Dividing the world into heroes and villains does us little good

[sglowrider]

Dividing the world into heroes and villains does us little good​

We need to be able to speak in nuanced terms, including about Russell Brand or Donald Trump

We need to be able to speak in honest and nuanced terms, even about those we view as the most pernicious and dangerous members of society. When we simply label them villains — particularly those who, like Brand and Trump, have large followings who already distrust the mainstream media — we are merely encouraging more division.

Peter Brian Barry, professor of philosophy at Saginaw Valley State University and author of The Fiction of Evil, tells me that our impulse to condemn is a kind of self-defence mechanism. “We tend to demonise people who we regard as morally unjust or vicious or corrupt because we really want to create distance between them and ourselves,” Barry says. “The more we can describe them in monstrous terms . . . the more confident we can be that we’re not like that.”

But hero worship, too, is dangerous: it suspends critical thinking, and can pave the way for charismatic demagogues and dictators. Witness Trump’s own fan base, who seem unwilling — or perhaps unable — to abandon him even while he gets indicted multiple times, whose unwavering belief in him led to the events of January 6 2021.

I have been saying this for a while now. In the political arena. when you break things down into just two sides, or are forced to just choose from a menu of two sides, it's just a basic form of manipulation.

Or with the Gen Zs who seem to think in terms of absolutes, cops are pigs etc which clearly they are only projecting the bad apples onto the whole profession. Everything is just a two-sided discussion/argument. Good v Bad.

Then you mix it with a society, or political/government system that is very reactionary/short-termism or knee-jerks (like the drastic de-criminalisation of the justice system) we are where we are today.

On an individual level, folks need to grow some self-awareness.

At a political level too where everything isn't so black & white -- and the current voting system, based on Duverger's Law will only maintain a two-party system -- which is fecked, extremely undemocratic -- never mind just manipulative and designed to maintain the status quo.

At a geo-political level, the 'good guys' versus 'bad guys' outlook on the world is just some child-like fantasist view of the world.

Everyone's got blood on their hands. There are no good guys and bad guys. Just folks looking at doing things for self-interest whether it's the situations in Ukraine, India/Modi, or with China. And pretending otherwise is just being a fantasist.

The use of the term 'national security' scares me -- a blanket term slapped on entities, groups of people etc when there is little proof or evidence. Good guys v bad guys

Reminds me of the domino theory slapped onto countries and wars and countless deaths. Good system versus bad system. Yet we are dealing with a 'communist' Vietnam now for example.

Folks need to wake up.

 

[Big Red Crimson Buffalo]

I know this:
Hamas is considered a villain.
Barbaric animals. That became crystal clear this week if it wasn’t already well known. I’d classify them as “bad guys.”

 

[IUCrazy2]

Dividing the world into heroes and villains does us little good​

We need to be able to speak in nuanced terms, including about Russell Brand or Donald Trump








I have been saying this for a while now. In the political arena. when you break things down into just two sides, or are forced to just choose from a menu of two sides, it's just a basic form of manipulation.

Or with the Gen Zs who seem to think in terms of absolutes, cops are pigs etc which clearly they are only projecting the bad apples onto the whole profession. Everything is just a two-sided discussion/argument. Good v Bad.

Then you mix it with a society, or political/government system that is very reactionary/short-termism or knee-jerks (like the drastic de-criminalisation of the justice system) we are where we are today.

On an individual level, folks need to grow some self-awareness.

At a political level too where everything isn't so black & white -- and the current voting system, based on Duverger's Law will only maintain a two-party system -- which is fecked, extremely undemocratic -- never mind just manipulative and designed to maintain the status quo.

At a geo-political level, the 'good guys' versus 'bad guys' outlook on the world is just some child-like fantasist view of the world.

Everyone's got blood on their hands. There are no good guys and bad guys. Just folks looking at doing things for self-interest whether it's the situations in Ukraine, India/Modi, or with China. And pretending otherwise is just being a fantasist.

