Trump Insanity: The January Edition

[cosmickid]

He wants to be removed from the courtroom so he can claim he wasn’t allowed to defend himself. He only knows how to play the victim and it’s all his idiot supporters understand. A child in Iowa gets shot and killed and they need to get over it, yet he’s been bitching about the election ass-kicking he got for over three years. Victim victim victim.

His delusion was on full display at a speech he gave in NH last night. And it wasn't just him, his fellow crazies were out in force...

The speech had everything... He ranted about how Haley was responsible for Jan 6 because she refused his offer of National Guardsmen. It's not even true about Pelosi, but he repeatedly blamed Haley. Not just a slip of the tongue, but just like he often confuses who is POTUS and mistakes Obama for Biden. No one corrected him so he went on and on blaming Haley...

He also attacked Haley (the woman he PICKED to be UN Ambassador) as "too weak" to deal with those "fine people", Putin,Kim and Chi. Which if true (about her) begs the question of why did he APPOINT her? Which is a pretty blatant continuance of the incompetence he showed with all the very fine people he appointed (and fired, quit etc) over a single 4 yr term. Can't wait to see what roles people like Bannon or Haba would fill in this hypothetical Trump nightmare redoux...

Then you have Tim Scott characterizing the man facing 91 criminal charges as the "law and order President" the country needs. And JD Vance,looking really stupid in MAGA headgear, removing any doubt as to whether he just looks stupid by proclaiming that the # 1 issue facing America is what really happened on Jan 6. He literally said that resolving that (fake) issue should be job 1 for Trump...

We should start characterizing these MAGA gatherings as lunatics for Trump...

 

[ButHerEmails]

Well she did say she'd rather be pretty than smart because she can fake being smart. And she did say that Demons were behind the Trump indictments. And since she made those comments on a wacked out Christian Nationalist channel it's pretty safe to assume that she was speaking literally and not figuratively...

So she wins all around. She's pretty, but being a bitch kind of takes away from her beauty. And she's dumb as a box of rocks, so she got the positive atribute she said she preferred...

There's been some speculation that she wants to replace Melania, and even dresses and tries her best to copy her look. She needs to hook up with Sugar Daddy Donnie, because we're not even thru the first trial completely yet and she's already been sanctioned over a $$ Million for filing one of Trump's frivilous lawsuits. She'll likely end up disbarred before it's all over...

She’s right, you can’t fake being pretty but she can’t even fake being smart. Let’s be honest, she’s only around because she’s hot and Trump probably wants to f*** her. Trump has already enjoyed all the attention/publicity from his previous affairs, so why not another big public spectacle of an affair? It will likely endear him that much more to the MAGA idiots.
She’s dumb enough to get with Trump. She already screwed up Trump getting a jury because she forgot to check a box.

 

[bailey777]

His delusion was on full display at a speech he gave in NH last night. And it wasn't just him, his fellow crazies were out in force...

The speech had everything... He ranted about how Haley was responsible for Jan 6 because she refused his offer of National Guardsmen. It's not even true about Pelosi, but he repeatedly blamed Haley. Not just a slip of the tongue, but just like he often confuses who is POTUS and mistakes Obama for Biden. No one corrected him so he went on and on blaming Haley...

He also attacked Haley (the woman he PICKED to be UN Ambassador) as "too weak" to deal with those "fine people", Putin,Kim and Chi. Which if true (about her) begs the question of why did he APPOINT her? Which is a pretty blatant continuance of the incompetence he showed with all the very fine people he appointed (and fired, quit etc) over a single 4 yr term. Can't wait to see what roles people like Bannon or Haba would fill in this hypothetical Trump nightmare redoux...

Then you have Tim Scott characterizing the man facing 91 criminal charges as the "law and order President" the country needs. And JD Vance,looking really stupid in MAGA headgear, removing any doubt as to whether he just looks stupid by proclaiming that the # 1 issue facing America is what really happened on Jan 6. He literally said that resolving that (fake) issue should be job 1 for Trump...

We should start characterizing these MAGA gatherings as lunatics for Trump...

View embedded media

lol it is comical it bothers you so much.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

lol it is comical it bothers you so much.

If Biden had confused Pelosi and Haley there would be a thread on Biden being senile. The truth is they are practically the same age and neither should be in the White House without a tour guide. So the next time someone says Biden is mentally incompetent recall this and say, "yep, and so is Trump".

