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'Star Wars'......

If Abrams has his way...

He said in one interview somewhere that the significance of the bridge was that Kylo was fully evil now. No good left in him. He didn't explicitly say unredeemable, but compared to Vader's story, I think he might have been hinting that no, in fact, he will not be turned back at the end.
I know I'm getting sick of this, so everyone has long been sick of it, but that's EXACTLY the reasoning Jaina kills Jacen, instead of turning him, after killing Mara Jade he becomes unredeemable and has the full power of the dark side. Jesus JJ, you have no fking pride.
 
I know I'm getting sick of this, so everyone has long been sick of it, but that's EXACTLY the reasoning Jaina kills Jacen, instead of turning him, after killing Mara Jade he becomes unredeemable and has the full power of the dark side. Jesus JJ, you have no fking pride.
Okay, now you're turning into a bitchy woman.
 
Okay, now you're turning into a bitchy woman.
But come on... every time someone mentions a plot point that I haven't heard, and that isn't EPIV or V or VI redone, it's directly from the Legacy of the Force series. Almost verbatim.

It's like he put Stairway to Heaven's solo on top of Wish You Were Here's chord progression. Or had King Arthur take a ring to Mordor. Or drew a Banana on Starry Night.

There is no other art medium where a person would so blatantly trace like this and it be acceptable. Filmmakers have no pride. I know guys that wrote Modules for SW RPG games that showed more creativity and storytelling integrity than this.
 
But come on... every time someone mentions a plot point that I haven't heard, and that isn't EPIV or V or VI redone, it's directly from the Legacy of the Force series. Almost verbatim.

It's like he put Stairway to Heaven's solo on top of Wish You Were Here's chord progression. Or had King Arthur take a ring to Mordor. Or drew a Banana on Starry Night.

There is no other art medium where a person would so blatantly trace like this and it be acceptable. Filmmakers have no pride. I know guys that wrote Modules for SW RPG games that showed more creativity and storytelling integrity than this.
No other medium? Really? Didn't Adele win awards for rewriting "Lady Madonna" a few years ago?
 
I have a question for both of you at the end of this .. but hear me out.

As a story telling vehicle many writers of film, stage, and book use characters, plot lines, story, scenes, etc from their favorite sources, be it book, film, friends. Whatever. Tarantino as an example.

What I learned in screenwriting class was when done consciously, the reasoning was that every detail was pre-filled, so it helped creatively to use, borrow, steal. It's very common. In any medium. Robert Jordan wrote a whole series of books based solely on this method. I don't know if, it, the technique, method, has a name. Goat?

Of course it's also done subconsciously - because we only know how to play what we've already heard.

Star Wars the original was also written in this manner. IV especially. that's why IV was such a great story, even if it was weaker film. it's thee story, using regurgitated material from multiple, unrelated, sources superimposed on Campbell's path and set in space.

Okay, in IV, we have a prewritten path that has been used countless times. On top of that was a character from Once Upon a Time in the West, mixed with a Samurai Warlord. A young King Arthur. Merlin mixed with a Monk. With scenes like the trench run borrowed from a WW2 movie about British dambusters, R2 and C3P0 as the peasants in Hidden Fortress, etc etc etc etc ...

So, that, to me is okay. Part of normal creative process.

In this movie we have characters from Star Wars books superimposed on top of Star Wars IV. I get what he did, I really do. I just don't like it. Do you? It's supposed to be the next in a series. It would be comparable to Martin releasing his next book and having characters from Dunk and Egg at the Blue (not Red) Wedding.

Also, credit or mention to/of the original writers would be, ugh, nice. That was weak.

As a film, this was the best of the whole series. It's better than V. Technically. Best acting by far. Cinematography Kurosawa would like. Art design was perfect. Except the one CGI character. The story is really good too, as good as IV, because well, it was good the first time I saw it, but it truly is a tracing.

If there is no real truly original content, especially in terms of plot and story arcs, to dislike "tracing" seems like wasted effort. Movies, especially the ease to which they are cut, allows a time shifting, which oddly enough Rian Johnson damn near perfected in Looper, but beyond that characterization and relationships are more important to me than plot. The plot still has to be good, even if it's a regurgitation.

The plot might become plug and play, but it's Star Wars. To some extent, it is formulaic, and is that what canon is all about anyway? With the prequels, they were so badly directed and acted, it's what ruined it.

We can discuss Star Wars without worrying about spoiling it here:
http://hoosierhoopsreport.com/ipboard/
 
Note: TMP and I are discussing major spoilers here. Do not read our conversation if you haven't seen the film. You've been warned.
Here's the thing about borrowing. It's always going to happen, consciously, subconsciously, or even accidentally. In all of storytelling, be it stage, film, or written word, there is ultimately only one plot: protagonist solves a problem and grows as a result. Every single story ever told is a variation on that plot. So when you call VII a tracing of IV, part of what you're saying is simply this: they are both stories.

Now, Abrams and Kasdan certainly looked back to the original trilogy for inspiration. The similarities go beyond the basics. There are connections in the details, as well. And some of those details I think go too far. I could have done without the Starkiller Base. I really thought that whole part of the plot was lazy.

