MAGA victory thread

[crazed_hoosier2]

Lol so unhinged

I'm never going to rub up too close to Keith Olbermann. He's a total crank -- it's hard to believe he's the same guy I used to love on Sportscenter.

That said....I would very much like to know what happened with these bomb threats. I think it's entirely fair to characterize them as an attempt to influence the election. So, Olbermann might be nuts, but he might not be wrong.

 

[BradStevens]

Like a said to a friend recently, when’s the last time you saw a white guy on a roof.

Me? Artie Lange's dad?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Me? Artie Lange's dad?

Did you see what happened to that man’s face

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Presupposes no spoliation dog

Well, I thought of that.

Wouldn't an order to declassify anything that is classified (which, again, just may well be nothing) make it possible for people with any knowledge of it to speak publicly about what they know?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Thank you....finally somebody has chimed in. I figured you might be the one to do it!

OK, so if you're right (and you might be), then any order Trump issues to declassify any files the FBI (or any other agency) has on Ray Epps would be a moot order. Because, as you say, they have no such file. Order made, nothing comes back.

Doing this would conclusively prove what you're saying. And it would make fools of all the people who have insisted that he was working for the FBI.

But....what if you're not right? And I think you need to consider the possibility that you aren't.

I'm not saying Epps was a plant or CI of some kind. I honestly don't know. I know he denies it. I know the Feds deny it. But none of that conclusively proves anything. Neither does the fact that he was eventually charged with a crime.

I think it would be a healthy exercise for the country for Trump to do this. And it would give you a great opportunity to dunk on all the people here who have sworn that he was a plant.

If it's a dumb conspiracy theory, what would be the problem with proving that it's a dumb conspiracy theory?

Feds and CIs don't get prosecuted and convicted. Epps was prosecuted and convicted. That should definitively have proved he was neither a CI nor Fed to any sane person. Conspiracy theorists are typically not entirely sane so they persist with the conspiracy theory.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Well, I thought of that.

Wouldn't an order to declassify anything that is classified (which, again, just may well be nothing) make it possible for people with any knowledge of it to speak publicly about what they know?

I have no idea

 

[BradStevens]

Thank you....finally somebody has chimed in. I figured you might be the one to do it!

OK, so if you're right (and you might be), then any order Trump issues to declassify any files the FBI (or any other agency) has on Ray Epps would be a moot order. Because, as you say, they have no such file. Order made, nothing comes back.

Doing this would conclusively prove what you're saying. And it would make fools of all the people who have insisted that he was working for the FBI.

But....what if you're not right? And I think you need to consider the possibility that you aren't.

I'm not saying Epps was a plant or CI of some kind. I honestly don't know. I know he denies it. I know the Feds deny it. But none of that conclusively proves anything. Neither does the fact that he was eventually charged with a crime.

I think it would be a healthy exercise for the country for Trump to do this. And it would give you a great opportunity to dunk on all the people here who have sworn that he was a plant.

If it's a dumb conspiracy theory, what would be the problem with proving that it's a dumb conspiracy theory?

It wouldn't conclusively prove it to the people who believe it, though. They'll just claim that the fact nothing was turned over shows how rogue the FBI and CIA actually are, that you can't trust them, and so . . . That is how conspiracy theorists' minds work.

X-Files reboot?

 

[BradStevens]

Did you see what happened to that man’s face

Oh yes. Sad.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Feds and CIs don't get prosecuted and convicted. Epps was prosecuted and convicted. That should definitively have proved he was neither a CI nor Fed to any sane person. Conspiracy theorists are typically not entirely sane so they persist with the conspiracy theory.

It didn't prove it to me. And I'll tell you why.

First, the charge he faced was very minor -- especially considering what he was filmed saying and doing. Compare his crime and sentence to what happened to other people. And no reasonable person can conclude that he was treated on a par with everybody else....especially everybody else who was known to have been a major instigator.

Second, it seems like it took an awfully long time for his indictment to happen. I'm not saying this necessarily means anything. But, again, I'm looking at him not just through the lens of somebody we know was there....but somebody we know was actively instigating people to go into the Capitol.

