A frightening survey

[Marvin the Martian]

A survey was done of Americans on the government and politics. Some takeaways, bolding is mine.

Third is growing uncertainty about the stability and value of democracy in the US. Most Americans across the political spectrum now perceive a serious threat to democracy in the US.5, 6 At the same time, nearly 70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”7 Approximately 20% of Republicans, conservatives, and voters for Donald Trump (and 9% of Democrats, liberals, and voters for Joe Biden) disagree with the statement that “democracy is [the] best form of government.”8​

​

Fourth is the expansion into the mainstream of American public opinion of extreme, false beliefs about American society. Approximately 1 adult in 5 endorses the core elements of the Q-Anon belief complex, that “government, media, and financial worlds in the US are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles” (16%) and that “there is a storm coming soon that will sweep away the elites in power and restore the rightful leaders” (22%).9 Nearly 1 adult in 3 (32%) endorses the assertion that “a group of people in this country [is] trying to replace native-born Americans with immigrants.”10​

​

Fifth is growing support for the use of violence to accomplish political or social objectives. More than a third (36%) of American adults (56% of Republicans and 22% of Democrats) agree that “the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.”7 Nearly one-fifth of adults (18%) agree that “because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.”9​

​

More than two-thirds of respondents (67.2%, 95% CI 66.1%-68.4%) perceived “a serious threat to our democracy,” and 88.8% believed it is very or extremely important “for the United States to remain a democracy” (Table 2). But at the same time, 42.4% agreed with the statement that “having a strong leader for America is more important than having a democracy”; 19.0% agreed strongly or very strongly.​

Views of American Democracy and Society and Support for Political Violence: First Report from a Nationwide Population-Representative Survey

Background Several social trends in the United States (US) suggest an increasing risk for political violence. Little is known about support for and personal willingness to engage in political violence and how those measures vary with lethality of violence, specific circumstances, or specific...

www.medrxiv.org

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Approximately 20% of Republicans, conservatives, and voters for Donald Trump (and 9% of Democrats, liberals, and voters for Joe Biden) disagree with the statement that “democracy is [the] best form of government.”

Those numbers seem low, TBH.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Those numbers seem low, TBH.

Juxtapose this conversation with the one we are having in the Jan 6th hearings thread and maybe where I am coming from makes more sense.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

This is why I contribute to, participate in, and recommend joining Braver Angels.

Braverangels.org

It is also why people should stop polarizing personal attacks whenever they can, including on this board. Such posts don’t persuade anyone, they just pollute the political and discursive environment, further normalizing that behavior.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Juxtapose this conversation with the one we are having in the Jan 6th hearings thread and maybe where I am coming from makes more sense.

Afraid not.

 

[Cortez88]

Juxtapose this conversation with the one we are having in the Jan 6th hearings thread and maybe where I am coming from makes more sense.

You’ll have to expand on this.

 

[IUCrazy2]

You’ll have to expand on this.

Goat called the hearings a "wet fart" I believe in the other thread. Are we going to set off a revenge cycle for a wet fart?

1/3 of the country is waiting for the ok to start shooting people and some of you apparently think lighting the match and throwing it on the gasoline and saying "f--- you, you deserve it" is the most prudent action. And you know what, to a certain extent I get it because there is a segment of the opposite side of the aisle who I think deserves it too. But the burn pile is in the middle of my house too. Seems like an awfully big risk on a wet fart f you.

 

[outside shooter]

1/3 of the country is waiting for the ok to start shooting people and some of you apparently think lighting the match and throwing it on the gasoline and saying "f--- you, you deserve it" is the most prudent action.

That's kind of ironic for you to say that, since much of last night was all about POTUS lighting the match and throwing it on the gasoline and saying "f--- you, you deserve it, Pence".

Witnesses who were WITH Trump in the White house described it in EXACTLY those terms, as Trump pouring gasoline on a fire. An act that made them immediately decide to resign.

 

[Cortez88]

Goat called the hearings a "wet fart" I believe in the other thread. Are we going to set off a revenge cycle for a wet fart?

