot support an anti-Russian regime there. This would not mean that a future Ukrainian government would have to be pro-Russian or anti-NATO. On the contrary, the goal should be a sovereign Ukraine that falls in neither the Russian nor the Western Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault September/October 2014 11 camp. To achieve this end, the United States and its allies should publicly rule out NATO’s expansion into both Georgia and Ukraine. The West should also help fashion an economic rescue plan for Ukraine funded jointly by the EU, the International Monetary Fund, Russia, and the United States—a proposal that Moscow should welcome, given its interest in having a prosperous and stable Ukraine on its western 0ank. And the West should considerably limit its social-engineering e*orts inside Ukraine. It is time to put an end to Western support for another Orange Revolution. Nevertheless, U.S. and European leaders should encourage Ukraine to respect minority rights, especially the language rights of its Russian speakers. Some may argue that changing policy toward Ukraine at this late date would seriously damage U.S. credibility around the world. There would undoubtedly be certain costs, but the costs of continuing a misguided strategy would be much greater. Furthermore, other countries are likely to respect a state that learns from its mistakes and ultimately devises a policy that deals e*ectively with the problem at hand. That option is clearly open to the United States. One also hears the claim that Ukraine has the right to determine whom it wants to ally with and the Russians have no right to prevent Kiev from joining the West. This is a dangerous way for Ukraine to think about its foreign policy choices. The sad truth is that might often makes right when great-power politics are at play. Abstract rights such as self-determination are largely meaningless when powerful states get into brawls with weaker states. Did Cuba have the right to form a military alliance with the Soviet Union during the Cold War? The United States certainly did not think so, and the Russians think the same way about Ukraine joining the West. It is in Ukraine’s interest to understand these facts of life and tread carefully when dealing with its more powerful neighbor. Even if one rejects this analysis, however, and believes that Ukraine has the right to petition to join the EU and NATO, the fact remains that the United States and its European allies have the right to reject these requests. There is no reason that the West has to accommodate The United States and its allies should abandon their plan to westernize Ukraine and instead aim to make it a neutral bu!er. John J. Mearsheimer 12 FOREIGN AFFAIRS Ukraine if it is bent on pursuing a wrong-headed foreign policy, especially if its defense is not a vital interest for them. Indulging the dreams of some Ukrainians is not worth the animosity and strife it will cause, especially for the Ukrainian people. Of course, some analysts might concede that NATO handled relations with Ukraine poorly and yet still maintain that Russia constitutes an enemy that will only grow more formidable over time—and that the West therefore has no choice but to continue its present policy. But this viewpoint is badly mistaken. Russia is a declining power, and it will only get weaker with time. Even if Russia were a rising power, moreover, it would still make no sense to incorporate Ukraine into NATO. The reason is simple: the United States and its European allies do not consider Ukraine to be a core strategic interest, as their unwillingness to use military force to come to its aid has proved. It would therefore be the height of folly to create a new NATO member that the other members have no intention of defending. NATO has expanded in the past because liberals assumed the alliance would never have to honor its new security guarantees, but Russia’s recent power play shows that granting Ukraine NATO membership could put Russia and the West on a collision course. Sticking with the current policy would also complicate Western relations with Moscow on other issues. The United States needs Russia’s assistance to withdraw U.S. equipment from Afghanistan through Russian territory, reach a nuclear agreement with Iran, and stabilize the situation in Syria. In fact, Moscow has helped Washington on all three of these issues in the past; in the summer of 2013, it was Putin who pulled Obama’s chestnuts out of the )re by forging the deal under which Syria agreed to relinquish its chemical weapons, thereby avoiding the U.S. military strike that Obama had threatened. The United States will also someday need Russia’s help containing a rising China. Current U.S. policy, however, is only driving Moscow and Beijing closer together. The United States and its European allies now face a choice on Ukraine. They can continue their current policy, which will exacerbate hostilities with Russia and devastate Ukraine in the process—a scenario in which everyone would come out a loser. Or they can switch gears and work to create a prosperous but neutral Ukraine, one that does not threaten Russia and allows the West to repair its relations with Moscow. With that approach, all
What?
 
