The complaint is public

[Marvin the Martian]

Yes, it is, but unless it was Trump who ordered the concealment, it's evidence that his aides were conscious of his guilt. I think that Trump has limited consciousness of his own guilt (this is the guy who thought the explosive "transcript" would be exculpatory), so it's plausible that Trump might not have ordered the concealment because he didn't really comprehend the problem.

That is the damming part to those saying the transcript showed nothing wrong. Even those closest to the president saw how wrong it was and tried to hide it.

But you make a bothersome point, it is unlikely Trump ordered a cover-up because he is incapable of believing he did anything wrong. I do not think a cover-up is going to reach him.

 

[toastedbread]

That is the damming part to those saying the transcript showed nothing wrong. Even those closest to the president saw how wrong it was and tried to hide it.

But you make a bothersome point, it is unlikely Trump ordered a cover-up because he is incapable of believing he did anything wrong. I do not think a cover-up is going to reach him.

It's possible that there is in fact no coverup. I read that they went to this top secret system for all calls, after some stuff leaked to the press from prior calls. It would make sense from a nat sec perspective that you don't want these calls leaking. The fact that attacking Biden is what will bring the content of these calls to light is all the more ironic. The calls may have been hidden for the right reason, but it makes the conduct on the calls no less outrageous.

 

[Rockfish1]

That is the damming part to those saying the transcript showed nothing wrong. Even those closest to the president saw how wrong it was and tried to hide it.

But you make a bothersome point, it is unlikely Trump ordered a cover-up because he is incapable of believing he did anything wrong. I do not think a cover-up is going to reach him.

Basically all of the defenses being offered are bullshit, and given the pace of revelations, they're being shown to be bullshit even as they're being made. It's essentially indisputable that Trump and Giuliani shook down Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden. Either that's enough to impeach or it isn't, but only the mulishly stupid could doubt what happened here.

One quibble though: I wouldn't say it's unlikely that Trump ordered the concealment. I'd say only that it seems plausible that he didn't because he may be that clueless about his own corruption.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I'd say only that it seems plausible that he didn't because he may be that clueless about his own corruption

I think a few days ago you used the right word, psychotic. He only understands what is best for and about him, that others exist is lost on him. The greatest evidence, the photo op with the baby in Texas after the shooting. So I guess someone psychotic is capable of lying or taking other steps to protect themselves.

 

[Rockfish1]

It's possible that there is in fact no coverup. I read that they went to this top secret system for all calls, after some stuff leaked to the press from prior calls. It would make sense from a nat sec perspective that you don't want these calls leaking. The fact that attacking Biden is what will bring the content of these calls to light is all the more ironic. The calls may have been hidden for the right reason, but it makes the conduct on the calls no less outrageous.

It's not lawful to classify materials to prevent embarrassment or conceal scandal. That's particularly true if the White House decided Trump was so awful that they had to conceal evidence of all his conversations.

 

[Rockfish1]

I think a few days ago you used the right word, psychotic. He only understands what is best for and about him, that others exist is lost on him. The greatest evidence, the photo op with the baby in Texas after the shooting. So I guess someone psychotic is capable of lying or taking other steps to protect themselves.

I called him a sociopath, but the distinctions between psychopaths and sociopaths are a bit murky.

Despite my quibbling, I agree with you.

 

[toastedbread]

It's not lawful to classify materials to prevent embarrassment or conceal scandal. That's particularly true if the White House decided Trump was so awful that they had to conceal evidence of all his conversations.

I'm not an expert on proper procedure, but it's possible that the materials were classified in order to prevent leaks after earlier calls were leaked. I'd suggest that's a reasonable justification, if that was the rationale. If it was done to in order to conceal, that's a different story. We don't know the answer at the current time.

Irrespective of whether the calls themselves should have been classified or not, the people listening to those calls had a duty to act, a duty they did not carry out. The whole adults in the room crap was a bunch of BS because they did not act to stop this traitor.

