Authoritarian government and conservatism are mutually exclusive. Read Burke and Hayek and get back to me.
"Hitler did a lot of good things"- Donald Trump, to his Chief of Staff
- Thread starter outside shooter
- Start date
Your post sounds pretty authoritarian and you’re supposedly a conservative, so Imma say I don’t gotta read nuthin’. You done refuted your own premise.
Wait - are you masqueradin’ as a conservative to hide the fact that you’re a bleedin‘ heart leftie???
The plot thickens …..
Well you're (lack of ) understanding of actual History in this post flirts with VPM level of ignorance. First off anti-immigration and extreme nationalism were basic tenets of Nazi ideology. Your first couple of paragraphs basically echo the claims the Nazis made regarding Jews and undesirable foreigners and the way they scapegoated them for the plight of the average German...
If you want to attack leftists for what you consider their "lack of tolerance" then come up with your own ideological reference and stop stealing references to Nazi/Fascist which are exclusive terms to describe right-wing ideologies. You can't name a "leftist" who believes in military rule or colonialism, and both are key elements of both Nazi and Fascist ideology. Both Hitler and Mussolini were rabid racists, Hitler in particular believed in Aryan biological superiority...
There were no right-wing opponents of either Hitler or Mussolini, the right in both Germany and Italy adored Hitler. The Military-Industrial complex, the Ruhr valley industrialists, the more authoritarian branches of both the Protestant and Catholic churches. Mussolini had allies within the Vatican, and in Spain Franco's biggest allies to his Fascist Govt were the Catholic Bishops...
The people imprisoned in Concentration Camps were Jews, Socialists, Communists, Gays, conscientious objectors, underground members, disillusioned soldiers, and politicians...
So labeling "leftists" who made up the greatest % of non-Jews persecuted by the Nazis as Nazis, is just total revisionist crap.
"That are out rioting about cancelling history and any idea they don't agree with and so much else that falls exactly in line with the real Nazi ideal but you can't see it."
Again when you accuse the left of "cancelling history" and equate that with Nazism, you completely ignore that the people who stage rallies against cancelling history (like removing Confederate statues) ARE actual NAZIS...
CPAC is meeting in Texas this weekend, with Republican Govs in attendance and Trump set to speak this evening. That makes it a GOP Mainstream event...
Yet also in attendance are Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, 2 groups that are being charged with Conspiracy for their part on Jan 6. So mainstream GOP is mingling with members of organizations who helped plan Jan 6...
White nationalist Nick Fuentes banned from annual gathering of top US conservatives but other far-right extremists were welcomed
White nationalist Nick Fuentes barred from the Conservative Political Action Conference in Dallas, but Oath Keepers and Proud Boys were in attendance.
CPAC did evict Nick Fuentes, who is an avowed White Supremacist. But not before he made this entrance, demonstrating how much of an extremist he is...
Again to their credit, CPAC evicted him. But the problem is Paul Gosar (GOP-AZ) is an associate of Fuentes and has just completed fundraising with him...
Twitter Bans White Nationalist Leader Nick Fuentes, Ally Of Arizona Republican Rep. Gosar
Fuentes is a prominent white nationalist who enjoyed a big following online--and captured the ear of a sitting congressman.
www.forbes.com
Again, the issue is which (MAINSTREAM) party has moved farther extreme. You won't find Dems actively associating with an avowed racist...
And yet for you, Antifa is a big bad boogie man, and they aren't even an organized group, unlike their Nazi counterparts. Antifa just shows up whenever Nazis/Fascists congregate.
Heather Heyer and the other counterdemonstrators in Charlottesville were locals. The KKK, Vanguard, and other Fascist groups who came to protest the Confederate statues being taken down were outsiders, invading a quiet, peaceful college community...The murderer Fields came from freaking Ohiotucky...
Zi Jiping and Kim Jong-un for openers.