But there are other similarities that were always going to happen naturally, especially when you expand your body of comparison to the EU. Han and Leia's child as the antagonist? At first blush, that might also seem lazy, but if you think about it further, you realize there was no other option. Just as people who read the novels (NB: I'm not one of them) should have seen it coming with Jacen, and should have accepted it was inevitable, moviegoers should recognize that Abrams had no choice. The Stars Wars universe as it was already constructed left no other believable option. The scene with Han and Kylo on the bridge was written the moment Han said, "Either I'm going to kill her, or I'm beginning to like her," and it was carved in stone when Yoda said, "There is another." It was already there; Abrams and Kasdan just had to find it.

A lot of writing is more a type of exploration and discovery than it is construction and design. Writers who try to force the story into what they think it should be usually produce crap. Writers who let the world they've created (or been handed, in this case) grow organically, and simply attempt to seek out where the story itself wants to unfold, usually produce gold.

EDIT: On a related note, it's also worth remembering that epic tales often include this type of repetition. Part of it is the human desire to seek patterns, I'm sure, but whatever it is, it's perfectly natural for any world history - real or fictional - to repeat itself. Remember your Karl Marx.

So, I do think there are some details that are worthy of criticism - like Starkiller. But, for the most part, criticizing the film for it's thematic and story similarities to IV is a fool's task. Any good story was going to have similarities to be found. Instead, I think the film should be judged on its own merits, in which case it should definitely be ranked up there with IV and V.

If the story works, I don't think it's lazy. There is almost a reorganization of the characters. For example, Han is Rey's mentor, but for where her path appears to be heading, Han could only take her so far. So it was OK, in regard, for him to die. In EP4 and 5, even though Obi Wan was dead, he was still guiding Luke. We won't get that with Han.

The motivation of Anakin (EP1), Luke (EP4) and Rey are very different for how they finally accept the path they're told they're destined to go down. Each are reluctant, but each become immersed differently. Anakin is the "chosen one" and pushed out the door by his mother. Luke has nowhere else to go because his only known guardians are slaughtered. Rey is pulled in by accepting the task of delivering BB-8, and even though she bolts at the very end, she is cornered into it by Kylo.

For Anakin and Luke, it really plays into their development throughout their journey, and Rey, who is essentially leaving a home where she was waiting for her parents to return, essentially had to leave to get to where she wanted to be.
 
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If the story works, I don't think it's lazy. There is almost a reorganization of the characters. For example, Han is Rey's mentor, but for where her path appears to be heading, Han could only take her so far. So it was OK, in regard, for him to die. In EP4 and 5, even though Obi Wan was dead, he was still guiding Luke. We won't get that with Han.

The motivation of Anakin (EP1), Luke (EP4) and Rey are very different for how they finally accept the path they're told they're destined to go down. Each are reluctant, but each become immersed differently. Anakin is the "chosen one" and pushed out the door by his mother. Luke has nowhere else to go because his only known guardians are slaughtered. Rey is pulled in by accepting the task of delivering BB-8, and even though she bolts at the very end, she is cornered into it by Kylo.

For Anakin and Luke, it really plays into their development throughout their journey, and Rey, who is essentially leaving a home where she was waiting for her parents to return, essentially had to leave to get to where she wanted to be.
The parts I'd consider lazy are the parts that didn't work. They were just filler. Again, the Starkiller base. The Death Star was a pretty silly plot device to begin with, and it was stupid as hell when they built a second one in VI. Using it a third time was...lazy. That's the only way to put it.

And destroying the New Republic? We didn't even get to meet the New Republic. I completely understand why Abrams wanted to avoid the political intrigue - that was part of what ruined the prequels. But what a lame way to do it. There's never going to be an Episode 6.5, which means the New Republic is now a myth, just like the first Republic was in the original film. We're never going to learn anything about it. It only existed because 1) VI implied it would, which couldn't be ignored, and 2) it was a handy sacrificial lamb to show how evil the First Order is. But that laziness really dampens the impact. "Oh no, the First Order destroyed all these extras that I never learned anything about and therefore don't care about." Lame.

But, as a whole, I do think the movie worked. I loved it. I'm just nitpicking to throw TMP a bone.
 
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Just took Jr to see it, he is now hooked. We will now commence with the first six so he learns the story.
 
That dude needs punched in the kidneys.
He's not wrong. I really enjoyed the movie, but it was made to make boatloads of money and so Disney could create merchandise to make even more money.

Disney knows how to ring the cash register.
 
He's not wrong. I really enjoyed the movie, but it was made to make boatloads of money and so Disney could create merchandise to make even more money.

Disney knows how to ring the cash register.

I agree, he's not completely wrong and as I wrote to TMP a few days back, this is about money.

As I also said, this was about setting up the rest of the story for a new generation (again about money). After taking my 10 year old to see ti today, I would say it's working. My son loved it in the same way I loved episode 4 as a 9 year old.

It's all about money, but at least we got a really good movie to watch and hopefully the next two are as well made with a great story line. This was the easy one to make, the next two will be much more difficult.
 