In the last several days, the highest ranking legislator in our government and our secretary of Defense said our objective is to see a Ukrainian victory and to so degrade Russian military that it will be years before it can do this again. If those are worthy objectives, we should not announce either one to Putin. We can’t be predictable.
Do you really think Putin would have predicted that kind of US response? My guess is what he predicted is we would do everything we could to stop the fighting out of fear of escalation (and what you're suggesting Trump would do). There's a difference between mutual assured destruction and fear. Biden and NATO are leaning into the former rather than the latter.
 
Nah he's opportunistic and unhinged. Good riddance. US getting involved in Ukraine with forces is asinine
How is he opportunistic? He's essentially been ostracized by his party. He will most likely never hold an elected office ever again. Not sure what he gained?

Also unhinged? How so? He seems fairly level headed. I guess I don't really follow him close enough.
 
More than likely, if Trump were still president, then he would be taking orders from putin on how best to continue his dismantling of NATO.
It's hard to say. Too bad we can't review any notes the Trump Administration may have taken to document what was said during Trump's conversations with Putin.
 
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How is he opportunistic? He's essentially been ostracized by his party. He will most likely never hold an elected office ever again. Not sure what he gained?

Also unhinged? How so? He seems fairly level headed. I guess I don't really follow him close enough.
Now you know him. Most didn't before. His approach on Ukraine might get us nuked.
 
It's hard to say. Too bad we can't review any notes the Trump Administration may have taken to document what was said during Trump's conversations with Putin.

Yea, it would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall during those conversations.
 
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You're a little slow on the uptake here Marv.

His argument is that it doesn't mean all that much whether or not not "Russia has the right to march into Ukraine". The question he has argued/debated is what Russia WOULD do, not what Russia SHOULD do, were Georgia & Ukraine to continue on their path toward NATO membership. He noted that Putin previously tore the crap out of Georgia, and predicted he would do the same to Ukraine. He was predicting this outcome in 2006. And he's been proven correct.

This goes back to Biden's punking of Putin in the election, and the two pronouncements from on high of US policy concerning Ukraine in September & November of 2021. . He is and always has been a simplistic fool. And Obama was of the same ilk.

Why don't we look at what we have to show for it.........maybe 20000 Russian dead, maybe another 20000 Ukrainians dead (civilian & military), trillions of $ of US aid, and threats of nuclear war.

But what the hell.....we won the high school civics debate.

Oops....forgot the 5 million refugees.

For people who once lived their lives that the west had to stop Hitler at all costs to suddenly say Putin needs appeased at all costs is quite the change. I hope no one strips their gears going into reverse like that.

Putin is no different than Hitler or Stalin, the West needs a line in the sand. Ukraine is it. If not Ukraine it would be the Baltics next, or Poland, then Germany, ... .
 
In about one sentence what is Kinzinger‘s approach on Ukraine? I don’t follow him.
Emotional weirdo want suicide by Nuke after defending country not America make Missouri too hot can't live no more
 
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For people who once lived their lives that the west had to stop Hitler at all costs to suddenly say Putin needs appeased at all costs is quite the change. I hope no one strips their gears going into reverse like that.

Putin is no different than Hitler or Stalin, the West needs a line in the sand. Ukraine is it. If not Ukraine it would be the Baltics next, or Poland, then Germany, ... .

Putin may be no different than Hitler or Stalin, but Hitler and Stalin didn't have a few thousand nukes, deliverable worldwide at the push of a button.

not exactly a minor difference in the destructive power at their fingertips.

i have zero faith in Putin. if he is terminally ill, then that makes him 1,000 times more dangerous as someone with nothing to lose.

would be nice if someone around him grew some balls and saved the world from him.
 
