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Development on the Chloroquine front...

C

cosmickid

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Oct 23, 2009
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I already know that with the nature of my personal health conditions Chloroquine would not be an option for me if I come down with COVID. Brazil has just announced that it is halting a small test of its effectiveness for safety reasons. An interesting note,since Chloroquine is actually a "recommended treatment for COVID patients" under Brazil's national guidelines, the study was unable to use a placebo in the study which only involved 81 test patients...

"A small study in Brazil was halted early for safety reasons after coronavirus patients taking a higher dose of chloroquine developed irregular heart rates that increased their risk of a potentially fatal heart arrhythmia.

Chloroquine is closely related to the more widely used drug hydroxychloroquine. President Donald Trump has enthusiastically promoted them as a potential treatment for the novel coronavirus despite little evidence that they work, and despite concerns from some of his top health officials. Last month, the Food and Drug Administration granted emergency approval to allow hospitals to use chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine from the national stockpile if clinical trials were not feasible. Companies that manufacture both drugs are ramping up production."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/small-chloroquine-study-halted-over-121423352.html
 
The success story is hydroxychloroquine. Trump now calls them, "Wrong Pill Brazil".
 
cosmickid said:
I already know that with the nature of my personal health conditions Chloroquine would not be an option for me if I come down with COVID. Brazil has just announced that it is halting a small test of its effectiveness for safety reasons. An interesting note,since Chloroquine is actually a "recommended treatment for COVID patients" under Brazil's national guidelines, the study was unable to use a placebo in the study which only involved 81 test patients...

"A small study in Brazil was halted early for safety reasons after coronavirus patients taking a higher dose of chloroquine developed irregular heart rates that increased their risk of a potentially fatal heart arrhythmia.

Chloroquine is closely related to the more widely used drug hydroxychloroquine. President Donald Trump has enthusiastically promoted them as a potential treatment for the novel coronavirus despite little evidence that they work, and despite concerns from some of his top health officials. Last month, the Food and Drug Administration granted emergency approval to allow hospitals to use chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine from the national stockpile if clinical trials were not feasible. Companies that manufacture both drugs are ramping up production."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/small-chloroquine-study-halted-over-121423352.html
Click to expand...

There was no control group, so it isn't a great study to compare results, which are poor to say the least.
 
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hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) and chloroquine (CQ) are both approved for malaria treatment and are thought to have exactly the same mechanism of action. HCQ has supplanted the earlier-developed CQ because the extra hydroxy group changes its distribution to the eye, and thus it has a lower incidence of the side effect of vision issues.
 
look at the drug label.

“Cardiac Effects, including Cardiomyopathy and QT prolongation: Postmarketing cases of life-threatening and fatal cardiomyopathy have been reported with use of PLAQUENIL as well as with use of chloroquine. Patients may present with atrioventricular block, pulmonary hypertension, sick sinus syndrome or with cardiac complications. “

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2017/009768s037s045s047lbl.pdf
 
outside shooter said:
look at the drug label.

“Cardiac Effects, including Cardiomyopathy and QT prolongation: Postmarketing cases of life-threatening and fatal cardiomyopathy have been reported with use of PLAQUENIL as well as with use of chloroquine. Patients may present with atrioventricular block, pulmonary hypertension, sick sinus syndrome or with cardiac complications. “

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2017/009768s037s045s047lbl.pdf
Click to expand...
Yet the FDA has approved it for widespread use to treat several conditions. You should send them a copy of your post.
 
outside shooter said:
look at the drug label.

“Cardiac Effects, including Cardiomyopathy and QT prolongation: Postmarketing cases of life-threatening and fatal cardiomyopathy have been reported with use of PLAQUENIL as well as with use of chloroquine. Patients may present with atrioventricular block, pulmonary hypertension, sick sinus syndrome or with cardiac complications. “

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2017/009768s037s045s047lbl.pdf
Click to expand...
What have you got to lose?
 
Marvin the Martian said:
And I can't stop you. But there ARE people taking without supervision blissfully unaware there are potential issues. Are you taking it? Why not? If not, when would you start taking it, at first diagnosis?
Click to expand...
I would defer to the advice of my PCP.
 
HillzHoozier said:
I would defer to the advice of my PCP.
Click to expand...

