Trump ignoring the experts again

[glmiu11]

In some parts of Asia they were burning cash that had come from some of the most highly impacted areas for the infection, I believe that is what he/she is speaking about.

However, the biggest impact of the illness is to the elderly and those with other underlying conditions. Additionally, these figures are based on those who actually get sick enough to be tested. There are believed to be many who will mistake this for a severe cold or the flu and never get checked on.

So I am with you and Co...by all means we should be cautious, but some of this seems to be over-exaggerated hype that is unnecessarily scaring the crap out of people.

I am taking additional steps to be cautious, so I am not saying to ignore this by any means. But we also do not need to overinflate this virus into Captain Trips territory either.

I’m not arguing. That is great information.
But don’t other facts have a say in this. Cities are being shut down. World leaders are dying. Big tech is working from home. Lawyers are calling in to courts in some cases instead of going (by court order). Schools are closing. Stadiums are being turned into makeshift hospitals. I could go on. Sometimes what you’re seeing is real.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

In some parts of Asia they were burning cash that had come from some of the most highly impacted areas for the infection, I believe that is what he/she is speaking about.

However, the biggest impact of the illness is to the elderly and those with other underlying conditions. Additionally, these figures are based on those who actually get sick enough to be tested. There are believed to be many who will mistake this for a severe cold or the flu and never get checked on.

So I am with you and Co...by all means we should be cautious, but some of this seems to be over-exaggerated hype that is unnecessarily scaring the crap out of people.

I am taking additional steps to be cautious, so I am not saying to ignore this by any means. But we also do not need to overinflate this virus into Captain Trips territory either.

I can’t find any data on elderly with underlying conditions compared to those without such conditions. I think those statistics reflect such things like those who died in the Seattle area nursing home who by definition have various additional risk factors besides age.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I’m not arguing. That is great information.
But don’t other facts have a say in this. Cities are being shut down. World leaders are dying. Big tech is working from home. Lawyers are calling in to courts in some cases instead of going (by court order). Schools are closing. Stadiums are being turned into makeshift hospitals. I could go on. Sometimes what you’re seeing is real.

All of that is real and it is people reacting to the information they are receiving. I am fine with being cautious, just be informed as well. I would not be heading to a heavy tourist area right now to avoid the virus, that being said, I still believe this to be controllable for most of our population. If I was 60+, I would probably be even more cautious. The world is a scary place sometimes and raising children can make it even more scary, as a fellow parent, I am just reaching out to you with some factual info and some support, I really think that both you and I and our kids should come out of this ok.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I can’t find any data on elderly with underlying conditions compared to those without such conditions. I think those statistics reflect such things like those who died in the Seattle area nursing home who by definition have various additional risk factors besides age.

Yeah I have not seen that either. Access to a certain level of healthcare probably helps as well. Your survival chances in the west are probably better than for those in China.

 

[glmiu11]

All of that is real and it is people reacting to the information they are receiving. I am fine with being cautious, just be informed as well. I would not be heading to a heavy tourist area right now to avoid the virus, that being said, I still believe this to be controllable for most of our population. If I was 60+, I would probably be even more cautious. The world is a scary place sometimes and raising children can make it even more scary, as a fellow parent, I am just reaching out to you with some factual info and some support, I really think that both you and I and our kids should come out of this ok.

Can’t say enough about how much I appreciate you and our civil conversation.
We’re mostly in agreement, and it sounds like we’re both looking for as much information as possible.
I do believe it to be worse than we know.

 

[bawlmer]

I can’t find any data on elderly with underlying conditions compared to those without such conditions. I think those statistics reflect such things like those who died in the Seattle area nursing home who by definition have various additional risk factors besides age.

This link isn't data, but it's CDC info on the topic (through AARP). Here's a snippet of the reason older people are more at risk:

Older adults experience a gradual deterioration of their immune system, making it harder for their body to fight off diseases and infection. Many are also more likely to have underlying conditions that hinder the body’s ability to cope and recover from illness. People with health conditions like heart disease, lung disease and diabetes need to be especially careful to avoid exposure to COVID-19.
​

 

[CO. Hoosier]

This link isn't data, but it's CDC info on the topic (through AARP). Here's a snippet of the reason older people are more at risk:

Older adults experience a gradual deterioration of their immune system, making it harder for their body to fight off diseases and infection. Many are also more likely to have underlying conditions that hinder the body’s ability to cope and recover from illness. People with health conditions like heart disease, lung disease and diabetes need to be especially careful to avoid exposure to COVID-19.
​

Thanks for that. My PCP specializes in elder care and she says I’m in excellent health—for a person my age. Of course that kicker is the issue. For me, age is most noticeable with physical activity, like skiing at 10,000 feet. While I am generally aware of infectious disease being a bigger problem for seniors, I haven’t noticed head colds being any more severe or frequent than before. But they do seem to cause more fatigue. So I guess we’ll see.