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For people who once lived their lives that the west had to stop Hitler at all costs to suddenly say Putin needs appeased at all costs is quite the change. I hope no one strips their gears going into reverse like that.

Putin is no different than Hitler or Stalin, the West needs a line in the sand. Ukraine is it. If not Ukraine it would be the Baltics next, or Poland, then Germany, ... .
I don't disagree with US policy since the invasion, other than it is profoundly stupid and immoral to be hoping for a long and violent war, as Secretary Austin desires.

I think US policy since the end of the cold war to the point of invasion was naive and foolish. We are involved in a war because of that policy. Ukraine is not the Baltics, nor is it Poland, nor is it Germany.
 
Emotional weirdo want suicide by Nuke after defending country not America make Missouri too hot can't live no more
Never mind, I checked it out. AUMF. I see no reason for boots on the ground or in the sky or galoshes in the water. Then again, I don’t think it hurts for Putin to see us talking about it as an option.
 
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You're a little slow on the uptake here Marv.

His argument is that it doesn't mean all that much whether or not not "Russia has the right to march into Ukraine". The question he has argued/debated is what Russia WOULD do, not what Russia SHOULD do, were Georgia & Ukraine to continue on their path toward NATO membership. He noted that Putin previously tore the crap out of Georgia, and predicted he would do the same to Ukraine. He was predicting this outcome in 2006. And he's been proven correct.

This goes back to Biden's punking of Putin in the election, and the two pronouncements from on high of US policy concerning Ukraine in September & November of 2021. . He is and always has been a simplistic fool. And Obama was of the same ilk.

Why don't we look at what we have to show for it.........maybe 20000 Russian dead, maybe another 20000 Ukrainians dead (civilian & military), trillions of $ of US aid, and threats of nuclear war.

But what the hell.....we won the high school civics debate.

Oops....forgot the 5 million refugees.
Why does Russia have the right to tell Ukraine what to do? I get how the Russians don't like it that NATO is expanding East, but if they don't want it to happen, then give them good reasons for them not to join NATO from economic standpoints. Pay for lobbyists to Rah-Rah the Russian way and prove that it is more beneficial for them to be friends with Russia than being friends with NATO.

When things don't go your way, that does not give you the right to invade and bomb the populace. It means you failed in your messaging and your arguments sucked. It's the equivalent of not winning a verbal argument, so you whip out your gun and shoot the guy instead (you win the argument if the other guy is dead, right?).

I did get through most of that article, and this one jumped out at me:

"After all, the United States does not tolerate distant great powers deploying military forces anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, much less on its borders. Imagine the outrage in Washington if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico in it"

So, if over the next 50 years Canada becomes friendlier with China and let's say forms their own exclusive economic trade agreement with them (Heck, with the turmoil of our economy and our political upheaval, it really isn't that much of a stretch...). 10 years later, they allow China to have a naval base there. By this logic, we are now allowed to invade Canada? We get to annex Vancouver island? We get to lob cruise missiles at Toronto?
 
- Said the people in Afghanistan.
As bad as that was...and it was, it doesn't move the needle on what trump did and is capable of doing. We would be terrified if he were still in power as the Putin thing unfolds. That, and we would still be mired deep in covid disaster.
 
Why does Russia have the right to tell Ukraine what to do? I get how the Russians don't like it that NATO is expanding East, but if they don't want it to happen, then give them good reasons for them not to join NATO from economic standpoints. Pay for lobbyists to Rah-Rah the Russian way and prove that it is more beneficial for them to be friends with Russia than being friends with NATO.

When things don't go your way, that does not give you the right to invade and bomb the populace. It means you failed in your messaging and your arguments sucked. It's the equivalent of not winning a verbal argument, so you whip out your gun and shoot the guy instead (you win the argument if the other guy is dead, right?).