That is a great answer. I fear people are going to their doctor demanding the drug, as they did for antibiotics and narcotics based on the advice of some radio host (or some random president). We know how well it turned out for people to demand antibiotics and narcotics.
 
HillzHoozier said:
Wouldn't you take it in the absence of another option?
Click to expand...

maybe, in the short term

mechanistically, I hold out much more hope for selective inhibitors of the RNA polymerase involved in viral replication. Those are Gilead Sciences’ remdesivir and Toyama Chemical's favipiravir.

they are earlier in the pipeline, though
 
outside shooter said:
maybe, in the short term

mechanistically, I hold out much more hope for selective inhibitors of the RNA polymerase involved in viral replication. Those are Gilead Sciences’ remdesivir and Toyama Chemical's favipiravir.

they are earlier in the pipeline, though
Click to expand...
Remdesivir was mentioned very early on. Then nothing. Aren't there side-effects with these as well?
 
HillzHoozier said:
The encouraging part is that only 5 patients died. Tell me why that's so insignificant to people?
Click to expand...
It’s really not that hard to understand when you’re not trying to own the libs.

It’s completely unproven that this combo is better than standard of care because this study didn’t compare against a control group. The doctor performing the study said that’s because the control group is unethical, and that’s not controversial, but it still doesn’t prove that HCQ plus a Z-pack does anything more for a patient than does standard of care.

Stop trying to own the libs and think logically.
 
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INRanger27 said:
It’s really not that hard to understand when you’re not trying to own the libs.

It’s completely unproven that this combo is better than standard of care because this study didn’t compare against a control group. The doctor performing the study said that’s because the control group is unethical, and that’s not controversial, but it still doesn’t prove that HCQ plus a Z-pack does anything more for a patient than does standard of care.

Stop trying to own the libs and think logically.
Click to expand...
Plus, the entire study hasn’t been released yet so no one knows what the inclusion criteria were. It’s highly unlikely that his patients were a random group with an equal chance of outcomes as the general population. The abstract also basically whitewashes side effects which we know are significant.
 
HillzHoozier said:
The encouraging part is that only 5 patients died. Tell me why that's so insignificant to people?
Click to expand...
Because we don’t know why the people in the study were in the study. What if he selected people who had a very small chance of dying? Everyone in the study also undoubtedly drank water and took a crap too. Without a properly conducted clinical trial with a control group for comparison, you could say water and taking a crap are effective treatments.
 
Daydreamer said:
Everyone in the study also undoubtedly drank water and took a crap too. Without a properly conducted clinical trial with a control group for comparison, you could say water and taking a crap are effective treatments.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but Trump isn't advocating for drinking water and taking a crap. So duh.
 
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There was a story tonight on NBC news about a hospital testing remdesivir. Who knows if it will work. But they are getting patients saying they don't want the experimental drug, they want the drug Trump says works.

Of course we have no idea which, if either, works better. But Trump has certainly swayed some of the public in a direction.
 
i wonder if Boris Johnson took it.

if in the ICU with the virus and no history of heart issues, i wonder who here wouldn't take it.

we're talking taking it for what, 2 weeks. not the rest of your life.

what are the heart risks of 2 or 3 weeks of taking it.

that said, almost nothing we get from the MSM seems information based in the slightest.

just 5 yr old Monday morning QBs pointing fingers at each other all day every day.

no info on how trials are going.

no info on how serious the heart risk actually is, vs the heart risk mentioned on most pharma warning labels.

no info on where we are with the serologic antibodies tests, or how prepared we are to do 400 million plus blood tests once it's ready to go.

no info on what we are doing about currently infected tests.

no info about about anything other than body count.

just bitching and blaming not stop.

time to take this away from the politics (propaganda) division of the news, and give it to the sports division.

they'd be all over everything like stink on sht, and we'd actually learn something useful..

the knock on MSM political coverage has always been they never cover the issues, only the horse race.

well, they aren't covering the issues now either. just the horse race.

the media's total and complete incompetence rivals the govt's.
 