That’s conventional wisdom, but it’s BS. Hitler was much closer to Stalin than Roosevelt. Nazis we’re all about concentration of power which is the opposite of one of the more important tenets of conservatism which is the division of power.
I have no clue what your point is about Fuentes. I don’t deny that conservatives are more nationalistic than Democrats, but I don’t see why that is bad. This whole “white nationalism” thing is just another way of saying conservatives or Republicans are racist, which dems have been saying for 60 years.
I'm definitely not the history expert on here in regards to the rise of the Nazi party but I'm pretty sure that trying to keep everyone healthy during a global health crisis is not an appropriate use of the term nor representative of Nazi ideals.
Sure, I don't that think that Nazi Germany was too keen on a free market society and wanted to consolidate absolute power to the state...which is where the socialism tie comes into play.
So the accusation is an exponential gaslight attempt. First the democratic party would have to be for a socialist state, which it's not. That's the right wing fear mongering to the low information republican voters. I've yet to see any Democrat or democratic party want to destroy democracy and destroy the free market society.
Mainly we argue that we want more tax revenue allocated to make us a healthier nation (health care reform) and to do our best to help people not live in poverty.
And yeah, we'd like people to stop being selfish assholes and treat everyone with some dignity (which you call cancel culture because republicans don't like having a minority social position so they claim to be victims for basically being an asshole and to be accountable and suffer any repercussions for being an asshole).
To connect it to Nazism because they were a socialist state is gaslighting squared (first accuse the left of being a socialist state then connect that Nazis were socialists).
The bigger question in this debate is why is the republican party the overwhelming favorite of actual Nazis?
Why is the republican party the overwhelming favorite of white supremacists?
Why is the republican party platform allergic to the black community?
The Nazi party was a fascist party. Who is the left's demagogue?
Right now the right is led by a single populous figure who has effectively used the demagogue playbook to accend to that position in the republican party. You know, the extreme nationalism, the villifing of the social elite, the devalidating of the press, the consolation of power, the refusal of bipartisanship, the scapegoating of the marginalized, the sole fixer of all the problems, the verbose declarations of strength, the rewarding and demanding of loyalty to the demagogue, the fear mongering of political enemies, etc.
That more describes current Trumpism.
That also describes fascism.
It's obvious the republican party can't reign in Trumpism.
So if any of you dudes wonder why we're mean on Trumpism...yeah, we're not digging the fascist (and nazi) vibes that's challenging American democracy.
Sure, I don't that think that Nazi Germany was too keen on a free market society and wanted to consolidate absolute power to the state...which is where the socialism tie comes into play.
So the accusation is an exponential gaslight attempt. First the democratic party would have to be for a socialist state, which it's not. That's the right wing fear mongering to the low information republican voters. I've yet to see any Democrat or democratic party want to destroy democracy and destroy the free market society.
Mainly we argue that we want more tax revenue allocated to make us a healthier nation (health care reform) and to do our best to help people not live in poverty.
And yeah, we'd like people to stop being selfish assholes and treat everyone with some dignity (which you call cancel culture because republicans don't like having a minority social position so they claim to be victims for basically being an asshole and to be accountable and suffer any repercussions for being an asshole).
To connect it to Nazism because they were a socialist state is gaslighting squared (first accuse the left of being a socialist state then connect that Nazis were socialists).
The bigger question in this debate is why is the republican party the overwhelming favorite of actual Nazis?
Why is the republican party the overwhelming favorite of white supremacists?
Why is the republican party platform allergic to the black community?
The Nazi party was a fascist party. Who is the left's demagogue?
Right now the right is led by a single populous figure who has effectively used the demagogue playbook to accend to that position in the republican party. You know, the extreme nationalism, the villifing of the social elite, the devalidating of the press, the consolation of power, the refusal of bipartisanship, the scapegoating of the marginalized, the sole fixer of all the problems, the verbose declarations of strength, the rewarding and demanding of loyalty to the demagogue, the fear mongering of political enemies, etc.
