Dangerous stuff--open letter from former generals and admirals questioning the election

CO. Hoosier

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right or wrong closeness matters because judges are just people. and the law is only part of a case. you know that coh. a perfect example is the hanging chads case. it was a clear issue that a judge could understand with defined voters. the issue was clear and the remedy was clear. in these bizarre cases they didn't pass the smell test - the pleadings were goofy and amorphous and the remedies were absurd - no judge is going to invalidate/disenfranchise the votes of thousands if not millions of people.

you have to give a judge a clear issue to resolve and you have to give him a practical remedy. w/o both forget it
Agreed. The relief sought was never going to be granted. The Trump team and the GOP slept through the pre-election measures the Democrats forced through legislation, litigation, and a massive covid PR campaign carried out by a sycophant press. There is statistical evidence of funny business, but the time to address that was before the election.
 
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CO. Hoosier

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The people. Like I said, someone posts junk on Facebook their employer has a right to hire someone else. Businesses have a right not to advertise with people. I have a right not to shop.
I understand. Do you really think people should lose job opportunities because of stating an opinion about politics? In Colorado, an employer who discharges an employee for legal off the job conduct (with some exceptions) is subject to a wrongful discharge claim. I think that is a good law. Should it be expanded to hiring decisions ?
 

CO. Hoosier

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So you're hinting at the 'it was Pelosi's fault' for Jan 6th?

That was one of my favorite right wing gaslighting responses (along with 'it was antifa and BLM!') that when right wingers storm and attack, it's still those damn liberals fault.

That's like if you break into my house, stab me in my sleep and rape my girlfriend well it was my fault because I should have owned a gun and not have such a gorgeous girlfriend.

Makes total sense.
Idiotic post. You have done better.
 

INRanger27

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Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course and if people want to write down and share their stupidity then, go for it in general.

Of course there's a fine line between opinions and influence, which is the distinction.

Hopefully this is just something that gets rejected and laughed at as another extreme group of people who are a little to far down the rabbit hole.

For me though, I'm curious for the whatabout.

My gf's pops is a good dude but is an Al Queda level Trump supporter who when I asked about the military dissing Tucker Carlson who said our military is getting more feminine and shouldn't outfit females who are pregnant.

He raised his voice and said 'the military has one job. Serve your country and shut your f#$king mouth!!!

I'm curious on his reaction to this story.
Trust me. Nobody is paying attention to these unknown generals.
 

INRanger27

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I understand. Do you really think people should lose job opportunities because of stating an opinion about politics? In Colorado, an employer who discharges an employee for legal off the job conduct (with some exceptions) is subject to a wrongful discharge claim. I think that is a good law. Should it be expanded to hiring decisions ?
If somebody proves themself an ass in public and I don’t want to hire them or continue to write them a paycheck, that should be ok.
 
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BradStevens

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Trust me. Nobody is paying attention to these unknown generals.
By nobody, are you referring to current military? If so, that would make me feel better.

How long have you been out? What percentage of the Army would you guess might believe the election was stolen?
 

INRanger27

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By nobody, are you referring to current military? If so, that would make me feel better.

How long have you been out? What percentage of the Army would you guess might believe the election was stolen?
I’ve been out for 13 years. I believe the proportion of military personnel that believe it was stolen is likely somewhat higher than the general population but not by a lot.
 

Bill4411

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Those old codgers do prove one thing that you can get to old to make sound decisions and they proved it 124 times.
 
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Marvin the Martian

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I understand. Do you really think people should lose job opportunities because of stating an opinion about politics? In Colorado, an employer who discharges an employee for legal off the job conduct (with some exceptions) is subject to a wrongful discharge claim. I think that is a good law. Should it be expanded to hiring decisions ?

So Americans have a universal right to flat out lie with no repercussions from anyone at all and you think this is good? I bet if you look quite a few of those French revolutionaries you speak about often did that in their ascent to power, as did Mussolini and Hitler.
 
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Joe_Hoopsier

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I’ve been out for 13 years. I believe the proportion of military personnel that believe it was stolen is likely somewhat higher than the general population but not by a lot.
So you would think about 83% of current military think it was stolen then, right?
 

