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What's the right news to print?

Rockfish1

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Ezra Klein recently wrote an interesting piece on the changes roiling newsrooms. His jumping off point was the revolt within the New York Times over the opinion section published a noxious piece by Tom Cotton arguing that the US military should be deployed against people protesting police brutality. (This led to the resignation of the Times' opinion editor.) There's much more in Klein's piece, but this stood out to me:

The news media likes to pretend that it simply holds up a mirror to America as it is. We don’t want to be seen as actors crafting the political debate, agents who make decisions that shape the boundaries of the national discourse. We are, of course. We always have been.

“When you think in terms of these three spheres — sphere of consensus, of legitimate debate, and of deviancy — a new way of describing the role for journalism emerges, which is: They police what goes in which sphere,” says Jay Rosen, who teaches journalism at NYU. “That’s an ideological action they never took responsibility for, never really admitted they did, never had a language for talking about.”

It’s interesting to imagine what would’ve happened if the Times had simply never solicited Cotton’s op-ed, or if he had submitted it and they had passed. The answer, quite clearly, is nothing. That would have been perfectly normal. It’s because the op-ed was reclassified as deviant after its publication, through a semi-public process, that it’s become such a flashpoint. It made visible a process that is often invisible, and it turns out that process is messy and contested.

Trump has sharpened the contradictions here. He and his allies operate in ways that are fundamentally opposed to the basic values that animate newsrooms. This has long caused newsrooms trouble — consider the endless effort to find euphemisms for the word “lying” when describing the president’s comments in headlines. With Cotton’s op-ed, the decision that ultimately got made pushed the views held by the president of the United States and most of his supporters into a sphere of deviance — or maybe a more modern term would be “deplorability.” That is not the kind of choice news outlets are comfortable making.
Sean Trende from Real Clear Politics had an interesting response to Klein's piece on Twitter:



Trende focuses on how editors decide what goes in which category: consensus, legitimate, and deviant. (This is important, because (1) views in the consensus category will be treated as obviously true; (2) views in the legitimate debate category will get a "both sides" treatment; and views in the deviant category will either be ignored or dissected like a lab specimen.) What I found most interesting about Trende's take was his focus on who is making the editorial decisions:








There's much more to what Trende had to say too, but this all sounded like much more intelligent media criticism than I normally hear.

 
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No matter what Cotton said, he's a sitting US Senator. His Op-Ed should be published. Then if people disagree, vote him out. That's the purpose of opinions and elections.

Looks like the NYT hasn't learned from the 2016 election and how far off they were in projects.
 
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I glazed over your documentation so I probably missed a few dozen points but...the rise of american cable media, in particular fox news is the equivalent of a rebel band of doctors blatently violating the hypocratic oath.

Is it illegal, no. Is it dangerous, very much so. Will it lead to it being strongly regulated? I would guess so.

Well it goes in circles, we're basically back to early 1900 New York City yellow journalism.

Not sure what ended it. Was it a collective organization to bide by a code of honor? Was it legislation?

Well for almost a century journalism enjoyed a very high reputation of honor. Was it perfect, hell no but it was a much more noble profession.

With the rise of Fox, it's gone back to using yellow journalism principles. Instead of separating out opinion VS 'news', fox combined them.

Instead of reporting they wanted to change and shape the narrative.

From Fox rose MSNBC to counter and then with the rise of cable and then internet the news is kind of a biased, echo chamber mess right now.

Not sure what's in store going forward. On one hand I think it's good to have so many different slants to the news VS just local and Walter Cronkite.

On the other its become a mess.

I was watching Fox and they used childish nicknames for every den and I just thought, can you imagine if Cronkite did that?

Say when Nixon resigned he opened the news saying 'well it was a great day in America as 'Tricky Dick' resigned proving that he's a complete fraud, an absolute sham and will soon add another humiliating adjective...a criminal'.
 
