Judge puts Trump out of business in NY?

[SqueakyClean]

You just indicted every single passive-income RE investor in the US....from Donald Trump, to the guy in Road House who rented his barn to Dalton for $100/mo.

Again, I think it is a question of scale, not concept. As I stated in the first half of the post, there's a difference in overvaluing your properties by 10% to 25% and overvaluing your properties by 500% to 1000%.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

The question is, what was the scale of the difference though?

The bank thinks your condo is worth $175,000, you think it should be $250,000. That can be chalked up to opinion.

To put it in perspective of the scale of several of the examples noted in the judgement with the same scenario, the bank thinks your condo is worth $175,000, you think it should be 1.75 million. At some point, it becomes obvious that you are trying to deceive people when you put that valuation on official documents.

Sure, you can put together a trove of documents to justify that position, but things like the square footage of the property being 1/3 of the size of what is actually existing is pretty hard to explain away.

There are several ramifications that go into overvaluation of properties. Property taxes are based on home values. Rent prices to tenants are based upon property values. The values of neighboring properties are influential to each other. By gaming the system and saying that a property is at a low value in one document and then 10x higher on another document, you are trying to game the system for profit. That is not a "victimless" crime. It affects the neighboring properties, your tenants, and the government in general.

Were the material stats of these buildings grossly misstated? That makes you a liar and a bad customer but again, the bank or ins company are responsible for their own opinion based on their own data.

Not to nitpick but Rent prices are based upon market rates not necessarily the value of the property.

 

[zeke4ahs]

All Trump, all the time with you. I'll bet you're real fun at parties.

You said doc not dog. Duh

 

[zeke4ahs]

They don't. They do their due diligence, as required. This is just a political prosecution, which is why none of the banks are party to the lawsuit.

What a victim! He did nothing wrong. I’ve honestly lost track of his number of cases but according to his bootlickers, it’s all political prosecutions. Hey, here’s a clue. Maybe don’t break the law, lie, avoid taxes, and sexually assault women your whole life and they won’t find things to “politically persecute “ you for. Try that…

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Yep.

Who’s next?

 

[SqueakyClean]

Were the material stats of these buildings grossly misstated? That makes you a liar and a bad customer but again, the bank or ins company are responsible for their own opinion based on their own data.

Not to nitpick but Rent prices are based upon market rates not necessarily the value of the property.

For the second part, I think that might depend upon the property and state / local jurisdictions.
I am part owner of the company I work for. The former owner of the company also owns the building but is retiring / transitioning out. He is looking to sell the building and got an assessment. He was told by the assessors that a good chunk of the evaluation is based upon the amount of rent charged.

Perhaps that is just an isolated occurrence for anecdotal evidence, but that's what I'm basing that statement in the referenced post on.

As for the first part, do you consider stating that the square footage of one of your properties to be 3x the size of what it actually is as a gross misstatement?

 

[stollcpa]

Shouldn't you be getting laid or something?

That was later 😂

 

[Bloom.]

All Trump, all the time with you. I'll bet you're real fun at parties.

ICYMI, this is a topic about Trump.

 

[zeke4ahs]

The New York AG ran on a platform to destroy Trump. She is on the cusp of succeeding beyond her wildest expectations. The Trump Organization is about to be stripped of its licenses to do business. Its major buildings and assets will be placed in the hands of a receiver. The state will empty its bank accounts. I think that will destroy Trump in every way imaginable.

All of this because he isn’t a nice guy and a Republican. Vivek Ramaswamy better pay attention. His ideas are much more Radical than Trump’s.

Couldn’t happen to a better guy. Long overdue.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Yep.

Who’s next?

Anyone else who has blatantly flouted the law their entire life. Law and order. Just comply.

 

[stollcpa]

Again, I think it is a question of scale, not concept. As I stated in the first half of the post, there's a difference in overvaluing your properties by 10% to 25% and overvaluing your properties by 500% to 1000%.

I’ve been on bank boards. The loans the size Trump was getting, his valuations had ZERO effect on the loans. The banks had their own professionals preparing appraisals of property and valuations of businesses.

Now operating loans are a different story. Generally they’re based on inventories and receivables. Those amounts are reported to the bank every month and determine your borrowing base for your operating loans. You misstate those balances and it matters to the bank.

