Historically, democracies have been fragile and fleeting. Ours has already lasted for a relatively long time. There are no guarantees.A survey was done of Americans on the government and politics. Some takeaways, bolding is mine.
Third is growing uncertainty about the stability and value of democracy in the US. Most Americans across the political spectrum now perceive a serious threat to democracy in the US.5, 6 At the same time, nearly 70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”7 Approximately 20% of Republicans, conservatives, and voters for Donald Trump (and 9% of Democrats, liberals, and voters for Joe Biden) disagree with the statement that “democracy is [the] best form of government.”8Fourth is the expansion into the mainstream of American public opinion of extreme, false beliefs about American society. Approximately 1 adult in 5 endorses the core elements of the Q-Anon belief complex, that “government, media, and financial worlds in the US are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles” (16%) and that “there is a storm coming soon that will sweep away the elites in power and restore the rightful leaders” (22%).9 Nearly 1 adult in 3 (32%) endorses the assertion that “a group of people in this country [is] trying to replace native-born Americans with immigrants.”10Fifth is growing support for the use of violence to accomplish political or social objectives. More than a third (36%) of American adults (56% of Republicans and 22% of Democrats) agree that “the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.”7 Nearly one-fifth of adults (18%) agree that “because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.”9More than two-thirds of respondents (67.2%, 95% CI 66.1%-68.4%) perceived “a serious threat to our democracy,” and 88.8% believed it is very or extremely important “for the United States to remain a democracy” (Table 2). But at the same time, 42.4% agreed with the statement that “having a strong leader for America is more important than having a democracy”; 19.0% agreed strongly or very strongly.
Views of American Democracy and Society and Support for Political Violence: First Report from a Nationwide Population-Representative Survey
Background Several social trends in the United States (US) suggest an increasing risk for political violence. Little is known about support for and personal willingness to engage in political violence and how those measures vary with lethality of violence, specific circumstances, or specific...www.medrxiv.org
A frightening survey
- Thread starter Marvin the Martian
- Start date
Good grief. Now, you're going to pretend it's the lefties you were scared of all the time? How are they going to find time to protest when they are too busy ruining our economy by creating full employment?
I am "scared" (I don't think that is the correct word) that there is no good outcome because the case is not solid and no matter how it goes it tears things apart. Either way ends up with somebody acting out in some fashion (that does not have to be violent) that is detrimental.
You are doing a good job of misconstruing my arguments today given the last sentence. So to that end I think I am taking a break from the convo.
“70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”
Worrisome, but expected. This has been taught by Woodstock Nation educators since the 1980’s. The dumb have ignored their own experience and believed it.
“More than a third (36%) of American adults (56% of Republicans and 22% of Democrats) agree that “the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.”
Not violence, but definitely law and order.
Worrisome, but expected. This has been taught by Woodstock Nation educators since the 1980’s. The dumb have ignored their own experience and believed it.
“More than a third (36%) of American adults (56% of Republicans and 22% of Democrats) agree that “the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.”
Not violence, but definitely law and order.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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I get out a lot. I literally know nobody who believes that stuff. My guess is the question was confusingly worded or people are just screwing with the pollsters.
Half my family believes that nonsense. How are you avoiding these crazies? I need some pointers.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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I don’t even know what to say. My MIL is a super annoying Trumper but she doesn’t believe that shit. She does think the election was stolen.
Well, at least we now know why Goat believes everybody else in the world believes stupid shit.
Okay, maybe my family doesn't actually believe ALL the Q stuff. But they still share it all, and make snide references to pedos, and they all think the Deep State is a very real, very Democrat thing intent on destroying America. These are not normal people. And I talk to them all the time. A guy I worked with a few months ago said the reason he didn't get the Covid shot was because his doctor told him it was a government conspiracy to kill people, and everyone who got the shot would have a stroke six months later. A goddamn doctor.
You'd think this stuff wouldn't matter with the masses, because politics is supposed to be local. They care about the cost of bread and gas, not what the elites are doing in DC. But right now, a lot of them really do care. They don't understand any of it, or know anything beyond the nonsense that's piped into the brains by talk radio, but they very much care.