 

[bawlmer]

Thanks for that. My PCP specializes in elder care and she says I’m in excellent health—for a person my age. Of course that kicker is the issue. For me, age is most noticeable with physical activity, like skiing at 10,000 feet. While I am generally aware of infectious disease being a bigger problem for seniors, I haven’t noticed head colds being any more severe or frequent than before. But they do seem to cause more fatigue. So I guess we’ll see.

My 22 year old son has asthma so that is a consideration for traveling, but it's not severe and he hasn't had any trouble with colds or the flu. For most of us, this threat seems to be incremental to other things going around.

My biggest fear is we start seeing nursing home populations devastated. I'm probably going to start raising hell at the one where my mom is (Grand Brook in Fishers) to greatly increase screening for visitors.

 

[Spartans9312]

This virus is not going away. It's not deadly enough to eliminate everyone it infects.
It's not going away in China or Singapore or the US or anywhere.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

My 22 year old son has asthma so that is a consideration for traveling, but it's not severe and he hasn't had any trouble with colds or the flu. For most of us, this threat seems to be incremental to other things going around.

My biggest fear is we start seeing nursing home populations devastated. I'm probably going to start raising hell at the one where my mom is (Grand Brook in Fishers) to greatly increase screening for visitors.

My sister is in a rehabilitation center after a possible stroke. We went to the women's B10 tourney so I am not going back over for a while. Of course with so many kids leaving for Spring Break at the end of week, they will be returning and possibly bringing it back. I fear she is going to have to be OK with phone calls from me for some time.

 

[bawlmer]

My sister is in a rehabilitation center after a possible stroke. We went to the women's B10 tourney so I am not going back over for a while. Of course with so many kids leaving for Spring Break at the end of week, they will be returning and possibly bringing it back. I fear she is going to have to be OK with phone calls from me for some time.

My son is a junior at West Virginia. Just checked and they have very little about the risks of traveling over spring break next week. Maybe I'll raise hell with them, too. People shouldn't stop their lives, but don't go visit grandma after you've spent a week partying with strangers.

 

[UncleMark]

People shouldn't stop their lives, but don't go visit grandma after you've spent a week partying with strangers.

So is the solution that us old farts need to avoid all the youngsters? Am I limited to Cracker Barrel and Bob Evans?

 

[bawlmer]

So is the solution that us old farts need to avoid all the youngsters? Am I limited to Cracker Barrel and Bob Evans?

Yes. Sorry.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

So is the solution that us old farts need to avoid all the youngsters? Am I limited to Cracker Barrel and Bob Evans?

Yes.

I think I am the only person in America who hates Cracker Barrel. Maybe in 6 months or so when I turn 60 it will be acquired.

 

[UncleMark]

Yes.

I think I am the only person in America who hates Cracker Barrel. Maybe in 6 months or so when I turn 60 it will be acquired.

I'm pretty sure they check IDs. Otherwise you have to be accompanied by someone on Medicare.

 

[bawlmer]

60 and 6 months here. I'm old for my age (I've liked Cracker Barrel for years), but young for my years (when I hear the elderly are susceptible to covid-19, I think of my mom). Then I see travel advisories for people my age. THAT SUCKS!~!!!

 

[iuwclurker]

So is the solution that us old farts need to avoid all the youngsters? Am I limited to Cracker Barrel and Bob Evans?

No, you can go to a Grateful Dead concert. Might be a few left in the audience.

 

[bawlmer]

This virus is not going away. It's not deadly enough to eliminate everyone it infects.
It's not going away in China or Singapore or the US or anywhere.

No itt isn't going away. But when the 2021 flu season rolls around, covid-19 will hopefully be in the vaccination mix. There are equally deadly viruses that we're exposed to already, but we can vaccinate people against them.

Our responsibility now is to do everything we can to limit exposure to unprotected people at the greatest risk from covid-19

 

[Spartans9312]

No itt isn't going away. But when the 2021 flu season rolls around, covid-19 will hopefully be in the vaccination mix. There are equally deadly viruses that we're exposed to already, but we can vaccinate people against them.

Our responsibility now is to do everything we can to limit exposure to unprotected people at the greatest risk from covid-19

Same as with influenza. And yes hopefully a vaccine will be in the mix before the fall of the year.

