Daily Show on Critical Race Theory

Marvin the Martian

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Nice post. This is why I keep saying African American slavery is a legacy of the British. We didn’t invent it. We benefited while from the moment of our conception; we debated ending it. I think the original sin thing is a gross oversimplification and gives our kids the wrong message about the debate and ignores the fact that we in fact ended slavery in some states/colonies. Ending slavery in all states wasn’t a simple thing assuming we wanted to keep the colonies united. It finally took a bloody war. I think Lincoln summed up the United message very well in the Gettysburg Address.

We agree that the English brought over slavery. Three times we we faced with a decision, the Declaration, the Articles, the Constitution. Three times we chose to unify with slavery allowed. I am not saying that was a wrong or right decision here. I am saying it is a great discussion point for high schoolers.

It reminds me of 10th grade, my class held a debate for the 4 1860 candidates. I was Breckenridge. Douglass won the election.

1776 portrays the debate interesting-lee. People like Franklin and Adams had a tough decision to make. Where we differ is that the people on the other side did not have an interesting decision. For whatever reason they became fixated that only slavery could bring wealth and could not/would not see any other solution. Ending slavery was a simple thing but they could not see it. I see nothing wrong with pointing out that failure.

Americans died to free slaves. Not all Northern troops fought for that, but Chamberlain is proof some did. The reason that was necessary is some were willing to die to keep slaves. Both sides of that truth are important.
 
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bawlmer

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Education is vital. But free college in and of itself is no answer. Not when we are talking about different standards in order to achieve equity. The meaningful education i speak of begins in primary school.
Not disagreeing with that. But if Blacks have more, and more expensive, debt after getting a degree then bringing down the cost of college goes a long way. It doesn't break the cycle of poverty and despair for the poorest sector, but it lifts a burden for a significant portion of Black Americans who are struggling to get ahead and accumulate wealth.
 
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Schnitzelbonkers

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Only if one thinks the most important thing about America is the colonies' separation from Britain and the formation of our government. We basically don't know what we don't know about the people who inhabited this land before the Europeans arrived.
Jesus Christ.
I am not. Native Americans have lived inside the US since the US was formed. We made treaties, we created reservations, we fought wars. Look at my state's name, Indiana and it's capital, Indianapolis. North and South Dakota are both named for a tribe. Illinois was named for a group of tribes.

Native Americans are part of US history as are Blacks. Our states Florida and then Texas to California came to us from Spain or Mexico. When we think of people coming to America to escape religious persecution in England, that is not at all why people came to those states or even the Louisiana Purchase states.

America is the history of pluralism. Sure, it is fun to poke fun at Louisiana for following Spanish law, but it is part of America.

We brought in Chinese to build our rail system. Our history is pluralism is my point. Not, as 1776 put it, Franklin electrified the ground and out sprang Washington on his horse and the 3 of them rode off and won the war.

Large sections of the Midwest spoke German, as did an entire corps of the Army of the Potomac. Yet I hear our forefathers were all non hyphenated Americans who spoke English. It doesn't explain the dozens of German newspapers that existed up until WW1.

We are a great nation. We are better than just about anyone at equality (from what I read). It is all amazing. But we ALL deserve credit. To quote Blazing Saddles, even the Methodists.
You either went to a shitty school or didn’t pay attention. I learned about all of these things in a school system with no minorities...
 

Marvin the Martian

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Jesus Christ.

You either went to a shitty school or didn’t pay attention. I learned about all of these things in a school system with no minorities...
It is a matter of emphasis. We emphasize the "great man" theory and usually those were men and usually they were White. I know we do better at spreading it out, I recall one of my kids reading about little Turtle. Another chose to do a presentation on Trail of Tears

At the same point, American exceptionalism is often taught/thought of as the pinnacle of western thought. Western thought is White, and many of our Western world were so far behind us why would we consider them (such as Germany)? If there is American exceptionalism it is American and it comes from all of us, the western and non western.

