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Doing the opposite of Trump has consequences

Marvin the Martian said:
Let me ask this, I have some very serious reservations about the religious indoctrination some kids are put through. But I don't think the government has a right to interfere even though it seems pretty irreversible.
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Gay conversion therapy is the better analogy. I'm fine with outlawing that, even if the parents desperately want it and they can find some psych experts to agree.
 
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Marvin the Martian said:
Wow, so neat that you admit racism affects compensation like that. And there are studies that show neighborhoods being more than 10% Black STILL lowers property values. So we can throw out the canard that America no longer has a racism problem?
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Is skin color the only factor where the property values are lowered, or are there others to be considered?
 
Marvin the Martian said:
I have seen multiple sites say exactly that

www.google.com

Ohio House overrides governor Mike DeWine's veto of gender-affirming care ban

The law would ban types of gender-affirming care, such as surgery and hormone therapy, for those under 18 and also bars transgender girls and women from playing on women's sports teams.
www.google.com www.google.com
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Not all, though, right? What types of therapy does it ban? The kind that encourages the child to consider themselves the opposite sex? A type that refers to the body of an X and the soul or mind of a Y? We need specifics to properly analyze this, don't we?
 
TheOriginalHappyGoat said:
What jurisdictions?
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A starting point, here:

wesleyyang.substack.com

Psychologists are not legally required to affirm the gender identities of their patients

A psychotherapist who works with gender distressed young people without affirming their gender identities in California, where "conversion therapy" is banned, explains why her practice is legal
wesleyyang.substack.com wesleyyang.substack.com

Not directly on point, but this psychotherapist complains about the quick path most want them to put children on, while also affirming the importance of therapy while suggesting one need not engage in gender "affirming" care to help the patient
 
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VanPastorMan said:
There is no such thing as crazy parents? There aren't women out there who had a son but really wanted a daughter and now feels their desires are warranted and ethical? You can talk kids into things as an adult. It's why pedophiles are sick.
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@VanPastorMan, I'm sure there might be some. But that's not the vast majority of what's going on here.

Some mental illness is genetic, some environmental, most a combo of both. Blaming a parent for a child's mental illness, though, is unfair and incorrect. They most likely didn't "cause" it in the way you are suggesting.

These parents are reacting to a real phenomena in their children. The cause of gender dysphoria can be varied. And the child might just be searching for a band aid on a much different problem (the most benign might be just plain old attention seeking. But it is also highly correlated with kids on the autism spectrum, and seen in kids with schizophrenia). But when it reaches the point of the child threatening or attempting to harm themselves because of the illness, the parents are put into a really tough spot. And if a medical or psychological expert tells you the best way to keep your kid alive is to allow them to have a surgery or give them these drugs, what are you supposed to do?

I know a lot of men who have mentally ill children--one had gender dysphoria diagnosed (in San Fran) and the dad pushed back. It led to a divorce (actually it sped it up--it was going to happen anyway). Daughter is still mentally ill, but outgrew the gender dysphoria. She attempted suicide a few times, though, and it was a living hell for his family. He was not a crazy parent and did not want his daughter to be a son.
 
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BradStevens said:
@VanPastorMan, I'm sure there might be some. But that's not the vast majority of what's going on here.

Some mental illness is genetic, some environmental, most a combo of both. Blaming a parent for a child's mental illness, though, is unfair and incorrect. They most likely didn't "cause" it in the way you are suggesting.

These parents are reacting to a real phenomena in their children. The cause of gender dysphoria can be varied. And the child might just be searching for a band aid on a much different problem (the most benign might be just plain old attention seeking. But it is also highly correlated with kids on the autism spectrum, and seen in kids with schizophrenia). But when it reaches the point of the child threatening or attempting to harm themselves because of the illness, the parents are put into a really tough spot. And if a medical or psychological expert tells you the best way to keep your kid alive is to allow them to have a surgery or give them these drugs, what are you supposed to do?

I know a lot of men who have mentally ill children--one had gender dysphoria diagnosed (in San Fran) and the dad pushed back. It led to a divorce (actually it sped it up--it was going to happen anyway). Daughter is still mentally ill, but outgrew the gender dysphoria. She attempted suicide a few times, though, and it was a living hell for his family. He was not a crazy parent and did not want his daughter to be a son.
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Out grew it. Well imagine that
 
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mcmurtry66 said:
Out grew it. Well imagine that
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Yeah, but she was institutionalized on and off for about a year. At age 13-14.