TommyCracker

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Idiotic post. You have done better.

Yeah I probably misread what you wrote and doubled down on the exaggeration.

Still, what did you mean by this?

I think the Capitol fencing and 25k uniformed troops was irresponsible

I took it as a common right wing deflection for the Jan 6th insurrection.

I apologize if I misread it. I probably saw 'irresponsible' and read it as 'was responsible'.
 

Bill4411

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So Americans have a universal right to flat out lie with no repercussions from anyone at all and you think this is good? I bet if you look quite a few of those French revolutionaries you speak about often did that in their ascent to power, as did Mussolini and Hitler.
It's the Ayn Rand way-whatever makes you happy is all you need.


Rand's hero Roark, in fact, "raged" so much in her novel that he blew up a public housing project with dynamite just to get what he wanted. Sort of like the plans of the person who planted bombs at the RNC and DNC headquarters the night before January 6th.

Rand, in her Journals, explained where she got her inspiration for Howard Roark and so many of her other novels. She writes that the theme of The Fountainhead, for example, is, "One puts oneself above all and crushes everything in one's way to get the best for oneself."
On Trump's hero Howard Roark, she wrote that he "has learned long ago, with his first consciousness, two things which dominate his entire attitude toward life: his own superiority and the utter worthlessness of the world. He knows what he wants and what he thinks. He needs no other reasons, standards or considerations. His complete selfishness is as natural to him as breathing."

It turns out that Roark and many of her other characters were based on a real person. The man who so inspired Ayn Rand's fictional heroes was named William Edward Hickman, and he lived in Los Angeles during the Roaring Twenties.

Ten days before Christmas in 1927, Hickman, a teenager with slicked dark hair and tiny, muted eyes, drove up to Mount Vernon Junior High School in Los Angeles and kidnapped Marion Parker — the daughter of a wealthy banker in town.

Hickman held the girl ransom, demanding $1,500 from her father — back then about a year's salary. Supremely confident that he would elude capture, Hickman signed his name on the ransom notes, "The Fox."

After two days, Marion's father agreed to hand over the ransom in exchange for the safety of his daughter. What Perry Parker didn't know is that Hickman never intended to live up to his end of the bargain.

The Pittsburgh Press detailed what Hickman, in his own words, did next.

"It was while I was fixing the blindfold that the urge to murder came upon me," he said. "I just couldn't help myself. I got a towel and stepped up behind Marion. Then, before she could move, I put it around her neck and twisted it tightly."

Hickman didn't hold back on any of these details: he was proud of his cold-bloodedness.

"I held on and she made no outcry except to gurgle. I held on for about two minutes, I guess, and then I let go. When I cut loose the fastenings, she fell to the floor. I knew she was dead."

But Hickman wasn't finished. "After she was dead I carried her body into the bathroom and undressed her, all but the underwear, and cut a hole in her throat with a pocket knife to let the blood out."

Hickman then dismembered the child piece-by-piece, putting her limbs in a cabinet in his apartment, and then wrapped up the carved-up torso, powdered the lifeless face of Marion Parker, set what was left of her stump torso with the head sitting atop it in the passenger seat of his car, and drove to meet her father to collect the ransom money.

He even sewed open her eyelids to make it look like she was alive.

On the way, Hickman dumped body parts out of his car window, before rendezvousing with Marion Parker's father.

Armed with a shotgun so her father wouldn't come close enough to Hickman's car to see that Marion was dead, Hickman collected his $1,500, then kicked open the door and tossed the rest of Marion Parker onto the road. As he sped off, her father fell to his knees, screaming.

Days later, the police caught up with a defiant and unrepentant Hickman in Oregon. His lawyers pleaded insanity, but the jury gave him the gallows.
 

mcmurtry66

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It's the Ayn Rand way-whatever makes you happy is all you need.


Rand's hero Roark, in fact, "raged" so much in her novel that he blew up a public housing project with dynamite just to get what he wanted. Sort of like the plans of the person who planted bombs at the RNC and DNC headquarters the night before January 6th.