 

[toastedbread]

I think a few days ago you used the right word, psychotic. He only understands what is best for and about him, that others exist is lost on him. The greatest evidence, the photo op with the baby in Texas after the shooting. So I guess someone psychotic is capable of lying or taking other steps to protect themselves.

https://indiana.forums.rivals.com/threads/impeachment.188049/#post-2750290

Btw, i still believe that Obama should have declared martial law and had Trump and co. held in detention prior to the 2016 election. The actions of the Russians were an act of war, and the current POTUS was in cahoots with them.

 

[toastedbread]

I think a few days ago you used the right word, psychotic. He only understands what is best for and about him, that others exist is lost on him. The greatest evidence, the photo op with the baby in Texas after the shooting. So I guess someone psychotic is capable of lying or taking other steps to protect themselves.

My biggest concern now is that Trump will do something truly nuts, like start a war. Will someone in the room of adults be able to prevent that?

 

[Rockfish1]

I'm not an expert on proper procedure, but it's possible that the materials were classified in order to prevent leaks after earlier calls were leaked. I'd suggest that's a reasonable justification, if that was the rationale. If it was done to in order to conceal, that's a different story. We don't know the answer at the current time.

Irrespective of whether the calls themselves should have been classified or not, the people listening to those calls had a duty to act, a duty they did not carry out. The whole adults in the room crap was a bunch of BS because they did not act to stop this traitor.

I'm not an expert either, but do you remember when the transcripts of Trump's calls with the leaders of Mexico and Australia were released? The transcripts contained nothing of consequence to our national security, but they made Trump look like a complete idiot. Yes, of course, we can all agree that private conversations our President has with other world leaders should remain confidential. But this doesn't make it lawful to classify unclassified materials to prevent political harm to those in power.

More fundamentally, there's a human urge to give people the benefit of the doubt. We all feel more reasonable if we concede The Other Guys an assumption of good faith. But Team Trump is operating well outside the bounds where people are entitled to a benefit of doubts. By their actions they've shown that they instead deserve a burden of suspicion. If you assume they're acting badly, you're more likely to be right.

 

[Thyrsis]

More fundamentally, there's a human urge to give people the benefit of the doubt.

An urge that only Democrats seem to follow.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

An urge that only Democrats seem to follow.

That is not fair, the GOP would have given Obama the benefit of the doubt had he done small things instead of major events like having a Kenyan father, wearing a tan suit, or wrongly be accused of planning an invasion of Texas.

 

[MonroeCity]

The Federalist: Intel Community Secretly Nixed Whistleblower Demand Of First-Hand Info
This looks suspicious.

 

[MonroeCity]

SNU, you bring up an important aspect regarding impeachment. This aspect being how the body politic feels regarding impeachment and the reaction to the latest report regarding Trump's alleged attempt to get a foreign government involved in our politics.

SNU, the poll you linked tells me the public is divided along political lines.

IMO only when a sizeable number (at least say 26%) of the Pubs and self proclaimed independents jump on the guilty bandwagon will a successful impeachment and Senate conviction process begin to take place.

Washington Post: Across a divided nation, skepticism about impeachment
"They don't ordinarily agree with each other. They watch different channels, hear different versions of the news and view neighbors across a gaping, painful political divide. But in swing districts across the country, the idea of impeaching the president has brought some Americans together: They're wary of deploying the Constitution's ultimate weapon - one that takes the decision about who is president out of voters' hands.

 

[tooold4]

Washington Post: Across a divided nation, skepticism about impeachment
"They don't ordinarily agree with each other. They watch different channels, hear different versions of the news and view neighbors across a gaping, painful political divide. But in swing districts across the country, the idea of impeaching the president has brought some Americans together: They're wary of deploying the Constitution's ultimate weapon - one that takes the decision about who is president out of voters' hands.

The fact we aren't governed by a true democracy can be a bit confusing and a revelation to some folks. It looks like this article was aimed in their direction.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

https://indiana.forums.rivals.com/threads/impeachment.188049/#post-2750290

Btw, i still believe that Obama should have declared martial law and had Trump and co. held in detention prior to the 2016 election. The actions of the Russians were an act of war, and the current POTUS was in cahoots with them.

Martial law! That's crazy talk.

 

[tooold4]

If all conversations are made public, the discussions on how to build resorts on the beach in North Korea should be fantastic reading.