That more describes current Trumpism.
That also describes fascism.
It's obvious the republican party can't reign in Trumpism.
So if any of you dudes wonder why we're mean on Trumpism...yeah, we're not digging the fascist (and nazi) vibes that's challenging American democracy.
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You'd like me a lot more if it was since he was one of the founding fathers of squealing 'fake news' in an effort to squash any descent and to build a movement of angry misinformed who believed in a demagogue who could solve all the real and fabricated issues.
Sound familiar?
You mean like having a daffy old man as a puppet that can't speak even semi coherently, has to use note cards for anything and still screws it up, his wife or someone probably has to lay his clothes out for him . So you start a response like you did and withing 2 sentences it goes into a rant about Trump Trump trump. You try and come off as actually having information but you don't, it's all I hate Trump, he must be a fascist or a Nazi or the devil himself. It is just really scary how the mind of brainwashed leftists work , or don't work to be more accurate. I'd feel a lot better if the current party in power did have leadership from the person they elected instead of whatever the hell is going on now. Do you seriously think Joe Biden is capable of actually doing much of anything on his own? Look back at him speakeing 10 years ago. he was still a dim bulb but actually functioned and compared him to now. He is 78, he has no business being President. Trump is too old too but he is in a lot better shape than Biden.
Well, except for the Squad.Well you're (lack of ) understanding of actual History in this post flirts with VPM level of ignorance. First off anti-immigration and extreme nationalism were basic tenets of Nazi ideology. Your first couple of paragraphs basically echo the claims the Nazis made regarding Jews and undesirable foreigners and the way they scapegoated them for the plight of the average German...
If you want to attack leftists for what you consider their "lack of tolerance" then come up with your own ideological reference and stop stealing references to Nazi/Fascist which are exclusive terms to describe right-wing ideologies. You can't name a "leftist" who believes in military rule or colonialism, and both are key elements of both Nazi and Fascist ideology. Both Hitler and Mussolini were rabid racists, Hitler in particular believed in Aryan biological superiority...
There were no right-wing opponents of either Hitler or Mussolini, the right in both Germany and Italy adored Hitler. The Military-Industrial complex, the Ruhr valley industrialists, the more authoritarian branches of both the Protestant and Catholic churches. Mussolini had allies within the Vatican, and in Spain Franco's biggest allies to his Fascist Govt were the Catholic Bishops...
The people imprisoned in Concentration Camps were Jews, Socialists, Communists, Gays, conscientious objectors, underground members, disillusioned soldiers, and politicians...
So labeling "leftists" who made up the greatest % of non-Jews persecuted by the Nazis as Nazis, is just total revisionist crap.
"That are out rioting about cancelling history and any idea they don't agree with and so much else that falls exactly in line with the real Nazi ideal but you can't see it."
Again when you accuse the left of "cancelling history" and equate that with Nazism, you completely ignore that the people who stage rallies against cancelling history (like removing Confederate statues) ARE actual NAZIS...
CPAC is meeting in Texas this weekend, with Republican Govs in attendance and Trump set to speak this evening. That makes it a GOP Mainstream event...
Yet also in attendance are Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, 2 groups that are being charged with Conspiracy for their part on Jan 6. So mainstream GOP is mingling with members of organizations who helped plan Jan 6...
White nationalist Nick Fuentes banned from annual gathering of top US conservatives but other far-right extremists were welcomed
White nationalist Nick Fuentes barred from the Conservative Political Action Conference in Dallas, but Oath Keepers and Proud Boys were in attendance.www.yahoo.com
CPAC did evict Nick Fuentes, who is an avowed White Supremacist. But not before he made this entrance, demonstrating how much of an extremist he is...
Again to their credit, CPAC evicted him. But the problem is Paul Gosar (GOP-AZ) is an associate of Fuentes and has just completed fundraising with him...
