Mental prep, some of that is on Archie. Without question.
The biggest issue this team had was leadership. And it absolutely killed them.
Meeting of the Negative Nancy Club.
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Mental prep, some of that is on Archie. Without question.
The biggest issue this team had was leadership. And it absolutely killed them.
Agreed...had they had a leader, many of the issues could have been minimized.
Is that on the coach? The players? I can make a case for either/both.
Spot on - and, partly, why I don't hold Archie totally accountable. He's had one full recruiting cycle of HIS recruits.
Once your guys are the core of the team (which is what next year will be for the most part) it's on you. Even guys like Smith & Green are now on him, because if you didn't believe you could turn them around you had the chance to send them packing.
The coach needs to set the expectation.
Having not been there every day, I wonder if guys like Moore and Forrester not playing was part of that effort by Archie to do so - if they weren't giving in practice what he wanted, he wasn't going to give PT.
Really interested to see what this year brings.
At a program like Indiana....the program expectations are already set. The coach needs to find a way to motivate and lead the players to reach those expectations. The players need to understand the work and effort needed to reach those expectations.
It's partially why people grilled Mike Davis for his "if we win at home and split on the road, we'll be fine" comment. No....the expectation at Indiana is that you go out and win...regardless of home or away.
Now realistically is what Davis said wrong? No....but you cant make that an expectation because then players are ok with dropping a game here or there, because the coach has set the expectation it is ok to lose.
Yep
Got to meet Mike several times, a really nice guy. And not a BAD coach, but no way near prepared enough to handle the pressures of coaching IU.
Sometimes during the season I was ticked at Archie for not benching Smith. If he had I'd have been ok with the losses, but I'm not so sure others would have been. To some we win and the coach is great; we don't, and the coach sucks. And both could be entirely wrong.
I agree with your expectations. But I also try to keep in mind this program has been so mismanaged for so long, it will take some time to get the culture to where it needs to be. That's one of the reasons Michigan St. overcame the loss of Langford to get to the Final Four (having Cassius Winston helped, too
).Remember Luck's 1st 3 years with the Colts? Got in the postseason and advanced a little further in the playoffs every year, culminating in the deflate-gate game. So many thought the following year they might challenge to go to the Super Bowl (Mike Greenberg made them his pick).
But that team was not built to win. It got in the playoffs every year because of a weak AFC South. Go back and look at their results - every time they played a team that could smack you in the mouth instead of finesse, they lost (sometimes big). Once Luck was injured, it wasn't a bit surprising how they imploded.
I like Archie's approach: take care of the ball, attack inside, play solid D. Still not sure if the packline is the best defense, but with the right personnel playing it (and committed to it - something we haven't had totally yet) it could be the basis for sustained success. Tony Bennett just won a championship with it, so who knows.
I think we'll know our answer on if Archie is the guy by the end of this next season - or at least have a better clue than we do now.
Whoohoo! Almost made the tournament ! I smell an extension!
I think a good team would have both. IU has been missing a player leader since Yogi graduated. Miller didn't do a very good job of it from the bench last season, in particular during the losing streak. I'm hopeful he can learn from that but he also doesn't seem to have the personality type to get players fired up.
For those that remember seeing Miller play in college, what was his leadership style as a player? Was he vocal or more of a lead by example type? Or was he not a team leader even as a PG? How about his coaching leadership style at Dayton? Was it similar to what we're seeing here?
Leadership—is that a codeword for making the ball go through the hoop? Poor shooting is what characterized Indiana, including free throws.
Leadership is what allows teams to overcome deficiencies. Everyone being on the same page - which is critical when you are running a defense like the packline.
Not sure how else I can explain it. If you've been a part of a team (sports or otherwise), you'll understand just how critical leadership is.
No - an extension isn't necessary. Nor is firing a coach after only 2 years when significant injuries helps derail a promising season.
I'm not calling for the coach to be fired, just held accountable. Did injuries play a part? Sure, but they were far from the only reason the team was terrible. Injuries, leadership, heart, effort, coaching, they all factor in.
