'Star Wars'......

[T.M.P.]

Agreed. I thought he captured that old Han Solo magic perfectly.

As a non-EU guy, I don't care either way beyond discussion. I'm listening to some hard core Star Wars nerds (Rebel Force Radio, Current Geek and The Incomparable) who agree this is a retelling, but they feel there is nothing wrong with this.

Spoiler: Here's the thing

I have a question for both of you at the end of this .. but hear me out.

As a story telling vehicle many writers of film, stage, and book use characters, plot lines, story, scenes, etc from their favorite sources, be it book, film, friends. Whatever. Tarantino as an example.

What I learned in screenwriting class was when done consciously, the reasoning was that every detail was pre-filled, so it helped creatively to use, borrow, steal. It's very common. In any medium. Robert Jordan wrote a whole series of books based solely on this method. I don't know if, it, the technique, method, has a name. Goat?

Of course it's also done subconsciously - because we only know how to play what we've already heard.

Star Wars the original was also written in this manner. IV especially. that's why IV was such a great story, even if it was weaker film. it's thee story, using regurgitated material from multiple, unrelated, sources superimposed on Campbell's path and set in space.

Okay, in IV, we have a prewritten path that has been used countless times. On top of that was a character from Once Upon a Time in the West, mixed with a Samurai Warlord. A young King Arthur. Merlin mixed with a Monk. With scenes like the trench run borrowed from a WW2 movie about British dambusters, R2 and C3P0 as the peasants in Hidden Fortress, etc etc etc etc ...

So, that, to me is okay. Part of normal creative process.

In this movie we have characters from Star Wars books superimposed on top of Star Wars IV. I get what he did, I really do. I just don't like it. Do you? It's supposed to be the next in a series. It would be comparable to Martin releasing his next book and having characters from Dunk and Egg at the Blue (not Red) Wedding.

Also, credit or mention to/of the original writers would be, ugh, nice. That was weak.

As a film, this was the best of the whole series. It's better than V. Technically. Best acting by far. Cinematography Kurosawa would like. Art design was perfect. Except the one CGI character. The story is really good too, as good as IV, because well, it was good the first time I saw it, but it truly is a tracing.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Spoiler: Here's the thing

I have a question for both of you at the end of this .. but hear me out.

As a story telling vehicle many writers of film, stage, and book use characters, plot lines, story, scenes, etc from their favorite sources, be it book, film, friends. Whatever. Tarantino as an example.

What I learned in screenwriting class was when done consciously, the reasoning was that every detail was pre-filled, so it helped creatively to use, borrow, steal. It's very common. In any medium. Robert Jordan wrote a whole series of books based solely on this method. I don't know if, it, the technique, method, has a name. Goat?

Of course it's also done subconsciously - because we only know how to play what we've already heard.

Star Wars the original was also written in this manner. IV especially. that's why IV was such a great story, even if it was weaker film. it's thee story, using regurgitated material from multiple, unrelated, sources superimposed on Campbell's path and set in space.

Okay, in IV, we have a prewritten path that has been used countless times. On top of that was a character from Once Upon a Time in the West, mixed with a Samurai Warlord. A young King Arthur. Merlin mixed with a Monk. With scenes like the trench run borrowed from a WW2 movie about British dambusters, R2 and C3P0 as the peasants in Hidden Fortress, etc etc etc etc ...

So, that, to me is okay. Part of normal creative process.

In this movie we have characters from Star Wars books superimposed on top of Star Wars IV. I get what he did, I really do. I just don't like it. Do you?

Also, credit or mention to/of the original writers would be ugh, nice. That was weak.

As a film, this was the best of the whole series. It's better than V. Technically. Best acting by far. Cinematography Kurosawa would like. Art design was perfect. The story is really good too, as good as IV, because well, it was good the first time I saw it, but it truly is a tracing.

Note: TMP and I are discussing major spoilers here. Do not read our conversation if you haven't seen the film. You've been warned.

Spoiler: Here's your answer.

Here's the thing about borrowing. It's always going to happen, consciously, subconsciously, or even accidentally. In all of storytelling, be it stage, film, or written word, there is ultimately only one plot: protagonist solves a problem and grows as a result. Every single story ever told is a variation on that plot. So when you call VII a tracing of IV, part of what you're saying is simply this: they are both stories.