Twitter Bans White Nationalist Leader Nick Fuentes, Ally Of Arizona Republican Rep. Gosar
Fuentes is a prominent white nationalist who enjoyed a big following online--and captured the ear of a sitting congressman.
Again, the issue is which (MAINSTREAM) party has moved farther extreme. You won't find Dems actively associating with an avowed racist...
Yeah, sounds exactly like CNN and MSNBC, NYT, etc., when they were screaming Russia Russia Russia
Just type in antifa.com on your interwebz and see what comes up.
Conservative elite huh. None of that is consistent with conservatism. It takes more to be a conservative than some guy on the internet saying others are conservative.“The first concentration camps were established in March 1933. Jews and others deemed undesirable were imprisoned, and liberals, socialists, and communists were killed, imprisoned, or exiled.”
The role of the conservative elite in the Nazi rise to power – The Holocaust Explained: Designed for schools
www.theholocaustexplained.org
Of course not. But that didn’t mean that other Democrats weren’t way over the top. The Biden’s even said wear a mask when walking your dog and they said it on super bowl Sunday.
Without arguing about governing principles compared to actions, military spending and privatization is pretty much non partisan and reflects pragmatism instead of ideology. Trade union issue is situational, and I agree in some cases that could be conservative. In Hitler’s case, that was to consolidate and concentrate power which is now a Democrat objective.
This entire thread is just bizarre.
That said, which side is cancelling ideas and books? The word Nazi should likely be cancelled from even being typed . People throw it around around it around like rice at a wedding. I'd like to make my own decisions on what TV shows to watch , what books to read and decide for myself vs being told what is bad or racist or whatever . Is that the right doing that? Democrats are the biggest group of hypocritical racist there are, but assuage themselves with all of this cancel culture retro active crap. Dr. Seuss, Song of the South, Dukes of Hazzard . It amazes me the idiocy of all of this yet we have Dear White people, another cable show that name escapes me but was basically called white people doing stupid sh*t . That is OK though?
That said, which side is cancelling ideas and books? The word Nazi should likely be cancelled from even being typed . People throw it around around it around like rice at a wedding. I'd like to make my own decisions on what TV shows to watch , what books to read and decide for myself vs being told what is bad or racist or whatever . Is that the right doing that? Democrats are the biggest group of hypocritical racist there are, but assuage themselves with all of this cancel culture retro active crap. Dr. Seuss, Song of the South, Dukes of Hazzard . It amazes me the idiocy of all of this yet we have Dear White people, another cable show that name escapes me but was basically called white people doing stupid sh*t . That is OK though?
I totally agree! Blacks do a lot of stupid sh*t, Mexicans do a lot of stupid sh*t my point is why is it OK to have two black guys have this show and yet if it were reversed there would be hell to pay.
For all your criticisms, Biden beat Trump soundly in the last election. Beat him soundly. Beat him convincingly. Even the Republican election officials in those swing states certified that Biden beat Trump.
That means voting Americans wanted Biden (just as he is) instead of Trump (just as he is)
Again, it sounds like you're either a sore loser or you're obsessed with Trump Trump Trump 24-7. Can you even comment about Biden without saying "Trump"?
Everybody watch for his response -- this should be instructive but not surprising.
This opinion piece by Mitch Daniels published today fits well in this thread.
Tossing around ‘Nazi’ and ‘fascist’ as insults is reckless and historically illiterate
Wait a minute.
Are you really saying Biden is "over the top" because he suggested wearing a mask while walking the dog?
Even if you're partly right, Biden's standard for "over the top" is a lot lower than what we endured in the previous administration.
It will be instructive but you won't pay any attention, You are not an intelligent voter like many of your friends. You have no clue about anything but celebrating Trump didn't win. In 6 months of the Biden administration just look at facts of prices, inflation, foreign policy, oil prices. So if you actually listened , you voted for an mentally impotent worthless old man because of some fairyland made up hatred. You are an idiot! That is my instruction to you. Sore loser? GD man it's not a football game it is our lives. Have you bought anything recently? Filled up with fuel?