 

[UncleMark]

Same as with influenza. And yes hopefully a vaccine will be in the mix before the fall of the year.

You've been listening to Trump. This fall would be much much sooner than what all the actual knowledgeable people are saying.

 

[UncleMark]

LOL. Ted Cruz is self quarantining. Who says there's no silver lining?

 

[Spartans9312]

You've been listening to Trump. This fall would be much much sooner than what all the actual knowledgeable people are saying.

First of all, I said hopefully. Most likely your looking at sometime in 2021. It all depends on when they've been able to properly identify the virus. I think it's funny when people want to denigrate another. Especially when they have no knowledge of the subject

 

[meridian]

Same as with influenza. And yes hopefully a vaccine will be in the mix before the fall of the year.

Hopefully? The fall of the year? If I remember correctly, our president said that the vaccine would be available in a couple of weeks, and coronavirus is not deadly. Don't you trust our president? Shame on you!

 

[Bill4411]

I hope whatever Coronavirus vaccine we end up with is more effective than the annual flu one, which is usually hit and miss in effectiveness and more often than not it seems to be a miss.

 

[IUCrazy2]

So is the solution that us old farts need to avoid all the youngsters? Am I limited to Cracker Barrel and Bob Evans?

Yes...between the hours of 4 and 5 so you can take advantage of the specials.

 

[bawlmer]

I hope whatever Coronavirus vaccine we end up with is more effective than the annual flu one, which is usually hit and miss in effectiveness and more often than not it seems to be a miss.

Flu vaccination effectiveness per the CDC: link.

There are a helluva lot of viruses out there we're trying to prevent from the 'flu shot,' but I'd bet if there is an effective vaccine for covid-19 in time for the 2021 season it won't be hit and miss.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Flu vaccination effectiveness per the CDC: link.

There are a helluva lot of viruses out there we're trying to prevent from the 'flu shot,' but I'd bet if there is an effective vaccine for covid-19 in time for the 2021 season it won't be hit and miss.

Have they figured out that covid-19 has a “season”? I hadn’t heard that.

 

[Cream&Crimson]

Flu vaccination effectiveness per the CDC: link.

There are a helluva lot of viruses out there we're trying to prevent from the 'flu shot,' but I'd bet if there is an effective vaccine for covid-19 in time for the 2021 season it won't be hit and miss.

I'm saying this as someone not particularly educated on this subject, but I think the annual flu shot is a best guess on what they think is going to spread during the coming flu season. In contrast, for this coronavirus, I imagine they will develop a pretty specific shot for that specific virus that, hopefully, will have a better success rate.
Regardless, I think by the time they release a vaccine, it probably won't matter as most of us will have already been exposed.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I'm pretty sure they check IDs. Otherwise you have to be accompanied by someone on Medicare.

Stopped at one on the journey from Chicago to Bloomington with my father when I checked out IU. He may have only been in his upper 40s or early 50s, but he has been a grumpy, old man long enough to pass that test.

 

[bawlmer]

I'm saying this as someone not particularly educated on this subject, but I think the annual flu shot is a best guess on what they think is going to spread during the coming flu season. In contrast, for this coronavirus, I imagine they will develop a pretty specific shot for that specific virus that, hopefully, will have a better success rate.
Regardless, I think by the time they release a vaccine, it probably won't matter as most of us will have already been exposed.

Yes, it very well could be a separate vaccination. Especially in 2021, available ASAP.

 

[bawlmer]

Stopped at one on the journey from Chicago to Bloomington with my father when I checked out IU. He may have only been in his upper 40s or early 50s, but he has been a grumpy, old man long enough to pass that test.

Are we ever really too young for comfort food?

 

[TommyCracker]

I've got road trips planned this month and next. I probably will catch it and its highly likely I'll be in the 98%+ with full recovery--hopefully with mild symptoms. I haven't seen any meaningful statistics on severity of symptoms. I hope I don't need to cancel anything important while I have the crud. I am too old to be a paranoid alarmist.

This attitude is like being a swinger in the 80's that refuses to wear a condom.

Airline travel is the gateway to spreading to the world and all communities.

You're right, it's probably inevitable.

But why recklessly run to it for a casual road trip? Why not drive instead?

I'm watching the show 'The Outsider' and it's about a supernatural being that gets your DNA and copies it to become a 2nd you. So they figure out who it last scratched and they go to the guy and say 'stick with us because this other you is likely to kill someone' and the character is like GTFO and doesn't have an alibi.

Which is the point.