The use of the term 'national security' scares me -- a blanket term slapped on entities, groups of people etc when there is little proof or evidence. Good guys v bad guys

Reminds me of the domino theory slapped onto countries and wars and countless deaths. Good system versus bad system. Yet we are dealing with a 'communist' Vietnam now for example.

Folks need to wake up.

Hamas, China, Russia, and Iran are "bad" guys. For all the warts of other places, none of us would want a world made in any of their images. Sometimes it is as simple as that.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Hamas, China, Russia, and Iran are "bad" guys. For all the warts of other places, none of us would want a world made in any of their images. Sometimes it is as simple as that.

Everyone is a bad guy in the middle east. It's just that some of them are our bad guys.

 

[twenty02]

Everyone is a bad guy in the middle east. It's just that some of them are our bad guys.

Jordan has managed pretty well.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Everyone is a bad guy in the middle east. It's just that some of them are our bad guys.

I don't view the Israelis as bad guys. Flawed like we are? Sure. Bad? No.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Jordan has managed pretty well.

They are another that is less bad but still an autocracy that wouldn't be up to "Western" standards with regards to certain rights.

There is a scale but you can draw a line on the scale and say that anything to this side would generally viewed as "bad" or an undesirable system and on the other side would be "good" or more desirable system. That isn't to say that those on the bad side don't ever do anything good or that those on the good side don't do bad, it is looking at general motivations and results.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I don't view the Israelis as bad guys. Flawed like we are? Sure. Bad? No.

They are an occupying force that is currently in the slow process of stealing land and displacing stateless people. They are not good guys. They have a unique history that earns them a pass from the West, but they aren't good.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Jordan has managed pretty well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are the only Arab state still operating under the original government set up after WW1, aren't they?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Hamas, China, Russia, and Iran are "bad" guys. For all the warts of other places, none of us would want a world made in any of their images. Sometimes it is as simple as that.

I won't disagree with Hamas. And Iran, it seems polls show anywhere from 41-81% want a new regime so it may well be a quantifiable bad guy.

As much as I disdain Russia, the Russian people seem quite happy with their country. In rural Russia, polling shows Putin with tremendous support. I suspect the same is true with China. In those cases, China and Russia might be liver and onions. I bet most of us don't like liver and onions, but I know some on here do. So I can't really effectively argue liver and onions are universally terrible even if they should be considered so.

Heck, there is at least one poster here who seems very enamored with how Russia looks.

So like liver and onions, I was raised to believe the US image (or western image) is the ideal. So of course I accept that. My dad loved liver and onions, the rest of the family hated them so I received a lot of training to go "bleh".

I used to believe the world would move to democratic beliefs if given the opportunity. I now am convinced Russia would answer your point by saying they are happy to be opposing a world made in our image, and same for China. I think Afghanistan voted not to follow America's image by not being able to fight for it after 20 years of training and billions in aid. When the time came, overall they put up no serious fight (a few did, but the vast majority sat home abstaining).

So your point really just confirms our bias toward what we have lived in and been conditioned to love most.

 

[IUCrazy2]

They are an occupying force that is currently in the slow process of stealing land and displacing stateless people. They are not good guys. They have a unique history that earns them a pass from the West, but they aren't good.

They left Gaza in 2005. They offered them a state on a few occasions since I was a teen. They don't have much of a choice in being an "occupier" because no one else wants those people and those people are unwilling to accept a state based on current reality.

 

[ribbont]

I won't disagree with Hamas. And Iran, it seems polls show anywhere from 41-81% want a new regime so it may well be a quantifiable bad guy.

As much as I disdain Russia, the Russian people seem quite happy with their country. In rural Russia, polling shows Putin with tremendous support. I suspect the same is true with China. In those cases, China and Russia might be liver and onions. I bet most of us don't like liver and onions, but I know some on here do. So I can't really effectively argue liver and onions are universally terrible even if they should be considered so.

Heck, there is at least one poster here who seems very enamored with how Russia looks.

So like liver and onions, I was raised to believe the US image (or western image) is the ideal. So of course I accept that. My dad loved liver and onions, the rest of the family hated them so I received a lot of training to go "bleh".