Quit reading as soon as you stated Cotton’s editorial was “against people protesting police brutality.“ Do better.
He would have undermined public confidence and trust in the military and wanted US troops to use violence against US citizens. A secondary byproduct was making those troops appear to choose sides and to do something they didn't sign on for. It would have only furthered division in our forces. His comments were extremely irresponsible to our military. And since he served, he knows better.

We are not a fascist or third world nation. Everything we extoll as being a virtue of this great country stands directly against his statements.

If you in any way approve of his comments during that crisis. You have no understanding of what was at stake socially politically or just letting your ignorant, unfounded and inflamed fear guide you into making stupid opinions.

We have a professional world class military and have since it was reformed after the Vietnam War and the Iran hostage fiasco. A part of that reforming was instilling a culture of professionalism that is not split politically, or racially.. If a military becomes politicized or split by racial divide, it undermines the public confidence and trust in them, and it also undermines their effectiveness. It kills.

He wrote that opinion as a racist dog whistle and fear viagra for the ignorant fear inclined to garner votes. It was bullshit, it was dangerous, it was irresponsible and it was downright fking fachist.

Have you listened to the Generals speak out? At all ..
 
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He would have undermined public confidence and trust in the military and wanted US troops to use violence against US citizens. A secondary byproduct was making those troops appear to choose sides and to do something they didn't sign on for. It would have only furthered division in our forces. His comments were extremely irresponsible to our military. And since he served, he knows better.

We are not a fascist or third world nation. Everything we extoll as being a virtue of this great country stands directly against his statements.

If you in any way approve of his comments during that crisis. You have no understanding of what was at stake socially politically or just letting your ignorant, unfounded and inflamed fear guide you into making stupid opinions.

We have a professional world class military and have since it was reformed after the Vietnam and the Iran Hostage fiasco. A part of that reforming was instilling a culture of professionalism that is not split politically, or racially.. If a military becomes politicized or split by racial divide, it undermines the public confidence and trust in them, and it also undermines their effectiveness. It kills.

He wrote that opinion as a racist dog whistle and fear viagra for the ignorant fear inclined to garner votes. It was bullshit, it was dangerous, it was irresponsible and it was downright fking fachist.

Have you listened to the Generals speak out? At all ..
“Undermined public confidence”. “Make the troops choose sides”. “We’re not a fascist country”. “Racist dog whistle”.

You hit all the buzzwords, I’ll give you that. LMAO

How “restoring order before 19 people are killed and billions of dollars of damage are done” equals fascism in your world has to be a pretzel twist of logic like the world has never seen.
 
“Undermined public confidence”. “Make the troops choose sides”. “We’re not a fascist country”.

You hit all the buzzwords, I’ll give you that. LMAO

How “restoring order before 19 people are killed and billions of dollars of damage are done” equals fascism in your world has to be a pretzel twist of logic like the world has never seen.
AggravatingWaryBernesemountaindog-max-1mb.gif


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How “restoring order before 19 people are killed and billions of dollars of damage are done” equals fascism in your world has to be a pretzel twist of logic like the world has never seen.

Would not have it been better to take the plight of blacks seriously all these years that they have complained about racism?
 
No matter what Cotton said, he's a sitting US Senator. His Op-Ed should be published. Then if people disagree, vote him out. That's the purpose of opinions and elections.

Looks like the NYT hasn't learned from the 2016 election and how far off they were in projects.
Nobody is entitled to space on the New York Times op-ed page. It’s a scarce resource, and the Times’ editors decide what appears. The question I’m presenting is how those editorial decisions should be made, and I linked to a liberal and a conservative take on that question.
 
He would have undermined public confidence and trust in the military and wanted US troops to use violence against US citizens. A secondary byproduct was making those troops appear to choose sides and to do something they didn't sign on for. It would have only furthered division in our forces. His comments were extremely irresponsible to our military. And since he served, he knows better.

We are not a fascist or third world nation. Everything we extoll as being a virtue of this great country stands directly against his statements.

If you in any way approve of his comments during that crisis. You have no understanding of what was at stake socially politically or just letting your ignorant, unfounded and inflamed fear guide you into making stupid opinions.