The suicide thing is scary. I don't know how useful the analogy, but suicide is also a threat with kids with eating disorders. What do you do with an anorexic kid who threatens suicide if you force them to eat? Let them be anorexic, even if that means destroying their bodies and eventual death? Maybe the difference between the two is that if you perform surgery or hormone therapy in the gender dysphoric kid, it won't klll them where anorexia will?

This isn't an easy subject. But thinking the therapists or psychiatrists are performing a complex balancing of risk in each, individual kid and developing % odds of suicide vs. not is not accurate, either. First, they are incentivized certain ways. Second, it's an impossible calculation, with too many variables and unknown causal factors at play. And parents can't do it because they are too emotionally involved.
 
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BradStevens said:
Yeah, but she was institutionalized on and off for about a year. At age 13-14.

The suicide thing is scary. I don't know how useful the analogy, but suicide is also a threat with kids with eating disorders. What do you do with an anorexic kid who threatens suicide if you force them to eat? Let them be anorexic, even if that means destroying their bodies and eventual death? Maybe the difference between the two is that if you perform surgery or hormone therapy in the gender dysphoric kid, it won't klll them where anorexia will?

This isn't an easy subject. But thinking the therapists or psychiatrists are performing a complex balancing of risk in each, individual kid and developing % odds of suicide vs. not is not accurate, either. First, they are incentivized certain ways. Second, it's an impossible calculation, with too many variables and unknown causal factors at play. And parents can't do it because they are too emotionally involved.
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Agreed on all counts
 
mcmurtry66 said:
What I think is that a significant portion of this 50-60 percent rise have cultist parents foisting it upon them. I think it’s the current milieu in woke culture. I think the rise is orchestrated not organic
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50-60 percent increase is meaningless without knowing the starting point. What was the % of "out" kids like 20 years ago and what is the % today? I honestly don't know. But if it was 1% 20 years ago and it's 1.50% then it's most likely an acceptance issue.
 
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Marvin the Martian said:
Wow, so neat that you admit racism effects compensation like that. And there are studies that show neighborhoods being more than 10% Black STILL lowers property values. So we can throw out the canard that America no longer has a racism problem?
Click to expand...
I don’t know which is cause and which is effect. But as you noted, medical compensation ( at the PC level) is down, so smart overachieving white males (best and brightest) are moving on.
 
BradStevens said:
@VanPastorMan, I'm sure there might be some. But that's not the vast majority of what's going on here.

Some mental illness is genetic, some environmental, most a combo of both. Blaming a parent for a child's mental illness, though, is unfair and incorrect. They most likely didn't "cause" it in the way you are suggesting.

These parents are reacting to a real phenomena in their children. The cause of gender dysphoria can be varied. And the child might just be searching for a band aid on a much different problem (the most benign might be just plain old attention seeking. But it is also highly correlated with kids on the autism spectrum, and seen in kids with schizophrenia). But when it reaches the point of the child threatening or attempting to harm themselves because of the illness, the parents are put into a really tough spot. And if a medical or psychological expert tells you the best way to keep your kid alive is to allow them to have a surgery or give them these drugs, what are you supposed to do?

I know a lot of men who have mentally ill children--one had gender dysphoria diagnosed (in San Fran) and the dad pushed back. It led to a divorce (actually it sped it up--it was going to happen anyway). Daughter is still mentally ill, but outgrew the gender dysphoria. She attempted suicide a few times, though, and it was a living hell for his family. He was not a crazy parent and did not want his daughter to be a son.
Click to expand...
The problem with your point is that you assume there is such a thing as child gender dysphoria. I think that question is open. The only diagnostic tool is self report, behaviors, and parental beliefs. I think all of that is unreliable and subject to preconceptions and confirmation bias.

If a child wanted to sell their bodies for sex at age 14, should that be allowed or encouraged? How do we make the distinctions?
 
mrhighlife said:
50-60 percent increase is meaningless without knowing the starting point. What was the % of "out" kids like 20 years ago and what is the % today? I honestly don't know. But if it was 1% 20 years ago and it's 1.50% then it's most likely an acceptance issue.
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What does acceptance have to do with it? If we accepted child sex trade, we would see more of it. Acceptance is a cultural metric, not a medical one.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
What does acceptance have to do with it? If we accepted child sex trade, we would see more of it. Acceptance is a cultural metric, not a medical one.
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Maybe I worded it wrong. I meant 20 years ago being gay was less acceptable to general society as it is today. So more people remained in the closet. Someone mentioned that 50-60% more kids are identifying as gay today. I'm saying that its most likely due to it being more accepted today. The are not more gay people today but their is more people who feel comfortable being open about it. And that's a good thing.
 