Now, Abrams and Kasdan certainly looked back to the original trilogy for inspiration. The similarities go beyond the basics. There are connections in the details, as well. And some of those details I think go too far. I could have done without the Starkiller Base. I really thought that whole part of the plot was lazy.

But there are other similarities that were always going to happen naturally, especially when you expand your body of comparison to the EU. Han and Leia's child as the antagonist? At first blush, that might also seem lazy, but if you think about it further, you realize there was no other option. Just as people who read the novels (NB: I'm not one of them) should have seen it coming with Jacen, and should have accepted it was inevitable, moviegoers should recognize that Abrams had no choice. The Stars Wars universe as it was already constructed left no other believable option. The scene with Han and Kylo on the bridge was written the moment Han said, "Either I'm going to kill her, or I'm beginning to like her," and it was carved in stone when Yoda said, "There is another." It was already there; Abrams and Kasdan just had to find it.

A lot of writing is more a type of exploration and discovery than it is construction and design. Writers who try to force the story into what they think it should be usually produce crap. Writers who let the world they've created (or been handed, in this case) grow organically, and simply attempt to seek out where the story itself wants to unfold, usually produce gold.

EDIT: On a related note, it's also worth remembering that epic tales often include this type of repetition. Part of it is the human desire to seek patterns, I'm sure, but whatever it is, it's perfectly natural for any world history - real or fictional - to repeat itself. Remember your Karl Marx.

So, I do think there are some details that are worthy of criticism - like Starkiller. But, for the most part, criticizing the film for it's thematic and story similarities to IV is a fool's task. Any good story was going to have similarities to be found. Instead, I think the film should be judged on its own merits, in which case it should definitely be ranked up there with IV and V.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Side note: if anyone missed it, the Post had a great take last week on Star Wars, Ken Burns-style.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...8/star-wars-if-it-were-directed-by-ken-burns/

 

[C-$]

Say it with me one time so you all remember:

ABRAMS IS ONLY DOING THIS FIRST MOVIE!

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Say it with me one time so you all remember:

ABRAMS IS ONLY DOING THIS FIRST MOVIE!

Abrams is essentially executive producer of the entire trilogy. He is the new Lucas. Who cares if he only directs one of them? Lucas only directed one of the originals.

And none of that matters in a discussion about this movie, which he did direct.

So what's your point? I know it's a Saturday, but drunk at 7 am? Even for you...

 

[C-$]

Abrams is essentially executive producer of the entire trilogy. He is the new Lucas. Who cares if he only directs one of them? Lucas only directed one of the originals.

And none of that matters in a discussion about this movie, which he did direct.

So what's your point? I know it's a Saturday, but drunk at 7 am? Even for you...

That was not my understanding.

No, I'm sober, you dick...

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

That was not my understanding.

No, I'm sober, you dick...

I'm guessing in a few hours, though...

 

[C-$]

I'm guessing in a few hours, though...

Negative.....

A little red wine.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Negative.....

A little red wine.

Bullshit. First bowl game since the Grant administration and you're not going to get loaded?

I'm planning on being plastered by half time.

 

[C-$]

Bullshit. First bowl game since the Grant administration and you're not going to get loaded?

I'm planning on being plastered by half time.

I'm really not.....

I guess maybe I should get more supplies.

 

[IU40IU]

Bullshit. First bowl game since the Grant administration and you're not going to get loaded?

I'm planning on being plastered by half time.

Indeed. Some Epiphany tripel from Oaken Barrel and I'm set. Can't wait for this game.

And I loved the Force Awakens. Han was very good but there was a reason Leia had a small role.

Like an earlier post stated, it was like seeing an old friend.

 

[T.M.P.]

Say it with me one time so you all remember:

ABRAMS IS ONLY DOING THIS FIRST MOVIE!

He wrote the treatment for the next two. Idiot..

 

[C-$]

He wrote the treatment for the next two. Idiot..

ESAD. I didn't know that. SMD.

 

[Zizkov]

I was under the impression that episode 8 is primarily written by Lawrence Kasdan and Simon Kinberg.

 

[C-$]

I was under the impression that episode 8 is primarily written by Lawrence Kasdan and Simon Kinberg.