 

[Spartans9312]

His delusion was on full display at a speech he gave in NH last night. And it wasn't just him, his fellow crazies were out in force...

The speech had everything... He ranted about how Haley was responsible for Jan 6 because she refused his offer of National Guardsmen. It's not even true about Pelosi, but he repeatedly blamed Haley. Not just a slip of the tongue, but just like he often confuses who is POTUS and mistakes Obama for Biden. No one corrected him so he went on and on blaming Haley...

He also attacked Haley (the woman he PICKED to be UN Ambassador) as "too weak" to deal with those "fine people", Putin,Kim and Chi. Which if true (about her) begs the question of why did he APPOINT her? Which is a pretty blatant continuance of the incompetence he showed with all the very fine people he appointed (and fired, quit etc) over a single 4 yr term. Can't wait to see what roles people like Bannon or Haba would fill in this hypothetical Trump nightmare redoux...

Then you have Tim Scott characterizing the man facing 91 criminal charges as the "law and order President" the country needs. And JD Vance,looking really stupid in MAGA headgear, removing any doubt as to whether he just looks stupid by proclaiming that the # 1 issue facing America is what really happened on Jan 6. He literally said that resolving that (fake) issue should be job 1 for Trump...

We should start characterizing these MAGA gatherings as lunatics for Trump...

View embedded media

Trump appointed her….and later had buyers remorse. The list is long but includes Sessions, Barr, Milley, Kelly, Powell, Mattis, Tillerson, Esper, Chao.

Of those who did you think was terrible?

IMO….only Sessions.

Point being…going forward if you know that going to work for Trump carries a lot of downside professional risk and little upside, you end up with a lot of grifters

 

[outside shooter]

Trump's dementia is more dangerous even than Biden's, because it is mixed in with delusions of persecution and tons of batshit crazy conspiracy theories.

 

[UncleMark]

Of those who did you think was terrible?

IMO….only Sessions.

Credit to Sessions, he was the first to refuse to be Trump's lackey and take his oath seriously. The guy never a chance after that.

 

[cosmickid]

lol it is comical it bothers you so much.

Bothers me? I love it because the more it happens and is exposed, the more it insures Trump will lose...

Biden WANTS to run against Trump. He's beat him before and just like I've said repeatedly once people/voters start paying attention and Trump is not just MAGA/Fox News viewer background noise and people start listening to him again, the old anti-Trump coalition will come back together. And Trump bragging about destroying Roe will not help him with Independents and suburbanites...

There is a sense among Dems and Dem leading Independents that Trump would not be the GOP nominee. The Biden camapign saw it in focus groups where people were lukewarm in supporting Biden because they thought a reasonable alternative might end up running for the GOP. Now with the stark reality that Trump will be the nominee, some of those people who leaned towards Haley (new blood) will be confronted with the binary choice, and the more exposure they get to Trump the less likely they are going to be to support him...

People forget how back in the old days most people didn't even start paying attention to the election till well after the nominating conventions and Labor Day was viewed as the campaign kickoff. That's where the majority of voters who aren't politically active and don't hang out on social media (or even forums like this) still are. At this point, political campaigns see polling (particularly internal polling) as a snapshot that tells them where they need to focus their efforts. The fact that Biden prefers to run against Trump over anyone else is very telling...

 

[Bowlmania]

Bothers me? I love it because the more it happens and is exposed, the more it insures Trump will lose...

Biden WANTS to run against Trump. He's beat him before and just like I've said repeatedly once people/voters start paying attention and Trump is not just MAGA/Fox News viewer background noise and people start listening to him again, the old anti-Trump coalition will come back together. And Trump bragging about destroying Roe will not help him with Independents and suburbanites...

There is a sense among Dems and Dem leading Independents that Trump would not be the GOP nominee. The Biden camapign saw it in focus groups where people were lukewarm in supporting Biden because they thought a reasonable alternative might end up running for the GOP. Now with the stark reality that Trump will be the nominee, some of those people who leaned towards Haley (new blood) will be confronted with the binary choice, and the more exposure they get to Trump the less likely they are going to be to support him...