1/3 of the country is waiting for the ok to start shooting people and some of you apparently think lighting the match and throwing it on the gasoline and saying "f--- you, you deserve it" is the most prudent action. And you know what, to a certain extent I get it because there is a segment of the opposite side of the aisle who I think deserves it too. But the burn pile is in the middle of my house too. Seems like an awfully big risk on a wet fart f you.

I understand where you and Goat are coming from here. I admit I’m not sure what the best course is given this hyper partisan and divisive climate. I do struggle with how much as a country we can simply let go when it impacts the very foundation of our democracy. This is not a party thing for me, it’s a country thing.

 

[bailey777]

This is why I contribute to, participate in, and recommend joining Braver Angels.

Braverangels.org

It is also why people should stop polarizing personal attacks whenever they can, including on this board. Such posts don’t persuade anyone, they just pollute the political and discursive environment, further normalizing that behavior.

People would be best to stay off places like twitter. It if filled with toxic hateful nutjobs. I suppose its ok for maybe sports but any politics on twitter is reserved for crazy people.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I understand where you and Goat are coming from here. I admit I’m not sure what the best course is given this hyper partisan and divisive climate. I do struggle with how much as a country we can simply let go when it impacts the very foundation of our democracy. This is not a party thing for me, it’s a country thing.

I'm not sure the partisans on either side can see the difference you mention in your last sentence.

 

[IUCrazy2]

That's kind of ironic for you to say that, since much of last night was all about POTUS lighting the match and throwing it on the gasoline and saying "f--- you, you deserve it, Pence".

Witnesses who were WITH Trump in the White house described it in EXACTLY those terms, as Trump pouring gasoline on a fire. An act that made them immediately decide to resign.

Cool bro. I never started watching so thanks for the recap.

Where do you see the end game going? Trump gets arrested. They perp walk him on TV and you all get your "we got him" boners and then? What?

He gets a trial in Congress. He is allowed to put forward a defense. What do you think that will be? If he is the great Satan that you guys think he is, what option does he have left? Or do you think this ends up in regular old court? (No f'ing way) If it does then it invariably goes to the Supreme Court. You aren't throwing a President in jail in a D.C. circuit Court. So now it is before the group of 9. 6 conservatives and 3 liberals. What kind of precedent do you think they will want to set? I don't think they will want to touch it with a 1,000 foot pole.

And if the Supremes do take it up and decide there is not enough there to throw him in jail, then what? And if it goes to Congress and we have an election and the GOP is in charge and they push it aside and say this is done, then what?

Think it through. I have thought through how this all looks at the end of a couple different paths and most of them end poorly for all of us. I think many of you haven't thought past your schaden-boner of seeing Trump getting charged.

 

[Bowlmania]

Cool bro. I never started watching so thanks for the recap.

Where do you see the end game going? Trump gets arrested. They perp walk him on TV and you all get your "we got him" boners and then? What?

He gets a trial in Congress. He is allowed to put forward a defense. What do you think that will be? If he is the great Satan that you guys think he is, what option does he have left? Or do you think this ends up in regular old court? (No f'ing way) If it does then it invariably goes to the Supreme Court. You aren't throwing a President in jail in a D.C. circuit Court. So now it is before the group of 9. 6 conservatives and 3 liberals. What kind of precedent do you think they will want to set? I don't think they will want to touch it with a 1,000 foot pole.

And if the Supremes do take it up and decide there is not enough there to throw him in jail, then what? And if it goes to Congress and we have an election and the GOP is in charge and they push it aside and say this is done, then what?

Think it through. I have thought through how this all looks at the end of a couple different paths and most of them end poorly for all of us. I think many of you haven't thought past your schaden-boner of seeing Trump getting charged.

First, there won't be a "trial" in Congress. Cases are tried in court, not Congress. We witnessed Trump's impeachment "trials," but that's simply a term for the Senate's review and decision with respect to the House's articles of impeachment. The term "trial" is particularly farcical in the context of Trump's impeachments since Senate Republicans wouldn't allow witnesses to be called.

