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Trump's bizarrely consistent views

You'd best look a bit closer... That's the same MSNBC quote and the same article being repeated over and over... 🙄 Without providing some corroboration (which is what Real news sites do) simply repeating her quote as fact doesn't make it true...
I know that. And fair enough on the lack of corroboration thus far.
 
“Very fine people on both sides” is bullshit. You know it’s bullshit. Yet you repeat it here.

That makes you a liar. And liars are despicable.
I've always wondered this, when people defend Trump on this issue...

WHO were the very fine people on the other side? Is it the people who were upset because Racist,KKK funded statues were being removed?

Have you read any account of how those Charlottesville statues came to be, as a celebration of the KKK? When those statues were erected Black citizens of Charlottesville were not consulted about their opinion on building a statue honoring Lee, and IIRC Stonewall Jackson. Not only were Black citizens not allowed any input in the matter, but KKK mobs marched thru the streets intimidating Black citizens. Sort of how the Vanguard clowns marched thru the UVA campus and outside of a synagogue where a bunch of old folks were conducting Fri night services yelling "Jews will not replace us"...

So again who were these fine people defending these blatantly racist staues? At the very least they were extremely uneducated regarding the history of those statues. And unlike the original racists who erected those staues, their removal was a result of a LAWFUL vote by the city council, which unlike in the Jim Crow 20s actually included elected citizens (Black and White). So if you were there "protesting" you're either an idiot or a racist. The guy who organized the protest was a white Supermacist, even before he brought in out of town neo-Fascist/Nazi outside agitators...

So who were these "very fine people" that Trump claimed were on both sides? One group of mainly locals and students were supporting the law. And the other group of mainly outsiders invaded a peaceful town they had no connection to. And as a result were there protesting the decision (unanimous vote) by the representatives of Charlottesville Govt to remove racist staues... Because woke?
 
I've always wondered this, when people defend Trump on this issue...

WHO were the very fine people on the other side? Is it the people who were upset because Racist,KKK funded statues were being removed?

Have you read any account of how those Charlottesville statues came to be, as a celebration of the KKK? When those statues were erected Black citizens of Charlottesville were not consulted about their opinion on building a statue honoring Lee, and IIRC Stonewall Jackson. Not only were Black citizens not allowed any input in the matter, but KKK mobs marched thru the streets intimidating Black citizens. Sort of how the Vanguard clowns marched thru the UVA campus and outside of a synagogue where a bunch of old folks were conducting Fri night services yelling "Jews will not replace us"...

So again who were these fine people defending these blatantly racist staues? At the very least they were extremely uneducated regarding the history of those statues. And unlike the original racists who erected those staues, their removal was a result of a LAWFUL vote by the city council, which unlike in the Jim Crow 20s actually included elected citizens (Black and White). So if you were there "protesting" you're either an idiot or a racist. The guy who organized the protest was a white Supermacist, even before he brought in out of town neo-Fascist/Nazi outside agitators...

So who were these "very fine people" that Trump claimed were on both sides? One group of mainly locals and students were supporting the law. And the other group of mainly outsiders invaded a peaceful town they had no connection to. And as a result were there protesting the decision (unanimous vote) by the representatives of Charlottesville Govt to remove racist staues... Because woke?
You’re being intentionally obtuse. It’s been covered. Read the Snopes article.
 
Please don't @ me, with stupid shit ... I don't converse with lame witted slack jawed weirdos and will never consider a damn thing you post or say, nor will I argue or interact with you in any manner except for ridiculing you. . I get that you only use my moniker to garner your obvious need for attention from other slack jawed weirdos because you don't have enough self esteem, personality or social imprint to garner attention on your own merit but in reality only makes you appear weak.

Basically, quit swinging on my nutz Cletus. Go play with your other slack jawed imbecilic buddies..

TIA, now FO but have a nice day.
Triggered much, you living in moms basement, you well knot. I'm shocked you got past 4 letters of the alphabet.

