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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
I like it. Our nation needs leadership. We don’t get it from 45. I’m not seeing that we’re going to get it from Biden. This is his golden chance to make a landmark impact.
Wisconsin
- Thread starter glmiu11
- Start date
Unlike Diaper Donny, Biden will most likely have a competent and talented staff. Leadership at that complex a level is about delegating to experts. If Biden hires and listens to experts and does nothing else, that alone is exponentially better than what we have.
1) if he or Harris delivers a big, beautiful speech and there is a riot that night, what does that do? As you note, at least some of the rioters are anarchists. Anarchists aren't going to listen to any political leader. Heck, if he goes and gives a speech doesn't it give incentive to right-wing groups to show ip and cause issues to damage Biden.
2) A large police presence is required if he shows up. Can the local infrastructure support it? If he is there speaking and a riot breaks out across town and the police are tied up at his location, who gets the blame?
3) If he shows up and Kenosha's COVID rates go way up in 10 days, what does that do for him
Now all that said, I actually agree to him giving something a try. I am just trying to point out this isn't the slam dunk. Especially a trip there carries a huge risk. Few people are nearly as capable as RFK was in that moment. RFK was a better orator than Biden (or Trump) and he had the adrenaline of the moment. I am not sure Biden can come close. And I don't think we can completely discount that anarchists just don't give a damn.
And I'm not sure Biden showing up and saying "NO MORE PROTESTS" will do him any good at all. Removing protesters leaves just the anarchists, but if Wisconsin and those other states go back to 2016 levels of Black vote none of this matters electorally.
I've been saying for awhile now that the only thing that will give Trump the election is continued rioting/looting. Nothing plays into his hands more than fear. Nothing drives fear more than riots/looting. (or a terrorist attack. same type of thing and same voters) If this continues until election day, we are forked imo.
You have asked more than once in this thread for folks not to jump to conclusions. I was explaining why people do so, even when the "facts" (evidence, really) aren't yet fully available. I hear ya, and that's my primary instinct too . . . but fafter a while, when enough instances of police violence are established with "facts" to be not justified or the justification is too petty, plus the profound deleterious effects of those instances on family and the larger community of the person harmed by the police violence, correlation takes over . . . and correlation becomes all that is needed for one to draw conclusions.
I think that's where we are with police killings, particularly with respect to police killing or maiming Black people. It's just happened too often, and the effects are too profound, to wait for the "facts" any more. Police need to reestablish - and in some instances establish for the first time - credibility regarding their justification of this violence by their ranks. Otherwise the correlation - police have killed or maimed another Black person - will control over whether the violence is justified . . . because there have been too many where the justification isn't sufficiently clear even once the "facts" are established.
When it all comes out in the wash, this violence against Black people result from police trying to impose control over or near to the person killed. Sometimes the control sought might be "justified" - as when police were trying to arrest Breonna Taylor's boyfriend for drug possession charges. But the net/net result for Breonna - an innocent bystander by all observations I can make - is that she's dead because the police tried to impose control where she was sleeping. The effect - loss of Taylor's life and the impact of that loss on her family - just ain't worth the control sought . . . .
I'm coming to the conclusion that the RoE regarding deadly force needs to be the imminent danger of being killed . . . and provable not based on a reasonable belief but rather on the basis of objective and dispassionate observation of the threat of immediate deadly harm to one's own person - a defense that must be proved by the police and it needs to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, because, after all, it results in what amounts to a death sentence. If a cop ain't in the line of fire, then they ought not be able to substitute their judgment for the cop who is . . . too many of these instances have become pretexts for casual shootings of people by an ancillary cop.
At the end of the day, I think cops want to be treated with respect that human beings deserve . . . and I think those who are the initial victims of crimes want to be treated as human beings (rather than as objects to be taken advantage of) by those who perpetrate crimes. In my view, a cop's primary job should be treating victims of crimes and suspects as human beings, and getting those who commit crimes to view their victims as human beings. In this way, those who commit crimes will by and large see the police themselves as human beings . . . and would be more likely to cooperate with well-reasoned and well-communicated requests from the police. If that's too much to ask . . . well, I don't know where we go from here, but the killing and maiming by police without patently clear justification has to stop. It just has to stop.
He's been pretty consistent in saying that he opposes violence and rioting, that he doesn't support "defunding the police", that he supports dialogue to bring people together as opposed to burning down businesses. You have likewise been pretty consistent in expressing fears that Biden is leading a leftist incursion against the American middle...which is pretty squarely where he's resided forever.