Rand, in her Journals, explained where she got her inspiration for Howard Roark and so many of her other novels. She writes that the theme of The Fountainhead, for example, is, "One puts oneself above all and crushes everything in one's way to get the best for oneself."
On Trump's hero Howard Roark, she wrote that he "has learned long ago, with his first consciousness, two things which dominate his entire attitude toward life: his own superiority and the utter worthlessness of the world. He knows what he wants and what he thinks. He needs no other reasons, standards or considerations. His complete selfishness is as natural to him as breathing."

It turns out that Roark and many of her other characters were based on a real person. The man who so inspired Ayn Rand's fictional heroes was named William Edward Hickman, and he lived in Los Angeles during the Roaring Twenties.

Ten days before Christmas in 1927, Hickman, a teenager with slicked dark hair and tiny, muted eyes, drove up to Mount Vernon Junior High School in Los Angeles and kidnapped Marion Parker — the daughter of a wealthy banker in town.

Hickman held the girl ransom, demanding $1,500 from her father — back then about a year's salary. Supremely confident that he would elude capture, Hickman signed his name on the ransom notes, "The Fox."

After two days, Marion's father agreed to hand over the ransom in exchange for the safety of his daughter. What Perry Parker didn't know is that Hickman never intended to live up to his end of the bargain.

The Pittsburgh Press detailed what Hickman, in his own words, did next.

"It was while I was fixing the blindfold that the urge to murder came upon me," he said. "I just couldn't help myself. I got a towel and stepped up behind Marion. Then, before she could move, I put it around her neck and twisted it tightly."

Hickman didn't hold back on any of these details: he was proud of his cold-bloodedness.

"I held on and she made no outcry except to gurgle. I held on for about two minutes, I guess, and then I let go. When I cut loose the fastenings, she fell to the floor. I knew she was dead."

But Hickman wasn't finished. "After she was dead I carried her body into the bathroom and undressed her, all but the underwear, and cut a hole in her throat with a pocket knife to let the blood out."

Hickman then dismembered the child piece-by-piece, putting her limbs in a cabinet in his apartment, and then wrapped up the carved-up torso, powdered the lifeless face of Marion Parker, set what was left of her stump torso with the head sitting atop it in the passenger seat of his car, and drove to meet her father to collect the ransom money.

He even sewed open her eyelids to make it look like she was alive.

On the way, Hickman dumped body parts out of his car window, before rendezvousing with Marion Parker's father.

Armed with a shotgun so her father wouldn't come close enough to Hickman's car to see that Marion was dead, Hickman collected his $1,500, then kicked open the door and tossed the rest of Marion Parker onto the road. As he sped off, her father fell to his knees, screaming.

Days later, the police caught up with a defiant and unrepentant Hickman in Oregon. His lawyers pleaded insanity, but the jury gave him the gallows.
Bill you left out the productive part
 

Stuffshot

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I don't understand the world anymore.
There is nothing inherent about being a retired general or admiral (assuming they really are such) that makes them experts in all the things they opine about in the letter, some of which are:

-- elections
-- use of executive orders
-- the "Rule of Law"
-- whether proposed legislation would "allow Democrats to forever remain in power"
-- school and business closures
-- censorship
-- "fiscally responsible governing"
-- crime
-- wages
-- freedom of speech and the press
-- energy independence
-- evaluation of another person's mental and physical condition

A person could spend a lifetime becoming knowledgable in just one of the topics. Or, you could just become a retired general and say that's enough for people to think you know everything about everything.
 

CO. Hoosier

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So Americans have a universal right to flat out lie with no repercussions from anyone at all and you think this is good? I bet if you look quite a few of those French revolutionaries you speak about often did that in their ascent to power, as did Mussolini and Hitler.
Yeah. NYT v Sullivan settled that issue in terms of issues or people of public interest. The limitation is actual malice toward a specific individual.
 

INRanger27

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Jan 11, 2005
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It's the Ayn Rand way-whatever makes you happy is all you need.