Next, if he's indicted in Fulton County GA, and the prosecution has no nexus with federal and/or constitutional law, the US Supreme Court would be without jurisdiction. And even a prosecution in federal court is hardly a guarantee that it ends up in the Supreme Court irrespective of the fact that he was president.

Trump corruptly and illegally attempted to steal an election. He conspired to defraud the United States and to obstruct an official proceeding of Congress. He did nothing for over three hours while a violent mob attacked our seat of democracy and went hunting for his vice president. SOB needs to be indicted.

 

[IUCrazy2]

First, there won't be a "trial" in Congress. Cases are tried in court, not Congress. We witnessed Trump's impeachment "trials," but that's simply a term for the Senate's review and decision with respect to the House's articles of impeachment. The term "trial" is particularly farcical in the context of Trump's impeachments since Senate Republicans wouldn't allow witnesses to be called.

Next, if he's indicted in Fulton County GA, and the prosecution has no nexus with federal and/or constitutional law, the US Supreme Court would be without jurisdiction. And even a prosecution in federal court is hardly a guarantee that it ends up in the Supreme Court irrespective of the fact that he was president.

Trump corruptly and illegally attempted to steal an election. He conspired to defraud the United States and to obstruct an official proceeding of Congress. He did nothing for over three hours while a violent mob attacked our seat of democracy and went hunting for his vice president. SOB needs to be indicted.

Your whole middle paragraph is you deluding yourself as to how this would go.

 

[bawlmer]

Juxtapose this conversation with the one we are having in the Jan 6th hearings thread and maybe where I am coming from makes more sense.

Seems to me people who used to be a large majority have less faith in democracy and government as their majority shrinks. Having a hard time finding much legitimacy in that.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

That's kind of ironic for you to say that, since much of last night was all about POTUS lighting the match and throwing it on the gasoline and saying "f--- you, you deserve it, Pence".

Witnesses who were WITH Trump in the White house described it in EXACTLY those terms, as Trump pouring gasoline on a fire. An act that made them immediately decide to resign.

Your ability to miss the point is epic.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

This is why I contribute to, participate in, and recommend joining Braver Angels.

Braverangels.org

It is also why people should stop polarizing personal attacks whenever they can, including on this board. Such posts don’t persuade anyone, they just pollute the political and discursive environment, further normalizing that behavior.

It's hillarious that all of your reactions (likes) are from libs. It screams "ok we hozed you for 4 years, but can you be nicer now". argggh. NOPE

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

People would be best to stay off places like twitter. It if filled with toxic hateful nutjobs. I suppose its ok for maybe sports but any politics on twitter is reserved for crazy people.

Better let dmbhoosier in on this little life hack.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

A survey was done of Americans on the government and politics. Some takeaways, bolding is mine.

Third is growing uncertainty about the stability and value of democracy in the US. Most Americans across the political spectrum now perceive a serious threat to democracy in the US.5, 6 At the same time, nearly 70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”7 Approximately 20% of Republicans, conservatives, and voters for Donald Trump (and 9% of Democrats, liberals, and voters for Joe Biden) disagree with the statement that “democracy is [the] best form of government.”8​

​

Fourth is the expansion into the mainstream of American public opinion of extreme, false beliefs about American society. Approximately 1 adult in 5 endorses the core elements of the Q-Anon belief complex, that “government, media, and financial worlds in the US are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles” (16%) and that “there is a storm coming soon that will sweep away the elites in power and restore the rightful leaders” (22%).9 Nearly 1 adult in 3 (32%) endorses the assertion that “a group of people in this country [is] trying to replace native-born Americans with immigrants.”10​

​

Fifth is growing support for the use of violence to accomplish political or social objectives. More than a third (36%) of American adults (56% of Republicans and 22% of Democrats) agree that “the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.”7 Nearly one-fifth of adults (18%) agree that “because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.”9​

​

More than two-thirds of respondents (67.2%, 95% CI 66.1%-68.4%) perceived “a serious threat to our democracy,” and 88.8% believed it is very or extremely important “for the United States to remain a democracy” (Table 2). But at the same time, 42.4% agreed with the statement that “having a strong leader for America is more important than having a democracy”; 19.0% agreed strongly or very strongly.​

Views of American Democracy and Society and Support for Political Violence: First Report from a Nationwide Population-Representative Survey

Background Several social trends in the United States (US) suggest an increasing risk for political violence. Little is known about support for and personal willingness to engage in political violence and how those measures vary with lethality of violence, specific circumstances, or specific...

www.medrxiv.org

Having great difficulty believing 1/5 of adults believe QAnon type hoaxes.