We have a professional world class military and have since it was reformed after the Vietnam and the Iran Hostage fiasco. A part of that reforming was instilling a culture of professionalism that is not split politically, or racially.. If a military becomes politicized or split by racial divide, it undermines the public confidence and trust in them, and it also undermines their effectiveness. It kills.

He wrote that opinion as a racist dog whistle and fear viagra for the ignorant fear inclined to garner votes. It was bullshit, it was dangerous, it was irresponsible and it was downright fking fachist.

Have you listened to the Generals speak out? At all ..
The snowflake point IUJIM made has nothing to do with my purpose, so engaging him in that respects a butthurt hijack, but it’s notable that military leadership squarely rejects Cotton’s noxious view.
 
I glazed over your documentation so I probably missed a few dozen points but...the rise of american cable media, in particular fox news is the equivalent of a rebel band of doctors blatently violating the hypocratic oath.

Is it illegal, no. Is it dangerous, very much so. Will it lead to it being strongly regulated? I would guess so.

Well it goes in circles, we're basically back to early 1900 New York City yellow journalism.

Not sure what ended it. Was it a collective organization to bide by a code of honor? Was it legislation?

Well for almost a century journalism enjoyed a very high reputation of honor. Was it perfect, hell no but it was a much more noble profession.

With the rise of Fox, it's gone back to using yellow journalism principles. Instead of separating out opinion VS 'news', fox combined them.

Instead of reporting they wanted to change and shape the narrative.

From Fox rose MSNBC to counter and then with the rise of cable and then internet the news is kind of a biased, echo chamber mess right now.

Not sure what's in store going forward. On one hand I think it's good to have so many different slants to the news VS just local and Walter Cronkite.

On the other its become a mess.

I was watching Fox and they used childish nicknames for every den and I just thought, can you imagine if Cronkite did that?

Say when Nixon resigned he opened the news saying 'well it was a great day in America as 'Tricky Dick' resigned proving that he's a complete fraud, an absolute sham and will soon add another humiliating adjective...a criminal'.
That’s okay, I threw a bunch of stuff out, and there was so much of it lots of people probably decided tl;dr. I should’ve tried to be more concise.

Having said so, Fox is extremely important in the bigger picture, but it doesn’t have anything to do with what I was trying to get at. Fox isn’t a legitimate news organization. It’s a propaganda outlet. The problem with Fox isn’t that it’s conservative. The problem with Fox is that its corporate purpose is to tell a very particular group of people what they want to hear. Indeed to tell them what they want to hear.

The issues Klein and Trende are addressing are how should legitimate news organizations make the correct editorial decisions, and how are those decisions being shaped by who’s making them and what their sense of their role is.
 
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The snowflake point IUJIM made has nothing to do with my purpose, so engaging him in that respects a butthurt hijack, but it’s notable that military leadership squarely rejects Cotton’s noxious view.
It's counterproductive to their goals and our safety Our military in Vietnam suffered from political, social and racial divide just like the country. It wasn't cohesive and it had no confidence or cause in its mission. After using US troops to quell protests, the general public became distrustful of military and the military felt they were hated by the public, which only increased the dysfunctionality and division within and without.

Cotton knows better. Plus, POC make up 40% of our military.

What he did was disgusting on a human level. And grossly irresponsible as a former officer.

.
 
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It's counterproductive to their goals and our safety Our military in Vietnam suffered from political, social and racial divide just like the country. It wasn't cohesive and it had no confidence or cause in its mission. After using US troops to quell protests, the general public became distrustful of military and the military felt they were hated by the public, which only increased the dysfunctionality and division within and without.

Cotton knows better. Plus, POC make up 40% of our military.

What he did was disgusting on a human level. And grossly irresponsible as a former officer.

.
Obviously I agree about Cotton’s op-ed piece, but more importantly, so does senior military leadership.
 