As such, if he wasn't a CI and there is no file on him, what would be the harm of ordering any such file to be declassified? This isn't a rhetorical question. Wouldn't that be a definitive way to prove what you're saying?

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

It wouldn't conclusively prove it to the people who believe it, though. They'll just claim that the fact nothing was turned over shows how rogue the FBI and CIA actually are, that you can't trust them, and so . . . That is how conspiracy theorists' minds work.

X-Files reboot?

Maybe. But it would go a long way for everybody else -- and for their critics to dunk on them anytime they bring it up.

What about the downside? Is there a downside you see to Trump ordering this? I don't. If nothing exists, then it's a moot issue.

 

[outside shooter]

I would very much like to know what happened with these bomb threats. I think it's entirely fair to characterize them as an attempt to influence the election.

They should be treated seriously. At the same time, the response of encouraging people to come out after the all clear, extending voting hours, and allowing anyone in line at closing time to voted likely dampened the impact

I'm sure, though, that some people were scared off and just said "screw it".

But if it was Russians, there's no way the President-elect will allow any charges to be made. It would made cuddles with Putin awkward.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

It didn't prove it to me. And I'll tell you why.

First, the charge he faced was very minor -- especially considering what he was filmed saying and doing. Compare his crime and sentence to what happened to other people. And no reasonable person can conclude that he was treated on a par with everybody else....especially everybody else who was known to have been a major instigator.

Second, it seems like it took an awfully long time for his indictment to happen. I'm not saying this necessarily means anything. But, again, I'm looking at him not just through the lens of somebody we know was there....but somebody we know was actively instigating people to go into the Capitol.

As such, if he wasn't a CI and there is no file on him, what would be the harm of ordering any such file to be declassified? This isn't a rhetorical question. Wouldn't that be a definitive way to prove what you're saying?

There were far more serious cases to be tried before they got to him. I predicted at the time that he'd be near the end of the line, and he was. Others testified in their trials that Epps told them NOT to go into the capitol. He also did NOT go in. Basically, the guy got cold feet. CIs and Feds NEVER get prosecuted for doing their jobs. It's a fact. You know what will happen if the file is ordered to be declassified (there isn't one) and nothing is opened? The Conspiracy Theorists will claim it as proof that Epps was a fed or CI.

It really is one of the dumbest conspiracy theories I've ever seen.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I am not a Trump fan but I won't speculate on that.
If he releases Epps files he can release Epstein files.
However, I would begin to wonder if Epps shit was opened up but not Epstein.

Well, we know without a shadow of a doubt that Trump had a relationship with Epstein. We do not know very much about the extent or nature of that relationship -- other than what Trump has told us about him being a member at Mar-a-Lago, etc. According to Trump, he distanced himself from Epstein once it became (publicly) known what Epstein was.

To my knowledge, Trump has not been accused by any of the people within the Epstein universe of having been involved with any of the sex trafficking. Neither has Bill Clinton, for that matter.

But I'll tell you something Donald Trump did do. And it may mean absolutely nothing. Or it may well mean something. He nominated Alex Acosta to be his Secretary of Labor. The very same Alex Acosta who let Epstein skate on child sex charges....because he was told (by who?) that Epstein "belonged to intelligence."

It could just be a coincidence. But Acosta had been an assistant US Attorney for the Bush DOJ in Miami when he made the Epstein deal happen. After Obama took office, he became the dean of a Florida law school and apparently focused his attention there on law curriculum dealing with things like money laundering and banking compliance.

Tell me...do you think his professional experience as a prosecutor and financial crimes legal expert lends itself to being the Secretary of Labor? And how did he make it through vetting and confirmation? He resigned soon after the Epstein story got back in the news. But only then did he resign....the Trump transition vetting people knew about his role in the Epstein non-prosecution. I would assume folks on the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee knew about it as well.

 

[stollcpa]

JFC, the solution to illegal immigration is obvious. Jail the people who hire them. Problem solved in a week.

