Dangerous stuff--open letter from former generals and admirals questioning the election

INRanger27

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I can also distinguish the nut who has these beliefs and the nut with terrible judgment who uses a social media megaphone to advertise the crazy. If that crazy spills over into my business then it is my business.
Precisely. That’s all I’m saying.

Part of the reason our society is so freaking dumb and easily manipulated by left and right dividers is because people of the idiot variety have a platform and everyone has to play along. Enough is enough.
 
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Bloom.

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The internet doesn’t talk; people do. We need to decide what and whom to believe in real time. We are as likely to get B.S. from a government office, mainstream media, or the internet.

The internet gives people a voice. It also gives people access. When people dive down the rabbit hole with no alternative points of view that leads to a very narrow pathway for any facts to be delivered. Mainstream media is the least of our concerns.


Legit questions? Are you in favor of a Federal Bureau of Legit Questions? The beauty of the First Amendment is that the authorities don’t have a say in what is a legit question or speech. I like that. The problem now is that those who operate the levers of expressive power put their thumbs on the scale.
No one here is acting like or as the government, so it's not bad to qualify whether or not a question or opinion is legit or valid. If someone is wrong about something but persist in the face of facts they become a liar. If they continue, depending on who they are, they could become something much worse.

A line was crossed on January 6, and while it proved the strength of our government, it also showed hundreds of stupid people can be led to do incredibly stupid things.
 

CO. Hoosier

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So you’d have no problem learning your clerks are all police-hating marxists and had positive confidence that it wouldn’t interfere with their work?

Im not saying businesses should fire people over their beliefs even if patently absurd. I’m saying that once a manager knows his dude is a full blown jackass (due to overt online activity) it’s pretty hard to not think the dude is a jackass at work too.
I’ll use your history as an example. I recall the disgusting things you said about Sarah Sanders in the thread we had about her being asked to leave that restaurant. Those were the kinds of comments I wouldn’t want my supervisors to say about anybody, including my employees. If you worked for me as a manager of employees, I would have at least talked to you about it, and maybe discharged you. On the other hand, if all you did was sweep my floors I likely wouldn’t fire you provided you didn’t speak in that way at work.
 

CO. Hoosier

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The internet gives people a voice. It also gives people access. When people dive down the rabbit hole with no alternative points of view that leads to a very narrow pathway for any facts to be delivered. Mainstream media is the least of our concerns.
Disagree. Mainstream media has a responsibility to provide to all of us the information needed to choose our rabbit holes. It fails at the job. It is getting worse
No one here is acting like or as the government, so it's not bad to qualify whether or not a question or opinion is legit or valid. If someone is wrong about something but persist in the face of facts they become a liar. If they continue, depending on who they are, they could become something much worse.
Facts are not so clear. And despite the ridicule heaped on Kellyanne Conway, she was absolutely correct about alternative facts. Facts are always cherry-picked when used to support an argument. There are alternative cherries. The point is “the face of facts” is a subjective judgment.
 
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hoot1

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They served in the same Swift boat squadron, which is the same unit when it comes to a boat squadrons.
One of the sources for my remark had this to say in part about the Swift Boat Vets organization (SBVT) which opposed Kerry in 2004....

SBVT was formed in 2004. Membership was initially limited to veterans of the Vietnam War who at some point served in a Swift boat unit, as did Kerry.

Of the 3,500 Swift boat sailors who served in Vietnam, the names of some 250 appeared on the group's statement against Kerry; most did not serve at the same time or in the same place as Kerry.[22][23][24] Founding members of SBVT include Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (retired), a former commander of Swift boat forces; Colonel Bud Day, who earned the Medal of Honor; Houston attorney John O'Neill, an officer who became commander of Swift Boat PCF 94 several months after Kerry's departure in 1969 and who appeared opposite Kerry in a televised 1971 debate between them on The Dick Cavett Show; and 13 other named veterans. Several of those who joined SBVT during the 2004 campaign were officers who had previously praised Kerry's conduct during the Vietnam War.
 

mushroomgod_1

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I wholeheartedly agree. However, questioning the integrity of the election was not remotely close to what we had after the 2020 election. What we had was one man’s assertions of widespread voter fraud, when not a shred of evidence was found. We then had a large group of powerful political enablers, who continued to perpetuate these assertions. This has led to a further disruption in the belief we have a stable functioning democracy, with 70% of one party believing our current President is not legitimate.

Again, I’m all for questioning elections, I’m just not for lying and attempting to overturn a legitimate election. This is where the undemocratic and unconstitutional part comes in.

I'm sure you were in favor of the attempt to overturn the prior election via the Russian hoax. Have you condemned the lies of Adam Schiff in that regard?
 

IU_Hickory

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I'm sure you were in favor of the attempt to overturn the prior election via the Russian hoax. Have you condemned the lies of Adam Schiff in that regard?

what russian hoax? When something happened, it is not a hoax.

You have to prove they are lies before one would condemn them.
 