 

[Stuffshot]

I have to say that iif what Happy goat says is close...this one feels a bit contrived. I tend to prefer prosecuting crimes where there is a victim and where the person or organization was given bad information or was inconvenienced is at least a party to the suits.

Read the ruling and your questions will be answered:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

1. This case was not about "prosecuting crimes" as you posted. It is a civil case (not criminal) under a specific New York statute.

2. If you really do prefer action "where the person or organization was given bad information" as you posted, then you should be happy, because that's exactly what the judge found in the ruling.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Anyone else who has blatantly flaunted the law their entire life. Law and order. Just comply.

Biden blatantly flouts the border and immigration law every day while in office, violates the constitutional duties of the chief executive, and violates his oath of office. Yet, the democrats hand picked him for a second term. You just need to STFU about Trump. Trump is chickenfeed compared to what is happening at the border.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I’ve been on bank boards. The loans the size Trump was getting, his valuations had ZERO effect on the loans. The banks had their own professionals preparing appraisals of property and valuations of businesses.

Now operating loans are a different story. Generally they’re based on inventories and receivables. Those amounts are reported to the bank every month and determine your borrowing base for your operating loans. You misstate those balances and it matters to the bank.

Exactly. I don’t think the AG or the judge have a clue about what they are doing.

 

[Stuffshot]

OK, but no one has explained why he should lose his permit.

Also, it is far more than losing his ability to do business in NY if his businesses go into receivership.

Read the ruling and all your questions about "why he should lose his permit" will be revealed to you,

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

Short answer: The New York statute says so,

 

[Stuffshot]

I refinanced a condo I was rehabbing in FL. I submitted scads of info including my assessment of it's market value. My opinion of the value was high...so I apparently committed fraud against the bank. The bank came back and provided their assessmernt which was low...so they apparently committed fraud against me.

They got to win the debate so their fraud prevailed over my fraud.

No one lost their license or permits to proceed.

That was in Florida so it's not under the New York statute.

 

[SqueakyClean]

I’ve been on bank boards. The loans the size Trump was getting, his valuations had ZERO effect on the loans. The banks had their own professionals preparing appraisals of property and valuations of businesses.

Now operating loans are a different story. Generally they’re based on inventories and receivables. Those amounts are reported to the bank every month and determine your borrowing base for your operating loans. You misstate those balances and it matters to the bank.

The banks aren't the victims here. This ruling is a condemnation on dirty business practices.

Now, if you want to argue that the scale of the ruling is beyond what is deserved of said dirty business practices, there is solid ground there (and I would probably agree, but like has been noted in this thread, the fallout of what this ruling entails is still fairly vague and what financial ramifications will result). But the fact that it was occurring appears to not be in doubt.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Biden blatantly flouts the border and immigration law every day while in office, violates the constitutional duties of the chief executive, and violates his oath of office. Yet, the democrats hand picked him for a second term. You just need to STFU about Trump. Trump is chickenfeed compared to what is happening at the border.

IBut moving goalposts again. That has nothing to do with Trump’s life of crime. And nope, sorry, not going to stfu about it. I’ve been screaming it from the rooftops since 2015 and will continue to do so. Stop electing and backing known criminals and then I’ll stfu.

 

[Stuffshot]

Trump's assessments were very reasonable imo. You have no idea what they would sell for if they ever hit the market. You can't compare Trump Tower or Maralago which are 2 of the most iconic properties in the country and where King's, Queen's, and Presidents have stayed at to similar size properties down the street. They are unique.

Except for the part where real estate taxes may have been paid based on a much lower value instead of the higher value you are proposing,

 

[Stuffshot]

So how is that a crime again?

Read the ruling:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

It was not a criminal prosecution.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Wasn’t there information out years ago when Trump was running the first time about this? He would overstate the property price to get loans and then understate it for his taxes? I remember I think the NYT running a series of stories on it.?

 

[mattndallas]

As for the first part, do you consider stating that the square footage of one of your properties to be 3x the size of what it actually is as a gross misstatement?

That's for the Lender to decide, if they're even interested.

Given your interest in protecting the citizen that would benefit from Trump's taxes, wouldn't him overstating his square footage, for tax purposes, be beneficial to the general citizen and potential triple Trump's tax bill?

I'm still failing to see how any of this is material, unless a creditor is pushing for justice.

 

[Stuffshot]

The question is, what was the scale of the difference though?

The bank thinks your condo is worth $175,000, you think it should be $250,000. That can be chalked up to opinion.