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i'vegotwinners said:
i wonder if Boris Johnson took it.

if in the ICU with the virus and no history of heart issues, i wonder who here wouldn't take it.

we're talking taking it for what, 2 weeks. not the rest of your life.

what are the heart risks of 2 or 3 weeks of taking it.

that said, almost nothing we get from the MSM seems information based in the slightest.

just 5 yr old Monday morning QBs pointing fingers at each other all day every day.

no info on how trials are going.

no info on how serious the heart risk actually is, vs the heart risk mentioned on most pharma warning labels.

no info on where we are with the serologic antibodies tests, or how prepared we are to do 400 million plus blood tests once it's ready to go.

no info on what we are doing about currently infected tests.

no info about about anything other than body count.

just bitching and blaming not stop.

time to take this away from the politics (propaganda) division of the news, and give it to the sports division.

they'd be all over everything like stink on sht, and we'd actually learn something useful..

the knock on MSM political coverage has always been they never cover the issues, only the horse race.

well, they aren't covering the issues now either. just the horse race.

the media's total and complete incompetence rivals the govt's.
Click to expand...
This might be your best post ever. I'm half tempted to copy/paste with Wall St-approved formatting so other people might read it too!
 
i'vegotwinners said:
i wonder if Boris Johnson took it.

if in the ICU with the virus and no history of heart issues, i wonder who here wouldn't take it.

we're talking taking it for what, 2 weeks. not the rest of your life.

what are the heart risks of 2 or 3 weeks of taking it.

that said, almost nothing we get from the MSM seems information based in the slightest.

just 5 yr old Monday morning QBs pointing fingers at each other all day every day.

no info on how trials are going.

no info on how serious the heart risk actually is, vs the heart risk mentioned on most pharma warning labels.

no info on where we are with the serologic antibodies tests, or how prepared we are to do 400 million plus blood tests once it's ready to go.

no info on what we are doing about currently infected tests.

no info about about anything other than body count.

just bitching and blaming not stop.

time to take this away from the politics (propaganda) division of the news, and give it to the sports division.

they'd be all over everything like stink on sht, and we'd actually learn something useful..

the knock on MSM political coverage has always been they never cover the issues, only the horse race.

well, they aren't covering the issues now either. just the horse race.

the media's total and complete incompetence rivals the govt's.
Click to expand...

Well, that was a rant with no meaning.

We have NO idea what the heart risks are on COVID patients taking Hydroxychloroquine because NO ONE HAS DONE A STUDY. How could we possibly kbow?

The task Force is frequently asked about antibody testing, and the answer is "soon" or "next week". The catch is, we have no idea how accurate the testing is. See CNN story. If you Google "antibody testing" you will see California has just begun a massive study on it, along with hundreds of articles from,large and small media across the nation.

What do you mean by, "no info on what we are doing about currently infected test"? I imagine test kits that are infected get destroyed, as would non-infected. I do not know that is important. If you mean the people, that has been covered ad naseum. If one meets the criteria to be hospitalized, which depends on state and hospital guidelines, they are hospitalized. Otherwise they are told to self-quarantine. You do so until you have been fever free for 72 hours AND not taking any medicine to reduce the fever. See NPR story. CNN has had Sanjay Gupta on all the time discussing it from the PoV of a doc, and Chris Cuomo has it and has discussed it from the patient PoV.

Americans are well trained in sports, and sports always have a score. As a result, we have a huge appetite for who is winning and by how much. The media has been making some mistakes. Several CNN people harp on points way too long. But the bottom line is they are largely giving people the news they want. I know that because if they were not, people would stop watching tv news, visiting news websites.

And part of the problem is the age old politicians vs the press. No one in Washington is going to give solid numbers about exactly what date how many widgets will be available, they have no idea. Too many variables. Heck, Holcomb's first dozen press conferences he refused to say how many ICU beds were in Indiana, saying it was proprietary information.

Simply put, if the government isn't sharing the info it is dang tough to find the info. Just on test kits, the country is a huge place with dozens of labs making them. The media probably does not know all the places making them. So the only way to get that info is to ask people like Trump and Fauci. And that question comes up often. Just last week Trump responded to the question on widespread testing by saying it was not even necessary.

Simply put, right now we know what Trump et al want us to know. And they are not giving firm deadlines about when we will have x or y because they do not want blamed if they miss the mark.
 
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An anecdote about these drugs until they are proven to work. I made the rookie mistake of clicking on a Facebook ad for an IU themed facemask. Now my feed are millions of facemask ads. But that got me thinking of buying masks on Amazon.