Romeo and Juwan were on the court all year, Davis played in 31 games. Stop using injuries the outrighr excuse for the team performing poorly. Making the tournament at IU should be the baseline, there's nothing wrong with those expectations. I hope Archie will live up to them moving forward.
It took A LOT to miss the tournament with the talent we had last year. Probably one of the most talented teams all time not to make the dance.
Have you only been following college basketball for 6 months? UCLA missed the tournament this year despite having four 5* recruits and a plethora of top 100 players. IU had two top 100 players this year.
I imagine USC, Texas, and Arizona could be lumped in that group also
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They all could, that would be correct. Indiana wasn't even the most talented team to not make the tournament this year, let alone all time. FPeaugh at it again
Okay, but to verify that injuries had little effect, let me break a few of your fingers and see if you can type as effectively. You know, for science..
Again, I ask - who is the team with a comparable roster to 2018-19 Indiana (in terms of talent AND experience) who sustained the same amount of injuries as IU did and still made the NCAA Tournament?
Do I think Archie could have done (and needs to do) better? Absolutely - but injuries played a significant role in last year's fortunes. You say no - fine, please provide the team that overcame all of that. Been asking since the end of the season, but for some reason NO ONE can provide an answer. Should be easy to do IF teams overcome such things all the time . . .
Ive asked, and linked the games played by each player, as to what significant injuries did IU face that you claim are so much different than any other program in the history of college basketball...
1 - Phinisee’s concussion...
Im done.
How about Hunter not being able to play a single minute last year?
How about Davis rushing back from Achiles surgery in less than a year? Davis missed 5 games last year but was playing at about 50% up until early February.
How about Race Thompson being unavailable for all but 9 games? Race Thompson ended up playing more minutes than Moore and Forrester who were healthy all year who were our primary interior options for 75% of the season.
How about Green missing 5 out of the first 6 games with a groin injury including Arkansas on the road where Damezi was the first guard off the bench and played 26 minutes? Also served a 3 game suspension during a crucial 3 game stretch where they went 0-3 against Northwestern, Michigan and Rutgers. Can't tell me Green couldn't have been used in the Northwestern and Rutgers games where Northwestern and Rutgers went on 20+--0 runs.
All these impacted Indiana because they couldn't find any kind of consistent lineup. They had different guys unavailable almost every game and never could put together a fluid lineup.
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Lol...you’re using players who played in games and including them in your injury excuse. Also, I provided MSU. Also, a poster claimed Bennett’s 3rd year Virginia was down to 7 scholarship players. I think Archie made the tourney at Dayton with 7 scholarship players. At least that’s what the fanboys love to tout when they get excited about him.
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MSU missed games estimated minutes lost.
Langford 26 games. x 30 minutes 750
Ward 5 games x 20 minutes 100
McQuaid 3 games. x 30 minutes. 90
IU missed games .
Hunter 35 games x 20 min? 700
Thompson 25 games x 10 min 250
Durham 1 game x 25 min 25
Phinisee 3 games x 25 min 75
Davis 5 games x 15 min 75
McBob 9 games x 15 min 135
Romeo 3 games x 35 min 105
Estimated minutes lost..
MSU 940 of 7800 or 12%
IU 1,365 of 7000 or 20%.
Edit: I forgot about Devonte. Easy to do with so many players missing games. 4 games 25 minutes per. 7 games if we're counting suspension.
Giving us a total of 1465 of 7000 or 21%. Almost doubling MSU missed minutes.
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I just wanted to make sure you actually KNEW what you were talking about this time.
Since that's done, you're dismissed ..
I was actually referencing an earlier conversation with Taz where I agreed that IU missed more minutes. Nice to see you can count (besides missing Ahrens who missed 9 games).
The next step in the comparison is to figure out if losing starters impacts teams more than guys who rarely play. Also, you might want to think about how good the starter is. After you have done that look at their ending records and compare to expectations.
One team won the Big Ten and made the Final Four. The other team ended the year getting the shocker in the NIT. I never included the NIT because I don’t give a rats arse about the games. I do appreciate the work though. Thanks for inserting yourself into a conversation and being clueless again.
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Is this a stat that is regularly available going back 20-25 years? I'll look it up if possible, but I won't spend a week on this bs.