Dude, that's what I read as well. The story I read made it sound like Abrams was only going to be involved with the first one.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I was under the impression that episode 8 is primarily written by Lawrence Kasdan and Simon Kinberg.

Rian Johnson is directing and writing. But Kasdan wrote the treatment with Abrams.

I think that's how it's working. They are doing a little flying by the seat of their pants, so who knows how it will end up.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Dude, that's what I read as well. The story I read made it sound like Abrams was only going to be involved with the first one.

He's going to be "involved" in all of them, same as he's still "involved" in Star Trek. He's just not going to direct either of the next two.

 

[Zizkov]

He's going to be "involved" in all of them, same as he's still "involved" in Star Trek. He's just not going to direct either of the next two.

I believe he will be an Executive producer the rest of the way through.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I believe he will be an Executive producer the rest of the way through.

Correct. And he and Kasdan, as I understand it, have already provided at least a broad treatment for both VIII and IX. The story is going to go where he wants it to.

 

[T.M.P.]

Note: TMP and I are discussing major spoilers here. Do not read our conversation if you haven't seen the film. You've been warned.

Spoiler: Here's your answer.

Here's the thing about borrowing. It's always going to happen, consciously, subconsciously, or even accidentally. In all of storytelling, be it stage, film, or written word, there is ultimately only one plot: protagonist solves a problem and grows as a result. Every single story ever told is a variation on that plot. So when you call VII a tracing of IV, part of what you're saying is simply this: they are both stories.

Now, Abrams and Kasdan certainly looked back to the original trilogy for inspiration. The similarities go beyond the basics. There are connections in the details, as well. And some of those details I think go too far. I could have done without the Starkiller Base. I really thought that whole part of the plot was lazy.

But there are other similarities that were always going to happen naturally, especially when you expand your body of comparison to the EU. Han and Leia's child as the antagonist? At first blush, that might also seem lazy, but if you think about it further, you realize there was no other option. Just as people who read the novels (NB: I'm not one of them) should have seen it coming with Jacen, and should have accepted it was inevitable, moviegoers should recognize that Abrams had no choice. The Stars Wars universe as it was already constructed left no other believable option. The scene with Han and Kylo on the bridge was written the moment Han said, "Either I'm going to kill her, or I'm beginning to like her," and it was carved in stone when Yoda said, "There is another." It was already there; Abrams and Kasdan just had to find it.

A lot of writing is more a type of exploration and discovery than it is construction and design. Writers who try to force the story into what they think it should be usually produce crap. Writers who let the world they've created (or been handed, in this case) grow organically, and simply attempt to seek out where the story itself wants to unfold, usually produce gold.

EDIT: On a related note, it's also worth remembering that epic tales often include this type of repetition. Part of it is the human desire to seek patterns, I'm sure, but whatever it is, it's perfectly natural for any world history - real or fictional - to repeat itself. Remember your Karl Marx.

So, I do think there are some details that are worthy of criticism - like Starkiller. But, for the most part, criticizing the film for it's thematic and story similarities to IV is a fool's task. Any good story was going to have similarities to be found. Instead, I think the film should be judged on its own merits, in which case it should definitely be ranked up there with IV and V.

Spoiler: Yea..

It's not the borrowing of EU that bothers me, as you are correct it's almost unavoidable, because most people would have gone the same path regardless if they read the books or not. It's the path the story flows to. I, if I could, would have done the same.

That they didn't come out and say, "these characters are highly influenced by EU books", which they are, that annoys me. Instead they say nothing of the sort, thus looking and acting like they created them. And, those characters are not borrowed, or influenced, they are truly stolen. Only the names have been changed. That annoys me a bit.

Filmmakers are fking scum, they lack creative integrity more than any other type of artist. fwiw starkiller (and everything else that is not apparently ep IV) is is also directly "borrowed" from the Legacy set of EU books.

The superimposing of EU on top of Ep IV is the thing bothers me, even if it works. I just feel it's lazy or that JJ played it way too safe. I've never believed lazy or safe deserves credit.. and I really don't think much of JJ Abrams at this point. I'm hoping for less Ep V, in the next movie. If this trilogy ends with another death star, being the fourth regurgitation of a dumb idea.. well.