Of course there are no n95 masks as doctors and nurses are still begging for them. But there are the pm2.5 masks. In the reviews for one was this, "While this mask does not protect against viruses, it gave me the confidence to go back outside".

Isn't that like saying, "I realize this Superman costume does not give me super powers, it has given me the confidence to jump off the top of a skyscraper"?

If we believe there is a cure, we are going to be far more likely to break social distancing. Hack, there does not even need to be a cure. I see the Bundy family was back in the news saying he is young and healthy so he wants the disease.

There is a range in how effective hydroxychloroquine might be. It might be barely effective. It might be a game-changer that renders you immune to the disease. It might be anywhere between. People will base the risk they are willing to take based on how effective they think a treatment is. Is it not better to base the risk on how effective treatment is proven to be.

I have some decorative oven mitts that do not block heat, I am going to go use them to pull my seasoning cast iron skillet from the oven.
 
Marvin the Martian said:
Well, that was a rant with no meaning.

We have NO idea what the heart risks are on COVID patients taking Hydroxychloroquine because NO ONE HAS DONE A STUDY. How could we possibly kbow?

The task Force is frequently asked about antibody testing, and the answer is "soon" or "next week". The catch is, we have no idea how accurate the testing is. See CNN story. If you Google "antibody testing" you will see California has just begun a massive study on it, along with hundreds of articles from,large and small media across the nation.

What do you mean by, "no info on what we are doing about currently infected test"? I imagine test kits that are infected get destroyed, as would non-infected. I do not know that is important. If you mean the people, that has been covered ad naseum. If one meets the criteria to be hospitalized, which depends on state and hospital guidelines, they are hospitalized. Otherwise they are told to self-quarantine. You do so until you have been fever free for 72 hours AND not taking any medicine to reduce the fever. See NPR story. CNN has had Sanjay Gupta on all the time discussing it from the PoV of a doc, and Chris Cuomo has it and has discussed it from the patient PoV.

Americans are well trained in sports, and sports always have a score. As a result, we have a huge appetite for who is winning and by how much. The media has been making some mistakes. Several CNN people harp on points way too long. But the bottom line is they are largely giving people the news they want. I know that because if they were not, people would stop watching tv news, visiting news websites.

And part of the problem is the age old politicians vs the press. No one in Washington is going to give solid numbers about exactly what date how many widgets will be available, they have no idea. Too many variables. Heck, Holcomb's first dozen press conferences he refused to say how many ICU beds were in Indiana, saying it was proprietary information.

Simply put, if the government isn't sharing the info it is dang tough to find the info. Just on test kits, the country is a huge place with dozens of labs making them. The media probably does not know all the places making them. So the only way to get that info is to ask people like Trump and Fauci. And that question comes up often. Just last week Trump responded to the question on widespread testing by saying it was not even necessary.

Simply put, right now we know what Trump et al want us to know. And they are not giving firm deadlines about when we will have x or y because they do not want blamed if they miss the mark.
Click to expand...

HC has been around a long time. no reason to assume it would affect CV patients hearts any different than others, till proven otherwise.

but again, we get almost zero real info on anything, so we don't even know what the risks are compared to heart risks for all other meds..

that said, if it came that time, would you not try it?

i'm guessing you'd try it in an instant if it came that time for you or a loved one, absent any info that it was counterproductive.
 
Marvin the Martian said:
Well, that was a rant with no meaning.

We have NO idea what the heart risks are on COVID patients taking Hydroxychloroquine because NO ONE HAS DONE A STUDY. How could we possibly kbow?

The task Force is frequently asked about antibody testing, and the answer is "soon" or "next week". The catch is, we have no idea how accurate the testing is. See CNN story. If you Google "antibody testing" you will see California has just begun a massive study on it, along with hundreds of articles from,large and small media across the nation.

What do you mean by, "no info on what we are doing about currently infected test"? I imagine test kits that are infected get destroyed, as would non-infected. I do not know that is important. If you mean the people, that has been covered ad naseum. If one meets the criteria to be hospitalized, which depends on state and hospital guidelines, they are hospitalized. Otherwise they are told to self-quarantine. You do so until you have been fever free for 72 hours AND not taking any medicine to reduce the fever. See NPR story. CNN has had Sanjay Gupta on all the time discussing it from the PoV of a doc, and Chris Cuomo has it and has discussed it from the patient PoV.