 

[Univee2]

Having great difficulty believing 1/5 of adults believe QAnon type hoaxes.

People jack around with these goofy surveys all the time.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Having great difficulty believing 1/5 of adults believe QAnon type hoaxes.

You need to get out more.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Having great difficulty believing 1/5 of adults believe QAnon type hoaxes.

Yeah, I find it impossible to believe that twice as many Trump voters as Biden voters have a negative view of democracy, unless democracy in this case has some weird alternative meaning like democratic socialism.

Democrats have been trending toward socialism for years. That’s irrefutable.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yeah, I find it impossible to believe that twice as many Trump voters as Biden voters have a negative view of democracy, unless democracy in this case has some weird alternative meaning like democratic socialism.

Democrats have been trending toward socialism for years. That’s irrefutable.

Why is it hard to believe? Trump isn't in office. Of course his supporters are more likely to feel like the system failed them than the supporters of the guy who actually got the keys.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Why is it hard to believe? Trump isn't in office. Of course his supporters are more likely to feel like the system failed them than the supporters of the guy who actually got the keys.

The question that more than twice as many Trump supporters as Biden supporters supposedly disagreed with was “democracy is the best form of government”.

You believe that Trumps situation would lead that many of his voters to give up on democracy altogether?

I don’t.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Yeah, I find it impossible to believe that twice as many Trump voters as Biden voters have a negative view of democracy, unless democracy in this case has some weird alternative meaning like democratic socialism.

Democrats have been trending toward socialism for years. That’s irrefutable.

Many Trump voters think democracy is broken because they believe the Big Lie. And I don’t believe it’s irrefutable that Democrats have been trending toward socialism.

 

[NPT]

I understand where you and Goat are coming from here. I admit I’m not sure what the best course is given this hyper partisan and divisive climate. I do struggle with how much as a country we can simply let go when it impacts the very foundation of our democracy. This is not a party thing for me, it’s a country thing.

If the people in Washington would lead by example I think things would get better.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Many Trump voters think democracy is broken because they believe the Big Lie. And I don’t believe it’s irrefutable that Democrats have been trending toward socialism.

Well, you’re just wrong, Zeke. This poll was from 4 years ago.

Democrats More Positive About Socialism Than Capitalism

Democrats' positive views of capitalism have dropped significantly, and Democrats now view socialism more positively.

news.gallup.com

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The question that more than twice as many Trump supporters as Biden supporters supposedly disagreed with was “democracy is the best form of government”.

You believe that Trumps situation would lead that many of his voters to give up on democracy altogether?

I don’t.

It might not make that many people give up on democracy altogether, but I can totally see it making them claim as such to a pollster.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Well, you’re just wrong, Zeke. This poll was from 4 years ago.

Democrats More Positive About Socialism Than Capitalism

Democrats' positive views of capitalism have dropped significantly, and Democrats now view socialism more positively.

news.gallup.com

I think an awful lot of people don’t understand the definitions of capitalism and socialism.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I understand where you and Goat are coming from here. I admit I’m not sure what the best course is given this hyper partisan and divisive climate. I do struggle with how much as a country we can simply let go when it impacts the very foundation of our democracy. This is not a party thing for me, it’s a country thing.

To be clear, I'm not coming from IUCrazy's place on this. I simply said I thought last night's hearing was a bit of a disappointment. I vehemently disagree with him that the weakening of the trustworthiness of democracy in the minds of Trump supporters should have any bearing on how or if Trump is punished for his actions. Doing that would effectively be admitting that democracy lost and the Trumpistas won, in a sense. If the legal and moral thing to do is to string him up, then we can't be held hostage and prevented from doing so by his jackass cult.