Just shut up. Libs, dems, progressives, none of you and your ways are worth a sh!t and all end up in disaster. The ONLY reason I'm not posting lately is to stay away from this mentally deranged bunch of brainless twits that do not see and realize the absolute chaos they have created. Defending a mentally disabled group (lgtbq+++) that all deserve to be in a locked up doctors care rather than pushing some stupid, radical, left ideology that has No ethical, moral, platform to stand on while it spins uncontrollably downward. It's to the point they are taking kids from their parents and allowing a sex change due to a kids decision. Congratulations Idiots!

You've (Libs, dems, progressives) have created these black neighborhoods with uncontrollable murder rates due to your lying government created programs that have left people in inner cities trapped and dependent, rather than out earning a good living and contributing to society.

You've (Libs, dems, progressives) created these stupid progressive prosecutors allowing criminals to roam free due to your stupid ideology and criminal justice reform. It's madness and the numbers are in. How many innocent people have suffered and died from the results?

You've (Libs, dems, progressives) followed the UN agenda for climate control and back an illegitimate problem while sending billions to them while they continue a one world ideology that is doomed to fail. The green bulls!t while ignoring nuclear power, the electric cars and the failing grid, the pop control ideology, the list of UN atrocities never ends while they keep pushing lies for funding and we keep giving.

You've (Libs, dems, progressives) fallen for a media that you "think" makes a difference, but is corrupt down to it's core and all they do is push narratives that you follow and believe, its comical.

DEI and the border? Just another whacked situation that people with no forethought (Libs, dems, progressives) have brought upon us.

Great path you've sent us down. Now go back to your moms basement, and f*ck off while we watch your madness get worse and continue its downward spiral with a possibility of no return to normal. Libs, Dems and progressives are f*cking IDIOTS!
 
Triggered much, you living in moms basement, you well knot. I'm shocked you got past 4 letters of the alphabet.

Just shut up. Libs, dems, progressives, none of you and your ways are worth a sh!t and all end up in disaster. The ONLY reason I'm not posting lately is to stay away from this mentally deranged bunch of brainless twits that do not see and realize the absolute chaos they have created. Defending a mentally disabled group (lgtbq+++) that all deserve to be in a locked up doctors care rather than pushing some stupid, radical, left ideology that has No ethical, moral, platform to stand on while it spins uncontrollably downward. It's to the point they are taking kids from their parents and allowing a sex change due to a kids decision. Congratulations Idiots!

You've (Libs, dems, progressives) have created these black neighborhoods with uncontrollable murder rates due to your lying government created programs that have left people in inner cities trapped and dependent, rather than out earning a good living and contributing to society.

You've (Libs, dems, progressives) created these stupid progressive prosecutors allowing criminals to roam free due to your stupid ideology and criminal justice reform. It's madness and the numbers are in. How many innocent people have suffered and died from the results?

You've (Libs, dems, progressives) followed the UN agenda for climate control and back an illegitimate problem while sending billions to them while they continue a one world ideology that is doomed to fail. The green bulls!t while ignoring nuclear power, the electric cars and the failing grid, the pop control ideology, the list of UN atrocities never ends while they keep pushing lies for funding and we keep giving.

You've (Libs, dems, progressives) fallen for a media that you "think" makes a difference, but is corrupt down to it's core and all they do is push narratives that you follow and believe, its comical.

DEI and the border? Just another whacked situation that people with no forethought (Libs, dems, progressives) have brought upon us.

Great path you've sent us down. Now go back to your moms basement, and f*ck off while we watch your madness get worse and continue its downward spiral with a possibility of no return to normal. Libs, Dems and progressives are f*cking IDIOTS!
Don’t hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
 
Don’t hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
What's not true? You have a magic wand to fix all that? Thats reality, and whomever gets elected is stepping into the worst pile of dogs!t thats ever been left to a candidate to try and fix. LMAO Impossible.
 
I've always wondered this, when people defend Trump on this issue...

WHO were the very fine people on the other side? Is it the people who were upset because Racist,KKK funded statues were being removed?

Have you read any account of how those Charlottesville statues came to be, as a celebration of the KKK? When those statues were erected Black citizens of Charlottesville were not consulted about their opinion on building a statue honoring Lee, and IIRC Stonewall Jackson. Not only were Black citizens not allowed any input in the matter, but KKK mobs marched thru the streets intimidating Black citizens. Sort of how the Vanguard clowns marched thru the UVA campus and outside of a synagogue where a bunch of old folks were conducting Fri night services yelling "Jews will not replace us"...