To put it in perspective of the scale of several of the examples noted in the judgement with the same scenario, the bank thinks your condo is worth $175,000, you think it should be 1.75 million. At some point, it becomes obvious that you are trying to deceive people when you put that valuation on official documents.

Sure, you can put together a trove of documents to justify that position, but things like the square footage of the property being 1/3 of the size of what is actually existing is pretty hard to explain away.

There are several ramifications that go into overvaluation of properties. Property taxes are based on home values. Rent prices to tenants are based upon property values. The values of neighboring properties are influential to each other. By gaming the system and saying that a property is at a low value in one document and then 10x higher on another document, you are trying to game the system for profit. That is not a "victimless" crime. It affects the neighboring properties, your tenants, and the government in general.

Read p. 26 of the ruling in the section marked "Mar-a-Lago":

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

That will inform you how Trump used a much higher value on the financial statement.

 

[IU_Hickory]

Biden blatantly flouts the border and immigration law every day while in office, violates the constitutional duties of the chief executive, and violates his oath of office. Yet, the democrats hand picked him for a second term. You just need to STFU about Trump. Trump is chickenfeed compared to what is happening at the border.

Just because you falsely think that doesn't make it so.

I'll be waiting for the indictments that are most definitely coming based on your well thought out assessment of his criminal behavior....unless you are also claiming that every single prosecutor is a biased liberal and thus protecting Biden by all looking the other way collectively.

 

[Stuffshot]

Fraud must rest on an untrue state of fact.

Read the statutes identified in the ruling:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

Then, you will know what is considered "fraud" or other bad thing in the context of this case.

 

[IUINSB]

Given your interest in protecting the citizen that would benefit from Trump's taxes, wouldn't him overstating his square footage, for tax purposes, be beneficial to the general citizen and potential triple Trump's tax bill?

Yes, yes it would. However, the value was understated for tax urposes.

 

[Stuffshot]

Were the material stats of these buildings grossly misstated? That makes you a liar and a bad customer but again, the bank or ins company are responsible for their own opinion based on their own data.

Not to nitpick but Rent prices are based upon market rates not necessarily the value of the property.

Read the ruling and the legal deficiencies of all your defenses of the Trump defendants will be revealed to you:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

Seriously, I believe the judge addressed all the things you are raising. Life is simple -- do your homework.

 

[Stuffshot]

Yep.

Who’s next?

Others who get caught.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

IBut moving goalposts again. That has nothing to do with Trump’s life of crime. And nope, sorry, not going to stfu about it. I’ve been screaming it from the rooftops since 2015 and will continue to do so. Stop electing and backing known criminals and then I’ll stfu.

Thats the second time you brought up goalposts. Goalposts are for mental weaklings. They don’t mean a damn thing unless you have a reptilian mind.

The point is that Trumps history of bad conduct Id just that history. It is only relevant if you are into payback. Compared to the Biden Administration, Trump was a straight arrow while in office. All the “threat to democracy” stuff is chicken shit compared to what is going on in real time as I write this.

 

[UncleMark]

Thats the second time you brought up goalposts. Goalposts are for mental weaklings. They don’t mean a damn thing unless you have a reptilian mind.

The point is that Trumps history of bad conduct Id just that history. It is only relevant if you are into payback. Compared to the Biden Administration, Trump was a straight arrow while in office. All the “threat to democracy” stuff is chicken shit compared to what is going on in real time as I write this.

This is why no one takes you seriously anymore.

 

[mattndallas]

Yes, yes it would. However, the value was understated for tax urposes.

Hilarious.

So Trump, when he gets the Palm Beach County tax assessment for his property, is supposed to challenge and petition the tax assessor to INCREASE their assessment to "true market value"?

Now you've just indicted every RE owning American...homeowners and commercial.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Thats the second time you brought up goalposts. Goalposts are for mental weaklings. They don’t mean a damn thing unless you have a reptilian mind.

The point is that Trumps history of bad conduct Id just that history. It is only relevant if you are into payback. Compared to the Biden Administration, Trump was a straight arrow while in office. All the “threat to democracy” stuff is chicken shit compared to what is going on in real time as I write this.

Do you really believe that? You’ve truly jumped the shark on Trump.

 

[Stuffshot]

Wasn’t there information out years ago when Trump was running the first time about this? He would overstate the property price to get loans and then understate it for his taxes? I remember I think the NYT running a series of stories on it.?

