Pronoun chaos.

[mcmurtry66]

Why then do I find myself arguing the, again IMO, the dumbest shit with my right wing friends?

From Mr. Potato Head's nuts to pizza gate to miracle home remedies to Covid conspiracies like Fauchi actually created Covid to most recently if Biden has somebody muting him (it first was an internet thing than Fox news started playing into it and then it actually got brought up and laughed down by Blinken in a congressional hearing).

When I tune into Tucker it seems his whole show is 'if 'they' can do that then what will they do next? What's going to stop 'them' from doing this to you!!!????!!'.

It leads to hand wringing over the dumbest shit and it's so prevalent that it feels like it's 80% of the rights energy in the right wing media, social media and right wing leaders (again, a damn congressman asked our SOS who controls the Biden mute button. Jesus H Clownshow).

Why then do I find myself arguing the, again IMO, the dumbest shit with my right wing friends?

From Mr. Potato Head's nuts to pizza gate to miracle home remedies to Covid conspiracies like Fauchi actually created Covid to most recently if Biden has somebody muting him (it first was an internet thing than Fox news started playing into it and then it actually got brought up and laughed down by Blinken in a congressional hearing).

When I tune into Tucker it seems his whole show is 'if 'they' can do that then what will they do next? What's going to stop 'them' from doing this to you!!!????!!'.

It leads to hand wringing over the dumbest shit and it's so prevalent that it feels like it's 80% of the rights energy in the right wing media, social media and right wing leaders (again, a damn congressman asked our SOS who controls the Biden mute button. Jesus H Clownshow).

Again it's perspective. To the right it's why would the left bother with such silly shit. How privileged do you have to be to worry about such inane shit. Personally I couldn't care less. I'll call them anything they want. Doesn't hurt me. But I do believe it can be confusing and problematic in certain circumstances.

regardless i do think this stuff has a generational element. my kid doesn't say african american or black. she'll say you know who i mean. youve met her. she has darker skin. and i'll go YOU MEAN THE BLACK KID!. and she'll yes. she has darker skin.... old guys will die out and all of this will become a nonissue and blend and change more seamlessly

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Again it's perspective. To the right it's why would the left bother with such silly shit. How privileged do you have to be to worry about such inane shit. Personally I couldn't care less. I'll call them anything they want. Doesn't hurt me. But I do believe it can be confusing and problematic in certain circumstances.

It’s not outage at all. It’s annoyance at the stupid stuff the ultra sensitive left thinks up and pushes.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It’s not outage at all. It’s annoyance at the stupid stuff the ultra sensitive left thinks up and pushes.

for sure

 

[UncleMark]

I picked up a printed copy of the IDS the other day and noticed that they print the writer's pronoun preference in the byline. Oddly, that doesn't appear to be the case in the online version.

[Note: I originally wrote "his/her byline" then changed it. See, it is easy to compose around the pronoun concerns in most cases.]

 

[bawlmer]

regardless i do think this stuff has a generational element. my kid doesn't say african american or black. she'll say you know who i mean. youve met her. she has darker skin. and i'll go YOU MEAN THE BLACK KID!. and she'll yes. she has darker skin.... old guys will die out and all of this will become a nonissue and blend and change more seamlessly

True, even my pretty right-wing 23 year old son tells me some of the terms I use because I grew up with them are racist.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Again it's perspective. To the right it's why would the left bother with such silly shit. How privileged do you have to be to worry about such inane shit. Personally I couldn't care less. I'll call them anything they want. Doesn't hurt me. But I do believe it can be confusing and problematic in certain circumstances.

regardless i do think this stuff has a generational element. my kid doesn't say african american or black. she'll say you know who i mean. youve met her. she has darker skin. and i'll go YOU MEAN THE BLACK KID!. and she'll yes. she has darker skin.... old guys will die out and all of this will become a nonissue and blend and change more seamlessly

Eventually, we'll all be comingled to the point that race will be meaningless. Well, the human race...

 

[UncleMark]

True, even my pretty right-wing 23 year old son tells me some of the terms I use because I grew up with them are racist.

I sometimes think people confuse racial with racist. Of course, they may believe that using racial terms is racist.