People forget how back in the old days most people didn't even start paying attention to the election till well after the nominating conventions and Labor Day was viewed as the campaign kickoff. That's where the majority of voters who aren't politically active and don't hang out on social media (or even forums like this) still are. At this point, political campaigns see polling (particularly internal polling) as a snapshot that tells them where they need to focus their efforts. The fact that Biden prefers to run against Trump over anyone else is very telling...

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Good points.

A couple of additional thoughts. First, people (not you) have to stop with the "I wish we had two other nominees instead of Trump and Biden." That ship has sailed. Get over it. It'll be those two barring a serious, acute illness or death.

Next (and as you've noted there's plenty of time for this), Biden's campaign team will need to bring things into sharper focus as the general election draws closer. Sure, Jan 6, Trump's unlawful attempt to remain in power and continuing threat to democracy should be part of the messaging. But if I were involved in strategy for his team, I'd be highlighting the administration's bipartisan endeavors which have exceeded expectations. Biden successfully negotiated deals with Republicans on infrastructure, scientific research (CHIPS and Science Act), domestic manufacturing, veterans benefits and modest gun control. (He's on the verge of striking a bipartisan deal with the Senate on the border and immigration, but Trump and MAGA forces in the House will likely kill it, despite the fact that it would be good for the country, in order to deny Biden a victory). I'd be stressing low unemployment, GDP growth, increased consumer spending and increased consumer sentiment which is no doubt largely a function of wage growth now outpacing inflation. Even though it's doubtful a president has much to do with it, I'd also talk about the dramatic reduction in crime (violent crime and property crime) in 2023. I'd be presenting a positive message in stark contrast to Trump's (and his followers') constant gloom and doom, "American Carnage" depiction of the country.

Is Biden a great president? Hardly. But I'd vote for him every day and twice on Sunday (not literally, of course - - that would be fraud!) over the UFO (unfit for office) candidate.

 

[Bowlmania]

Trump yesterday:

"But we have unbelievable technology. We shoot them down. I’ve seen so many things. I’ve seen shots that you wouldn’t even believe! Missile launched. They go, “Missile launched!”.

And you hear a bell go. I mean, I see this I li– it’s so incredible. And these guys, these geniuses, they go, these are not muscle guys here. They’re muscle guys up here. Right?

And they calmly walk to a seat. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

They’ve only got 17 seconds to figure this whole thing out, right. Boom!

Okay. Missile launch! Pshing! Poom!

And we don’t have it here! But we help other countries in having it. No, we’re going to have the greatest Iron Dome, let’s call it Iron Dome, anywhere in the wo–.

And it’s going to be manufactured a lot of it right here in New Hampshire, actually! Come to think of it."

Crazy Town.

Trump’s Attempt To Describe Missile Defense Has To Be Heard To Be Believed

The former president used sound effects and gestures as he acted out his “iron dome” plan.

www.yahoo.com

 

[outside shooter]

Trump is totally bats

 

[Bowlmania]

Trump is totally bats

Yeah, I mean talk about cognitive decline. Guy thinks Nikki Haley is Nancy Pelosi. He has said repeatedly that he beat Obama in a past election. Confuses Orban with Erdogan. Iowa with South Dakota. Thinks Hungary borders Russia. And now this nonsense about missiles, with sound effects like you might hear from a five year-old. And I don't know what this is all about but lately he appears to be sweating profusely at every public appearance - - even New Hampshire in January. He needs labs or something.

 

[IU_Hickory]

lol it is comical it bothers you so much.

almost as comical as people still supporting Trump..almost

Although I would say it is more sad than comical but I guess sometimes you just have to laugh at how blind some people are to being duped.

 

[IU_Hickory]

Trump yesterday:

"But we have unbelievable technology. We shoot them down. I’ve seen so many things. I’ve seen shots that you wouldn’t even believe! Missile launched. They go, “Missile launched!”.

And you hear a bell go. I mean, I see this I li– it’s so incredible. And these guys, these geniuses, they go, these are not muscle guys here. They’re muscle guys up here. Right?

And they calmly walk to a seat. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

They’ve only got 17 seconds to figure this whole thing out, right. Boom!

Okay. Missile launch! Pshing! Poom!

And we don’t have it here! But we help other countries in having it. No, we’re going to have the greatest Iron Dome, let’s call it Iron Dome, anywhere in the wo–.