That doesn’t solve the problem. Then we will pay them welfare and lots of free stuff.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

There were far more serious cases to be tried before they got to him. I predicted at the time that he'd be near the end of the line, and he was. Others testified in their trials that Epps told them NOT to go into the capitol. He also did NOT go in. Basically, the guy got cold feet. CIs and Feds NEVER get prosecuted for doing their jobs. It's a fact. You know what will happen if the file is ordered to be declassified (there isn't one) and nothing is opened? The Conspiracy Theorists will claim it as proof that Epps was a fed or CI.

It really is one of the dumbest conspiracy theories I've ever seen.

So...you would oppose Trump doing this because of how the Conspiracy Theorists would react to there being nothing there? That doesn't seem like a very compelling reason to oppose it, Aloha.

You haven't even considered the possibility that you're wrong about it, have you? You're so certain that you're right that the mere prospect that you're not right is beyond consideration.

Look, I want to stress in as clear terms as I can: I do not accept the allegation that Epps was a CI or there on behalf of a public agency of any kind in any capacity. My position on this is and always has been: I do not know.

But for anybody who is so certain there's nothing there to be declassified, there really isn't a good argument for them not to support Trump doing this. And saying "It won't satisfy the nutcases, anyway." doesn't clear the bar. I don't really care about them being satisfied.

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

It's your last two sentences that concern me most moving forward. I don't doubt that mass deportations in some form are coming, but I'm doubtful about a humane approach. And in the numbers Trump's talking about, the cost would be very steep.

What does a “humane” deportation look like?

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

So...you would oppose Trump doing this because of how the Conspiracy Theorists would react to there being nothing there? That doesn't seem like a very compelling reason to oppose it, Aloha.

You haven't even considered the possibility that you're wrong about it, have you? You're so certain that you're right that the mere prospect that you're not right is beyond consideration.

Look, I want to stress in as clear terms as I can: I do not accept the allegation that Epps was a CI or there on behalf of a public agency of any kind in any capacity. My position on this is and always has been: I do not know.

But for anybody who is so certain there's nothing there to be declassified, there really isn't a good argument for them not to support Trump doing this. And saying "It won't satisfy the nutcases, anyway." doesn't clear the bar. I don't really care about them being satisfied.

No. I don't oppose him doing it. I think it's about 100 percent a fact that there is no file and the absence of the file will be "proof" to the conspiracy theorists that their ridiculous conspiracy theory is true. No, I haven't considered that I'm wrong, because CIs and Feds NEVER get prosecuted and convicted for doing their jobs.

I also don't get the overall conspiracy theory. Why is it so important for the MAGAs that there were Feds or CIs in the mob? The criminal rioters were criminal rioters. Period. And with over 1000 plus trials and convictions how is it remotely possible that no Feds or CIs were ever involved in them? No testimony from them and no testimony about them in any of them. I stand by my belief that the conspiracy theories surrounding J6 are among the dumbest in history.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Others testified in their trials that Epps told them NOT to go into the capitol. He also did NOT go in. Basically, the guy got cold feet.

But we have him on video saying the exact opposite. Multiple times. You've seen that clip, haven't you?

That would make it seem to me that he would be a pretty top target for prosecutors. Wouldn't they want to prioritize going after anybody who had anything to do with instigating the breach?

It may also be true that he told somebody else not to. But it doesn't negate what we see and hear on the video. It's not like it was a doctored video.

 

[IUINSB]

Well, we know without a shadow of a doubt that Trump had a relationship with Epstein. We do not know very much about the extent or nature of that relationship -- other than what Trump has told us about him being a member at Mar-a-Lago, etc. According to Trump, he distanced himself from Epstein once it became (publicly) known what Epstein was.

To my knowledge, Trump has not been accused by any of the people within the Epstein universe of having been involved with any of the sex trafficking. Neither has Bill Clinton, for that matter.