Sope the stats just don’t support the contention. What we see is that each occurrence is magnified bc of cameras social media and media.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
BC of cameras, social media, and the Narrative. People are being gaslighted and are gaslighting themselves. And it’s resulting in the death of our republic.
The very simple message for Biden and Harris is that they hear and feel the pain of African-Americans concerned about police violence against them, that they fully support and honor the very American tradition of peaceful protest to achieve political ends, and that they strongly oppose rioting and destruction of property, which is counter-productive to achieving those political ends.
And they need to go talk with protesters and police.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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I’ve stated in here a bajillion times that police need to get better. They need to be able to engage perps with their hands effectively if tasers fail. Shooting a guy in the back unless they know beyond a doubt that he’s going for a gun shouldn’t be a “good shoot”.
that being said, one has to subscribe to the “minorities are over policed because of racism” theory to believe that minorities are shot by police at a disproportionate rate. I don’t subscribe to that because it isn’t proven outside of editorial arguments. And police shootings of minorities actually trail the minority violent crime rates.
People are losing their lives and livelihood over misinformation. And Biden is doing nothing to stop that.
I'm with you. and i'm going to get torched for this but i've always held a childish view of republicans and democrats. i've always heard that dems want handouts and republicans believe in pulling themselves up by the bootstraps and doing for yourself. in truth the issue i've always had with too many republicans is that they view life as a hundred yard dash. that we're all equal and the one who trains the most will be the fastest and win the race. in truth some people get a fifty yard advantage. and others have a broken leg. i've spent so much time in poor, black communities and these folks have a broken leg. not only are they not advantaged they're hugely disadvantaged. so now they have an ear. and they need help. and we owe it to them. we as a nation. and instead of focusing on what we could do to truly elevate these communities we're dividing ourselves over excessive police force involving a handful of people and 800,000 cops and 100,000,000 yearly contacts. i feel like a huge opportunity is being pissed away - and in so doing "it's resulting in the death of our republic."
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Wait a minute. You're telling me a guy crossed state lines to commit a felony? Sounds like a federal crime that Trump failed to prevent.
All the protesters have to do is go home before dark. It's just smart. Too many outside agitators including white supremacist militias want to agitate and commit actions that will be blamed on protesters.
Come out in force during the day protest all you wish .. at night.. quit being cover for rioters, criminals, opportunists and Nazis. Makes the protest more relevant, allows police to contain rioting easier, and most importantly they wouldn't be giving camouflage to idiot white supremacist groups wanting to start a race war.
Good, we're in agreement here.
Can you prove that minorities aren't over policed? Seems to me that in a free state, a citizen ought not have to prove that a population is over policed . . . it ought to be incumbent on the government to establish that they're not over policing.
What would you have Biden do? He's a private citizen . . .
. . . the current administration's handling of the issues surrounding these incidents has been abysmal. And you're blaming Biden? Sheesh . . . .
That poor dumb naive child ... his world experience is about to get far far worse.
I don't understand why the mayors don't just set a curfew. Anyone at a certain location after a certain time is arrested. No questions asked. We can then quickly find out who is behind what.
They do. What needs to happen is someone needs to explain that to the protesters and get it through their seemingly thick heads. .
That they are being used by the same type of people they are protesting against. It happened in FW, a community leader explained exactly what I explained above. It's not common sense, which is neither, it's uncommon logic based deductive reasoning.
It didn't end everyone staying out past curfew, but limited the crowd sizes enough that anyone trying dumbf*ckery would he easily identified. The bigger the crowd the easier it is for those degenerates to hide.
Separate the message, ie protesting, from the opportunists, ie rioters, nazis, criminals. The easiest way to do that is to honor the curfew or go home when it's dark. What they are doing is just strategically idiotic.
Appreciate your thoughtful response. My thoughts on what you've offered (it's way long, so apologies and hope that you'll get around to considering it).
1) black lives matter AGREE - of course. Leaders should emphasize this, show how they are listening to the honestly expressed concerns, and express continued support for dialogue on this issue. There's one Presidential candidate who is doing that.
2) property destruction is bad and should not be tolerated AGREE - of course. Both Presidential candidates are expressing this in varying degrees of emphasis and honesty.
3) protests are a good and important part of the political process and should be protected AGREE - of course. Leaders should highlight this and do their best to separate protesters from rioters in their approach to the issue at hand. There's one Presidential candidate who is doing that.
4) police have a tough job (and their lives matter, too) AGREE - of course. I'm a big supporter of looking for ways to better train, reallocate responsibilities, and support police as an important part of the community (a community policing approach is a huge must as well). this seems like something that both Presidential candidates have addressed.