Our founders elected to have a nation that only gave full rights to White men. There is nothing wrong with making sure we all know that everyone's contributions were needed, even those not allowed to take part.
 

INRanger27

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It doesn't have to be college, tradesman training is great. Heck, money for entrepreneurs instead if that makes sense.

Free trade school or Associate degrees. Frankly I am not sure STEM degrees shouldn't be free to everyone anyway. we have fallen way behind.
Tradesmen training is where it’s at. Incentivizing STEM and the trades would catch this country up with the Chinese.
 

INRanger27

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I totally agree with you on liberal arts degrees and tend to side with Steve Forbes back when he ran. He basically said if you want to make money, you need an area of study that makes money.

He got booed, but I agree with him.

Second part of this is I was a Kelley guy but for my humanities I took African American history courses cause I was always fascinated. Anyway, I'm in a large group class and I'm probably one of four white people in a class of 100. The teacher made us stand and announce our majors. The overwhelming majority were liberal arts or social science majors. I made the point that as a business major (cerca 1995) if I had to give the demographics off my head of business 101 classes it would be 55% male, 45% female. 60% white. 25% Asian, 10% Indian and maybe 5% African American.

So if you want the business jobs that make money, you need to get a business degree'.

Short story long, I agree with you that there are a lot of worthless degrees.
And you agree that it’s likely that much of the wealth gap of African Americans can be explained by variables such as education and for those that pursue higher education - major/discipline selection.

My point is that one cannot simply look at a dataset that shows that college grad AAs have less income than white college grads and assume systemic racism. There are many variables at play and is hypothesize the chief one is selecting a field of study likely to earn higher income.

I’m also a Kelley guy - shock I know- and I can count on one hand the non-Asian minority classmates I had there. In my MBA program there was one African American. One! And he’s killing it right now as a VC guy.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
Tradesmen training is where it’s at. Incentivizing STEM and the trades would catch this country up with the Chinese.
I think John Adams inadvertently had it right when it comes to a path out of generational poverty, even though that isn't at all what he was talking about:

I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.​
 

INRanger27

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I think John Adams inadvertently had it right when it comes to a path out of generational poverty, even though that isn't at all what he was talking about:

I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.​
Isn’t that exactly the way of life? Someone in a family must be the bricklayer. Someone has to lay the foundation - literally and figuratively - for the family to establish a foothold from which it may launch itself generation-by-generation.

I was raised middle/lower-middle class and my dad worked his ass off blue collar and for little financial reward. I was able to grow up in a stable household, without nice things, and get good grades and do well in school and begin a career that now has our family much higher up the income ladder.

My kids will probably **** it all up.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Isn’t that exactly the way of life? Someone in a family must be the bricklayer. Someone has to lay the foundation - literally and figuratively - for the family to establish a foothold from which it may launch itself generation-by-generation.

I was raised middle/lower-middle class and my dad worked his ass off blue collar and for little financial reward. I was able to grow up in a stable household, without nice things, and get good grades and do well in school and begin a career that now has our family much higher up the income ladder.

My kids will probably **** it all up.
Yup, they will. I know I did. I got above my station. I should have tried to move up one or two rungs instead of leapfrogging the entire ladder.
 

HooDatGuy

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Marv has spun quite a yarn in this thread but his central thesis seems to be we should acknowledge the contributions of non-white, non-males to American history. No one disagrees with that.

It still doesn’t answer the question why he believes studying pre Columbian chieftains is more important than the founding fathers. On that he should admit his woke proselytizing got the best of him.
 
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INRanger27

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Marv has spun quite a yarn in this thread but his central thesis seems to be we should acknowledge the contributions of non-white, non-males to American history. No one disagrees with that.

It still doesn’t answer the question why he believes studying pre Columbian chieftains is more important than the founding fathers. On that he should admit his woke proselytizing got the best of him.
I don’t think he’s saying more than the founding fathers. He’s saying they should be studied. I guess I’m not sold on that but probably because I’m not that interested.
 