 

[toastedbread]

I'm not an expert either, but do you remember when the transcripts of Trump's calls with the leaders of Mexico and Australia were released? The transcripts contained nothing of consequence to our national security, but they made Trump look like a complete idiot. Yes, of course, we can all agree that private conversations our President has with other world leaders should remain confidential. But this doesn't make it lawful to classify unclassified materials to prevent political harm to those in power.

More fundamentally, there's a human urge to give people the benefit of the doubt. We all feel more reasonable if we concede The Other Guys an assumption of good faith. But Team Trump is operating well outside the bounds where people are entitled to a benefit of doubts. By their actions they've shown that they instead deserve a burden of suspicion. If you assume they're acting badly, you're more likely to be right.

That Australia call was moronic. Jeepers.

I don't give them the benefit of the doubt. I haven't from day 1. There were a lot of people in those rooms, and I won't ascribe motivations to all of them. I believe folks like McMaster and Mattis would be concerned about the leaking for reasons of national security as opposed to politics. Otoh, someone like Pompeo would be solely concerned about the politics. There are simply too many unknowns to effectively determine what happened. We will find out in short order.

 

[Stuffshot]

That is the damming part to those saying the transcript showed nothing wrong. Even those closest to the president saw how wrong it was and tried to hide it.

But you make a bothersome point, it is unlikely Trump ordered a cover-up because he is incapable of believing he did anything wrong. I do not think a cover-up is going to reach him.

But Trump knows criticism, even if he doesn't recognize a crime. If he ordered a cover-up of criticism while failing to see his actions were to cover-up a crime, it's still a cover-up of a crime.

Ignorance of the Trump is no excuse (and, that kind of ignorance is not believable in the first place).

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

Keeping transcripts of conversations with foreign leaders under wraps has been common practice since early in the Trump admin.

That is because this admin has more leaks than the Iraqi navy, nothing more nefarious than that.

 

[Stuffshot]

I think a few days ago you used the right word, psychotic. He only understands what is best for and about him, that others exist is lost on him. The greatest evidence, the photo op with the baby in Texas after the shooting. So I guess someone psychotic is capable of lying or taking other steps to protect themselves.

Look at this photo.
Trump may be constantly thinking about what would be best for him, but he certainly isn't capable of understanding what is best either for him or for the nation.

Another example is Trump's release of the non-transcript "transcript" of the whistleblower telephone call. Trump thought releasing that document would forestall his impeachment when instead it just showed how corrupt he was and made impeachment inevitable. He just doesn't understand what works outside the business world -- public service just doesn't permit someone to do whatever they want no matter how big his ego is.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

Look at this photo.
Trump may be constantly thinking about what would be best for him, but he certainly isn't capable of understanding what is best either for him or for the nation.

Another example is Trump's release of the non-transcript "transcript" of the whistleblower telephone call. Trump thought releasing that document would forestall his impeachment when instead it just showed how corrupt he was and made impeachment inevitable. He just doesn't understand what works outside the business world -- public service just doesn't permit someone to do whatever they want no matter how big his ego is.

Looks like a pretty cute photo.


The type of photo where Democrats would #relationshipgoals if it was Barry and Michelle holding the little girl.

Because they were totes the most perfect couple eva.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Looks like a pretty cute photo.


The type of photo where Democrats would #relationshipgoals if it was Barry and Michelle holding the little girl.

Because they were totes the most perfect couple eva.

Of course, it's T.Rump's third marriage, so there's that.

 

[MonroeCity]

It's possible that there is in fact no coverup. I read that they went to this top secret system for all calls, after some stuff leaked to the press from prior calls. It would make sense from a nat sec perspective that you don't want these calls leaking. The fact that attacking Biden is what will bring the content of these calls to light is all the more ironic. The calls may have been hidden for the right reason, but it makes the conduct on the calls no less outrageous.

Politico: White House ordered ultrasecret system upgraded to prevent leaks
"The Trump White House upgraded the security of the National Security Council's codeword system in the spring of 2018, according to two former Trump White House officials familiar with the matter, as part of an effort to ferret out and deter leaks."