So again who were these fine people defending these blatantly racist staues? At the very least they were extremely uneducated regarding the history of those statues. And unlike the original racists who erected those staues, their removal was a result of a LAWFUL vote by the city council, which unlike in the Jim Crow 20s actually included elected citizens (Black and White). So if you were there "protesting" you're either an idiot or a racist. The guy who organized the protest was a white Supermacist, even before he brought in out of town neo-Fascist/Nazi outside agitators...

So who were these "very fine people" that Trump claimed were on both sides? One group of mainly locals and students were supporting the law. And the other group of mainly outsiders invaded a peaceful town they had no connection to. And as a result were there protesting the decision (unanimous vote) by the representatives of Charlottesville Govt to remove racist staues... Because woke?
Ignorance is not an attribute of one’s character.
 
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Seems like a pretty weak effort by Snopes.

Who organized the Unite the Right rally?
Disagree. It's obvious if you read the transcript he wasn't praising neo-nazis, but was referring to people in the South who wanted to keep up a Robert E. Lee statue. All those people aren't racists or neo-nazis.
 
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Who organized the rally?
I don't know. I do know that the neo-nazis et al. didn't create the controversy; they came to it.

Here's one of the things Trump said in the same question/answer session that rarely was reported:

“And you had people — and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists — because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists.”
 
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I don't know. I do know that the neo-nazis et al. didn't create the controversy; they came to it.

Here's one of the things Trump said in the same question/answer session that rarely was reported:

“And you had people — and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists — because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists.”
I think there's ample reporting on who organized the rally. The reporting says the white supremacist groups did pretty much all of it. They were found liable in court after the fact for what they fomented. By many reports, they instigated violence against counter-protesters on day 1. Those facts (I've seen lots and lots confirming that and nothing that would even hint at rebutting it) can't be divorced from what Trump said. The whole thing was a white supremacist rally. That was its nature.

If so, the objection to Snopes and to Trump is that you shouldn't parse the words of Trump's singular utterance. The folks who disagree with Snopes and Trump would say there weren't very fine people because at a minimum all those there knowingly took up common cause with violent white supremacists.

Why would you say the neo-nazis didn't create the controversy?
 
I think there's ample reporting on who organized the rally. The reporting says the white supremacist groups did pretty much all of it. They were found liable in court after the fact for what they fomented. By many reports, they instigated violence against counter-protesters on day 1. Those facts (I've seen lots and lots confirming that and nothing that would even hint at rebutting it) can't be divorced from what Trump said. The whole thing was a white supremacist rally. That was its nature.

If so, the objection to Snopes and to Trump is that you shouldn't parse the words of Trump's singular utterance. The folks who disagree with Snopes and Trump would say there weren't very fine people because at a minimum all those there knowingly took up common cause with violent white supremacists.

Why would you say the neo-nazis didn't create the controversy?
Re your question: because people were already responding to and protesting the local govt decision to remove the Robert E. Lee statue. I'll give an analogy that may or may not hold: BLM didn't create the George Floyd controversy. But they organized rallies to protest it. I marched in a BLM organized event here in Chicago. Does that make me a BLM supporter? Does every characteristic of BLM now flow to me? Do all people who march in Free Palestine protests also now support Hamas or anti-semitism if we can trace the origins of the organization of those protests to anti-semites or Hamas-friendly organizations?

Re Trump's words: I try to read everyone's words/thoughts generously. I don't like the man, but it is a fact that he explicitly stated:

“And you had people — and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists — because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists.” What more could he have said to convince you?

Maybe he was wrong and those people didn't attend this rally, maybe he wasn't referring to the rally/march in particular but to "sides" to the debate over the statue (like you are doing now), or maybe he was not speaking very carefully (something he doesn't do and I think is a huge mark against any presidential candidate). But he never claimed that neo-nazis or white supremacists were "very fine people." That's just flatly untrue.

I comment on this issue because there are many ways to criticize Trump but making things up or unfairly quote mining him is counterproductive and, more importantly, unfair.
 