BradStevens

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We agree that the English brought over slavery. Three times we we faced with a decision, the Declaration, the Articles, the Constitution. Three times we chose to unify with slavery allowed. I am not saying that was a wrong or right decision here. I am saying it is a great discussion point for high schoolers.

It reminds me of 10th grade, my class held a debate for the 4 1860 candidates. I was Breckenridge. Douglass won the election.

1776 portrays the debate interesting-lee. People like Franklin and Adams had a tough decision to make. Where we differ is that the people on the other side did not have an interesting decision. For whatever reason they became fixated that only slavery could bring wealth and could not/would not see any other solution. Ending slavery was a simple thing but they could not see it. I see nothing wrong with pointing out that failure.

Americans died to free slaves. Not all Northern troops fought for that, but Chamberlain is proof some did. The reason that was necessary is some were willing to die to keep slaves. Both sides of that truth are important.
Both sides are important. And both sides have been covered in jr high and high school curriculum for at least 50 years, at least in my school system in Indiana.

Why do you say ending slavery in 1776 or 1789 was “ a simple thing?” That doesn’t seem to be consistent with what I’ve read.
 

TommyCracker

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It’s the new 40 🥴. And aren’t you still in a band? That’s closer to 30

Ha ha yeah, I keep telling my friends to let me know when it's time to stop because I'm making a fool out of myself.

We do some 80's tunes (Pour Some Sugar, Livin on a Prayer) and for kids just hitting the bars....thats like me going to see a band doing nothing but rockabilly oldies.

I also don't even get glances from younger women anymore at a show. I used to always have one or two that you could tell were interested in the guitar man but....not anymore as the age gap is too much.

Sigh.

A musician friend who's a decent deal up here, kind of a local legend started opening up club shows. I asked him wtf? Aren't you the headliner?

He said I want to be done by 10 because my base doesn't stay out late anymore so instead of warm up bands I use cool down bands.

Lol but Jesus, we're way to old to rock now.
 

mcmurtry66

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Ha ha yeah, I keep telling my friends to let me know when it's time to stop because I'm making a fool out of myself.

We do some 80's tunes (Pour Some Sugar, Livin on a Prayer) and for kids just hitting the bars....thats like me going to see a band doing nothing but rockabilly oldies.

I also don't even get glances from younger women anymore at a show. I used to always have one or two that you could tell were interested in the guitar man but....not anymore as the age gap is too much.

Sigh.

A musician friend who's a decent deal up here, kind of a local legend started opening up club shows. I asked him wtf? Aren't you the headliner?

He said I want to be done by 10 because my base doesn't stay out late anymore so instead of warm up bands I use cool down bands.

Lol but Jesus, we're way to old to rock now.
That’s fantastic! Never stop.
 

BradStevens

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On the topic of Critical Race Theory/antiracism/equity, here's an interesting podcast with some of the founders of FAIR--The Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism.


It's founders are against racism, but do not agree with the illberal concepts at the root of CRT and Kendi's version of antiracism. They have an ethnically and politically diverse board. Those of you with doubts about CRT/antiracism might find it speaks to you (it does to me). I think they generally do a good job explaining why CRT/antiracism is founded on bad ideas, results in bad policy, and how these ideas found their way into K-12 education.

 

Marvin the Martian

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On the topic of Critical Race Theory/antiracism/equity, here's an interesting podcast with some of the founders of FAIR--The Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism.


It's founders are against racism, but do not agree with the illberal concepts at the root of CRT and Kendi's version of antiracism. They have an ethnically and politically diverse board. Those of you with doubts about CRT/antiracism might find it speaks to you (it does to me). I think they generally do a good job explaining why CRT/antiracism is founded on bad ideas, results in bad policy, and how these ideas found their way into K-12 education.


How we discuss race is a good and fair question. My concern is with those who want no discussion.

Clearly some examples have been given that are beyond the pale. But at the same point, race IS and HAS been a major issue in America. The elephant is in the room and needs discussed.
 

Hoopsdoc1978

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On the topic of Critical Race Theory/antiracism/equity, here's an interesting podcast with some of the founders of FAIR--The Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism.