I have very little doubt that Rey is Luke's daughter. Since every story is about a Skywalker. If she turns out to be Han's that will make this movies details stupid.

 

[Zizkov]

Correct. And he and Kasdan, as I understand it, have already provided at least a broad treatment for both VIII and IX. The story is going to go where he wants it to.

I would assume so, he was chosen for a reason. These stories were basically written long ago, they get to pick and choose what to include. Hopefully they choose well.

 

[T.M.P.]

I was under the impression that episode 8 is primarily written by Lawrence Kasdan and Simon Kinberg.

The screenplay, before the screenplay comes the treatment, after the screenplay comes the story boarding.. then filming, then editing.

Gawd... take a class... vbg

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The screenplay, before the screenplay comes the treatment, after the screenplay comes the story boarding.. then filming, then editing.

Gawd... take a class... vbg

And even then, it's still wrong. I think that was the original plan, but now Johnson is definitely writing VIII, and might write IX, too.

 

[Zizkov]

The screenplay, before the screenplay comes the treatment, after the screenplay comes the story boarding.. then filming, then editing.

Gawd... take a class... vbg

I get all of that, but as I said, this story was written long ago, they aren't going to change it drastically.

I have never read a page of any Star Wars book and I knew what to expect in 7 and have a pretty good idea of episode 8. This isn't brain surgery (even Ben Carson can do that) it's the most basic story line known to man.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

BTW, if Disney hadn't been so impatient, we might have gotten a Michael Arndt script for VII. I would have loved to see where he went with it.

 

[Zizkov]

BTW, if Disney hadn't been so impatient, we might have gotten a Michael Arndt script for VII. I would have loved to see where he went with it.

I'm not sure SW needs Buzz Lightyear. That's all I know about him.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I'm not sure SW needs Buzz Lightyear. That's all I know about him.

He did Little Miss Sunshine, among others.

Reading between the lines, I believe it was Arndt's influence that gave Kylo Ren his depth, rather than portraying him as a ready-made complete villain. The bad guy Anakin should have been in the prequels, really.

 

[Zizkov]

He did Little Miss Sunshine, among others.

Reading between the lines, I believe it was Arndt's influence that gave Kylo Ren his depth, rather than portraying him as a ready-made complete villain. The bad guy Anakin should have been in the prequels, really.

I actually hope they give Kylo some balls. He seems like a pu$$y right now. Darth made you fear him, granted he was farther along. Kylo seems like a weak mo (NTTAWWT).

 

[C-$]

I actually hope they give Kylo some balls. He seems like a pu$$y right now. Darth made you fear him, granted he was farther along. Kylo seems like a weak mo (NTTAWWT).

Cosign.

Big pussy.

 

[IU40IU]

I actually hope they give Kylo some balls. He seems like a pu$$y right now. Darth made you fear him, granted he was farther along. Kylo seems like a weak mo (NTTAWWT).

I thought the same thing and said as much to my wife. But he is still early in his "training". Annikan was a little beyotch too early on.

 

[Zizkov]

I thought the same thing and said as much to my wife. But he is still early in his "training". Annikan was a little beyotch too early on.

I assume killing Han and his implied training by the big ugly guy will harden him, but I found his character very uninspiring.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I actually hope they give Kylo some balls. He seems like a pu$$y right now. Darth made you fear him, granted he was farther along. Kylo seems like a weak mo (NTTAWWT).

Cosign.

Big pussy.

I thought the same thing and said as much to my wife. But he is still early in his "training". Annikan was a little beyotch too early on.

That's going to pay off in the end. The effort put into his development as a villain will make him that much more convincing moving forward.

 

[Zizkov]

That's going to pay off in the end. The effort put into his development as a villain will make him that much more convincing moving forward.

I don't know. I will always see him as a pu$$y because I know Skywalker juniorette is going to kick his ass. Making him the biggest pu$$y in the history of the dark side. I'm sure he will kill millions of faceless beings, but will never shake the pu$$y stigma.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Spoiler: Yea..

It's not the borrowing of EU that bothers me, as you are correct it's almost unavoidable, because most people would have gone the same path regardless if they read the books or not. It's the path the story flows to. I, if I could, would have done the same.