Rand's hero Roark, in fact, "raged" so much in her novel that he blew up a public housing project with dynamite just to get what he wanted. Sort of like the plans of the person who planted bombs at the RNC and DNC headquarters the night before January 6th.

Rand, in her Journals, explained where she got her inspiration for Howard Roark and so many of her other novels. She writes that the theme of The Fountainhead, for example, is, "One puts oneself above all and crushes everything in one's way to get the best for oneself."
On Trump's hero Howard Roark, she wrote that he "has learned long ago, with his first consciousness, two things which dominate his entire attitude toward life: his own superiority and the utter worthlessness of the world. He knows what he wants and what he thinks. He needs no other reasons, standards or considerations. His complete selfishness is as natural to him as breathing."

It turns out that Roark and many of her other characters were based on a real person. The man who so inspired Ayn Rand's fictional heroes was named William Edward Hickman, and he lived in Los Angeles during the Roaring Twenties.

Ten days before Christmas in 1927, Hickman, a teenager with slicked dark hair and tiny, muted eyes, drove up to Mount Vernon Junior High School in Los Angeles and kidnapped Marion Parker — the daughter of a wealthy banker in town.

Hickman held the girl ransom, demanding $1,500 from her father — back then about a year's salary. Supremely confident that he would elude capture, Hickman signed his name on the ransom notes, "The Fox."

After two days, Marion's father agreed to hand over the ransom in exchange for the safety of his daughter. What Perry Parker didn't know is that Hickman never intended to live up to his end of the bargain.

The Pittsburgh Press detailed what Hickman, in his own words, did next.

"It was while I was fixing the blindfold that the urge to murder came upon me," he said. "I just couldn't help myself. I got a towel and stepped up behind Marion. Then, before she could move, I put it around her neck and twisted it tightly."

Hickman didn't hold back on any of these details: he was proud of his cold-bloodedness.

"I held on and she made no outcry except to gurgle. I held on for about two minutes, I guess, and then I let go. When I cut loose the fastenings, she fell to the floor. I knew she was dead."

But Hickman wasn't finished. "After she was dead I carried her body into the bathroom and undressed her, all but the underwear, and cut a hole in her throat with a pocket knife to let the blood out."

Hickman then dismembered the child piece-by-piece, putting her limbs in a cabinet in his apartment, and then wrapped up the carved-up torso, powdered the lifeless face of Marion Parker, set what was left of her stump torso with the head sitting atop it in the passenger seat of his car, and drove to meet her father to collect the ransom money.

He even sewed open her eyelids to make it look like she was alive.

On the way, Hickman dumped body parts out of his car window, before rendezvousing with Marion Parker's father.

Armed with a shotgun so her father wouldn't come close enough to Hickman's car to see that Marion was dead, Hickman collected his $1,500, then kicked open the door and tossed the rest of Marion Parker onto the road. As he sped off, her father fell to his knees, screaming.

Days later, the police caught up with a defiant and unrepentant Hickman in Oregon. His lawyers pleaded insanity, but the jury gave him the gallows.
Ummmm what?
 

TommyCracker

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It's the Ayn Rand way-whatever makes you happy is all you need.


Rand's hero Roark, in fact, "raged" so much in her novel that he blew up a public housing project with dynamite just to get what he wanted. Sort of like the plans of the person who planted bombs at the RNC and DNC headquarters the night before January 6th.

Rand, in her Journals, explained where she got her inspiration for Howard Roark and so many of her other novels. She writes that the theme of The Fountainhead, for example, is, "One puts oneself above all and crushes everything in one's way to get the best for oneself."
On Trump's hero Howard Roark, she wrote that he "has learned long ago, with his first consciousness, two things which dominate his entire attitude toward life: his own superiority and the utter worthlessness of the world. He knows what he wants and what he thinks. He needs no other reasons, standards or considerations. His complete selfishness is as natural to him as breathing."

It turns out that Roark and many of her other characters were based on a real person. The man who so inspired Ayn Rand's fictional heroes was named William Edward Hickman, and he lived in Los Angeles during the Roaring Twenties.