And it’s going to be manufactured a lot of it right here in New Hampshire, actually! Come to think of it."

Crazy Town.

Trump’s Attempt To Describe Missile Defense Has To Be Heard To Be Believed

The former president used sound effects and gestures as he acted out his “iron dome” plan.

www.yahoo.com

 

[IU_Hickory]

Yeah, I mean talk about cognitive decline. Guy thinks Nikki Haley is Nancy Pelosi. He has said repeatedly that he beat Obama in a past election. Confuses Orban with Erdogan. Iowa with South Dakota. Thinks Hungary borders Russia. And now this nonsense about missiles, with sound effects like you might hear from a five year-old. And I don't know what this is all about but lately he appears to be sweating profusely at every public appearance - - even New Hampshire in January. He needs labs or something.

We are just lucky we controlled the airports in order to win the Revolutionary War.

 

[Bowlmania]

We are just lucky we controlled the airports in order to win the Revolutionary War.

Yes, and that World War II hasn't happened yet.

 

[larsIU]

I’ve seen so many things. I’ve seen shots that you wouldn’t even believe!

 

[Bowlmania]

Two things:

1. Trump wants the economy to crash this year.
2. He wants an open border.

The Economy

Yes, hard to believe (then again, maybe not because it's Trump) but he said a couple of weeks ago that he hopes the economy crashes before the election. That would, of course, benefit him politically, but it underscores his pathological narcissism and the fact that he doesn't give a shit about anyone else. A crash would cause people to lose their jobs, their homes and and inflict misery on millions of Americans. But again, this is Donald "Who Gives A Shit About You?" Trump.

The Border

Trump wasn't able to get an immigration and border deal done the first two years of his presidency when there was Republican control of both houses. Last week, the Senate was on the verge of an important and impactful bipartisan deal that would have helped secure the border. Lindsey Graham, though, made the mistake of saying publicly: "To those who think that if President Trump wins, which I hope he does, that we can get a better deal - - - you won't." Enter Trump, with orders to kill the deal. He doesn't want Biden to be able to notch a win on such a critical issue in the run-up to the November election. So let the problem continue. Let the fentanyl flow. Who cares about the country? Sure as hell not DJT.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Trump appointed her….and later had buyers remorse. The list is long but includes Sessions, Barr, Milley, Kelly, Powell, Mattis, Tillerson, Esper, Chao.

Of those who did you think was terrible?

IMO….only Sessions.

Point being…going forward if you know that going to work for Trump carries a lot of downside professional risk and little upside, you end up with a lot of grifters

She left on good terms with him. He praised her BIGLY at her farewell. It’s great she had a position that didn’t require groveling to Trump. He dislikes her now because she’s dared to run against him and criticize him. That’s what he does.

 

[mcmurtry66]

trump believes the economy will crash. He hopes it is this year not next. He doesn’t want it to crash. Good grief this board. Co-opted by media.

 

[Bowlmania]

More on the border . . .

Tillis, Young, Cramer, Graham, Romney and other Republican senators are apoplectic that this bipartisan border deal - - the best deal we're ever going to get, according to Graham - - may be killed by Trump. Trump, of course, is putting his own personal ambitions ahead of what's best for the country. Instead of resolving a crisis now, he wants it delayed for a year or more (another year or more of overburdened resources and another year or more of the fentanyl flow) so the sitting president can't take any credit. Again, Republican leadership says it's imperative to cut this deal NOW, and that there's no chance there would be a better deal in a Trump presidency.

"The American people are suffering as a result of what's happening at the border. And someone running for president ought to try and get the problem solved, as opposed to saying 'hey, save that problem. Don't solve it. Let me take credit for solving it later.'" - Romney

"I didn't come here to have the president as a boss or a candidate as a boss. I came here to pass good, solid policy. It is immoral for me to think you looked the other way because you think this is the linchpin for President Trump to win." - Tillis

Frankly, I think Trump killing this deal will ultimately damage him politically far more than any benefit Biden would derive from passage of the bill. I can already imagine the ads.

 

[IU_Hickory]

More on the border . . .