I used to believe the world would move to democratic beliefs if given the opportunity. I now am convinced Russia would answer your point by saying they are happy to be opposing a world made in our image, and same for China. I think Afghanistan voted not to follow America's image by not being able to fight for it after 20 years of training and billions in aid. When the time came, overall they put up no serious fight (a few did, but the vast majority sat home abstaining).

So your point really just confirms our bias toward what we have lived in and been conditioned to love most.

I am not an expert on foreign affairs but aren't the Chinese killing the Uygurs? And Russia attacked Ukraine with a leader that kills his political enemies? And Iran funds terror and kills people who speak out against the leadership?

I have not seen that done by the US nor Israel. But again, I am not an expert and may have missed it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

They left Gaza in 2005. They offered them a state on a few occasions since I was a teen. They don't have much of a choice in being an "occupier" because no one else wants those people and those people are unwilling to accept a state based on current reality.

They do have a choice, but it's one that's unacceptable to them. They could annex the West Bank and Gaza.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I won't disagree with Hamas. And Iran, it seems polls show anywhere from 41-81% want a new regime so it may well be a quantifiable bad guy.

As much as I disdain Russia, the Russian people seem quite happy with their country. In rural Russia, polling shows Putin with tremendous support. I suspect the same is true with China. In those cases, China and Russia might be liver and onions. I bet most of us don't like liver and onions, but I know some on here do. So I can't really effectively argue liver and onions are universally terrible even if they should be considered so.

Heck, there is at least one poster here who seems very enamored with how Russia looks.

So like liver and onions, I was raised to believe the US image (or western image) is the ideal. So of course I accept that. My dad loved liver and onions, the rest of the family hated them so I received a lot of training to go "bleh".

I used to believe the world would move to democratic beliefs if given the opportunity. I now am convinced Russia would answer your point by saying they are happy to be opposing a world made in our image, and same for China. I think Afghanistan voted not to follow America's image by not being able to fight for it after 20 years of training and billions in aid. When the time came, overall they put up no serious fight (a few did, but the vast majority sat home abstaining).

So your point really just confirms our bias toward what we have lived in and been conditioned to love most.

Drop all that. I am not one who believes in any form that systems of belief are neutral. People are generally people. They may choose to live with what they know because their system of beliefs makes it hard to conceive of anything different. However, while Iranians are people and run the gamut from good to bad, their current government and system is "bad" in comparison to what we would consider "Western" (which would include places like Japan which is why I use quotes).

If we accept the fact that people are people, then the differences in outcomes are attributable to 2 things: geography and cultural choices. Adopting a more Western approach is objectively better. The proof is all over the planet. Just because people don't choose it doesn't make that fact less so. Smoking is verifiably bad for you. People make less optimal choices all the time.

The Chinese system is bad in comparison to the West. Tribalism in Afghanistan is bad when compared to the West. Does that mean that everything about it is bad? No. There are things in each that might be worth borrowing. However, on the whole, pass. And you all know it.

I think one of the things that irritates me about the mindset of some of you guys across the political aisle from me is the absolute revulsion you have to defending the systems that have allowed us all that we have because of some need to morally equivocate. The Islamic world sucks. There is a reason that is the case. Russia sucks. There is a reason that is the case. Living in China sucks. There is a reason for that. You don't pick those areas to live in unless you are forced to or you feel a buck is there to be made by exploiting them. There is a reason people from those areas tend to run to Europe or the US the first chance they get whenever the suckitude of their lives reaches a tipping point. You leave bad situations to go to better ones.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I am not an expert on foreign affairs but aren't the Chinese killing the Uygurs? And Russia attacked Ukraine with a leader that kills his political enemies? And Iran funds terror and kills people who speak out against the leadership?

I have not seen that done by the US nor Israel. But again, I am not an expert and may have missed it.