So, let's see if we can sum up this tire fire of a thread.
Mas thinks the Nazis got a bad rap.
CO.H thinks Nazis are leftists.
For more than one smart posters, this thread was the straw that broke the camel's back, and we might not see them again for a while.
Nine pages, and that's about it.
Mas thinks the Nazis got a bad rap.
CO.H thinks Nazis are leftists.
For more than one smart posters, this thread was the straw that broke the camel's back, and we might not see them again for a while.
Nine pages, and that's about it.
If he didn't say it, I'll say it - telling people to wear a mask while walking their dog is not only over the top, it's stupid.
That clear enough for you?
Here’s some more data for you to peruse whilst you have your little tantrum …..
It’s a wonderful life …..
So it follows that leftists got a bad rap, right?
When history is studied and understand,
It becomes a powerful tool to combat the encore of historical events manifesting in modern times.
That's why historical symbols and documentation must be destroyed.
It's no coincidence the leftist mob pushes aggressively to accomplish this.
The leftists in Charlottesville government removed not only the statues of Rebert E. Lee and 'Stonewall' Jackson, but also those of Lewis and Clark, and Sacagawea.
You don’t even understand why Hitler was imprisoned.
You think “international Jewry” is a thing.
Your understanding of history needs a lot of work.
lol. We can always depend on you to goatsplain a thread.
Nobody, including you, have made even a feeble case that Hitler leaned right or was a conservative. Marv took a stab at it but all he really did was apply the infinite monkey theorem.
Hitler represented the conservative wing of the Nazi party. I'm not dumb enough to try to translate that to the modern left-right spectrum.
I will remind you again, when you see people defending Hitler, they aren't liberals.
Mussolini was the first fascist leader. He had been a socialist but hated the lack of nationalism built into socialism. So he created fascism. Here is from the Wiki:
The National Fascist Party of Benito Mussolini came to power in Italy in 1922 at the end of a period of social unrest. Working class activism was at a high point, militant trade unions were organizing increasingly frequent strikes to demand workers' rights and the Italian Socialist Party was making significant electoral gains. This caused widespread fear among Italian business circles and part of the middle class, who believed that a communist revolution was imminent.[60] With the traditional right-wing parties appearing incapable of dealing with the situation, King Victor Emmanuel III turned to the young Fascist movement, which he considered to hold a hardline right-wing orientation by violently suppressing strikes and appointed Benito Mussolini prime minister.[60] Soon after his rise to power, Mussolini defined his economic stance by saying: "The [Fascist] government will accord full freedom to private enterprise and will abandon all intervention in private economy".[61]
Mussolini was amazed that his pro-business class philosophy attracted so many in the middle class. The general idea now is that the middle class was afraid of the lower classes and saw fascism as a way to prevent the lower classes from taking over. It was not what Mussolini thought would happen, but it did happen.Mussolini and Hitler promised social order. This greatly attracted middle-class voters. It is also true in America that conservatives are much more beholden to the social order than liberals.
Neither Hitler nor Mussolini had an idea to sit down and create a political concept based on the beliefs of 21st century Americans, as Goat rightly points out. I am not sure Hitler or Mussolini read Locke, Burke, or even Marx. They just knew they hated and feared Marx. It was a fear of Marx that created fascism.
