so did the rules officials rule it a violation or not?
when not in a sand trap, can grains of sand be considered loose impediments?
when not in a sand trap, can grains of sand be considered loose impediments?
I think he should be disqualified from the tournament and removed from the President's Cup team. When a golfer cheats, it tells you a great deal about his character.
Years ago, I was playing in the final round of the club championship at a course in Seymour. I was leading the first flight by two strokes with three holes to play and hit a great drive on the 16th hole.
The golfer, who was two strokes behind me, then hit his drive into a hazard and I thought I had just won my flight. When he reached his ball, it was playable because it wasn't in the water even though it was in the hazard. He then proceeded to remove objects that were in his way, pull weeds and ground his club before hitting the ball.
I discreetly mentioned to our other two opponents that we needed to assess him penalty strokes, but they refused to do it. He then put his second shot on the green.
Obviously disgusted by the incident, I hit a bad second shot and wound up taking a double bogey on the hole. Meanwhile, he parred it to tie me. He then wound up beating me by a stroke for the title.
That wasn't the first time I had seen the guy cheat while playing golf with him. He frequently improved his lies in our weekend events even though we were playing the ball down.
you were a sore loser.
not everyone knows every rule.
i played for yrs before i knew you couldn't ground your club anywhere other than a sand trap. but that was long ago, pre golf channel and endless coverage.
fact is, i didn't even know "hazard" was a legal term with rules implications. i thought it just was a descriptive term for a place you didn't want to be.
guys i played with, (who were regular players), didn't know it either.
that said, you could have assessed him a penalty and explained why, but instead tried to get someone else to do it for you.
you got beat. blame yourself.
Not knowing the rules isn't an excuse--especially in the club championship. I merely wanted to make sure the other two golfers were going to support me if I called a rules violation on him. When I realized they weren't going to back me up, I decided not to call it on him.
Your
You’re full of it. Anyone playing in a club tournament should know the rule McNutt described as being broke!
You’re full of it. Anyone playing in a club tournament should know the rule McNutt described as being broke!
if you think everyone who plays in a club tourney knows every rule, you're living in your own universe.
It’s not every rule. This is the most simple rule in golf. If I were playing with McNutt I would have called the penalty.
The universe I live in, we call our penalties in our every day game.
Ignorance is no excuse for rule or law breaking. I’m glad he was assessed a penalty for such an egregious offense. He shouldn’t be allowed on the PGA tour, and needs to retire...dws
Sounds like you need to work on the psychological side of the game. #howtofaceadversityandstillcomeoutontop
Yep, before the rule changes for 2019 it was very simple. Don’t touch anything in a hazard.
There are some rules of golf that can be difficult. Not the breach McNutt described.
you must live in a Victoria National bubble.
the non Victoria National golf world is full of players who wouldn't know that rule, nor could they tell you the difference between a lateral and a water hazard, nor would they know the legal difference between a red and a yellow line.
that said, i have to question if the Seymour course had the hazard lines marked at all, (i'd be willing to bet they didn't), as the overwhelming vast majority of courses don't, and if not, if you're not in the water most would play it as not in the hazard. (and many would play it as not in the hazard if not in the water, since they don't even know the rule exists anyway).
and neither of the other 2 guys in the group were sure enough it was a violation to the point of calling him on it.
that tells me they either didn't think/know for sure he was in the hazard, or more likely, didn't know the rule and didn't know what the heck McNutt was talking about.
i realize rules are far more known than back in the day due to how golf is covered now, but lots of casual golfers even now who don't watch tons of golf on tv, wouldn't know that rule.
You just want to argue. Play the damn rules if you’re playing in the club tournament. Any golfer that’s staying in the dry pond bed inside the water hazard knows the rule. He ignored it.
that doesn't mean he knew the rule. not everyone is as rules knowledgeable as you.
and how many yrs ago was this?
that said, if you were so sure he violated the rule, then you should have explained the rule and called him on it.
you didn't, so it's on you. it was years ago. get over it, you got beat.
your assuming that doesn't make it so.
like i said. you must live in a Victoria National bubble.
If he took the penalty, it isn’t cheating.
If he tried to get away with touching the sand with no penalty, it is.
I didn’t see it so I don’t know.