I agree. Believe me, I am not defending either nation. But I am trained in western thought, the value of the individual. In Chinese eastern thought, the individual autonomy is less valued. The individual's efforts to improve the whole is more valued. Here:

Early Chinese forms of individualism, on the contrary, do not generally focus on the radical autonomy of the individual; but rather on the holistic integration of the individual with forces and authorities in his or her surroundings (family, society, and cosmos). For early Chinese thinkers, there is no such thing as unfettered autonomy or freedom of will. Rather, early Chinese thinkers posit the existence of a relative and relational sort of autonomy; or, a type of autonomy that grants individuals the freedom to make decisions for themselves, and to shape the course of their own lives to the fullest degree that they can—all from within an intricate system of interrelationships. This type of autonomy grants authority to the individual to fulfill his or her potentials as an integrated individual.​

​

Individualism in Classical Chinese Thought | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

iep.utm.edu

So my point is, I am western so I accept the autonomy of individuals. But that is a bias built in by being western. In China, or it appears Russia, serving the greater good is the individual's highest honor. So most Chinese would dispute that our system is better, and their persecution of the Uygers isn't persecution but an effort to get the Uygers to integrate into the greater collective. Think a bee hive as their ideal.

I freely admit, I prefer having individual autonomy. I am just saying that isn't a universal truth. Given the population of China, it is fair to say a huge number of humans prefer the bee hive.

 

[Bill4411]

I won't disagree with Hamas. And Iran, it seems polls show anywhere from 41-81% want a new regime so it may well be a quantifiable bad guy.

As much as I disdain Russia, the Russian people seem quite happy with their country. In rural Russia, polling shows Putin with tremendous support. I suspect the same is true with China. In those cases, China and Russia might be liver and onions. I bet most of us don't like liver and onions, but I know some on here do. So I can't really effectively argue liver and onions are universally terrible even if they should be considered so.

Heck, there is at least one poster here who seems very enamored with how Russia looks.

So like liver and onions, I was raised to believe the US image (or western image) is the ideal. So of course I accept that. My dad loved liver and onions, the rest of the family hated them so I received a lot of training to go "bleh".

I used to believe the world would move to democratic beliefs if given the opportunity. I now am convinced Russia would answer your point by saying they are happy to be opposing a world made in our image, and same for China. I think Afghanistan voted not to follow America's image by not being able to fight for it after 20 years of training and billions in aid. When the time came, overall they put up no serious fight (a few did, but the vast majority sat home abstaining).

So your point really just confirms our bias toward what we have lived in and been conditioned to love most.

The secret to their sauce there is no counter information to confuse the masses. We have highly partisan news sources which say in some cases almost the exact opposite of what the other one said and don't seem to be worried about the real truth of the matter.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I know this:
Hamas is considered a villain.
Barbaric animals. That became crystal clear this week if it wasn’t already well known. I’d classify them as “bad guys.”

Speaking of

 

[IUCrazy2]

Speaking of

View embedded media

And that's the West Bank. Those are the supposed moderates....

 

[mcmurtry66]

I am not an expert on foreign affairs but aren't the Chinese killing the Uygurs? And Russia attacked Ukraine with a leader that kills his political enemies? And Iran funds terror and kills people who speak out against the leadership?

I have not seen that done by the US nor Israel. But again, I am not an expert and may have missed it.

Chinese women are desperate for American men. They want to come here and be taken care of. Have a big bedroom full of hello kitty items. Lots of very attractive ones but you almost need F U money to get a good one

 

[Ohio Guy]

Reading through this thread, it seems like we're all on a sliding 'bad guy' scale, depending on which version of God is worshipped.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Reading through this thread, it seems like we're all on a sliding 'bad guy' scale, depending on which version of God is worshipped.

No, not letting you off that hook. Japan doesn't worship my God by and large and neither does South Korea. They are on the "good" side of the sliding scale because of how they act.

 

[Ohio Guy]

No, not letting you off that hook. Japan doesn't worship my God by and large and neither does South Korea. They are on the "good" side of the sliding scale because of how they act.

I'm not asking to be let off the hook. Yeah, maybe there are some occasional strange bedfellows, but by and large a lot of effin' people have fought and been killed over the 'my version of God is more awesome than your version.'

I'm not an atheist or an agnostic, by the way. I'm not advocating for pushing religion to the side. I'm mainly advocating for the human race to grow the eff up and stop perverting the central beliefs of all their religions.