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cosmickid

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We need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that there is something unconstitutional, undemocratic, or untoward about attacking or questioning elections. The ability to do that is the sign of a healthy and robust democracy. Limiting that puts us in North Korean territory.
If only we had recounts and the judiciary to provide the mechanics to do that. Gore conceded an election he most likely won following a single ruling by the SCOTUS.

The Trump cult is still disputing the results of an election they lost by Seven MILLION votes with looney-tune theories about ballots "flown in from China" or dead Dictators who somehow facilitated the altering of ballots nearly a decade following their deaths. And like all conspiracy theorists, the more evidence and proof you give them to deal with actual reality, the more convinced they become that Obama is a lizard...
 

mcmurtry66

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If only we had recounts and the judiciary to provide the mechanics to do that. Gore conceded an election he most likely won following a single ruling by the SCOTUS.

The Trump cult is still disputing the results of an election they lost by Seven MILLION votes with looney-tune theories about ballots "flown in from China" or dead Dictators who somehow facilitated the altering of ballots nearly a decade following their deaths. And like all conspiracy theorists, the more evidence and proof you give them to deal with actual reality, the more convinced they become that Obama is a lizard...
You would benefit greatly from a computer virus
 
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cosmickid

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So you're hinting at the 'it was Pelosi's fault' for Jan 6th?

That was one of my favorite right wing gaslighting responses (along with 'it was antifa and BLM!') that when right wingers storm and attack, it's still those damn liberals fault.
Not only is the Antifa/BLM boogeyman a perfect example of gaslighting to the extreme, but it's also super effective with its intended audience. Check out the imbecile outside the AZ recount who Klepper encounters in this video. He even resorts to the ultra Trumpian "Many people are saying" word speak standby...

 
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INRanger27

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I’ll use your history as an example. I recall the disgusting things you said about Sarah Sanders in the thread we had about her being asked to leave that restaurant. Those were the kinds of comments I wouldn’t want my supervisors to say about anybody, including my employees. If you worked for me as a manager of employees, I would have at least talked to you about it, and maybe discharged you. On the other hand, if all you did was sweep my floors I likely wouldn’t fire you provided you didn’t speak in that way at work.
I’m an anonymous guy on a message board. If I had Facebook and was posting “mean” comments about a situation I wasn’t even involved in, I’d expect that to have negative repercussions in my life. There’s a difference between anonymity and real life posting.

and I doubt I said much “disgusting” about Sarah sanders other than calling her a bald face liar....which she was and likely is.
 
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INRanger27

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Not only is the Antifa/BLM boogeyman a perfect example of gaslighting to the extreme, but it's also super effective with its intended audience. Check out the imbecile outside the AZ recount who Klepper encounters in this video. He even resorts to the ultra Trumpian "Many people are saying" word speak standby...

Uhhh there are hundreds of business owners across the nation and dozens of family members of deceased people who would beg to differ with your ludicrous assertion that BLM and Antifa are “gaslighting” examples. Seriously, do better.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Mainstream media has a responsibility to provide to all of us the information needed to choose our rabbit holes. It fails at the job. It is getting worse
Let us take flat earth as I think we agree that is a stupid hoax. What is the mainstream media's responsibility in reporting on flat earth? How much airtime should flat earthers be given? Should the media rebut their points? If I discover a store I shop at is owned by a major purveyor of flat earth, do I have a right to refuse to shop there? Can I ask others not to? If it makes you feel better, replace flat earth with antivaxx where people will certainly die because of the lies.
 

NPT

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It certainly calls their judgment into question no? And would you as a business owner want to have people of questionable judgment working for your money?

People don’t need to post their stupid opinions on non-anonymous boards/media. That they chose to do so shows their poor judgment
Of course there's a point where I think they show questionable judgement but that point is not just because they support a different candidate than I do.

I agree .... we'd be a lot better off if people kept a lot of their thoughts behind closed doors but it makes some people feel important when they are behind that keyboard spouting stuff.
 

Bulk VanderHuge

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Of course there's a point where I think they show questionable judgement but that point is not just because they support a different candidate than I do.

I agree .... we'd be a lot better off if people kept a lot of their thoughts behind closed doors but it makes some people feel important when they are behind that keyboard spouting stuff.
Or moderating that stuff.

:) (I keed, I keed.)
 
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NPT

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If you post that you plan on driving down to the BLM protest to show those “people” what a MAGA beat down looks like, your ass should be fired.
And vice versa ... if BLM post that they are gonna go protest something on the opposite side they should be fired too.

But like INRanger27 has said (paraphrasing)...A lot of the stuff that is called racist on here and in the media is not racist.
 
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mcmurtry66

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Colorado recognizes a public policy exception to at will. An employer can’t take adverse job action for certain kinds of conduct that the public has an interest in protecting.
the public policy exception doesn't look like speech coh. it looks more like being terminated for reporting whistle blower type shit. i think at will still carries the day for most states with few meaningful exceptions
 

Aloha Hoosier

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One of the sources for my remark had this to say in part about the Swift Boat Vets organization (SBVT) which opposed Kerry in 2004....