That they didn't come out and say, "these characters are highly influenced by EU books", which they are, that annoys me. Instead they say nothing of the sort, thus looking and acting like they created them. And, those characters are not borrowed, or influenced, they are truly stolen. Only the names have been changed. That annoys me a bit.

Filmmakers are fking scum, they lack creative integrity more than any other type of artist. fwiw starkiller (and everything else that is not apparently ep IV) is is also directly "borrowed" from the Legacy set of EU books.

The superimposing of EU on top of Ep IV is the thing bothers me, even if it works. I just feel it's lazy or that JJ played it way too safe. I've never believed lazy or safe deserves credit.. and I really don't think much of JJ Abrams at this point. I'm hoping for less Ep V, in the next movie. If this trilogy ends with another death star, being the fourth regurgitation of a dumb idea.. well.

I have very little doubt that Rey is Luke's daughter. Since every story is about a Skywalker. If she turns out to be Han's that will make this movies details stupid.

I get what you're saying, but...

Spoiler: But....

They have been very public about the fact that the EU is still a source, even if it's no longer canon. And there are ways to shout out to it, which they did. For example, the name "Ben Solo." That wasn't a coincidence.

I agree Abrams played it safe in a lot of places. Can't deny that. Some of the worst decisions, like the Starkiller I keep criticizing, were all about playing it safe.

But he had some balls here and there. Killing Han, while necessary, was still ballsy. It takes guts sometimes to do what is necessary (yes, I recognize the irony in making that statement about that scene).

It was also ballsy to give up some of the CGI in favor of practical effects. I think there were only two CGI characters with any serious screen time, correct? Maz and Snoke? But this movie captured the feel of the originals very well, and the types of effects used were a huge part of that. But again, even though it was obviously the right choice, it still took guts to actually do.

 

[T.M.P.]

I get all of that, but as I said, this story was written long ago, they aren't going to change it drastically.

I have never read a page of any Star Wars book and I knew what to expect in 7 and have a pretty good idea of episode 8. This isn't brain surgery (even Ben Carson can do that) it's the most basic story line known to man.

Spoiler: .

Yea, it was probably the most predictable movie ever. fwiw - The plot was Ep IV, the new characters and Starkiller were EU as was anything not epIV , actually I should quit calling it that and call it Legacy, as that was the series all of the new stuff was from. They borrowed a only few details from it though. Most characters. Jaina Rey, Jacen Kylo, Starkiller. Knight of (the new Imperial order... whatever)

The only story line they straight borrowed from Legacy was Luke seeking a planet and going into hiding questioning his ability, after his nephew goes dark and kills his wife. That was taken almost verbatim.

So, I will predict that Kylo killed Rey's mother because Jacen killed Luke's wife.

And of course, they borrowed this from KotOR.

I wish though they would have changed it to this. I always though Revan was better portrayed as a woman.

They should really get one of these. It's a psychopathic shit talking assassin droid disguised as a protocol droid.. Best SW character ever created.

I love that you guys are speaking nerd with me. lol .... it cracks me up. I know, easily amused. Only 78vette, I wish he would post, can out nerd me though.

I'm going and seeing it again on wednesday. Tiff's daughter, fell in love with it. So we just watched the first six. First time she had seen them.

Here's an amazing thing I noticed. During VII she was enthralled with the screen. Big eyes, pure fascination. So she wanted to see the other movies. We started with I a few days ago. A movie a day. I asked her which order. She said ep.I first. I argued I wanted IV. She won. We talked very little about what to expect and just observed her as she watched. No spoilers!

Ep I, as soon as part one of the movie was over with she lost interest. The minute the blah blah blah started. Ep II, she played with her IPAD, and fell asleep. Ep III she started paying attention half way through and to every action scene and the end and asked questions. Involved again.

Then came ep IV, wide eyed, smiling, laughing and paying attention all the way through. Ep V, paying attention and pointing out silly stuff, but involved. "Wait, isn't she his sister?" "Gross!" Ep VI was complaining about the movie, thinking ewoks are dumb, but involved. A nerd in the making ..

"Truly wonderful a mind of a child is"

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Spoiler: .