Ten days before Christmas in 1927, Hickman, a teenager with slicked dark hair and tiny, muted eyes, drove up to Mount Vernon Junior High School in Los Angeles and kidnapped Marion Parker — the daughter of a wealthy banker in town.

Hickman held the girl ransom, demanding $1,500 from her father — back then about a year's salary. Supremely confident that he would elude capture, Hickman signed his name on the ransom notes, "The Fox."

After two days, Marion's father agreed to hand over the ransom in exchange for the safety of his daughter. What Perry Parker didn't know is that Hickman never intended to live up to his end of the bargain.

The Pittsburgh Press detailed what Hickman, in his own words, did next.

"It was while I was fixing the blindfold that the urge to murder came upon me," he said. "I just couldn't help myself. I got a towel and stepped up behind Marion. Then, before she could move, I put it around her neck and twisted it tightly."

Hickman didn't hold back on any of these details: he was proud of his cold-bloodedness.

"I held on and she made no outcry except to gurgle. I held on for about two minutes, I guess, and then I let go. When I cut loose the fastenings, she fell to the floor. I knew she was dead."

But Hickman wasn't finished. "After she was dead I carried her body into the bathroom and undressed her, all but the underwear, and cut a hole in her throat with a pocket knife to let the blood out."

Hickman then dismembered the child piece-by-piece, putting her limbs in a cabinet in his apartment, and then wrapped up the carved-up torso, powdered the lifeless face of Marion Parker, set what was left of her stump torso with the head sitting atop it in the passenger seat of his car, and drove to meet her father to collect the ransom money.

He even sewed open her eyelids to make it look like she was alive.

On the way, Hickman dumped body parts out of his car window, before rendezvousing with Marion Parker's father.

Armed with a shotgun so her father wouldn't come close enough to Hickman's car to see that Marion was dead, Hickman collected his $1,500, then kicked open the door and tossed the rest of Marion Parker onto the road. As he sped off, her father fell to his knees, screaming.

Days later, the police caught up with a defiant and unrepentant Hickman in Oregon. His lawyers pleaded insanity, but the jury gave him the gallows.
Bill, this is a post we don't get everyday on here.

I had no idea about Hickman and I'm glad I didn't. Lol
 

Cortez88

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I agree. I also think people in positions of authority and responsibility have a duty to act responsibly. I think MLB was irresponsible. I think the Capitol fencing and 25k uniformed troops was irresponsible.
But not a word for the Stop the Steal Rally and the ensuing Insurrection on 1/6? I wonder why that is?
 
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IU_Hickory

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So you would think about 83% of current military think it was stolen then, right?

Assuming all military is gop aligned which it is not.

If the military was a similar cross section of society as general population then 47% about would be GOP. If 83% of gop aligned military thought it was stolen, then looking at a 39% nutso rate.
 

Bill4411

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Aloha Hoosier

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Why does this remind me of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who all claimed to have served in the same unit as John Kerry during the 2004 presidential campaign when it was later revealed all but one didn't ?
They served in the same Swift boat squadron, which is the same unit when it comes to a boat squadrons.
 

NPT

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If somebody proves themself an ass in public and I don’t want to hire them or continue to write them a paycheck, that should be ok.
I think a company should be able to hire who they want but I don't think they should be able to fire a person simply based on their political beliefs unless they are so far out that they are saying things that could hurt the company. In other words they shouldn't be able to fire a person simply because they are a Trump supporter and may believe the election was stolen and express that on social media.
 

Cortez88

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I think a company should be able to hire who they want but I don't think they should be able to fire a person simply based on their political beliefs unless they are so far out that they are saying things that could hurt the company. In other words they shouldn't be able to fire a person simply because they are a Trump supporter and may believe the election was stolen and express that on social media.
I think we can draw a line between political beliefs and posting patently racist, conspiratorial, hateful, violent, etc stuff. If you post that you plan on driving down to the BLM protest to show those “people” what a MAGA beat down looks like, your ass should be fired.
 