That’s okay, I threw a bunch of stuff out, and there was so much of it lots of people probably decided tl;dr. I should’ve tried to be more concise.

Having said so, Fox is extremely important in the bigger picture, but it doesn’t have anything to do with what I was trying to get at. Fox isn’t a legitimate news organization. It’s a propaganda outlet. The problem with Fox isn’t that it’s conservative. The problem with Fox is that its corporate purpose is to tell a very particular group of people what they want to hear. Indeed to tell them what they want to hear.

The issues Klein and Trende are addressing are how should legitimate news organizations make the correct editorial decisions, and how are those decisions being shaped by who’s making them and what their sense of their role is.
The problem with our news media is that they are profit-driven. Eyes and views and impressions and clicks are way more important than truth or education.

The bigger problem is I don't see how there is a solution to this. I mean, if Fox is propaganda, it pales in comparison to, say, DOJ press releases. I guess we all just promise to listen to NPR more?
 
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Obviously I agree about Cotton’s op-ed piece, but more importantly, so does senior military leadership.
fwiw - it's this same adherence to professionalism and code (ie an unquestionable chain of command) that the Generals don't speak out against him more vehemently or honestly. That they do criticise him, using the most benign form of criticism tells me they know exactly who and what he is.
 
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He would have undermined public confidence and trust in the military and wanted US troops to use violence against US citizens. A secondary byproduct was making those troops appear to choose sides and to do something they didn't sign on for. It would have only furthered division in our forces. His comments were extremely irresponsible to our military. And since he served, he knows better.

We are not a fascist or third world nation. Everything we extoll as being a virtue of this great country stands directly against his statements.

If you in any way approve of his comments during that crisis. You have no understanding of what was at stake socially politically or just letting your ignorant, unfounded and inflamed fear guide you into making stupid opinions.

We have a professional world class military and have since it was reformed after the Vietnam War and the Iran hostage fiasco. A part of that reforming was instilling a culture of professionalism that is not split politically, or racially.. If a military becomes politicized or split by racial divide, it undermines the public confidence and trust in them, and it also undermines their effectiveness. It kills.

He wrote that opinion as a racist dog whistle and fear viagra for the ignorant fear inclined to garner votes. It was bullshit, it was dangerous, it was irresponsible and it was downright fking fachist.

Have you listened to the Generals speak out? At all ..
You, just like Rockfish, Cortez, Maxcoke, and TommyCracker don’t even understand the point to be made. Cotton was not against protesters of police brutality. He was against the looters, burners, pillagers, stealers, clubbing ladies over the headers, hitting cops in the head with brickers, etc. Rock knows that, but he being his disingenuous self, makes it out for something else. He knows exactly what he did, and his post deserves called out for it.
 
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You, just like Rockfish, Cortez, Maxcoke, and TommyCracker don’t even understand the point to be made. Cotton was not against protesters of police brutality. He was against the looters, burners, pillagers, stealers, clubbing ladies over the headers, hitting cops in the head with brickers, etc. Rock knows that, but he being his disingenuous self, makes it out for something else. He knows exactly what he did, and his post deserves called out for it.
No, that's bullshit. Cotton painted all the protesters as vandals and looters and called for the military to crush them. In fact, vandals and looters are a tiny minority, and if cops were policing the tiny minority, that would be no problem. But instead they brutally policed the protests themselves. And sometimes they stood idly by while looters and vandals committed crimes.

Get your head out of your ass.
 
He would have undermined public confidence and trust in the military and wanted US troops to use violence against US citizens. A secondary byproduct was making those troops appear to choose sides and to do something they didn't sign on for. It would have only furthered division in our forces. His comments were extremely irresponsible to our military. And since he served, he knows better.

We are not a fascist or third world nation. Everything we extoll as being a virtue of this great country stands directly against his statements.

If you in any way approve of his comments during that crisis. You have no understanding of what was at stake socially politically or just letting your ignorant, unfounded and inflamed fear guide you into making stupid opinions.