It's founders are against racism, but do not agree with the illberal concepts at the root of CRT and Kendi's version of antiracism. They have an ethnically and politically diverse board. Those of you with doubts about CRT/antiracism might find it speaks to you (it does to me). I think they generally do a good job explaining why CRT/antiracism is founded on bad ideas, results in bad policy, and how these ideas found their way into K-12 education.

Good stuff. New Discourses is also a good listen on this topic, in my opinion.
 

Cortez88

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I mean, it’s obvious what this is all about, but it’s still a little surprising to read it out loud. These guys know their audience.

 
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i'vegotwinners

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so what exactly is "critical race theory".

tried looking it up without much luck.

guess i need a really dumbed down explanation.
 

Hoopsdoc1978

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I mean, it’s obvious what this is all about, but it’s still a little surprising to read it out loud. These guys know their audience.

That’s a really dumb thing to say and I’m no scholar on critical race theory, but from what I’ve gathered, it IS nonsense.
Not a bad summary here:

I wasn’t aware that critical theory, including critical race theory, is a Marxist line of thought. It makes sense though.
 

Cortez88

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That’s a really dumb thing to say and I’m no scholar on critical race theory, but from what I’ve gathered, it IS nonsense.

I wasn’t aware that critical theory, including critical race theory, is a Marxist line of thought. It makes sense though.
It may well be nonsense, but it is being weaponized by right wing media outlets to cultivate cultural outrage. Like the term socialism, it gins up a rage in those who have no idea what it really means or will ever care to look it up.
 

BradStevens

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It may well be nonsense, but it is being weaponized by right wing media outlets to cultivate cultural outrage. Like the term socialism, it gins up a rage in those who have no idea what it really means or will ever care to look it up.
But if it IS nonsense, and you think it’s current application hurts society, isn’t it appropriate to be “outraged?”
 

IUCrazy2

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Yup, they will. I know I did. I got above my station. I should have tried to move up one or two rungs instead of leapfrogging the entire ladder.
Why though? There is no rule that says you can only do this ring or that one. The idea to me is to at the very least maintain. Life can throw you curve balls, but try and maintain.

Never apologize for trying to do better. Never. Even if things did not end up as planned. That is why I am so totally against some of our messaging to kids. They should be encouraged to try and to have the ability to fail (and learn from failure) at a young age.

You are roughly 42 based on past conversations. You have a baseline available to you because you shot for the moon. Just because you had some rocket failures does not mean the there still is not time to land your Apollo mission.
 
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Cortez88

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But if it IS nonsense, and you think it’s current application hurts society, isn’t it appropriate to be “outraged?”
I have to be honest, I care so little about this that I have not spent a minute trying to learn what it is or why it pisses so many people off. I was pointing out the bad faith being openly stated by one of the drivers of the outrage.
 

IUCrazy2

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It may well be nonsense, but it is being weaponized by right wing media outlets to cultivate cultural outrage. Like the term socialism, it gins up a rage in those who have no idea what it really means or will ever care to look it up.
The only cultural outrage I have is that it brings us all down. Minorities can succeed in this world. Stop telling their kids this defeatist "the deck is stacked against you" crap. Are some people going to judge you by what you look like? Yes. Your color will cause some people to treat you differently. Being unattractive or looking poor will be barriers for others. However, screw those people because there are plenty of opportunities for you out there with people who do not feel that way.

By the same token, a 12 year old white kid today should know what happened in the past. What they should not be told is that they share blame in that. They did nothing wrong. Their only duty is to treat people with respect based on their actions or, forgive me because this rules up the anti-racists, on the content of their character. That is the education I received as a late Gen X kid and I think things were trending better as my generation grew. Then the script got flipped and now everybody is "I am a CIS, white, rich, handicapped, male and therefore I think X". This intersectionality stuff went from a way to explain some situations to being people's identities. It is making things go backwards IMO.
 

larsIU

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I have to be honest, I care so little about this that I have not spent a minute trying to learn what it is or why it pisses so many people off. I was pointing out the bad faith being openly stated by one of the drivers of the outrage.
Well, whatever you do, don't go to you tubez and find the Carmel School Board meeting from 4/26 about half way through where they allow public speakers on the hiring of a DEI officer at Carmel. But if you do, stay for the last speaker. It's a treat.
 