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The guy is a business columnist who probably thought Star Wars was an original story. I don't buy the tracer issue as a complaint in the least. It's not truly legitimate because Star Wars didn't tell an original story. It did have an original setting with great character development. The Force Awakens doesn't have the advantage of being the first real action adventure, but the character development is certainly there, and they also did a great job of opening up a lot of different angles for storylines, whether they be part of the main story arc or as part of the anthology movies.

I'm tending to believe people who have deep criticisms of TFA are down about it because it wasn't revolutionary. That cat was out of the bag in 1977.
 
The guy is a business columnist who probably thought Star Wars was an original story. I don't buy the tracer issue as a complaint in the least. It's not truly legitimate because Star Wars didn't tell an original story. It did have an original setting with great character development. The Force Awakens doesn't have the advantage of being the first real action adventure, but the character development is certainly there, and they also did a great job of opening up a lot of different angles for storylines, whether they be part of the main story arc or as part of the anthology movies.

I'm tending to believe people who have deep criticisms of TFA are down about it because it wasn't revolutionary. That cat was out of the bag in 1977.
Embrace the Tracer's mediocrity...
 
Some people just aren't happy unless they're wallowing in shit.

And some people have the ability to actually draw something instead of laying a transparency over it and TRACING it.

JJ is a fking TRACER and so's his Mother!
 
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NSFW ... reminder Lando was a traitor to Han, Finn is a traitor to the Empire.


Question:

About Finn and the light saber. IS there more to Finn then meets the eye? Can any schlep use a light saber or do you need some connection to the force?

Could a plebe like C-$ use one if he found it? Or does Finn have some sort of connection to the force like a decendent of Mace Windu.
 
Question:

About Finn and the light saber. IS there more to Finn then meets the eye? Can any schlep use a light saber or do you need some connection to the force?

Could a plebe like C-$ use one if he found it? Or does Finn have some sort of connection to the force like a decendent of Mace Windu.

I'd love to light saber your ass.
 
I'm sorry you hated the movie.





:)
I'm sorry you can't separate and understand the difference between like and competency, they are seldom relative. Especially with you. You're probably a tracer too.. lol
 
Question:

About Finn and the light saber. IS there more to Finn then meets the eye? Can any schlep use a light saber or do you need some connection to the force?

Could a plebe like C-$ use one if he found it? Or does Finn have some sort of connection to the force like a decendent of Mace Windu.

I think anyone can pick one up, except beings like Jar Jar and C-$ but it would be tough not to poke your own eye out. Those things are dangerous. vbg
 
Star Wars traced The Godfather. There, I said it.
You mean copied. There's been very few actual tracings in film and those are mostly redo. Hell, Italian Job, Mission Impossible, Ocean's Eleven weren't as much of a tracing of the original as this last movie.
 
Is Snork, Darth Plagueis?
Many think so. I'm not sure. He didn't look Muun enough, but that could be disfigurement

San_Hill_SW-1450823644.jpg
 
Is Snork, Darth Plagueis?
We aren't even hiding spoilers anymore, are we?

Here's something to consider:

1. Plagueis had the ability to manipulate midichlorians to create life.
2. Anakin was conceived by midichlorians.
3. Snoke is Plagueis.
4. The entire saga, including the very existence of the Skywalkers, is all part of Snoke's master plan.
 
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Question:

About Finn and the light saber. IS there more to Finn then meets the eye? Can any schlep use a light saber or do you need some connection to the force?

Could a plebe like C-$ use one if he found it? Or does Finn have some sort of connection to the force like a decendent of Mace Windu.
My sons and I have been talking about Finn and Rey handling the light saber. Rey has no training,but has the force. Finn has the training to do combat,but no force ability. Therefore this is why Finn almost died and Rey actually held her own. We are also seeing that Ben is not that good at using the force yet. It was stated that he needed more training. Btw, did you and others on here know that the actor who played Ben went to school in Mishawaka? I thought it was a cool tie to the Hoosier state.
 
My sons and I have been talking about Finn and Rey handling the light saber. Rey has no training,but has the force. Finn has the training to do combat,but no force ability. Therefore this is why Finn almost died and Rey actually held her own. We are also seeing that Ben is not that good at using the force yet. It was stated that he needed more training. Btw, did you and others on here know that the actor who played Ben went to school in Mishawaka? I thought it was a cool tie to the Hoosier state.

You guys sure did a swell job of picking up on the basic plot lines.
 
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The only thing about Finn that I enjoyed and thought was smart to do was he gave a human element to stormtroopers. That's it. In all the movies the stormtroopers are faceless, drone like servants who become major collateral damage.

It was nice to see a perspective from the Stormtrooper.

Ya know Billy Dee is supposedly going to be in future films...please, please, PLEASE don't make Finn his lost son. Keep the family mystery to Ray.

Also there are strong rumors that Hayden Christianson will be making an appearance in future films. Probably for flashbacks but...not sure how I feel about that.

I still think Rey a Skywalker, from Luke but I like the Annikan reincarnation theory especially if Plaugeus is a certain CGI character.

I wouldn't say these are 'spoilers' since we're just guessing.
 
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