Myself, and those I run into on a daily bases, do agree there's a deep state. We/They do not believe its a democrate thing, it's a tenured bureaucrat thing. We do not think it is intent to destroy America (they don't want to shit where they eat) but by them being tenured it will eventually be the thing that destroys America.
We are as close right now as ever before, that a group of them, of what ever size, has carved out enough influence that they are maintaining their own official as well as unofficial power as required to remain. Example, James Clapper. Killary Hinton.
Good move, particularly since you haven't watched a minute of the hearings.
A survey was done of Americans on the government and politics. Some takeaways, bolding is mine.
Third is growing uncertainty about the stability and value of democracy in the US. Most Americans across the political spectrum now perceive a serious threat to democracy in the US.5, 6 At the same time, nearly 70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”7 Approximately 20% of Republicans, conservatives, and voters for Donald Trump (and 9% of Democrats, liberals, and voters for Joe Biden) disagree with the statement that “democracy is [the] best form of government.”8Fourth is the expansion into the mainstream of American public opinion of extreme, false beliefs about American society. Approximately 1 adult in 5 endorses the core elements of the Q-Anon belief complex, that “government, media, and financial worlds in the US are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles” (16%) and that “there is a storm coming soon that will sweep away the elites in power and restore the rightful leaders” (22%).9 Nearly 1 adult in 3 (32%) endorses the assertion that “a group of people in this country [is] trying to replace native-born Americans with immigrants.”10Fifth is growing support for the use of violence to accomplish political or social objectives. More than a third (36%) of American adults (56% of Republicans and 22% of Democrats) agree that “the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.”7 Nearly one-fifth of adults (18%) agree that “because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.”9More than two-thirds of respondents (67.2%, 95% CI 66.1%-68.4%) perceived “a serious threat to our democracy,” and 88.8% believed it is very or extremely important “for the United States to remain a democracy” (Table 2). But at the same time, 42.4% agreed with the statement that “having a strong leader for America is more important than having a democracy”; 19.0% agreed strongly or very strongly.
Views of American Democracy and Society and Support for Political Violence: First Report from a Nationwide Population-Representative Survey
Background Several social trends in the United States (US) suggest an increasing risk for political violence. Little is known about support for and personal willingness to engage in political violence and how those measures vary with lethality of violence, specific circumstances, or specific...
“democracy is [the] best form of government.”8
democrats (the mob rule) in Athens forced Socrates to drink hemlock (essentially for his personal practice of free speech (criticizing others, unsympathetically)). The black stones used in Athens … became black balls in Masonic lodges and Frat houses alike.
The US is a republic … where in the best tradition (and best practice (ideal) in my opinion) is for representatives to represent the interests of their constituents, and leave partisan rabble rousing and caterwauling at the door.
I can relate to those who took a literal view of a small ”d” democracy as not the best answer, because it’s what the framers of the constitution thought. Indeed, one of motivations for the Senate, was to provide a balance for the passion and ferver of representatives directly elected by the mob. (Shortly thereafter, mob rule made the French Revolution hell on earth).
Without the context intended (used by the respondents) behind ”small d democracy“, presuming ill of those who said “no“ is prejudging them.
Much of the rhetoric about threats to democracy, come off to me as hypocritical emotional appeals.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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There is 100% a deep state but I agree it’s not a conspiratorial liberal phenomena. It’s more of a group of people that have never worked anywhere else and keep things running their way. They hate change.
I have many social media friends and relatives who are big Trumpers and post QAnon crap ALL THE TIME. Only the ones from Indiana, though.
I just dont believe you have any friends. if she is your sister she already has missed out on that boat.
Your nuance is well taken and appreciated.
The rabble exist in a world without nuance. To them democracy means the way the US has been governed up to now. It is truly as simple as that. Republic schmepublic. Cap D schmap schmee.
The notion of a threat to democracy (i.e., a free society) is real. Just look around the world at the dictatorships and not-infrequent coups. Taking for granted what we have is the first step on the way to losing it.
Yes and honestly one of the ways to start to "fix" some things would be to go back to the less democratic (small d) and more republican (little r) manner in which we picked senators by repealing the 17th amendment. That would kick the picking of those positions back to state legislatures.