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mcmurtry66

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I think a company should be able to hire who they want but I don't think they should be able to fire a person simply based on their political beliefs unless they are so far out that they are saying things that could hurt the company. In other words they shouldn't be able to fire a person simply because they are a Trump supporter and may believe the election was stolen and express that on social media.
Most employment is at will so unless they have a contract or are part of a protected class they can be fired for any or no reason at all
 

larsIU

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We need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that there is something unconstitutional, undemocratic, or untoward about attacking or questioning elections

I'd like to understand your take on the difference between "attacking" and "questioning". I agree we should question irregularities when they present themselves or are presented by others. But what does attacking mean in the above context?
 
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CO. Hoosier

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If somebody proves themself an ass in public and I don’t want to hire them or continue to write them a paycheck, that should be ok.
I don’t think somebody should lose their job because they carry a certain sign or wear a certain kind of hat when they are off duty and away from work.
 

CO. Hoosier

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I think we can draw a line between political beliefs and posting patently racist, conspiratorial, hateful, violent, etc stuff. If you post that you plan on driving down to the BLM protest to show those “people” what a MAGA beat down looks like, your ass should be fired.
Why? Are you suggesting all employment should have a code of conduct that applies 24/7 and anywhere? That is way over the top for me.
 

CO. Hoosier

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I'd like to understand your take on the difference between "attacking" and "questioning". I agree we should question irregularities when they present themselves or are presented by others. But what does attacking mean in the above context?
Asking for judicial review.
 

INRanger27

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I think a company should be able to hire who they want but I don't think they should be able to fire a person simply based on their political beliefs unless they are so far out that they are saying things that could hurt the company. In other words they shouldn't be able to fire a person simply because they are a Trump supporter and may believe the election was stolen and express that on social media.
It certainly calls their judgment into question no? And would you as a business owner want to have people of questionable judgment working for your money?

People don’t need to post their stupid opinions on non-anonymous boards/media. That they chose to do so shows their poor judgment
 

CO. Hoosier

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Most employment is at will so unless they have a contract or are part of a protected class they can be fired for any or no reason at all
Colorado recognizes a public policy exception to at will. An employer can’t take adverse job action for certain kinds of conduct that the public has an interest in protecting.
 
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Cortez88

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Why? Are you suggesting all employment should have a code of conduct that applies 24/7 and anywhere? That is way over the top for me.
In an at will situation, this has always been the case. People get fired for DUIs. Like Ranger says, it’s about judgement.
 

CO. Hoosier

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It certainly calls their judgment into question no? And would you as a business owner want to have people of questionable judgment working for your money?

People don’t need to post their stupid opinions on non-anonymous boards/media. That they chose to do so shows their poor judgment
Shouldn’t the poor judgment be related to job performance? You have said I post stupid stuff on this board, should that be a reason to fire me if all I do is sweep your floors?
 

CO. Hoosier

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In an at will situation, this has always been the case. People get fired for DUIs. Like Ranger says, it’s about judgement.
We aren’t talking about criminal conduct. The issue is about legal conduct away from the job. The problem with your “judgment” argument is that it is subject to arbitrary application. There should be an actual job related impact.
 

INRanger27

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I don’t think somebody should lose their job because they carry a certain sign or wear a certain kind of hat when they are off duty and away from work.
So you’d have no problem learning your clerks are all police-hating marxists and had positive confidence that it wouldn’t interfere with their work?

Im not saying businesses should fire people over their beliefs even if patently absurd. I’m saying that once a manager knows his dude is a full blown jackass (due to overt online activity) it’s pretty hard to not think the dude is a jackass at work too.
 
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INRanger27

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Shouldn’t the poor judgment be related to job performance? You have said I post stupid stuff on this board, should that be a reason to fire me if all I do is sweep your floors?
It’s my business and I’ll do what I want to. Don’t reveal yourself as an anti-vax, defund the police, election was stolen, etc Cause Head if you want to sweep my floors for money.
 

Cortez88

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It’s my business and I’ll do what I want to. Don’t reveal yourself as an anti-vax, defund the police, election was stolen, etc Cause Head if you want to sweep my floors for money.
I can also distinguish the nut who has these beliefs and the nut with terrible judgment who uses a social media megaphone to advertise the crazy. If that crazy spills over into my business then it is my business.
 

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