 

[Bill4411]

No, not letting you off that hook. Japan doesn't worship my God by and large and neither does South Korea. They are on the "good" side of the sliding scale because of how they act.

How soon we forget.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

And that's the West Bank. Those are the supposed moderates....

Islamic societies have a different way of viewing the outside world.

Within their own society, there is order and generosity and calmness, as long as everyone stays within the rules and their roles.

People that go to Iran for an extended period of time find the Iranians to be very welcoming.

I don't think the people living in Gaza are, by and large, gangsters. They look to be nice and family-oriented as individuals.

The problems begin when Muslims have to interact with Jews, Christians, and Hindus or have to deal with a modern society. That's when the "best of peoples"/Jihadist mindset becomes an issue. Allah is a very jealous god.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Allah is a very jealous god.

Exodus 34:14

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Speaking of

View embedded media

According to @zeke4ahs that does not exist.

The sad part is the considerable moral and material support the ideas in that video receive from Americans. Even the White House and State Department had to withdraw their initial remarks about the atrocities because they were showed way too much deference to the Palestinians. And the American left-wingers who celebrate the great “victory “ of October 7 is disgusting.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

According to @zeke4ahs that does not exist.

The sad part is the considerable moral and material support the ideas in that video receive from Americans. Even the White House and State Department had to withdraw their initial remarks about the atrocities because they were showed way too much deference to the Palestinians. And the American left-wingers who celebrate the great “victory “ of October 7 is disgusting.

How about this video? These are crazy.

 

[IUCrazy2]

How soon we forget.

I haven't forgotten anything. You can move back and forth on that sliding scale.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

How about this video? These are crazy.

View embedded media

And we fund that crap.

 

[hoot1]

Dividing the world into heroes and villains does us little good​

We need to be able to speak in nuanced terms, including about Russell Brand or Donald Trump








I have been saying this for a while now. In the political arena. when you break things down into just two sides, or are forced to just choose from a menu of two sides, it's just a basic form of manipulation.

Or with the Gen Zs who seem to think in terms of absolutes, cops are pigs etc which clearly they are only projecting the bad apples onto the whole profession. Everything is just a two-sided discussion/argument. Good v Bad.

Then you mix it with a society, or political/government system that is very reactionary/short-termism or knee-jerks (like the drastic de-criminalisation of the justice system) we are where we are today.

On an individual level, folks need to grow some self-awareness.

At a political level too where everything isn't so black & white -- and the current voting system, based on Duverger's Law will only maintain a two-party system -- which is fecked, extremely undemocratic -- never mind just manipulative and designed to maintain the status quo.

At a geo-political level, the 'good guys' versus 'bad guys' outlook on the world is just some child-like fantasist view of the world.

Everyone's got blood on their hands. There are no good guys and bad guys. Just folks looking at doing things for self-interest whether it's the situations in Ukraine, India/Modi, or with China. And pretending otherwise is just being a fantasist.

The use of the term 'national security' scares me -- a blanket term slapped on entities, groups of people etc when there is little proof or evidence. Good guys v bad guys

Reminds me of the domino theory slapped onto countries and wars and countless deaths. Good system versus bad system. Yet we are dealing with a 'communist' Vietnam now for example.

Folks need to wake up.

Many of us like to simplify things about which we have little knowledge or interest.

My business partner who was a Mensa genius but not much interested in politics until Rush Limbaugh came into his life summed up his politics as follows, "Democrats like to give people a handout, and Republicans prefer to give them a handup".

 

[mushroomgod_1]

How about this video? These are crazy.

View embedded media

Yikes......I think they've gotten a raw deal, but I also think they would not be satisfied, in the long-term, with any arrangement Israel could realistically offer. There is a doctrine in Islam that any land once occupied by Muslims must ultimately be returned to Islam. Something for Spain to keep in mind.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Drop all that. I am not one who believes in any form that systems of belief are neutral. People are generally people. They may choose to live with what they know because their system of beliefs makes it hard to conceive of anything different. However, while Iranians are people and run the gamut from good to bad, their current government and system is "bad" in comparison to what we would consider "Western" (which would include places like Japan which is why I use quotes).