5) the militarization of police departments has not been productive DISAGREE - perhaps you’re not being clear enough. These unarmed deaths at hands of police are by non-militarized weapons. To try to be more clear - it seems like there is fairly broad agreement that programs that have given surplus military equipment to police departments and that have engendered a militaristic approach to population control have been ineffective. Maybe it's just my view from here, but the LAPD's very militarized approach to peaceful protests in response to George Floyd's murder and the militarized police response in clearing Lafayette Park so that the President could get a photo-op at a church have been roundly criticized as part of the problem. I don't really hear either Presidential candidate addressing this.
6) police are asked to do too much with insufficient resources MAYBE - I don’t know Again maybe JMHO, but much like the military, we ask the police to take care of every problem and then don't provide sufficient resources for them to have the skills to handle every problem. Again, I don't really hear either Presidential candidate addressing this.
7) there is a fundamental distrust between minority populations and the police AGREE - this is the fundamental issue. Minorities are today treated better by police than anytime in history. Yet conclusions are reached five minutes after an incident occurs without any evidence. While I understand your rationale for making it, that's a pretty bold claim to make for a guy who insists on data to back up claims. So, while I understand the calls for patience, I can also understand those who have run out of patience. And I think it's important to look at why both sides feel the way they do. You seem to indicate that the feeling is rational on one side and irrational on the other. If that's the case, I think that's unwise. What would help the situation is a leader who says "I hear your concerns and am committed to working with you towards a fundamental reality of equal treatment under the law." I get that general vibe from one candidate while the other candidate yells "law and order!" to any expression of concern.
8) most Americans are fundamentally decent people who just want to live their lives and help their family and friends. DISAGREE - based on people here
- kidding Haha. Do you really mean "kidding, not kidding"? 😂9) overpolicing has become a problem and minority populations feel the brunt of it Need more info - this is a major conclusion by you. Hear you, but I do think those are generalized feelings across large portions of the population based on what's come previously in this post. Which part do you have problems with?
10) the pandemic has exacerbated tensions as financial, emotional, mental, and political stress has put the nation on edge YUP Yeah...we would do better to give more grace to people who offer sincere expressions of concern about issues and engage honestly on those concerns. Concerns across the country are broad and sincerity is out of vogue. I need to do better at distinguishing between the gaslighting and the sincerity. I don't think there is any doubt about which candidate is sincere.
I've always explained the main difference between the party's is the dems tend to believe the best way to govern the people is directly with the people. In turn they would say that we should spend our tax base directly for the people while trying to even the field.
The pubs believe the best way to govern the people is through the institutions, particularly business institutions as they will in turn take care of the people.
It's the basis of most of the cynicism between the two. Corporate welfare vs personal welfare. The health care issue is a classic case of both ideologies. If you are dependent on the institution to give you health care than that gives leverage to the institution while leaving millions of Americans without basic health care who fall through the cracks. That's why dems want to take that burdon off the institution and give it directly to the people.
Anyway, looking at each situation through that lens has made most of the arguments logical from each other's point of view in my feeble mind.
Until Trump came along and brought an authoritarian POV.
snopes rundown of the verified appearance of the Kenosha shooter at a Trump rally, as well as social media pro-Trump and pre-militia posts
www.snopes.com
very fine people...
Did Kyle Rittenhouse Attend a Trump Rally?
The 17-year-old charged with first-degree intentional homicide after two protesters were killed in Kenosha, Wisconsin, posted on social media in support of Blue Lives Matter and President Trump.
www.snopes.com
very fine people...
snopes rundown of the verified appearance of the Kenosha shooter at a Trump rally, as well as social media pro-Trump and pre-militia posts
Did Kyle Rittenhouse Attend a Trump Rally?
The 17-year-old charged with first-degree intentional homicide after two protesters were killed in Kenosha, Wisconsin, posted on social media in support of Blue Lives Matter and President Trump.
very fine people...
So, is that the person and group who radicalized this naive child into ruining his and other lives by committing an atrocity. We call Imams who do the same terrorists.
You're not suggesting some might be employing a double standard regarding similar behaviors, are you?
Interestingly, 538 covered this very topic today. Short version is that so far, there doesn't appear to be a link between increasingly negative views of BLM and support for Biden.
fivethirtyeight.com
Could A Backlash Against Black Lives Matter Hurt Biden? The Two Don’t Appear Linked So Far.