It is my opinion that our current popular election method almost ensures that we do not get the best and brightest for our representatives because many of the best and brightest are ruled out by the nature of these things. Too unattractive, not charismatic enough, not willing to have their personal lives gone through to find every misstep in their lives, etc.
The Senate is currently just a longer tenured version of the House which is not what it was initially intended to be. Let the state legislatures pick Senators again and maybe curb their terms to 3 (18 years) and you might start to see a little bit of the gridlock break up as the people who like to hear themselves talk become a little less important than the people who know how to get things done.
You’re not facing the problem and your solution is not a solution. The basic problem is quality of citizenry. Solve that.
I understand that is the apparency. The powers-that-be want you to think that. Keeps you a pawn in their game.
If you think people with intelligence are going spend time doing surveys, you're sorely missing the bias of these.
Seriously, I think people who are engaged should want to take surveys. It is a rare opportunity to be heard.
And those groups aren't smart? My guess is they skew toward people with landlines as surveys cannot machine dial cell phones, landlines are still important to surveys.
Relatively speaking, no they aren't. Do you not think there is a correlation between IQ and income?
If those surveys are completed by groups with landlines, that means they skew even heavier towards lower intelligence and older people. Older people with landlines that are smart and still working aren't wasting their time with a survey.
Our Founders were turning in their graves when the survey given to us by MtM reported the following...A survey was done of Americans on the government and politics. Some takeaways, bolding is mine.
Third is growing uncertainty about the stability and value of democracy in the US. Most Americans across the political spectrum now perceive a serious threat to democracy in the US.5, 6 At the same time, nearly 70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”7 Approximately 20% of Republicans, conservatives, and voters for Donald Trump (and 9% of Democrats, liberals, and voters for Joe Biden) disagree with the statement that “democracy is [the] best form of government.”8Fourth is the expansion into the mainstream of American public opinion of extreme, false beliefs about American society. Approximately 1 adult in 5 endorses the core elements of the Q-Anon belief complex, that “government, media, and financial worlds in the US are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles” (16%) and that “there is a storm coming soon that will sweep away the elites in power and restore the rightful leaders” (22%).9 Nearly 1 adult in 3 (32%) endorses the assertion that “a group of people in this country [is] trying to replace native-born Americans with immigrants.”10Fifth is growing support for the use of violence to accomplish political or social objectives. More than a third (36%) of American adults (56% of Republicans and 22% of Democrats) agree that “the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.”7 Nearly one-fifth of adults (18%) agree that “because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.”9More than two-thirds of respondents (67.2%, 95% CI 66.1%-68.4%) perceived “a serious threat to our democracy,” and 88.8% believed it is very or extremely important “for the United States to remain a democracy” (Table 2). But at the same time, 42.4% agreed with the statement that “having a strong leader for America is more important than having a democracy”; 19.0% agreed strongly or very strongly.
Views of American Democracy and Society and Support for Political Violence: First Report from a Nationwide Population-Representative Survey
Background Several social trends in the United States (US) suggest an increasing risk for political violence. Little is known about support for and personal willingness to engage in political violence and how those measures vary with lethality of violence, specific circumstances, or specific...
But at the same time, 42.4% agreed with the statement that “having a strong leader for America is more important than having a democracy”; 19.0% agreed strongly or very strongly.
One of the great fears of the Founders could be slowly coming to pass as many Americans fail to share their concerns about authoritarian rule eroding democracy.
On the other hand, a "strong leader" doesn't have to mean someone who constantly belittles those with whom he disagrees and tries to make laws through Executive Orders. A strong leader could actually be someone who uses the bully pulpit to build a national consensus rather than shoring up his own ego by constantly stirring up mobs of partisan cohorts at political rallies.
Then again, my remarks above about building consensus through the bully pulpit may be just a naive fond hope given how divided politically we are as a nation. The exceptions being states and cities which one or the other party dominates. However, which is worse for democracy, a nation hopelessly divided, or state and local governments locked in the domain of a single party ?
Yep, and they take turns wiping each other EOs off the books.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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