If we accept the fact that people are people, then the differences in outcomes are attributable to 2 things: geography and cultural choices. Adopting a more Western approach is objectively better. The proof is all over the planet. Just because people don't choose it doesn't make that fact less so. Smoking is verifiably bad for you. People make less optimal choices all the time.

The Chinese system is bad in comparison to the West. Tribalism in Afghanistan is bad when compared to the West. Does that mean that everything about it is bad? No. There are things in each that might be worth borrowing. However, on the whole, pass. And you all know it.

I think one of the things that irritates me about the mindset of some of you guys across the political aisle from me is the absolute revulsion you have to defending the systems that have allowed us all that we have because of some need to morally equivocate. The Islamic world sucks. There is a reason that is the case. Russia sucks. There is a reason that is the case. Living in China sucks. There is a reason for that. You don't pick those areas to live in unless you are forced to or you feel a buck is there to be made by exploiting them. There is a reason people from those areas tend to run to Europe or the US the first chance they get whenever the suckitude of their lives reaches a tipping point. You leave bad situations to go to better ones.

I pretty much agree, but I will say that China's mix of laissez-faire economic approach, massive govt assistance in key parts of the economy, and no political freedom has worked pretty well for them. People pretty easily give up political liberty/freedom of speech for economic security. I think many in the West would also make that trade. Fortunately, their former one-child dictate is going to screw them eventually.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

There is a doctrine in Islam that any land once occupied by Muslims must ultimately be returned to Islam.

Not for nothing, but that's not altogether different from the more religious versions of Zionism. Which may be yet another reason to be pessimistic about this whole thing.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Chinese women are desperate for American men. They want to come here and be taken care of. Have a big bedroom full of hello kitty items. Lots of very attractive ones but you almost need F U money to get a good one

Hello Kitty….lol. I know it’s true.

 

[zeke4ahs]

According to @zeke4ahs that does not exist.

The sad part is the considerable moral and material support the ideas in that video receive from Americans. Even the White House and State Department had to withdraw their initial remarks about the atrocities because they were showed way too much deference to the Palestinians. And the American left-wingers who celebrate the great “victory “ of October 7 is disgusting.

Now you’re just lying. You Said 90%, you said all, and now you’re lying about what I said.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Now you’re just lying. You Said 90%, you said all, and now you’re lying about what I said.

So Gaza has school choice? Never knew that.

 

[BradStevens]

Chinese women are desperate for American men. They want to come here and be taken care of. Have a big bedroom full of hello kitty items. Lots of very attractive ones but you almost need F U money to get a good one

So is there a number you call or do you just go hang out in the Hello Kitty store?

Asking for a friend.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

So Gaza has school choice? Never knew that.

That would solve all their problems, though...right?

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Hamas, China, Russia, and Iran are "bad" guys. For all the warts of other places, none of us would want a world made in any of their images. Sometimes it is as simple as that.

blacks, browns, gays, Jews, Muslims, straights, whites, Asians, etc, etc, makes it look like many different peoples in the world, but to me that's pretty much BS.

to me, there are basically 2 types of people in the world, nice guys and ass holes.

and blacks, whites, browns, gays, straights, Muslims, Asians, Jews, etc, etc, all pretty much have their nice guys and ass holes.

whole countries and races and religions are not either nice guys or ass holes, but all made up of both.

nice guys pretty much all get along regardless of race or religion or nationality.

ass holes only get along with other ass holes, and only so long as they have good guys to unite against.

once the ass hole group doesn't have nice guys to unite against, they will turn on each other in a second, well, because they are inherently ass holes and by nature don't play well with others, other than against a common enemy.

when ass holes achieve authoritarian rule over a country or group, that's when the rest of the world sees that country or group as bad, rather than a mix of nice guys and ass holes that is ruled by ass holes.

 

[zeke4ahs]

So Gaza has school choice? Never knew that.

I don’t even know what you’re talking about. You were wrong, and then you lied about it. And as usual, can’t admit it and change the subject.