He's probably right and they are FOS, but what if they are right. All the character would have cost him was a week of hanging around the house.

But no, he gets blamed for a murder.

So my point again is why temp it when you can sacrifice a little and wait it out...or say f it and spread it faster.

That's being reckless.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

But why recklessly run to it for a casual road trip? Why not drive instead?

I am driving. That's what a road trip is.

 

[sglowrider]

My 22 year old son has asthma so that is a consideration for traveling, but it's not severe and he hasn't had any trouble with colds or the flu. For most of us, this threat seems to be incremental to other things going around.

My biggest fear is we start seeing nursing home populations devastated. I'm probably going to start raising hell at the one where my mom is (Grand Brook in Fishers) to greatly increase screening for visitors.

Problem is screening is almost superficial but certainly one of the tools. I have been screened at 33 degrees before.

The virus incubates for at least 14 days. You could screen a person who just got it, it wont show up at the screening station.

There lies the rub. What do you do with those 14+ days folks?

Like I said a zillion times now, the critical step is to track, map and isolate.

It's not difficult with the resources that the US has. This way you can pro-actively attack the spread rather than being reactive about it. If they don't do this, the epidemic will grow organically till the stage that its almost impossible to control the spread after a certain stage.

Also with the lack of a cohesive communication strategy, Americans need to hear more besides from rumours, forums or Jim Bakker. And it's not complex what it will do, can't do and what we need to do.

Everything I see is that it's just too damn reactive, it will cost more lives than it should.

There is absolutely nothing pro-active about what's happening or being done including the CDC. Maybe some states but viruses cross state lines with ease.

It's sad and shameful how badly managed it is. Plus the shocking inability to learn from others, probably due to arrogance.

This is getting into the realms of an own-goal situation.

The more delays the more draconian the solutions. China delayed reporting/implementation; Italy delayed implementations of the measures and now 1/4 of the country is in lockdown.

Italy had its 1st case only 5 weeks ago -- now it has a serious country lockdown and 7,375 cases and 366 deaths or a fatality rate of nearly 5%. They are an ageing country with a disproportionate number of elderly folks so that will skew the mortality rate, we hope. They just added another 1,500 cases yesterday -- and maybe 5% will die.

Much could have been done before this but wasn't.

 

[bawlmer]

Problem is screening is almost superficial but certainly one of the tools. I have been screened at 33 degrees before.

The virus incubates for at least 14 days. You could screen a person who just got it, it wont show up at the screening station.

There lies the rub. What do you do with those 14+ days folks?

Like I said a zillion times now, the critical step is to track, map and isolate.

It's not difficult with the resources that the US has. This way you can pro-actively attack the spread rather than being reactive about it. If they don't do this, the epidemic will grow organically till the stage that its almost impossible to control the spread after a certain stage.

Also with the lack of a cohesive communication strategy, Americans need to hear more besides from rumours, forums or Jim Bakker. And it's not complex what it will do, can't do and what we need to do.

Everything I see is that it's just too damn reactive, it will cost more lives than it should.

There is absolutely nothing pro-active about what's happening or being done including the CDC. Maybe some states but viruses cross state lines with ease.

It's sad and shameful how badly managed it is. Plus the shocking inability to learn from others, probably due to arrogance.

This is getting into the realms of an own-goal situation.

The more delays the more draconian the solutions. China delayed reporting/implementation; Italy delayed implementations of the measures and now 1/4 of the country is in lockdown.

Italy had its 1st case only 5 weeks ago -- now it has a serious country lockdown and 7,375 cases and 366 deaths or a fatality rate of nearly 5%. They are an ageing country with a disproportionate number of elderly folks so that will skew the mortality rate, we hope. They just added another 1,500 cases yesterday -- and maybe 5% will die.

Much could have been done before this but wasn't.

I have informed WVU that they need to communicate to their students to not have contact with vulnerable populations within 14 days after being in high-risk areas (spring break). We'll see if they do that much.

My daughter is an elementary school teacher in Virginia, where they are also on spring break next week. Absolutely no guidance to staff about potential for transmission risk from travel.

A month from now it will have spread exponentially here.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Problem is screening is almost superficial but certainly one of the tools. I have been screened at 33 degrees before.

The virus incubates for at least 14 days. You could screen a person who just got it, it wont show up at the screening station.

There lies the rub. What do you do with those 14+ days folks?

Like I said a zillion times now, the critical step is to track, map and isolate.

It's not difficult with the resources that the US has. This way you can pro-actively attack the spread rather than being reactive about it. If they don't do this, the epidemic will grow organically till the stage that its almost impossible to control the spread after a certain stage.