I think that is how Michael Cohen described things. If you are trying to look it up, search for the accounts of Cohen's testimony and news interviews.

 

[SqueakyClean]

That's for the Lender to decide, if they're even interested.

Given your interest in protecting the citizen that would benefit from Trump's taxes, wouldn't him overstating his square footage, for tax purposes, be beneficial to the general citizen and potential triple Trump's tax bill?

I'm still failing to see how any of this is material, unless a creditor is pushing for justice.

Was he paying the higher rate on his taxes, or the lower one? If we had his taxes, we might know for sure. I'd put 5 bucks down that says he wasn't paying the higher one.

In the case of Mar-a-Lago (as Stuffshot noted above and can be read in the link), "In exchange for granting the easement, Mar-A-Lago was taxed at a significantly lower rate (the club rate) than it otherwise would have been (the private home rate)."

So, at a minimum he was paying the tax rate for a 20 million assessment for a property for the last 20 years that he now claims should be worth between $425,000 to 1.5 billion.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

That's for the Lender to decide, if they're even interested.

Given your interest in protecting the citizen that would benefit from Trump's taxes, wouldn't him overstating his square footage, for tax purposes, be beneficial to the general citizen and potential triple Trump's tax bill?

I'm still failing to see how any of this is material, unless a creditor is pushing for justice.

And in this case, the poor creditor was harmed by collecting more interest than they would have at a lower value. oh the shame.

 

[IU_Hickory]

Thats the second time you brought up goalposts. Goalposts are for mental weaklings. They don’t mean a damn thing unless you have a reptilian mind.

The point is that Trumps history of bad conduct Id just that history. It is only relevant if you are into payback. Compared to the Biden Administration, Trump was a straight arrow while in office. All the “threat to democracy” stuff is chicken shit compared to what is going on in real time as I write this.

You wouldn't have to move the goalposts if you had a valid point.

So if I rob a bank and they come to arrest me, then I should just tell them to stop living in the past? lmao

 

[stollcpa]

The banks aren't the victims here. This ruling is a condemnation on dirty business practices.

Now, if you want to argue that the scale of the ruling is beyond what is deserved of said dirty business practices, there is solid ground there (and I would probably agree, but like has been noted in this thread, the fallout of what this ruling entails is still fairly vague and what financial ramifications will result). But the fact that it was occurring appears to not be in doubt.

What’s the dirty business practices? How were we harmed by what Trump said he was worth it?

 

[IUINSB]

Hilarious.

So Trump, when he gets the Palm Beach County tax assessment for his property, is supposed to challenge and petition the tax assessor to INCREASE their assessment to "true market value"?

Now you've just indicted every RE owning American...homeowners and commercial.

Matt, I really don't care what it is worth. Taxing authority says $26 million, Trumps wanted that reduced to $18 million, Eric Trump now says MAL is worth over a billion.
Pick one and stick with it.

 

[mattndallas]

Was he paying the higher rate on his taxes, or the lower one? If we had his taxes, we might know for sure. I'd put 5 bucks down that says he wasn't paying the higher one.

In the case of Mar-a-Lago (as Stuffshot noted above and can be read in the link), "In exchange for granting the easement, Mar-A-Lago was taxed at a significantly lower rate (the club rate) than it otherwise would have been (the private home rate)."

So, at a minimum he was paying the tax rate for a 20 million assessment for a property for the last 20 years that he now claims should be worth between $425,000 to 1.5 billion.

Yeah...that's not a crime, unless he was somehow bribing the Palm Beach tax assessor illegally to keep his tax assessed value low.

If his lenders had no problem with his estimated market values, there is no issue here.

I read stuffshot's document re Mar-a Lago. I still fail to see what, if anything, is Trump's fault?

 

[Stuffshot]

Hilarious.

So Trump, when he gets the Palm Beach County tax assessment for his property, is supposed to challenge and petition the tax assessor to INCREASE their assessment to "true market value"?

Now you've just indicted every RE owning American...homeowners and commercial.

No that's not it. The ruling is much more concerned with the higher values that were used in the Statements of Financial Condition (which you did not mention) to get loans,

Read pp. 25 and 26 of the ruling for the part about Mar-a-Lago's values, but keep in mind the ruling also discusses elsewhere the various values for probably 15-20 other Trump assets:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org