Some other fascism 101 from the Wik where one WILL see liberal and conservativei:
The National Fascist Party of Benito Mussolini came to power in Italy in 1922 at the end of a period of social unrest. Working class activism was at a high point, militant trade unions were organizing increasingly frequent strikes to demand workers' rights and the Italian Socialist Party was making significant electoral gains. This caused widespread fear among Italian business circles and part of the middle class, who believed that a communist revolution was imminent.[60] With the traditional right-wing parties appearing incapable of dealing with the situation, King Victor Emmanuel III turned to the young Fascist movement, which he considered to hold a hardline right-wing orientation by violently suppressing strikes and appointed Benito Mussolini prime minister.[60] Soon after his rise to power, Mussolini defined his economic stance by saying: "The [Fascist] government will accord full freedom to private enterprise and will abandon all intervention in private economy".[61]
Fascist governments encouraged the pursuit of private profit and offered many benefits to large businesses, but they demanded in return that all economic activity should serve the national interest.[13] Historian Gaetano Salvemini argued in 1936 that fascism makes taxpayers responsible to private enterprise because "the State pays for the blunders of private enterprise. [...] Profit is private and individual. Loss is public and social".[29] Stanley Payne argues that fascist movements defended the principle of private property because they held it to be "inherent to the freedom and spontaneity of the individual personality", but that they also aimed to eliminate the autonomy or in some cases the existence of large-scale capitalism.[30] Jurgen Kuczynski characterizes a fascist economy as a type of "monopoly capitalism", which preserves the "fundamental traits of capitalist production", such as the fact that production is carried out for the market by privately owned firms which employ workers for a certain wage.[31] He argues that fascism is "nothing but a particular form of government within capitalist society",[32] which instead does feature a major role for the state as was also the case in some early capitalist societies of previous centuries.[33]
Fascism operated from a social Darwinist view of human relations and their aim was to promote superior individuals and weed out the weak.[20] In terms of economic practice, this meant promoting the interests of successful businessmen while destroying trade unions and other organizations of the working class.[34] Fascist governments declared the trade union movement illegal and replaced it with labor organizations under the direct control of the government, which ensured that workers could not undertake any effective economic action.[35] Membership in these labor organizations was compulsory,[36] their leaders were appointed by the ruling party rather than elected by the members[37] and they were presented as a new type of unions which would serve to harmonize the interests of workers and businesses.[38] However, in practice they primarily served the interests of major business owners, who were able to lobby the ruling party to appoint the leaders they desired.[39] In order to maintain and increase the profits of industry, fascist states eliminated the possibility of mass protest and then cut wages either directly or indirectly.[40] Strikes were strictly banned and prison sentences could be given to employees who stopped working as a group.[41]
Fascist governments in both Italy and Germany privatized state-owned enterprises at certain times.[42][43][44] These privatizations were carried out in the early stages of both regimes (1922–1925 for Italy and 1934–1937 for Germany) and represented a reversal of the policies of the democratic governments which had preceded them. The democratic governments had brought a number of industries under state ownership and the fascists decided to return them to private ownership.[45] In doing so, they went against the mainstream economic trends of their time, when most Western governments were increasing state ownership.[46][47] Fascist privatization policies were driven by a desire to secure the support of wealthy industrialists as well as by the need to increase government revenues in order to balance budgets.[48][49] Significantly, fascist governments were among the first to undertake large-scale privatizations in modern times.[50]
In most cases, fascists discouraged or banned foreign trade, supporting protectionism. Fascists believed that too much international trade would make the national economy dependent on international capital and therefore vulnerable to international economic sanctions. Economic self-sufficiency, known as autarky, was a major goal of most fascist governments.[51] Furthermore, fascism was highly militaristic and as such fascists often significantly increased military spending. Recruitment into the military was one of the main policies used by fascist governments to reduce unemployment.[52]
Conservative wing of Nazi party huh. That’s like saying the liberal wing of the KKK. I don’t care whether you want to use criteria from Burke’s, Hayek’s or Buckley’s time, Hitler was no conservative by any measure.
What does people who defend Hitler have to do with anything? Those who condemn Hitler by saying he was a right leaning conservative is my beef. That is just more liberal vacuous conservative bashing that has gone on since Goldwater’s days. It’s what you do instead of arguing ideas.
I’m not talking about Fascism in general. I’m Talking about Hitler’s politics.