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Re your question: because people were already responding to and protesting the local govt decision to remove the Robert E. Lee statue.
I don't agree with the characterization focusing just on the removal of the Robert E. Lee Statue. That narrative would suggest it was merely some sort of concerned citizens arguing about municipal policy. That's not what was going on. The folks directly responsible for what transpired were organized and active before there was talk about statues. They actively and clearly and aggressively represented a white supremacist viewpoint and the statue was simply their latest outrage.

I'll give an analogy that may or may not hold: BLM didn't create the George Floyd controversy. But they organized rallies to protest it. I marched in a BLM organized event here in Chicago. Does that make me a BLM supporter? Does every characteristic of BLM now flow to me? Do all people who march in Free Palestine protests also now support Hamas or anti-semitism if we can trace the origins of the organization of those protests to anti-semites or Hamas-friendly organizations?

First, I don't think it's fair to compare BLM with the Unite the Right people. The mission and outlook of the Unite the Right group had no colorable basis whatsoever that could be considered reasonable, understandable or supportable.

Second, yes, in some scenarios your active involvement with a group absolutely does put you in their company. I don't think your involvement in a BLM event automatically makes you a BLM supporter. There was a broader and nuanced set of social questions getting considered and was changing and evolving over the course of 2020 and beyond. As much as people argue against BLM, at its core at some point was the implied notion that Black Lives Matter "too". If so and phrased as such, that's not hateful.

If someone is marching in a Free Palestine protest and arm in arm with a group that is, say, chanting death to Israel and applying well-known anti-Semitic tropes, then yeah, it may well be fair to say that that person is now aligned with the vilest of the bunch. Maybe definitely so if the march is actually organized around those most vile concepts.

You don't need to get out a detective kit and apply a complex clue-deciphering tool to understand what Charlottesville was about. Look at who organized it, drove it, populated it, what they said, what they advocate, what they did, what torches they carried, what means they used, what their aims were. Given what's been published, it would be awfully surprising if stragglers joined a Unite the Right rally and took up screaming and chanting while totally oblivious to what was going on.

Re Trump's words: I try to read everyone's words/thoughts generously. I don't like the man, but it is a fact that he explicitly stated:

“And you had people — and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists — because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists.” What more could he have said to convince you?
Yes, by that parsed view, he said he doesn't believe neo-Nazis are very fine people. What people are objecting to is the notion that it was some "neutral" event that some bad apples happened to attend. That's not what happened (in the description I'm sharing based on what I've read about the event). Trump's description and his equating the counter-protesters with the torch-bearing, vile chant-shouting crowd is what is drawing criticism.

Maybe he was wrong and those people didn't attend this rally, maybe he wasn't referring to the rally/march in particular but to "sides" to the debate over the statue (like you are doing now),
I don't follow this part fully ("like you are doing now"). I don't mean that I take offense to it; I mean I'm really not following.

or maybe he was not speaking very carefully (something he doesn't do and I think is a huge mark against any presidential candidate). But he never claimed that neo-nazis or white supremacists were "very fine people." That's just flatly untrue.
I agree he SAID he was not condoing neo-Nazis. The objection people are making is that the Unite the Right rally at its very core was wholly one of white supremacy and you can't distinguish good guys and bad guys among the group. It wasn't a statute march (according the point of view I'm arguing regardless of whether statues were the current rage justifier).

I comment on this issue because there are many ways to criticize Trump but making things up or unfairly quote mining him is counterproductive and, more importantly, unfair.
If the question is whether Trump overtly said that he thinks neo-Nazis are very fine people, I agree with you. But I don't think that's what the critics are saying. I think they are saying he glossed over a really bad thing and mischaracterized what was going on and what the full group represented.
 
I don't agree with the characterization focusing just on the removal of the Robert E. Lee Statue. That narrative would suggest it was merely some sort of concerned citizens arguing about municipal policy. That's not what was going on. The folks directly responsible for what transpired were organized and active before there was talk about statues. They actively and clearly and aggressively represented a white supremacist viewpoint and the statue was simply their latest outrage.



First, I don't think it's fair to compare BLM with the Unite the Right people. The mission and outlook of the Unite the Right group had no colorable basis whatsoever that could be considered reasonable, understandable or supportable.