mrhighlife said:
Maybe I worded it wrong. I meant 20 years ago being gay was less acceptable to general society as it is today. So more people remained in the closet. Someone mentioned that 50-60% more kids are identifying as gay today. I'm saying that its most likely due to it being more accepted today. The are not more gay people today but their is more people who feel comfortable being open about it. And that's a good thing.
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and i believe that is part of it and i believe that the other part is goofy woke cultists imputing it upon their children.

adults should be able to be anything they want without grief from people who don't share their views or lifestyle. with kids we have to use extreme caution and care. saying well a doctor thinks they should and so does mom isn't dispositive of anything for the reasons set forth above by other posters
 
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mrhighlife said:
Maybe I worded it wrong. I meant 20 years ago being gay was less acceptable to general society as it is today. So more people remained in the closet. Someone mentioned that 50-60% more kids are identifying as gay today. I'm saying that its most likely due to it being more accepted today. The are not more gay people today but their is more people who feel comfortable being open about it. And that's a good thing.
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I'm still waiting for the epidemic of beastiality we were told would happen.
 
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BradStevens said:
@VanPastorMan, I'm sure there might be some. But that's not the vast majority of what's going on here.

Some mental illness is genetic, some environmental, most a combo of both. Blaming a parent for a child's mental illness, though, is unfair and incorrect. They most likely didn't "cause" it in the way you are suggesting.

These parents are reacting to a real phenomena in their children. The cause of gender dysphoria can be varied. And the child might just be searching for a band aid on a much different problem (the most benign might be just plain old attention seeking. But it is also highly correlated with kids on the autism spectrum, and seen in kids with schizophrenia). But when it reaches the point of the child threatening or attempting to harm themselves because of the illness, the parents are put into a really tough spot. And if a medical or psychological expert tells you the best way to keep your kid alive is to allow them to have a surgery or give them these drugs, what are you supposed to do?

I know a lot of men who have mentally ill children--one had gender dysphoria diagnosed (in San Fran) and the dad pushed back. It led to a divorce (actually it sped it up--it was going to happen anyway). Daughter is still mentally ill, but outgrew the gender dysphoria. She attempted suicide a few times, though, and it was a living hell for his family. He was not a crazy parent and did not want his daughter to be a son.
Click to expand...
Great point about how this young girl grew out of this dysphoria. What if she had had surgeries and been pumped up with drugs? I feel bad for this young woman. Mental illness is as you said is coming from a variety of factors. My sister had a husband who was manic depressive. There was a ton of turmoil. One of her sons inherited this as well. But the other son did not. Who can explain it?
 
mattndallas said:
Sounds like the suicide rate is similar with or without op...just flawed mentally due to whatever.

journals.plos.org

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...
journals.plos.org journals.plos.org

I know one "trans kid" personally. Daughter and her were playmates at Gymboree, and even played soccer together at 4 in Dallas. She now calls herself a he/him and dresses like one of those emo kids in black with blue hair and the cat-lady glasses. No surgery yet, not sure about hormones.

Kid's dad (Purdue guy) came out as gay when she was about 6. Parents got divorced. Dad now bangs dudes. Mom's been married 2 times since then...so the girl's had like 3 different "families" as her mom runs through her dudes...and she's 13.

So...yeah...in this case, probably more of an emotional reaction caused by a fuxked up childhood.

But then again, I'm not an "expert"...not a "pediatrician" that makes money cutting off teenagers racks. I'm just spit-balling.
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So the dad going to Purdue is what really f##ed her up. PS. Pediatricians don’t do the surgery.
 
CO. Hoosier said:
I don’t know that answer. I do know that in some jurisdictions, a provider can be subject to suspension for counseling against transitioning.
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Can you link that information? Thats difficult to believe.
 
VanPastorMan said:
I don't believe there are legitimate trans kids. If an adult wants to make that decision then that is one thing, but not kids. Some Doctors will perform all kinds of procedures which are not good for people. Look at these women who look horrendous after they get too much plastic surgery. Did any of those doctors say, "It is my advice that you should not get this done"? No, they take the money.
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How can there not be legitimate trans kids? Are there not legitimate gay kids? At the age of 18 do they suddenly become legitimate?
 