 

[Cortez88]

Yeah, I find it impossible to believe that twice as many Trump voters as Biden voters have a negative view of democracy, unless democracy in this case has some weird alternative meaning like democratic socialism.

Democrats have been trending toward socialism for years. That’s irrefutable.

There are a lot of anti democratic ideals in MAGA and Trumpism. I mean, if you just want your guy to be charge regardless of election results, you are pretty much done with democracy right?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The question that more than twice as many Trump supporters as Biden supporters supposedly disagreed with was “democracy is the best form of government”.

You believe that Trumps situation would lead that many of his voters to give up on democracy altogether?

I don’t.

Think of it a different way, conservatives love a republic, liberals love a democracy.

Take a look at Co, he wants to return to senators being appointed and not elected. That isn't democratic.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Think of it a different way, conservatives love a republic, liberals love a democracy.

Take a look at Co, he wants to return to senators being appointed and not elected. That isn't democratic.

I don't think anyone really likes democracy. Conservatives want institutions that protect the established order from radical democracy. The Senate is good for that. Liberals want institutions that protect individual rights from the passions of the mob. Courts are good for that. But no one truly wants unfettered democracy.

 

[Bowlmania]

Your whole middle paragraph is you deluding yourself as to how this would go.

What's inaccurate about it?

 

[hoosboot]

Better let dmbhoosier in on this little life hack.

You mean he wasn't talking about dmb in his post?

 

[hoosboot]

Well, you’re just wrong, Zeke. This poll was from 4 years ago.

Democrats More Positive About Socialism Than Capitalism

Democrats' positive views of capitalism have dropped significantly, and Democrats now view socialism more positively.

news.gallup.com

How do socialism and capitalism figure in a conversation about democracy?

 

[IUCrazy2]

Having great difficulty believing 1/5 of adults believe QAnon type hoaxes.

20%ish was those who thought we were run by Satanic Pedophiles right? I mean, I can see that many people thinking that on grounds that have nothing to do with Qanon. Depending on how you define things.

Well, you’re just wrong, Zeke. This poll was from 4 years ago.

Democrats More Positive About Socialism Than Capitalism

Democrats' positive views of capitalism have dropped significantly, and Democrats now view socialism more positively.

news.gallup.com

To clarify though socialism is an economic system that is usually enforced by rather non-democratic governments. You can find instances of semi-socialism at times in places like Europe but they are even still mostly capitalist societies.

 

[IUCrazy2]

To be clear, I'm not coming from IUCrazy's place on this. I simply said I thought last night's hearing was a bit of a disappointment. I vehemently disagree with him that the weakening of the trustworthiness of democracy in the minds of Trump supporters should have any bearing on how or if Trump is punished for his actions. Doing that would effectively be admitting that democracy lost and the Trumpistas won, in a sense. If the legal and moral thing to do is to string him up, then we can't be held hostage and prevented from doing so by his jackass cult.

Oh come on Goat. Come to the dark side.

I don't think you completely have my argument though. I don't think there is a compelling enough case to blow things up by trying to prosecute him. To wit, I don't believe this was a coup. I think it was a protest that got out of hand and he kind of felt like, f you guys payback is a bitch and he just let it go. I have enough to not want him to be the Republican nominee again. I don't think they have enough to prosecute him and anything they do attempt at this point would blow up in all our faces either because of the act itself or because of what failure to lock him up would mean to those so invested in that.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

or because of what failure to lock him up would mean to those so invested in that.

And I think this quote shows that I do have your argument down, and this is the part I vehemently disagree with. I refuse to cow to these people. They truly want a civil war? F*cking give it to them. Backing off for fear of it just means they get what they want without putting anything on the line.

 

[IUCrazy2]

And I think this quote shows that I do have your argument down, and this is the part I vehemently disagree with. I refuse to cow to these people. They truly want a civil war? F*cking give it to them. Backing off for fear of it just means they get what they want without putting anything on the line.

Who are these people? Those mad about a failure to convict would not be Trumpy's. They would be lefties.

There is not enough "there" there to convict based on what I have read (I haven't watched any of it). If we are going to risk the things I have brought up, they have to come with a hell of a lot more than they have.