But I'll tell you something Donald Trump did do. And it may mean absolutely nothing. Or it may well mean something. He nominated Alex Acosta to be his Secretary of Labor. The very same Alex Acosta who let Epstein skate on child sex charges....because he was told (by who?) that Epstein "belonged to intelligence."

It could just be a coincidence. But Acosta had been an assistant US Attorney for the Bush DOJ in Miami when he made the Epstein deal happen. After Obama took office, he became the dean of a Florida law school and apparently focused his attention there on law curriculum dealing with things like money laundering and banking compliance.

Tell me...do you think his professional experience as a prosecutor and financial crimes legal expert lends itself to being the Secretary of Labor? And how did he make it through vetting and confirmation? He resigned soon after the Epstein story got back in the news. But only then did he resign....the Trump transition vetting people knew about his role in the Epstein non-prosecution. I would assume folks on the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee knew about it as well.

No, I don't think that qualified him to be Sec. of Labor. All that stinks to high heaven but doesn't mean Trump was diddling little girls. And as I have stated many times, I'm no fan of Trump.
Mayor Pete's appointment as Transportation Sec. is probably equal to Acosta's. As a resident of So. Bend I thought Pete was a decent mayor, but his only qualification was dropping out of the primary race.

 

[BradStevens]

Well, we know without a shadow of a doubt that Trump had a relationship with Epstein. We do not know very much about the extent or nature of that relationship -- other than what Trump has told us about him being a member at Mar-a-Lago, etc. According to Trump, he distanced himself from Epstein once it became (publicly) known what Epstein was.

To my knowledge, Trump has not been accused by any of the people within the Epstein universe of having been involved with any of the sex trafficking. Neither has Bill Clinton, for that matter.

But I'll tell you something Donald Trump did do. And it may mean absolutely nothing. Or it may well mean something. He nominated Alex Acosta to be his Secretary of Labor. The very same Alex Acosta who let Epstein skate on child sex charges....because he was told (by who?) that Epstein "belonged to intelligence."

It could just be a coincidence. But Acosta had been an assistant US Attorney for the Bush DOJ in Miami when he made the Epstein deal happen. After Obama took office, he became the dean of a Florida law school and apparently focused his attention there on law curriculum dealing with things like money laundering and banking compliance.

Tell me...do you think his professional experience as a prosecutor and financial crimes legal expert lends itself to being the Secretary of Labor? And how did he make it through vetting and confirmation? He resigned soon after the Epstein story got back in the news. But only then did he resign....the Trump transition vetting people knew about his role in the Epstein non-prosecution. I would assume folks on the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee knew about it as well.

The only flaw I see here is the assumption that Trump’s vetting process was competent. Little Trump did in that first transition made much sense.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

The good news is that harris won't be president...ever

The bad news is that Trump won.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

No. I don't oppose him doing it. I think it's about 100 percent a fact that there is no file and the absence of the file will be "proof" to the conspiracy theorists that their ridiculous conspiracy theory is true.

Well, they believe it's true now. So if no file is released and they still believe it's true, then we're still right where we are now.

Besides, as I say, it's not them I'm concerned about. I'm not advocating this to to satisfy them. They may never be satisfied, I agree. But that doesn't mean everybody else can't benefit from it.

You know why? Because our institutions, and the faith people have in them, are in a crisis right now. And that's not good for the country. We have to restore that faith. And I believe strongly this would help.

No, I haven't considered that I'm wrong, because CIs and Feds NEVER get prosecuted and convicted for doing their jobs.

So...you don't think it's possible they could've struck a deal with Epps to do this once he became a cause celebre? I mean, plausible deniability isn't a conspiracy theory thing. It's a real thing.

Having that prosecution of a very light crime would be beneficial in ways for both of them, let's be honest.

Why is it so important for the MAGAs that there were Feds or CIs in the mob?

I'm not a MAGA, I think you know that. But I'm also not virulently anti-MAGA, either. To me, they're no different than any other political group of Americans that I don't always agree with.

But I will say this: it's important to me to know if the FBI had people in there. And I'm not talking about people who were just observing. I'm talking about the prospect of people instigating.