We have a professional world class military and have since it was reformed after the Vietnam War and the Iran hostage fiasco. A part of that reforming was instilling a culture of professionalism that is not split politically, or racially.. If a military becomes politicized or split by racial divide, it undermines the public confidence and trust in them, and it also undermines their effectiveness. It kills.

He wrote that opinion as a racist dog whistle and fear viagra for the ignorant fear inclined to garner votes. It was bullshit, it was dangerous, it was irresponsible and it was downright fking fachist.

Have you listened to the Generals speak out? At all ..
Exactly how many Presidents have ordered the military against domestic issues in the last 100 years or so?
 
You, just like Rockfish, Cortez, Maxcoke, and TommyCracker don’t even understand the point to be made. Cotton was not against protesters of police brutality. He was against the looters, burners, pillagers, stealers, clubbing ladies over the headers, hitting cops in the head with brickers, etc. Rock knows that, but he being his disingenuous self, makes it out for something else. He knows exactly what he did, and his post deserves called out for it.
Cotton called for the United States military to be deployed in American cities as an "overwhelming show of force to disperse, detain and ultimately deter lawbreakers." If you want to play word games and say he was only calling for the goddamned armed forces to show their "overwhelming force" against the rioters, and not against the other trouble-makers, that's certainly your right, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to anyone with clear eyes.
 
You, just like Rockfish, Cortez, Maxcoke, and TommyCracker don’t even understand the point to be made. Cotton was not against protesters of police brutality. He was against the looters, burners, pillagers, stealers, clubbing ladies over the headers, hitting cops in the head with brickers, etc. Rock knows that, but he being his disingenuous self, makes it out for something else. He knows exactly what he did, and his post deserves called out for it.
Also, nitwit, I linked Cotton's piece, so anyone who cared could read it. Then I linked a liberal and a conservative who disagreed about it. Go f#ck yourself.
 
Cotton called for the United States military to be deployed in American cities as an "overwhelming show of force to disperse, detain and ultimately deter lawbreakers." If you want to play word games and say he was only calling for the goddamned armed forces to show their "overwhelming force" against the rioters, and not against the other trouble-makers, that's certainly your right, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to anyone with clear eyes.
He also called for "no quarter", which has a very particular meaning that Cotton absolutely knows.
 
No, that's bullshit. Cotton painted all the protesters as vandals and looters and called for the military to crush them. In fact, vandals and looters are a tiny minority, and if cops were policing the tiny minority, that would be no problem. But instead they brutally policed the protests themselves. And sometimes they stood idly by while looters and vandals committed crimes.

Get your head out of your ass.
Oh, now we have the “get your head out of your ass” posts from the infamous Rockfish. Is that the only way you think you get your way, by resorting to such low-level, sophomoric name calling. Seriously you act like a spoiled teenager sometimes. Show me one place in Cotton’s editorial we’re he demonized the peaceful protesters.
 
You, just like Rockfish, Cortez, Maxcoke, and TommyCracker don’t even understand the point to be made. Cotton was not against protesters of police brutality. He was against the looters, burners, pillagers, stealers, clubbing ladies over the headers, hitting cops in the head with brickers, etc. Rock knows that, but he being his disingenuous self, makes it out for something else. He knows exactly what he did, and his post deserves called out for it.

No you fail to understand what he did was wrong. Wrong as a human being, Wrong as a leader. Wrong as a former officer. It doesn't matter of it was rioters, or protesters. I doubt you could tell the difference, i bet they all look like antifa to you. The police showed no interest in that definition. Rioters, looters, protesters, children, old men, reporters.. .all treated the same and all being called antifa terrorists by Bunkerbaby while hiding in his safe space..

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law signed on June 18, 1878, by President Rutherford B. Hayes, the purpose of which continues to limit the powers of the federal government in the use of federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States. The Act was passed as an amendment to an army appropriation bill following the end of Reconstruction and was updated in 1956 and 1981.

He was calling for elite paramilitary to go into our cities with no quarter. Do you get what that means? This isn't Gaza, we're not Palestinians. Doesn't matter if it was Americans looting or Americans protesting.