 

[TommyCracker]

Again it's perspective. To the right it's why would the left bother with such silly shit. How privileged do you have to be to worry about such inane shit. Personally I couldn't care less. I'll call them anything they want. Doesn't hurt me. But I do believe it can be confusing and problematic in certain circumstances.

regardless i do think this stuff has a generational element. my kid doesn't say african american or black. she'll say you know who i mean. youve met her. she has darker skin. and i'll go YOU MEAN THE BLACK KID!. and she'll yes. she has darker skin.... old guys will die out and all of this will become a nonissue and blend and change more seamlessly

For sure, there's a videotape of me playing hoops with my buddies in high school that absolutely guarantees that I will never be able to run for public office in today's climate (and probably not then either. If I had grandchildren I'm guessing they would be deeply offended) which is your point.

Society churns towards inclusion most of the time, which I think is a good thing. Sure my left wing progressives can get a little too passionate about it IMO, but at the end of the day it's trying to provide a safer and more inclusive environment.

Still, that's super small potatoes to the issues of the day.

Take Mr. Potato Head's nuts. I think it's dumb on either side but whatever I don't really give a shit. However the energy used as some kind of apocalyptic sign from right wing media....well that's the basis of my current rant especially as it keeps getting brought up (like Biden's mutegate).

Fact checking or disproving false conspiracies takes up a ton of energy to the point that it's exhausting.

Lately from my pov it keeps being generated from the right, which means it's on purpose.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

I sometimes think people confuse racial with racist. Of course, they may believe that using racial terms is racist.

I think this has legs! If I'm trying to describe someone as part of a conversation to make the person I'm speaking with know who I am speaking about, I will say "you know, that tall black lady that works in marketing". Using "Tall" narrows the field just like using "black" narrows the field. It's not racist, it just an accurate descriptor to point to the subject of the conversation.
Although today, we are taught that I am a grand wizard for using the name... arggh.

 

[bawlmer]

I sometimes think people confuse racial with racist. Of course, they may believe that using racial terms is racist.

The terms were Negro and Oriental.

I'm not out on the street calling strangers Negroes (jeez, spell-check won't even allow it). But I never thought it was derogatory. MLK used it frequently.

I never thought of Oriental as anything but old- fashioned. But, he's not exactly woke. He's upset about the Washington Football Team changing its name.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Not even close to being accurate

I was taught in grammar school if a sentence sounds funny it is probably wrong. “They is wrong” sounds funny.

"They is" is wrong.

 

[bawlmer]

I think this has legs! If I'm trying to describe someone as part of a conversation to make the person I'm speaking with know who I am speaking about, I will say "you know, that tall black lady that works in marketing". Using "Tall" narrows the field just like using "black" narrows the field. It's not racist, it just an accurate descriptor to point to the subject of the conversation.
Although today, we are taught that I am a grand wizard for using the name... arggh.

It's not so simple as using Black as an adjective. If that's always the first adjective that comes to mind, it might be time to consider why.

 

[UncleMark]

The terms were Negro and Oriental.

How old are you, like 98 or something?

I'm not out on the street calling strangers Negroes (jeez, spell-check won't even allow it). But I never thought it was derogatory. MLK used it frequently.

I don't know that I've ever used the term Negro instead of black, except in cases where I might be speaking in a certain "voice" for effect. I know when I was very very young, "colored" was common and considered acceptable in polite society... but that polite society didn't include any Negroes where I came from.

I never thought of Oriental as anything but old- fashioned. But, he's not exactly woke. He's upset about the Washington Football Team changing its name.

I came to learn about "Oriental" later, but I haven't even thought of using the word since the 70s. Asians was a more descriptive term for me anyway. (My dad was a Korea vet, and while not commonplace, the terms Gooks, Chinks, and Japs weren't verboten.)

Washington should just keep the name they're using now. They can then brand themselves any way they want without being tied to a specific theme or iconography.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Take Mr. Potato Head's nuts.

Are they any relation to Jamie Dimon's balls?

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Although today, we are taught that I am a grand wizard for using the name... arggh.

Bullshit.

 

[bawlmer]

How old are you, like 98 or something?