In the wake of the police killing of George Floyd on May 25, the popularity of the Black Lives Matter movement skyrocketed. By early June, 53 percent of registe…
Opportunists manipulating the uneducated, and/or malcontent disgruntled masses for personal or political gain is at the core of almost every mass atrocity ever committed in man's history.You're not suggesting some might be employing a double standard regarding similar behaviors, are you?
Trump is evil and his words and actions promote evil.
Just because he looks like Jabba the Hutt and acts like Jar Jar Binks, instead of Emperor Palpatine or Vader doesn't change that. Evil doesn't always wear black, sometimes it's grossly incompetent and shows up wearing poorly applied orange facial makeup.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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100% agree. I’m not so dumb to think that even though I started in lower/middle class that it didn’t give me a huge advantage over many others. This is just not the hill that anybody should fighting on.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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You don’t want to see leadership from the guy that you’re determined to voted for? I guess that makes one of us.
I have yet to see proof that any community at large is over policed. I see minorities disproportionately being arrested for violent crimes but I don’t blame the police for that...do you? If so why? I also see white being shot by police at a rate higher than their committance (I made that word up and I like it) of violent crimes. I would hypothesize that’s because white people are more likely to have guns than black people are.
If this breakdown is accurate and there was another shooter, the kid isn’t getting convicted of murder. He will be granted self defense.
If this is all there is, then there is no evidence that this kid is racist.snopes rundown of the verified appearance of the Kenosha shooter at a Trump rally, as well as social media pro-Trump and pre-militia posts
Did Kyle Rittenhouse Attend a Trump Rally?
The 17-year-old charged with first-degree intentional homicide after two protesters were killed in Kenosha, Wisconsin, posted on social media in support of Blue Lives Matter and President Trump.
very fine people...
I just shared a thought about all this with mcmurtry in the NBA thread, but I could just have easily have posted it here.
Bucks boycott playoff game!
As it relates to “driving while black” etc. that’s a different story. If 10 white guys are driving high on drugs and 10 black guys are driving high on drugs, and you are a cop inclined to the "driving while black" interrogation, you will think that only blacks are driving high on drugs, and...
indiana.forums.rivals.com
Ive been saying this since the beginning. There was a great moment in LA where the curfew was coming up and the officer in command asked the crowd if they would peacefully disperse if he took a knee with them. Everyone obliged and it was a really great moment.
I'm thoroughly disappointed, Ranger, as you failed to address any of the points that I made to you.
Since we're bound for being stuck in a side eddy rather than making progress in the middle of the conversation, I'll leave it here with you.
At the micro level, did you read the report on St Charles, MO.
Then there is this ( https://www.apa.org/monitor/2016/12/cover-policing ) :
Other data show that black people are also more likely to be stopped by police. Stanford University social psychologist Jennifer Eberhardt, PhD, and colleagues analyzed data from the police department in Oakland, California, and found that while black residents make up 28 percent of the Oakland population, they accounted for 60 percent of police stops. What's more, black men were four times more likely than white men to be searched during a traffic stop, even though officers were no more likely to recover contraband when searching black suspects (Stanford SPARQ, 2016).
I think the opportunity is in getting over a big hump regarding how we, as people, treat each other and what's keeping us from taking advantage of that opportunity is how our police representatives interact with the public. If we can get that right, it will help give the rest of us a basis to reorder ourselves.
What is the st Charles report? That’s probably 95 percent white and where white flight from Stl moved. Very red. Very pro cops. You can definitely be pulled over there for driving while black there. I will add Marvin that i knew the former Saint Charles prosecutor very well. We played soccer for Busch together since we were kids. Those munis are a bit anomalous in that cops are urged to be super aggressive in writing tickets as the prosecutor’s value is determined in large part by how much money he brings in. Assessing fines is a massive revenue reqmt for cities like st Charles.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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The onus is not for me to prove that communities are policed fairly, counselor. The onus is on the accuser. I’d have thought you’d know that.
I was watching hurricane coverage from St Charles, LA and had it on the brain. I meant Ferguson. https://www.phys.org/news/2017-10-post-ferguson-area-over-policed-policing-quality
Lol got it. The worst part of Ferguson was the make up of the police dept compared to the community. Absurd.
Here is more on driving while black, analysis of 20 million stops. This is a reasonable sample size.
Falling for Russian propaganda, malcontent, a need to feel like they’re making the world a better place without actually doing anything, just to name a few...
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Here is an analysis of California stops showing Blacks are more likely to be stopped, they also are more likely to be handcuffed and have guns pointed at them even though they were less likely to have guns or drugs on them. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/02/california-police-black-stops-force
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