Second, yes, in some scenarios your active involvement with a group absolutely does put you in their company. I don't think your involvement in a BLM event automatically makes you a BLM supporter. There was a broader and nuanced set of social questions getting considered and was changing and evolving over the course of 2020 and beyond. As much as people argue against BLM, at its core at some point was the implied notion that Black Lives Matter "too". If so and phrased as such, that's not hateful.

If someone is marching in a Free Palestine protest and arm in arm with a group that is, say, chanting death to Israel and applying well-known anti-Semitic tropes, then yeah, it may well be fair to say that that person is now aligned with the vilest of the bunch. Maybe definitely so if the march is actually organized around those most vile concepts.

You don't need to get out a detective kit and apply a complex clue-deciphering tool to understand what Charlottesville was about. Look at who organized it, drove it, populated it, what they said, what they advocate, what they did, what torches they carried, what means they used, what their aims were. Given what's been published, it would be awfully surprising if stragglers joined a Unite the Right rally and took up screaming and chanting while totally oblivious to what was going on.


Yes, by that parsed view, he said he doesn't believe neo-Nazis are very fine people. What people are objecting to is the notion that it was some "neutral" event that some bad apples happened to attend. That's not what happened (in the description I'm sharing based on what I've read about the event). Trump's description and his equating the counter-protesters with the torch-bearing, vile chant-shouting crowd is what is drawing criticism.


I don't follow this part fully ("like you are doing now"). I don't mean that I take offense to it; I mean I'm really not following.


I agree he SAID he was not condoing neo-Nazis. The objection people are making is that the Unite the Right rally at its very core was wholly one of white supremacy and you can't distinguish good guys and bad guys among the group. It wasn't a statute march (according the point of view I'm arguing regardless of whether statues were the current rage justifier).


If the question is whether Trump overtly said that he thinks neo-Nazis are very fine people, I agree with you. But I don't think that's what the critics are saying. I think they are saying he glossed over a really bad thing and mischaracterized what was going on and what the full group represented.
Some people might be doing the last thing you wrote, not most I've seen. Most who ran with this story--look at what Snopes was debunking, that is what we are discussing--promoted the idea that Trump literally said white supremacists and neo nazis were "very fine people." He said the opposite quite clearly. I don't think that's parsing at all. I think the other side is parsing, quote mining, and taking him out of context with what he actually said and meant.

As for the rally, I don't know who was there. I'm not sure if anyone does although it was clearly a vast majority of angry white dudes making asses out of themselves. I don't think Trump knew, and my guess is he assumed some normal southern heritage types were also there (by the way, I'd be perfectly fine with removing the statues as long as it was done democratically and not through mob violence; I consider Lee a rebel and have no affection for him whatsoever). I know lots of these southern heritage type people from my time in Texas--some are among my best friends, one is a liberal lesbian--they are not all racists (some are) or nazis (none are).

As for the controversy, it was already a very live, discussed, political controversy that that group seized upon for their own publicity. The Charlottesville statue and its removal had already been hotly debated for at least a full year before the rally and was part of politics for years before that. Trump was obviously politically concerned with defending southern conservatives who form part of his base:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...sville-robert-e-lee-melted-confederate-statue


Note, too, the date the statue was ultimately removed and melted down: 2021. Why? Because for 5 years the local southern heritage people who cared so much fought the city council then in court, paying lawyers (maybe or maybe the lawyers did it pro bono). This very much started--and ended--then, as a local, community issue:


You can--and should--point out where I'm wrong or if you feel I'm mis-characterizing you, personally (I'm truly not trying to but might have slipped up). But you take the last word, I don't want to write about this anymore--not because of you, but because I'm tired of it. I like reading your thoughts and testing mine against them to see where I agree and where I don't. It helps clarify my thinking and I hope I provide the same for you.

But so no one misunderstands me: I condemn white supremacists (in the traditional definition of that term) and neo-nazis. I don't like Robert E. Lee or Donald Trump, although they are not similar people or morally equivalent, and I don't give much of a damn about Southern heritage other than an academic one. I am, as my Texas friends used to say to me, a liberal Yankee through and through.
 
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