I don't know that I've ever used the term Negro instead of black, except in cases where I might be speaking in a certain "voice" for effect. I know when I was very very young, "colored" was common and considered acceptable in polite society... but that polite society didn't include any Negroes where I came from.

I came to learn about "Oriental" later, but I haven't even thought of using the word since the 70s. Asians was a more descriptive term for me anyway. (My dad was a Korea vet, and while not commonplace, the terms Gooks, Chinks, and Japs weren't verboten.)

Washington should just keep the name they're using now. They can then brand themselves any way they want without being tied to a specific theme or iconography.

LOL! 62. I never liked the term Black, though I understood it, because it emphasized differences. I guess that was the point. It's becoming less useful as more people are mixed-race.

Luckily in my immediate family derogatory terms were verboten.

 

[UncleMark]

LOL! 62. I never liked the term Black, though I understood it, because it emphasized differences. I guess that was the point. It's becoming less useful as more people are mixed-race.

Luckily in my immediate family derogatory terms were verboten.

Watching Muhammad Ali on PBS you can see the transition, with MLK and Abernathy saying Negro and Ali and Malcolm saying Black during the same time period. It's generational.

 

[stollcpa]

For me it keeps going back to how the right seems to be focused on, IMO the dumbest shit when there are much bigger things out there that need energy....like getting through a pandemic, or healthcare reform, or updating our infrastructure, or the exiting of Afghanistan (notice how you didn't see a lot of 'woke libs' arguing against the exit of Afghanistan other than arguing the over-dramatic pearl clutching when it came up, but for the most part, yeah it was/is a crisis).

The right narrative has moved away from actually discussing relevant topics to trying too hard to pwn the libs/scare the base with dumb culture war nonsense.

COH is just feeding into the conspiracy laden base that has led to people truly believing that there are lizard people, there is a pedophile ring of prominent Democrats, that Hillary Clinton drinks baby blood, that Covid is a hoax...no just a flu...no a biological weapon, that vaccines for Covid are dangerous but (insert miracle drug here) works, that the election was rigged (in multiple states with different voting laws so the only thing you can try to tie together are Dominion software and when that didn't work Italian space lasers) and most recently that the white house has a person that controls a mute button on Biden.

It's exhausting, dumb and a complete waste of energy.

So keep on working about 'wokeness' or 'cancel culture' while the rest of us worry about stuff that actually matters, like trying to get this infrastructure bill passed bipartisanly without using reconciliation.

It’s ironic that “woke” and “cancel culture” are off limits. The democrats have shouted racist and multiple phobes at republicans everytime they disagree.

The infrastructure bill is filled with the same bullshit waste and payoffs to democrat politicians. The democrats can’t get the bill in reasonable order to even get the votes of moderate democrats. And woke idiots like AOC and the “Squad” are squawking about not supporting the abomination that’s being pushed. The democrats better clean up their own house on getting something done that matters before talking to republicans.

 

[stollcpa]

It’s not outage at all. It’s annoyance at the stupid stuff the ultra sensitive left thinks up and pushes.

Exactly.

 

[mashnut]

Not even close to being accurate

I was taught in grammar school if a sentence sounds funny it is probably wrong. “They is wrong” sounds funny.

"They is" is wrong.

Wait until someone tells CO that people are daring to use "you" as both singular and plural, and they're even using the same conjugation of to be in both cases! Heads will roll.

 

[hoot1]

The terms were Negro and Oriental.

I'm not out on the street calling strangers Negroes (jeez, spell-check won't even allow it). But I never thought it was derogatory. MLK used it frequently.

I never thought of Oriental as anything but old- fashioned. But, he's not exactly woke. He's upset about the Washington Football Team changing its name.

Once used the term "Asian" in front of Korean friend.

He quickly asked me if I was a Westerner.

I responded with what he meant by "Westerner".

He responded, "No
matter what you call me, what is important is that I am me".

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Wait until someone tells CO that people are daring to use "you" as both singular and plural, and they're even using the same conjugation of to be in both cases! Heads will roll.

Y’all is plural of you. Stop being a moron.

 

[UncleMark]

Y’all is plural of you. Stop being a moron.

Then what's "all y'all"?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Then what's "all y'all"?