I did get through most of that article, and this one jumped out at me:

"After all, the United States does not tolerate distant great powers deploying military forces anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, much less on its borders. Imagine the outrage in Washington if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico in it"

So, if over the next 50 years Canada becomes friendlier with China and let's say forms their own exclusive economic trade agreement with them (Heck, with the turmoil of our economy and our political upheaval, it really isn't that much of a stretch...). 10 years later, they allow China to have a naval base there. By this logic, we are now allowed to invade Canada? We get to annex Vancouver island? We get to lob cruise missiles at Toronto?

And that paragraph ignores Cuba and Venezuela. Yes, we have economic restrictions on both and frankly they should be lifted (especially Cuba). But no Americans are invading either country.
 
You continually support a man over and over who on any ranking of presidents you can find is considered the third or fourth worse in history with only Buchanan, Johnson (Andrew), and Pierce below him. And in the years to come will be also considered the most corrupt president ever.

Agreeing with his policies is your right but you choose to ignore actual facts Trump increased the national debt $7.8 trillion in his 4 years, submitted in 2020 the largest spending bill in American history and played golf 307 days of his term. Only 4 year president since Hoover 90 years ago losing the house, senate and presidency in the process. He lied about a disease that has killed over 900,000 people (its really bad, its a killer Bob), lied about a stolen election for a year, wanted to shoot protesters in the legs, had 10 people he appointed involved in his presidency who were charged with a felony (want their names, Manafort-Flynn-Gates-Bannon etc.) 6 cabinet members resigned for unethical conduct, gave a speech to a mob to march on the capital, and then sat on his fat behind for three hours watching it on TV while they broke down doors and windows, urinated on the walls and crapped on the floor. And worse of all in that process became the first president ever to attempt to overturn an election that some how does not seem to matter to you.

I would like to think you are a better person than that.
Keep watching msm it's serving you well lmao. The article clearly states:

Biden's Democratic colleagues have long opposed the project (Nordstream) not principally because it hands Russia an economic advantage over its European neighbors but because it could cause the US significant foreign-policy problems in the future.

Chief among those problems are fears that Nord Stream 2 could liberate Russia to invade Ukraine — a US and EU ally — where Putin annexed Crimea in 2014.

Yea thanks Don he wasn't gonna let that happen. Trumps morning sh!ts are equal to the best Biden has done for this country and thats being gracious. I would take Trump back in a heartbeat.
 
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We'll see how it plays out in terms of drawing attention to himself. Long term. Opportunistic. His position in Ukraine is mental. And no I don't like him.

And i am hardly far right. I voted Dem more than republican. But you are a one trick pony. Go fight with Danc. You have a long way to go to get to even with him.
You clearly don't know the meaning of "opportunistic." And look in the mirror before calling someone else unhinged. Your frequent rants here, against cosmic and others, are embarrassing. Of course, I'm sure that's not reflective of your true personality. 😄
 
You clearly don't know the meaning of "opportunistic." And look in the mirror before calling someone else unhinged. Your frequent rants here, against cosmic and others, are embarrassing. Of course, I'm sure that's not reflective of your true personality. 😄
You clearly don't know the meaning of "opportunistic." And look in the mirror before calling someone else unhinged. Your frequent rants here, against cosmic and others, are embarrassing. Of course, I'm sure that's not reflective of your true personality. 😄
He'll parlay it into something else. Watch. Opportunistic. Yes your 800 pages of back forth with Danc owning you are a credit to the board. You aren't smart. You aren't funny. Your posts are never entertaining. Just a hyper partisan douche bag that's too stupid to have an ounce of self awareness to realize it.

As I said. Go back to chasing Danc. He's pulling farther and farther away. Or post under your Hickory account. Whatever.
 
He'll parlay it into something else. Watch. Yes your 800 pages of back forth with Danc owning you are a credit to the board. You aren't smart. You aren't funny. Your posts are never entertaining. Just a hyper partisan douche bag that's too stupid to have an ounce of self awareness.

As I said. Go back to chasing Danc. He's pulling farther and farther away. Or post under your Hickory account. Whatever.
The question is did he get saved?
 
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