Additionally, one thing I have not seen factored in....that this years NCAA field was the shallowest in a long time. At least that was what all the experts were saying. In fact, it was a common opinion on this board, myself included, that IU's record , as well as this team, were not deserving of an NCAA invite. Yet most had us in, until we lost miserably against OSU. So....the bottom line is that this team did not rise to the occasion, even given all the injuries.
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No one is counting the NIT either. But IU was without key player(s) in more than 50% of their conference games and that doesn’t even include Jerome Hunter. Had IU had a fully healthy core group in possibly just one B10 game it arguably is the difference between making and missing the tournament, the benchmark you’ve set for crucifying Archie. Multiply that x 10 or 11 and IU is likely dancing.
De’Ron Davis came back from Achilles surgery in less than 9 months. That’s almost unheard of. Kevin Durant the same injury and will likely be out for 12+ months. It’s evident Davis was rushed back from injury due to Thompson and Hunter not being able to play and with Archie not feeling confident in Moore, Fitzner, and Forreter being the primary interior options off the bench. In Davis’ first 16 games, he averaged < 10 mpg and < 4 ppg. There was a 7 game stretch where IU went 0-7 starting from the game at Michigan ending with the loss at Rutgers where Davis had 4 DNP and played a combined 11 minutes in the other 3 contests. IU effectively shut down Davis for about 2.5 weeks and he came back and played 25 minutes scoring 12 points in a win at MSU. From there on out to conclude the end of the regular season, Davis averaged 19.5 mpg and averaged just shy of 9.5 ppg. If you don’t see how monumental that is when your primary options off the bench are Moore, Fitzner, and Forrester, I can’t help you.
Not having Green at Arkansas in a 1 point loss was huge, especially when Anderson plays 26 minutes. When that games it’s a Q1 road win and likely pushes IU in the tournament. There was a 3 game stretch where both Davis and Green were out, those by far and away were our 2 best rotation players off the bench. There was a stretch spanning 3 halves where the Indiana bench scored 8 points in 60 minutes. Again that’s monumental.
Someone like Race Thompson comes back after missing nearly 20 games and ends up taking minutes from Forrester/Fitzner/Moore and IU goes 4-2 down the stretch to end the regular season. Not having Thompson or Hunter play, let alone develop throughout the course of the year is monumental.
Again, injuries weren’t everything, there was obviously some major internal issues in the locker room, but if you look at how many guys missed so many games and realize IU more than likely misses the dance by 1 game it’s easier to understand how injuries impacted this year.
fwiw - more harmful were all the injuries early in the season. While a majority of teams were building chemistry and continuously adding new sets and wrinkles in practice, we were running a patchwork team of players being in and out and keeping it simple. It's tough to build timing and synergy and team play with those circumstances especially at this level.. Most teams eventually catch up, as things settle down. We couldn't because we had continued injuries.
Imagine a band where the bass player changes weekly, no matter how good the singer or guitarist is, it will most often sound like shit.
We didn’t lose our 2 top players at all. Davis played 30 games. Phinisee maybe missed 2-3 losses.
It’s more like you got a 30 second hand cramp and told your boss you couldn’t type for a day.
Did I tell you you could speak to me? No I did not. So why are you?
Go eat some pudding and take a nap, gimp.
This is so dumb. Hunter hasn’t played a minute and you think he’s playing 20 min per game????
Thompson at 10? Did you see him play?
McBob?
Again...McBob?
MSU missed legitimate starters for big parts of the year. Get a clue.
Davis played the first two-thirds of the season on one foot or none at all. He physically couldn’t play more than 10 mpg. That’s a statistical fact. Had Davis not been rushed back from a devastating injury in less than 9 months due to Hunter and Thompson not being available, it’s very likely Davis is able to play 20-23 games at ~20mpg, instead of only being able to play the last 10 games at 20mpg. Win anyone of those games IU’s in the tournament and you’re forced to give Archie credit for making the tournament while navigating injuries instead of saying injuries didn’t make a difference.
And you’re absolutely a douche bag desperately declaring to be considered credible.
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