Yea, it was probably the most predictable movie ever. fwiw - The plot was Ep IV, the new characters and Starkiller were EU as was anything not epIV , actually I should quit calling it that and call it Legacy, as that was the series all of the new stuff was from. They borrowed a only few details from it though. Most characters. Jaina Rey, Jacen Kylo, Starkiller. Knight of (the new Imperial order... whatever)

The only story line they straight borrowed from Legacy was Luke seeking a planet and going into hiding questioning his ability, after his nephew goes dark and kills his wife. That was taken almost verbatim.

So, I will predict that Kylo killed Rey's mother because Jacen killed Luke's wife.

And of course, they borrowed this from KotOR.

I wish though they would have changed it to this. I always though Revan was better portrayed as a woman.

They should really get one of these. It's a psychopathic shit talking assassin droid disguised as a protocol droid.. Best SW character ever created.

I love that you guys are speaking nerd with me. lol .... it cracks me up. I know, easily amused. Only 78vette, I wish he would post, can out nerd me though.

I'm going and seeing it again on wednesday. Tiff's daughter, fell in love with it. So we just watched the first six. First time she had seen them.

Here's an amazing thing I noticed. During VII she was enthralled with the screen. Big eyes, pure fascination. So she wanted to see the other movies. We started with IV a few days ago. A movie a day. I asked her which order. She said ep.I first. I argued. She won. We talked very little about what to expect and just observed her as she watched. No spoilers!

Ep I, as soon as part one of the movie was over with she lost interest. The minute the blah blah blah started. Ep II, she played with her IPAD, and fell asleep. Ep III she started paying attention half way through and to every action scene and the end and asked questions. Involved again.

Then came ep IV, wide eyed, smiling, laughing and paying attention all the way through. Ep IV, paying attention and pointing out silly stuff, but involved. "Wait, isn't she his sister?" "Gross!" Ep V was complaining about the movie, thinking ewoks are dumb, but involved. A nerd in the making ..

"Truly wonderful a mind of a child is"

I did the full series with Mama Goat last week, and she had never seen the prequels before.

After I and II, both times, she looked at me, and said, "That was awful."

This is a woman who had three strokes.

 

[T.M.P.]

I don't know. I will always see him as a pu$$y because I know Skywalker juniorette is going to kick his ass. Making him the biggest pu$$y in the history of the dark side. I'm sure he will kill millions of faceless beings, but will never shake the pu$$y stigma.

Spoiler: *

in legacy they wrote Jacen as a seriously melodramatic slightly neurotic whiner always questioning his weakness especially with his family, and propensity to the light side, because of them. He then kills Mara Jade, Luke's wife, because only an act that evil will get give him the proper dark side points to achieve his true destiny.

I wonder if they let Rey turn him in this series. In the books she kills him. I'm thinking they'll stay movie canon and have Rey turn him and together they kill Snokes who is the true antagonist.

 

[Zizkov]

Spoiler: *

in legacy they wrote Jacen as a seriously melodramatic slightly neurotic whiner that always questioning his weakness especially with his family, and propensity to the light side, because of them. He then kills Mara Jade, Luke's wife, because only an act that evil will get give him the proper dark side points to achieve his true destiny.

I wonder if they let Rey turn him in this series. In the books she kills him. I'm thinking they'll stay movie canon and have Rey turn him and together they kill Snokes who is the true antagonist.

That would suck. Just let her kill him.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Spoiler: *

in legacy they wrote Jacen as a seriously melodramatic slightly neurotic whiner that always questioning his weakness especially with his family, and propensity to the light side, because of them. He then kills Mara Jade, Luke's wife, because only an act that evil will get give him the proper dark side points to achieve his true destiny.

I wonder if they let Rey turn him in this series. In the books she kills him. I'm thinking they'll stay movie canon and have Rey turn him and together they kill Snokes who is the true antagonist.

If Abrams has his way...

Spoiler: Not sure about that...

He said in one interview somewhere that the significance of the bridge was that Kylo was fully evil now. No good left in him. He didn't explicitly say unredeemable, but compared to Vader's story, I think he might have been hinting that no, in fact, he will not be turned back at the end.

 

[C-$]

If Abrams has his way...

Spoiler: Not sure about that...

He said in one interview somewhere that the significance of the bridge was that Kylo was fully evil now. No good left in him. He didn't explicitly say unredeemable, but compared to Vader's story, I think he might have been hinting that no, in fact, he will not be turned back at the end.

Good.