Hoopsdoc1978

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But if it IS nonsense, and you think it’s current application hurts society, isn’t it appropriate to be “outraged?”
You beat me to it.
The only cultural outrage I have is that it brings us all down. Minorities can succeed in this world. Stop telling their kids this defeatist "the deck is stacked against you" crap. Are some people going to judge you by what you look like? Yes. Your color will cause some people to treat you differently. Being unattractive or looking poor will be barriers for others. However, screw those people because there are plenty of opportunities for you out there with people who do not feel that way.

By the same token, a 12 year old white kid today should know what happened in the past. What they should not be told is that they share blame in that. They did nothing wrong. Their only duty is to treat people with respect based on their actions or, forgive me because this rules up the anti-racists, on the content of their character. That is the education I received as a late Gen X kid and I think things were trending better as my generation grew. Then the script got flipped and now everybody is "I am a CIS, white, rich, handicapped, male and therefore I think X". This intersectionality stuff went from a way to explain some situations to being people's identities. It is making things go backwards IMO.
Critical race theory would tell you that you are only saying this because you occupy a place of privelege. Therefore, you have no right to speak on it and by doing so, you’re actually perpetuating white supremacy and racism.

It’s absolutely ridiculous.(now I’m doing it)

There is no objective truth in CRT. There is only your privelege and whether you are oppressed or the oppressor.
 

BradStevens

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I have to be honest, I care so little about this that I have not spent a minute trying to learn what it is or why it pisses so many people off. I was pointing out the bad faith being openly stated by one of the drivers of the outrage.
First, I'd like to note that it isn't just far-right wing people who are outraged by CRT/antiracism/wokeness. It's people from all positions on the political spectrum--from liberals to centrists to Marxists. It's also not just people with lighter skin tones who oppose it; there are many black- and brown-skinned people who are pushing back as well.

Second, to me, one of the problems in all these debates and discussions is that CRT isn't easily defined. Each CRT advocate has a slightly different take--it's like trying to define "conservatism," "liberalism," or "progressivism" today.

But that doesn't mean you can't have a general sense of what it is or you can't attribute positions that most CRT proponents embrace, and object to it. I don't agree with the argument that you can't have an opinion on CRT if you can't pinpoint a succinct definition of it (usually made by people who also cannot define it and have never read a piece of CRT "scholarship" or criticism).

I also see CRT proponents in the media (including Trevor Noah in the OP's link) and some on this board use (intentionally or not) this ambiguity to make fallacious No True Scotsman arguments. In other words, someone points out a ridiculous or objectionable stance of CRT and the response is "Well, but that's not REALLY CRT, that's just some crazy offshoot of it. I'm for the more reasonable (read "true," "pure") version." Rufo's tweets now make that easier because CRT advocates can point to them and say "look they are trying to cram non-CRT ideas under the 'branding' of CRT."

Third, if you'd like to read a history of the development of CRT and its relation to wokeness (which is maybe what we should call it on this board, but I thought some here thought that term was too loaded), social justice, antiracism, etc, I liked the book Cynical Theories by Pluckrose and Lindsay.

Or you can listen to them talk about a lot of their ideas on podcasts. Here's the most recent one I could find:


Note, Helen Pluckrose is left of center, not a far-right, outrage monger.
 

JamieDimonsBalls

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Not disagreeing with that. But if Blacks have more, and more expensive, debt after getting a degree then bringing down the cost of college goes a long way. It doesn't break the cycle of poverty and despair for the poorest sector, but it lifts a burden for a significant portion of Black Americans who are struggling to get ahead and accumulate wealth.

Why wouldn't they qualify through FAFSA though? Those are low-interest loans at the same rate regardless of circumstance.