Tillis, Young, Cramer, Graham, Romney and other Republican senators are apoplectic that this bipartisan border deal - - the best deal we're ever going to get, according to Graham - - may be killed by Trump. Trump, of course, is putting his own personal ambitions ahead of what's best for the country. Instead of resolving a crisis now, he wants it delayed for a year or more (another year or more of overburdened resources and another year or more of the fentanyl flow) so the sitting president can't take any credit. Again, Republican leadership says it's imperative to cut this deal NOW, and that there's no chance there would be a better deal in a Trump presidency.

"The American people are suffering as a result of what's happening at the border. And someone running for president ought to try and get the problem solved, as opposed to saying 'hey, save that problem. Don't solve it. Let me take credit for solving it later.'" - Romney

"I didn't come here to have the president as a boss or a candidate as a boss. I came here to pass good, solid policy. It is immoral for me to think you looked the other way because you think this is the linchpin for President Trump to win." - Tillis

Frankly, I think Trump killing this deal will ultimately damage him politically far more than any benefit Biden would derive from passage of the bill. I can already imagine the ads.

I would have to hope this would move the needle on independents that may still be undecided. Trumpers won't care and anti-Trumpers already wouldn't vote for him.

It would be interesting to know how many republicans in the house are true believers and how many just go with it because they don't want to be RINOed next election.

The GOP has a very slim majority. It seems like a few would have enough sense to vote for it but maybe that's a pipe dream.

 

[Spartans9312]

I would have to hope this would move the needle on independents that may still be undecided. Trumpers won't care and anti-Trumpers already wouldn't vote for him.

It would be interesting to know how many republicans in the house are true believers and how many just go with it because they don't want to be RINOed next election.

The GOP has a very slim majority. It seems like a few would have enough sense to vote for it but maybe that's a pipe dream.

What parts of the bill do you like?

What parts of the bill do you not like?

 

[GigGoo]

More on the border . . .

Tillis, Young, Cramer, Graham, Romney and other Republican senators are apoplectic that this bipartisan border deal - - the best deal we're ever going to get, according to Graham - - may be killed by Trump. Trump, of course, is putting his own personal ambitions ahead of what's best for the country. Instead of resolving a crisis now, he wants it delayed for a year or more (another year or more of overburdened resources and another year or more of the fentanyl flow) so the sitting president can't take any credit. Again, Republican leadership says it's imperative to cut this deal NOW, and that there's no chance there would be a better deal in a Trump presidency.

"The American people are suffering as a result of what's happening at the border. And someone running for president ought to try and get the problem solved, as opposed to saying 'hey, save that problem. Don't solve it. Let me take credit for solving it later.'" - Romney

"I didn't come here to have the president as a boss or a candidate as a boss. I came here to pass good, solid policy. It is immoral for me to think you looked the other way because you think this is the linchpin for President Trump to win." - Tillis

Frankly, I think Trump killing this deal will ultimately damage him politically far more than any benefit Biden would derive from passage of the bill. I can already imagine the ads.

Have you read the bill? Or are you bloviating?

 

[IU_Hickory]

What parts of the bill do you like?

What parts of the bill do you not like?

I like that it is an example of how the sides could actually work together to get something done. Much more productive than making it political and tossing out lies to make the other side look bad.

• Toughens asylum protocols for migrants arriving at the border. Good that maybe it will prevent people from being in limbo while waiting on courts to make an office decision
• Bolsters border enforcement with more personnel and systems.
• Deters migrants from making journey in the first place

Other than tacking on aid for Ukraine, it seems like Conservatives get a lot of what they wanted on the border.

If conservatives in the House reject it, then they don't have much room to keep complaining about the border when they had the opportunity to address it.

What do you have against it? I'm guessing nothing more than Trump doesn't want it...yet

 

[mcmurtry66]

Have you read the bill? Or are you bloviating?

Lmao he found a friend in hickory. That speaks to what you are dealing with this guy. Trump obsessed dual airbags who can’t read from lies about crime bc they can’t read to the economy. Ranger and so many others have called him out. He’s hickory 2.0

 

[GigGoo]

Lmao he found a friend in hickory. That speaks to what you are dealing with this guy. Trump obsessed dual airbags who can’t read from lies about crime bc they can’t read to the economy. Ranger and so many others have called him out. He’s hickory 2.0

Bill is being negotiated in private, most Senators haven't even seen it. Yet they come here and tout how great of a compromise it is. The criticism seems to be that the bill doesn't do much to actually secure the border but rather provides more resources to process asylum claims more quickly. In other words, we can release them in to the country with their court date that they wont show up for more quickly.