All is what y’all get from your all well.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Once used the term "Asian" in front of Korean friend.

He quickly asked me if I was a Westerner.

I responded with he meant by "Westerner".

He responded, "No
matter what you call me, what is important is that I am me".

In the first couple of weeks in my entrance to Medical devices, I asked my Manager what part of Japan he was from..
He said "do I look Japanese to you?" Before I could say, well you all look..... He said, "I am Chinese".

Yes I was that green to the world! Although I've not worked with/ for him for 16 yrs, we still have a pretty good relationship.

 

[NPT]

Thirty years ago my brother lived on the Northern Cheyenne rez in Montana, working for a mission school there. He said the Indians called themselves Indians, and would snicker when anyone called them Native Americans.

But we'll have people that would tell us it's an insult to call them Indians. However, I've heard many blacks call each other the N word but it's never appropriate to call them than IMO.

 

[NPT]

LOL! 62. I never liked the term Black, though I understood it, because it emphasized differences. I guess that was the point. It's becoming less useful as more people are mixed-race.

I don't see anything wrong with it just like I don't care if I'm called white. I think a lot of it has to do with intent. If you're talking face to face you pretty much can tell if a word is meant as an insult.
My wife is Japanese and she knows I don't like the term "Japanese American" because to me she is an American as much as I am. I've had fun out of her being Japanese... People will ask me what she is (and I know they want to know what race she is) and my standard answer is "American". They'll eventually get around to asking the right question. Our daughter went to Egypt, Jordan, and Israel and she said she was constantly getting questions about where she was from.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

The story could easily be written without pronouns. I think Hannah was just showing their wokeness.

“The bicyclist was taken to a hospital with serious injuries, and later died, police said. The bicyclist’s identity has not been released pending family notification.“

Yes....doubt Ms. Metzger is taking lessons from the Bard.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Good write up:

People Have Invented More Than 200 Gender-Neutral Pronouns. Here's Why 'They' Is Here to Stay

Future generations probably won't think twice about it

time.com

Bryan Garner is the gold-standard for American English usage. He's been predicting this for a long time.

Thanks for that woke bullshit.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Read Brad's link. It's not bull crap. It's the rock solid truth.

I read it. The author suggests that the sudden increase in the use of "they" is somehow related to the 'problem' of a 'missing gender-neutral 3rd person pronoun'. That is bullshit. He gets to the heart of it when he talks about its usage for political reasons by the LGBTQ community.

This missing pronoun has NEVER been much of a 'problem', as Co Hoosier and Mcmurty pointed out.

The use of 'they' as a gender neutral pronoun is both awkward and unnecessary.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Again it's perspective. To the right it's why would the left bother with such silly shit. How privileged do you have to be to worry about such inane shit. Personally I couldn't care less. I'll call them anything they want. Doesn't hurt me. But I do believe it can be confusing and problematic in certain circumstances.

regardless i do think this stuff has a generational element. my kid doesn't say african american or black. she'll say you know who i mean. youve met her. she has darker skin. and i'll go YOU MEAN THE BLACK KID!. and she'll yes. she has darker skin.... old guys will die out and all of this will become a nonissue and blend and change more seamlessly

And they won't having any fing idea of what each other is talking about.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

This missing pronoun has NEVER been much of a 'problem', as Co Hoosier and Mcmurty pointed out.

“It is a poverty of the English language that it has no singular pronoun of common gender to represent different genders in the antecedent, or to stand for such words as ‘anybody,’ ‘anyone,’ ‘everybody,’ ‘everyone,’ ‘each,’ ‘either.’ The word ‘they,’ being plural, is not in concord with them.” John F. Genung, Outlines of Rhetoric 80 (1893).

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

“It is a poverty of the English language that it has no singular pronoun of common gender to represent different genders in the antecedent, or to stand for such words as ‘anybody,’ ‘anyone,’ ‘everybody,’ ‘everyone,’ ‘each,’ ‘either.’ The word ‘they,’ being plural, is not in concord with them.” John F. Genung, Outlines of Rhetoric 80 (1893).

That guy was “woke” before it was a thing.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

That guy was “woke” before it was a thing.