VanPastorMan said:
Sermon is already done. I just missed a great opportunity. You know from a pastoral perspective my heart aches for people who don't accept themselves. The suicide rate for trans people is that 40% attempt it. This is whether they get surgery or not. So the real issue is far deeper. These people were created by God to be male or female at birth. They weren't assigned their gender/sex. They were created in the womb to be one or the other. The fact they can't accept themselves is very tragic. But chopping off body parts and taking drugs that changes their bodies and also their moods is not the answer.
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How do you know? It appears to be the answer to happiness and self acceptance for many.
 
UncleMark said:
There might be some of that Marv, but I think there's more to it. Assigning malevolent motives to those you disagree with turns policy disputes into morality questions. It's one thing to think your opponent is misguided or mistaken; it's another to paint them as immoral. That's the brush McM is using here.
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I had this discussion a few weeks ago. In order to get blockers or surgery when not needed the patient would have to have: A. Crazy parents ( as mc says, purple haired woke cult) , B a complicit counselor or therapist, C. An evil, immoral doctor, just out to make a buck D. A hospital or administrator who ignores all of the above.
I find it hard to believe that happens very often. Others seem to think that is the norm.
 
zeke4ahs said:
I had this discussion a few weeks ago. In order to get blockers or surgery when not needed the patient would have to have: A. Crazy parents ( as mc says, purple haired woke cult) , B a complicit counselor or therapist, C. An evil, immoral doctor, just out to make a buck D. A hospital or administrator who ignores all of the above.
I find it hard to believe that happens very often. Others seem to think that is the norm.
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I don’t think bad faith or good faith motives matter for kids.
 
mcmurtry66 said:
Will you delete your account if I show you the spike in this issue that coincided? Or is this going to be like no Dems support blm then I show you cori bush. Over and over again. Go. Away. You never add anything but yabbuts that always wrong
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Never said no dem supported blm. I said it wasn't a dem political movement.

Your inability to understand the English language is par for the course for you.

If people being wrong led to account deletion then you should have left a long time ago.
 
zeke4ahs said:
How can there not be legitimate trans kids? Are there not legitimate gay kids? At the age of 18 do they suddenly become legitimate?
Click to expand...
Trans and gay are not analogous. Being gay does not lead to permanent changes in body chemistry or disfigurement.
 
Bowlmania said:
Wake the hell up. Trump is the danger.

"Anyone who puts himself over the Constitution should never be president of the United States. … President Trump demanded that I choose between him and the Constitution.” - Former Vice President Mike Pence

"Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people – does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us. .. He is more dangerous than anyone could ever imagine.” - Retired General James Mattis

“A person that has no idea what America stands for and has no idea what America is all about … A person who admires autocrats and murderous dictators. A person that has nothing but contempt for our democratic institutions, our Constitution, and the rule of law.” - Retired General John Kelly

"He is a consummate narcissist. And he constantly engages in reckless conduct. … He will always put his own interests, and gratifying his own ego, ahead of everything else, including the country’s interest.” - Former Attorney General Bill Barr

“President Trump and other officials have repeatedly compromised our principles in pursuit of partisan advantage and personal gain.” - Retired Lieutenant General HR McMaster

"I have been in those rooms with him when he met with those [world] leaders, I believe they think he’s a laughing fool. And the idea that somehow his presence in office would have deterred Putin is flatly wrong … He’s not fit to be president.” - Former National Security Advisor John Bolton

"He puts himself before country. His actions are all about him and not about the country.” - Former Defense Secretary Mark Esper

Ignoring the observations of people who worked closely with Trump requires hyper-partisan self-delusion and veers into idolatry. You're clearly part of that club.
Click to expand...
This is what I’ll never understand. These are Republicans who know and work closely with Trump. It would be in their benefit NOT to say these things. But they speak out, hoping it will wake people up to the danger of Trump. But nope. His cult continue to think they know him better than those people. I’m not sure how we recover from these people and the cult of Trump.
 
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mcmurtry66 said:
Irradicate. and of course it was a dem political movement. now go back to the children's table. adults are talking and not about your topic
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Yea, that is why blm protested covid lockdown, because dem party controlled them

You are completely ignorant of facts
 
mcmurtry66 said:
one “cult” wants to make American great. The other cult is interested in children’s’ genitalia. We know which cult you subscribe to

Get help
Click to expand...
One cult believes in stupid slogans , that’s for sure. And a stupid man.
 
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