I know he was accused of cheating in college, left Georgia unliked by his teammates, went to Augusta State, and was so disliked by some teammates they told Oklahoma State players they hoped they beat him in NCAA tourney matches. And he is estranged from his own family - as in ”don’t come to the course - don’t call me - won’t see you at Christmas.” Hard to judge who is in the wrong there, but it’s ugly.
The better question is if it’s one or two penalties - grounding the club AND improving the lie.
Here’s a toughie - you hit your ball into a tree with low branches, say a pine tree. You scootch into the tree to punch it out as best you can. To make the shot, you basically bend a branch with your body, backing into it so you can set you feet, but definitely moving the branch, bending it out of its natural position. Is that a penalty? I never imagined that was a penalty, but it counts as improving your lie (according to the scoundrels I use to play with).
I got a huge client once because the other lawyer playing with us cheated. I was tagging along in the other cart with the guy who invited me, and his new boss came driving up in his cart saying “did you see that sumbitch cheat? He kicked his ball out of the rough 8 feet!”
They hired me the next day.
Best 98 I ever shot.
If he tried to get away with touching the sand with no penalty, it is.
I didn’t see it so I don’t know.
I know he was accused of cheating in college, left Georgia unliked by his teammates, went to Augusta State, and was so disliked by some teammates they told Oklahoma State players they hoped they beat him in NCAA tourney matches. And he is estranged from his own family - as in ”don’t come to the course - don’t call me - won’t see you at Christmas.” Hard to judge who is in the wrong there, but it’s ugly.
The better question is if it’s one or two penalties - grounding the club AND improving the lie.
Here’s a toughie - you hit your ball into a tree with low branches, say a pine tree. You scootch into the tree to punch it out as best you can. To make the shot, you basically bend a branch with your body, backing into it so you can set you feet, but definitely moving the branch, bending it out of its natural position. Is that a penalty? I never imagined that was a penalty, but it counts as improving your lie (according to the scoundrels I use to play with).
I got a huge client once because the other lawyer playing with us cheated. I was tagging along in the other cart with the guy who invited me, and his new boss came driving up in his cart saying “did you see that sumbitch cheat? He kicked his ball out of the rough 8 feet!”
They hired me the next day.
Best 98 I ever shot.
Geez it’s no bubble to play golf by the rules. Every one of my buddies I play golf with, I know I don’t have to follow them around to make sure they don’t bump there ball up to a good lie or cheat in any other way. We all have integrity and follow the rules. We’ve all called penalties on ourselves when no one else knew a rule was breached. You ask me that’s pretty cool.
I've penalized myself when I have missed a ball on a shot when I had no backswing. I also assessed myself a penalty for double-hitting the ball on a chip out of the rough during our city tournament one year. The other guys in my group told me not to worry about it, but I insisted on calling the penalty on myself. It was on the first hole, so it was a terrible start for me.
that's great and all, but it had absolutely zero to do with my pointing out that many golfers don't know every rule pertaining to lateral hazards.
Your first two sentences aren't mutually exclusive. I believe he was assessed a penalty, and didn't score it that way himself, so I'd say trying to cheat but getting caught is still cheating, but he didn't "take" the penalty; there was no choice. And to your second sentence, yes, I believe he was trying to get away with it. I watched some commentary on it the next day, and think the color guy was Azinger, but it was somewhat funny listening to him trying to avoid saying "you f'n liar!!!!" as he was trying to dance around the fact that Reed claimed he didn't know he moved sand in that back swing... TWICE! I've tried to give Reed the benefit of the doubt because he's American I suppose and is one of the few golfers we have that actually shows some gumption and emotion in the Ryder Cup, but to me there's no doubt he was trying to cheat. My British friend and his buddies call him "Fatprick Reed".
grounding your club, and pulling grass out of a hazard is certainly one of the very basic rules of golf. That being said, McNutt should have called him on it. I absolutely would have. If he didn't like it? Tough. It is a penalty, and an obvious one at that.
one could legitimately say every rule is a "basic" rule.
i've never commented on how "basic" a rule is or isn't. just how well known by Joe Casualgolfer.
and where one can or can't ground a club, other than in a sand trap, would not be high on the list of rules casual golfers know.
that's all i've said on the matter.. and if you think casual players all know that, you don't play with casual players much.
this whole discussion has gotten beyond absurd.
This is why I stopped playing actual golf and now only participate in scrambles. I'm sure it's cost me business, but I don't have to deal with this.
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