Americans are well trained in sports, and sports always have a score. As a result, we have a huge appetite for who is winning and by how much. The media has been making some mistakes. Several CNN people harp on points way too long. But the bottom line is they are largely giving people the news they want. I know that because if they were not, people would stop watching tv news, visiting news websites.

And part of the problem is the age old politicians vs the press. No one in Washington is going to give solid numbers about exactly what date how many widgets will be available, they have no idea. Too many variables. Heck, Holcomb's first dozen press conferences he refused to say how many ICU beds were in Indiana, saying it was proprietary information.

Simply put, if the government isn't sharing the info it is dang tough to find the info. Just on test kits, the country is a huge place with dozens of labs making them. The media probably does not know all the places making them. So the only way to get that info is to ask people like Trump and Fauci. And that question comes up often. Just last week Trump responded to the question on widespread testing by saying it was not even necessary.

Simply put, right now we know what Trump et al want us to know. And they are not giving firm deadlines about when we will have x or y because they do not want blamed if they miss the mark.
Click to expand...

no, we aren't getting sht for real info on testing what so ever, with the antibodies tests or the who's currently infected tests. (just as we didn't on PPE. just bitching "where is it").

all we get is "where are the tests" bitching all day every day.

tells us who all makes them.. where do we stand with orders.. what is involved in making them and and how do they work.. what US manufactures are doing to ramp up production, and where exactly do we stand with that.. what money has been thrown at US manufacturers to get them to transition over to making tests.. are there property rights involved with hold ups. are the issues with the antibodies tests in the lab work, and if so, what are the issues.. if someone gets a false positive on an antibodies test, will they get a false positive on multiple tests if they take it multiple times.. what are our current blood testing abilities.. what all needs to be done to be able to scale up to doing 400 million blood tests as soon as the serological/immunity/antibodies test becomes reliable enough, and for the 400 million blood tests to be done by newly trained young people, so our existing healthcare pros can focus on what they are doing already, and dealing with all the CV and non CV healthcare needs..

the media is doing an F minus minus minus job of asking the right questions and giving us any information we need. (maybe because Comcast, AT&T, News corp/Fox, CBS, Disney, are all way way too in bed with govt to ever be journalists anymore).

our elected leaders are doing an F minus minus minus job of leading, and just playing politics all day every day, while doing absolutely zero leading and getting things done, and planing ahead, instead of waiting for each easily foreseeable crisis to already be all over us, then asking where are the supplies we need that they didn't get made and delivered, and where are the trained personnel that they didn't get trained, and then absolving themselves of any blame what so ever for not doing their job, and then doing their best academy award winning false indignance act to the cameras asking why nothing has been done, when they ARE the why...

i guess maybe it's because they are all way too busy asking Wall St and the big banks how many trillions they want the Fed to print up and just give them, to cover Wall Street's total failure to plan and build for the future as well.
 
i'vegotwinners said:
HC has been around a long time. no reason to assume it would affect CV patients hearts any different than others, till proven otherwise.

but again, we get almost zero real info on anything, so we don't even know what the risks are compared to heart risks for all other meds..

that said, if it came that time, would you not try it?

i'm guessing you'd try it in an instant if it came that time for you or a loved one, absent any info that it was counterproductive.
Click to expand...

I asked the question a week ago, when would people try it? Before being diagnosed? At diagnosis? When things got bad? I have no clue what the "right" time would be but I am comforted by the fact no one on here knows either. Up until one gets on a ventilator, the odds of dying from COVID is fairly low. But the problem is that those that go south go from "doing ok" to "in dire straights" pretty quickly. So I might not be able to make the call myself.

So my answer has been what Hillz answered, when/if my doctor said to try it I would try it. My doctor, not the president or some talk show host. If they feel it is time for a Hail Mary, it is time for it.

No one seems to know the likelihood of side effects for hydroxychloroquine. Drugs.com and the Mayo both say incident rates are unknown for all the side effects listed. See https://www.drugs.com/sfx/hydroxychloroquine-side-effects.html for example.
 
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