Also with the lack of a cohesive communication strategy, Americans need to hear more besides from rumours, forums or Jim Bakker. And it's not complex what it will do, can't do and what we need to do.

Everything I see is that it's just too damn reactive, it will cost more lives than it should.

There is absolutely nothing pro-active about what's happening or being done including the CDC. Maybe some states but viruses cross state lines with ease.

It's sad and shameful how badly managed it is. Plus the shocking inability to learn from others, probably due to arrogance.

This is getting into the realms of an own-goal situation.

The more delays the more draconian the solutions. China delayed reporting/implementation; Italy delayed implementations of the measures and now 1/4 of the country is in lockdown.

Italy had its 1st case only 5 weeks ago -- now it has a serious country lockdown and 7,375 cases and 366 deaths or a fatality rate of nearly 5%. They are an ageing country with a disproportionate number of elderly folks so that will skew the mortality rate, we hope. They just added another 1,500 cases yesterday -- and maybe 5% will die.

Much could have been done before this but wasn't.

Should we build temporary hospitals and quarantine facilities that collapse and kill the people they are supposed to be saving like the Chinese?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

If you did not pull your children out of school for flu season and avoid church for the same, you were statistically putting them in more danger than they face now from COVID 19.

I appreciate the conversation you two are having, but I just feel the need to nitpick this one tiny thing. We really don't have the information necessary to make this statement. Only after the outbreak runs its course will we really be able to quantify how much danger we are really in, and how much extra danger we are putting our loved ones in by taking/not taking certain precautions.

The flu is a known quantity. Each year, we know all the things we can do to minimize the spread and we already know exactly what to do to care for people who catch it. As a result, we can predict with fair accuracy how many people will develop serious illness from it, and how many of them might even die. And, most importantly, we have one thing available to all of us that we can do that doesn't require any disruption in our daily lives: a vaccination.

We have none of that with a new disease. No vaccination, and no idea how many people will catch it, and what proportion of them will develop serious illness. We're starting to get some data on those points, but we're still a long way from accurately judging just how dangerous this will end up being.

Even if it turns out Covid-19 is less dangerous than seasonal flu, the extra precautions might still be justified simply because of those unknowns. After all, it's probably better to overreact to the common cold than it is to underreact to the plague.

 

[sglowrider]

Should we build temporary hospitals and quarantine facilities that collapse and kill the people they are supposed to be saving like the Chinese?

Go read my previous posts instead of me repeating myself. I have said what needs to be done. Proactive versus reactive.

China and Italy are examples of what happens when you pussyfoot around. HK and S'pore are by far the gold standards for epidemic management.
But regardless of what you say about China, their draconian measures are working. Their case numbers are starting to only trickle in now. Double digits for a week now -- as opposed to thousands per day at one stage.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I appreciate the conversation you two are having, but I just feel the need to nitpick this one tiny thing. We really don't have the information necessary to make this statement. Only after the outbreak runs its course will we really be able to quantify how much danger we are really in, and how much extra danger we are putting our loved ones in by taking/not taking certain precautions.

The flu is a known quantity. Each year, we know all the things we can do to minimize the spread and we already know exactly what to do to care for people who catch it. As a result, we can predict with fair accuracy how many people will develop serious illness from it, and how many of them might even die. And, most importantly, we have one thing available to all of us that we can do that doesn't require any disruption in our daily lives: a vaccination.

We have none of that with a new disease. No vaccination, and no idea how many people will catch it, and what proportion of them will develop serious illness. We're starting to get some data on those points, but we're still a long way from accurately judging just how dangerous this will end up being.

Even if it turns out Covid-19 is less dangerous than seasonal flu, the extra precautions might still be justified simply because of those unknowns. After all, it's probably better to overreact to the common cold than it is to underreact to the plague.

Discretion is the better part of valor. I would not be charging head long into facing the virus without being cautious, but so far, this appears to be an illness that disproportionately impacts the old and those already sick.

 

[sglowrider]

I have informed WVU that they need to communicate to their students to not have contact with vulnerable populations within 14 days after being in high-risk areas (spring break). We'll see if they do that much.

My daughter is an elementary school teacher in Virginia, where they are also on spring break next week. Absolutely no guidance to staff about potential for transmission risk from travel.

A month from now it will have spread exponentially here.

You replace the word 'spring break' with 'Chinese New year' -- though the scales are will vastly different -- and you know why the virus cases ballooned up in China.

The giant spike happened around Chinese New Year, the largest travel period in the world where something 400million people travel to go home. Then it went national and eventually international.