The reason that much of Republican Senate leadership is on board is that it's being tied to Ukraine funding and they prioritize Ukraine funding over an actual border security package.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Bill is being negotiated in private, most Senators haven't even seen it. Yet they come here and tout how great of a compromise it is. The criticism seems to be that the bill doesn't do much to actually secure the border but rather provides more resources to process asylum claims more quickly. In other words, we can release them in to the country with their court date that they wont show up for more quickly.

The reason that much of Republican Senate leadership is on board is that it's being tied to Ukraine funding and they prioritize Ukraine funding over an actual border security package.

Right god forbid we just fix the border. Has to be tethered to Ukraine of course. We have 3 million court cases pending now 🤣🤣

 

[hookyIU1990]

We have 3 million court cases pending now 🤣🤣

That's a short week for an AI judge in a virtual court.

 

[mcmurtry66]

That's a short week for an AI judge in a virtual court.

were you the one hooky who said he's been using AI at work?

 

[Bowlmania]

Have you read the bill? Or are you bloviating?

No and neither have you because the text hasn't been released yet. I have, though, read Lankford's extensive commentary (including transcripts) and I have no reason to doubt the authenticity and accuracy of what he has laid out. No one in the Senate, to my knowledge, has disputed his characterizations.

 

[Bowlmania]

The reason that much of Republican Senate leadership is on board is that it's being tied to Ukraine funding and they prioritize Ukraine funding over an actual border security package.

No, that's the only reason why this effective border security bill can pass now, with bipartisan support. It doesn't mean Republicans prioritize Ukraine funding over the border. It's called "compromise."

 

[hookyIU1990]

were you the one hooky who said he's been using AI at work?

Yeah, but I think there were a few others on here using it too.

We've also begun integrating AI into search on some of our client's sites and all of our SW vendors have AI & ML front and center on their product roadmaps and marketing.

 

[Spartans9312]

I like that it is an example of how the sides could actually work together to get something done. Much more productive than making it political and tossing out lies to make the other side look bad.

• Toughens asylum protocols for migrants arriving at the border. Good that maybe it will prevent people from being in limbo while waiting on courts to make an office decision
• Bolsters border enforcement with more personnel and systems.
• Deters migrants from making journey in the first place

Other than tacking on aid for Ukraine, it seems like Conservatives get a lot of what they wanted on the border.

If conservatives in the House reject it, then they don't have much room to keep complaining about the border when they had the opportunity to address it.

What do you have against it? I'm guessing nothing more than Trump doesn't want it...yet

I haven’t read the bill. I also haven’t opined on it. You have talked about it for a bit. I was wondering what parts you liked. Thank you for listing some things.

Edit: Where are you seeing the text of the bill?

 

[IU_Hickory]

I haven’t read the bill. I also haven’t opined on it. You have talked about it for a bit. I was wondering what parts you liked. Thank you for listing some things.

Edit: Where are you seeing the text of the bill?

I have only seen summaries of the bill (don't think details have been released).

A deal on US border policy is closer than it seems. Here's how it is shaping up and what's at stake

Amid grueling negotiations between senators and the White House, the contours of a bipartisan border security and immigration deal are beginning to take shape.

apnews.com

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Right god forbid we just fix the border. Has to be tethered to Ukraine of course. We have 3 million court cases pending now 🤣🤣

Most conservative Republicans want to fix the border and support Ukraine. It’s only a growing number of Trumpster Republicans that don’t want to support Ukraine.

 

[GigGoo]

Most conservative Republicans want to fix the border and support Ukraine. It’s only a growing number of Trumpster Republicans that don’t want to support Ukraine.

That’s all real neat Aloha but there is no reason one should be contingent on the other.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Most conservative Republicans want to fix the border and support Ukraine. It’s only a growing number of Trumpster Republicans that don’t want to support Ukraine.

Why do they have to be connected. Makes zero sense

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

That’s all real neat Aloha but there is no reason one should be contingent on the other.

It’s what compromise is about.

 

[hookyIU1990]

That’s all real neat Aloha but there is no reason one should be contingent on the other.

So much superfluous garbage gets added and that's bad enough. To combine those 2 important issues is just disgusting. They should be debated and deliberated upon based on their own merits.