SBVT was formed in 2004. Membership was initially limited to veterans of the Vietnam War who at some point served in a Swift boat unit, as did Kerry.

Of the 3,500 Swift boat sailors who served in Vietnam, the names of some 250 appeared on the group's statement against Kerry; most did not serve at the same time or in the same place as Kerry.[22][23][24] Founding members of SBVT include Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (retired), a former commander of Swift boat forces; Colonel Bud Day, who earned the Medal of Honor; Houston attorney John O'Neill, an officer who became commander of Swift Boat PCF 94 several months after Kerry's departure in 1969 and who appeared opposite Kerry in a televised 1971 debate between them on The Dick Cavett Show; and 13 other named veterans. Several of those who joined SBVT during the 2004 campaign were officers who had previously praised Kerry's conduct during the Vietnam War.
You're right, but I was only talking about those that were serving in the squadron at the same time, not all the members of SBVT.
 

Aloha Hoosier

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If only we had recounts and the judiciary to provide the mechanics to do that. Gore conceded an election he most likely won following a single ruling by the SCOTUS.

The Trump cult is still disputing the results of an election they lost by Seven MILLION votes with looney-tune theories about ballots "flown in from China" or dead Dictators who somehow facilitated the altering of ballots nearly a decade following their deaths. And like all conspiracy theorists, the more evidence and proof you give them to deal with actual reality, the more convinced they become that Obama is a lizard...
No, would not have "most likely won." He would have lost and Bush would have increased the margin:

The Miami Herald and USA Today reported in Wednesday's papers that Mr. Bush would have expanded his 537-vote margin of victory to 1,665 votes if the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court had gone ahead under the most inclusive standards, where even partial punches and dimples were counted as votes.

If Gore had conceded after the first state-wide recount, which was required because it was so close, we'd have a lot less animosity and mistrust between the parties than we have now. We might have avoided Trump. I really wish we had.
 

INRanger27

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If only we had recounts and the judiciary to provide the mechanics to do that. Gore conceded an election he most likely won following a single ruling by the SCOTUS.

The Trump cult is still disputing the results of an election they lost by Seven MILLION votes with looney-tune theories about ballots "flown in from China" or dead Dictators who somehow facilitated the altering of ballots nearly a decade following their deaths. And like all conspiracy theorists, the more evidence and proof you give them to deal with actual reality, the more convinced they become that Obama is a lizard...
The amount of likes you got for a post insinuating that Gore won is both ironic and scary.
 

CO. Hoosier

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the public policy exception doesn't look like speech coh. it looks more like being terminated for reporting whistle blower type shit. i think at will still carries the day for most states with few meaningful exceptions
Yeah. The seminal case is a whistleblower case. But creative lawyers have pushed it all over the place. Much of it was superseded by the legal off the job conduct statute. That statute was pushed by the tobacco lobby to protect smokers, but it has been taken to other conduct also.
 
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larsIU

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The amount of likes you got for a post insinuating that Gore won is both ironic and scary.
Meh. I agreed with the first sentence and second paragraph. The Gore stuff, to me, is neither here nor there.
 

Bowlmania

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If Gore had conceded after the first state-wide recount, which was required because it was so close, we'd have a lot less animosity and mistrust between the parties than we have now. We might have avoided Trump. I really wish we had.
Wait. So Al Gore is somehow responsible for the Trump shitshow and the "Stop the Steal!" madness? What utter nonsense.
 

Stuffshot

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Colorado recognizes a public policy exception to at will. An employer can’t take adverse job action for certain kinds of conduct that the public has an interest in protecting.
Don't get too worked up, everyone.

The Colorado Department of Labor describes Colorado employment law as follows (not at all earthshattering from what little I know about state employment law):

 

CO. Hoosier

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Let us take flat earth as I think we agree that is a stupid hoax. What is the mainstream media's responsibility in reporting on flat earth? How much airtime should flat earthers be given? Should the media rebut their points? If I discover a store I shop at is owned by a major purveyor of flat earth, do I have a right to refuse to shop there? Can I ask others not to? If it makes you feel better, replace flat earth with antivaxx where people will certainly die because of the lies.
I don't think arguing a point based on an extreme and ridiculous example is useful. Let's look at "Jim Crow on Steroids" as a better example. Biden's claim about that is at least political bluster. More likely it was focused-grouped dishonesty created by his speech writers. In any event it was amplified by a media that was driven by an agenda instead of honest and factual reporting. The mental midgets at MLB used the commotion stirred up by Biden and his the media to pull the all-star game; doing real damage to small business owners and employees of large businesses. Meanwhile, the average (probably black) fan who was looking forward to the Hank Aaron celebration at the game is left scratching his head wondering WTF?

The media deliberately ignored the opportunity to explain to the public what Jim Crow laws really were about and provide some useful information about the new Georgia law for public consumption. But nooooo. Protecting Biden was more important. In the long term good race relations, trust in government, trust in the media, and admiration of MLB all took an irreparable hit.
 

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