Seems like John was on our side. "...they, BEING PLURAL, is not in accord with them". That is, 'they' in this context, is not the answer, as it will only add to the confusion.

Hoisted on your own petard.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I read it. The author suggests that the sudden increase in the use of "they" is somehow related to the 'problem' of a 'missing gender-neutral 3rd person pronoun'. That is bullshit. He gets to the heart of it when he talks about its usage for political reasons by the LGBTQ community.

This missing pronoun has NEVER been much of a 'problem', as Co Hoosier and Mcmurty pointed out.

The use of 'they' as a gender neutral pronoun is both awkward and unnecessary.

Of course it is also used for political reasons. If you have a problem with that usage, fine and dandy. I don't know why you should care, but if it bothers you, have fun with that. But OP wasn't about that. OP was about projecting that usage onto the more traditional usage and then whining about wokeness that isn't even woke. And in order to defend this hand-wringing, you guys have to pretend that the traditional use of the singular they doesn't exist.

Well, you're wrong. In fact the main reason that the missing pronoun has never been a problem, as you say, is that the pronoun isn't missing. They has long been the preferred singular gender-indeterminate pronoun. It's been used by writers and speakers for centuries, from the hypothetical driver in the article saying "They cut me off!" to writers on this very forum, such as CO.H here, and McM here.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Thirty years ago my brother lived on the Northern Cheyenne rez in Montana, working for a mission school there. He said the Indians called themselves Indians, and would snicker when anyone called them Native Americans.

The guy that dropped off my Samosas last night also laughed when I called him Native American.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Of course it is also used for political reasons. If you have a problem with that usage, fine and dandy. I don't know why you should care, but if it bothers you, have fun with that. But OP wasn't about that. OP was about projecting that usage onto the more traditional usage and then whining about wokeness that isn't even woke. And in order to defend this hand-wringing, you guys have to pretend that the traditional use of the singular they doesn't exist.

Well, you're wrong. In fact the main reason that the missing pronoun has never been a problem, as you say, is that the pronoun isn't missing. They has long been the preferred singular gender-indeterminate pronoun. It's been used by writers and speakers for centuries, from the hypothetical driver in the article saying "They cut me off!" to writers on this very forum, such as CO.H here, and McM here.

i intended plural goat.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Seems like John was on our side. "...they, BEING PLURAL, is not in accord with them". That is, 'they' in this context, is not the answer, as it will only add to the confusion.

Hoisted on your own petard.

Actually, his point was that since there was no answer, the English Language is left with no option.

As it says in the KJV Bible: "“In lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves” (Philippians 2:3)
Take it up with the Bible, buddy.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Of course it is also used for political reasons. If you have a problem with that usage, fine and dandy. I don't know why you should care, but if it bothers you, have fun with that. But OP wasn't about that. OP was about projecting that usage onto the more traditional usage and then whining about wokeness that isn't even woke. And in order to defend this hand-wringing, you guys have to pretend that the traditional use of the singular they doesn't exist.

Well, you're wrong. In fact the main reason that the missing pronoun has never been a problem, as you say, is that the pronoun isn't missing. They has long been the preferred singular gender-indeterminate pronoun. It's been used by writers and speakers for centuries, from the hypothetical driver in the article saying "They cut me off!" to writers on this very forum, such as CO.H here, and McM here.

You might want to take another look. CoH's post , when using 'they', is referring to his doctor and her resident. McM is referring to 'at risk kids' in the plural,...i.e., their experiences. In both instances, the plural rather than the singular. And gender is not relevant to the reference. So...you're the one that's wrong, genius. Get over yourself.

As to the alleged frequent use of 'they' in this context, it is far less frequent, as COH and MCM showed with their examples, than the use of non-gender pronouns relevant to the given situation.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

i intended plural goat.

Maybe, but you used a singular construction, and no one thought it sounded funny or awkward. In fact, consider this. If you changed it to a plural construction ("If they earned their GEDs, we'd buy them computers"), you run the risk of being unclear, since that sentence could suggest that the computers would be awarded as a group only if everyone earned their GEDs, rather than as individual awards for individual achievements. So in this case, the singular "they" is actually clearer!