He was posturing for his base and licking Trump's boots.
 
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Oh, now we have the “get your head out of your ass” posts from the infamous Rockfish. Is that the only way you think you get your way, by resorting to such low-level, sophomoric name calling. Seriously you act like a spoiled teenager sometimes. Show me one place in Cotton’s editorial we’re he demonized the peaceful protesters.
Once again, I linked Cotton's op-ed piece, so all could read it. He used a broad brush to label the protests as an "orgy of violence" when in fact they were mostly peaceful. He called for the US military to be deployed against the protesters even though only a small minority were vandals and looters. The police could easily have policed that, except they were instead policing the protests. And, of course, senior military leadership have repudiated Cotton's noxious view.

You tell me to do better, but you show me where you have ever contributed anything on this board. Go f#ck yourself.
 
Oh, now we have the “get your head out of your ass” posts from the infamous Rockfish. Is that the only way you think you get your way, by resorting to such low-level, sophomoric name calling. Seriously you act like a spoiled teenager sometimes. Show me one place in Cotton’s editorial we’re he demonized the peaceful protesters.
To be fair, Jim, in this thread, your head is firmly in your ass. "Do better" and remove it.
 
Also, nitwit, I linked Cotton's piece, so anyone who cared could read it. Then I linked a liberal and a conservative who disagreed about it. Go f#ck yourself.
I see too much bourbon for you tonight.

I have said nothing about the appropriateness of Cottons piece. If you disagree with it, fine. So be it. But when you say it was calling out those who stood up to police brutality, you are either outright lying, or just a dumbass. I’m pretty sure I know which, but maybe I am wrong.
 
I see too much bourbon for you tonight.

I have said nothing about the appropriateness of Cottons piece. If you disagree with it, fine. So be it. But when you say it was calling out those who stood up to police brutality, you are either outright lying, or just a dumbass. I’m pretty sure I know which, but maybe I am wrong.
You are wrong, but not why you think. Cotton was calling out all those people, and the fact that you can't see it (or won't?) doesn't speak well to you.

Right-minded Americans should be calling for Cotton's defeat in the next election at the very least. Probably expulsion and imprisonment is more appropriate.
 
No you fail to understand what he did was wrong. Wrong as a human being, Wrong as a leader. Wrong as a former officer. It doesn't matter of it was rioters, or protesters. I doubt you could tell the difference, i bet they all look like antifa to you. The police showed no interest in that definition. Rioters, looters, protesters, children, old men, reporters.. .all treated the same and all being called antifa by Bunkerbaby while hiding in his sage space..

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law signed on June 18, 1878, by President Rutherford B. Hayes, the purpose of which continues to limit the powers of the federal government in the use of federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States. The Act was passed as an amendment to an army appropriation bill following the end of Reconstruction and was updated in 1956 and 1981.

He was calling for elite paramilitary to go into our cities with no quarter. Do you get what that means? This isn't Gaza, we're not Palestinians. Doesn't matter if it was Americans looting or Americans protesting.

He was posturing for his base and licking Trump's boots.
Once again, how many other Presidents have actually called the military against its citizens. Is this something new to you?
 
You are wrong, but not why you think. Cotton was calling out all those people, and the fact that you can't see it (or won't?) doesn't speak well to you.

Right-minded Americans should be calling for Cotton's defeat in the next election at the very least. Probably expulsion and imprisonment is more appropriate.
Please show me in the article where?
 
I see too much bourbon for you tonight.

I have said nothing about the appropriateness of Cottons piece. If you disagree with it, fine. So be it. But when you say it was calling out those who stood up to police brutality, you are either outright lying, or just a dumbass. I’m pretty sure I know which, but maybe I am wrong.
It mystifies me that someone this stupid is a moderator.
 
Once again, how many other Presidents have actually called the military against its citizens. Is this something new to you?
Name them ..

Not National Guard.

Active duty paramilitary units.
 
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