And hopefully you recognize the difference between those two...and also the gravity of that difference.

And with over 1000 plus trials and convictions how is it remotely possible that no Feds or CIs were ever involved in them.

I don't know. Maybe you're entirely right and there were no Fed assets involved in it. I hope you are!

But maybe you're not right. And I think would be a very healthy thing for us to know exactly what happened there, if something did. If it didn't...I'm fine with that. I'll never say another word about it. But their denials don't serve as proof to me. This would.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

But we have him on video saying the exact opposite. Multiple times. You've seen that clip, haven't you?

That would make it seem to me that he would be a pretty top target for prosecutors. Wouldn't they want to prioritize going after anybody who had anything to do with instigating the breach?

It may also be true that he told somebody else not to. But it doesn't negate what we see and hear on the video. It's not like it was a doctored video.

Yes, I saw it. Then he got cold feet and changed his tune. He's not the only one. Others testified in their trial that Epps told them NOT to go in as they got to the Capitol and Epps also didn't go in. After telling others to go in and not going in himself, he became a much lower priority for prosecution just as I said when all this came up. CIs and Feds don't get prosecuted and convicted for doing their jobs. How do you get past that fact? He's just another MAGA dude and the MAGAs turned on him. I personally think MAGA should be ashamed of that.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

I've never advocated or a do-nothing approach to immigration. And for what it's worth Democrats have all acknowledged something needs to be done too.

I think both Democrats and Republicans already agree the southern border needs to be more secure. I actually agree with a lot of your last paragraph. I'm just not sure how the application of all that occurs. I don't trust that the Trump administration won't handle it hamfistedly and f*@k it up.

Tump is going to **** a whole lot of things up.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

The only flaw I see here is the assumption that Trump’s vetting process was competent. Little Trump did in that first transition made much sense.

It was during Trump's vetting process that the quote the Epstein "belonged to Intelligence" originated. They asked him about it. That was his answer.

And, yet, his nomination and confirmation went forward anyway. Not only that, but he served in that office for two years. Only when the Epstein story got hot again and his involvement in the non-prosecution became widely known did he resign.

 

[Ohio Guy]

Tump is going to **** a whole lot of things up.

I totally agree.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

It's your last two sentences that concern me most moving forward. I don't doubt that mass deportations in some form are coming, but I'm doubtful about a humane approach. And in the numbers Trump's talking about, the cost would be very steep.

There won't be any mass deportations. Pubs want this as a problem to run on in 2 years.

Remember the wall and who was going to pay for it? All empty promises.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Yes, I saw it. Then he got cold feet and changed his tune. He's not the only one. Others testified in their trial that Epps told them NOT to go in as they got to the Capitol and Epps also didn't go in. After telling others to go in and not going in himself, he became a much lower priority for prosecution just as I said when all this came up. CIs and Feds don't get prosecuted and convicted for doing their jobs. How do you get past that fact? He's just another MAGA dude and the MAGAs turned on him. I personally think MAGA should be ashamed of that.

The video where he was instigating it should have led to more serious charges than he faced. And him telling anybody else elsewhere that they shouldn't go doesn't mitigate it. Because the people around him when he said what he said may well have acted on his commands.

Anyway, there's no good argument against Trump ordering a declassify on anything Epps related. And I certainly hope he does it. I just think it would be a very healthy exercise for the country.

We have a deep, deep problem with institutional trust. And if the FBI did put somebody there who was instigating people to go into the Capitol -- because Epps very much was doing that -- then it's something the American people ought to know.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Well, they believe it's true now. So if no file is released and they still believe it's true, then we're still right where we are now.

Besides, as I say, it's not them I'm concerned about. I'm not advocating this to to satisfy them. They may never be satisfied, I agree. But that doesn't mean everybody else can't benefit from it.

You know why? Because our institutions, and the faith people have in them, are in a crisis right now. And that's not good for the country. We have to restore that faith. And I believe strongly this would help.



So...you don't think it's possible they could've struck a deal with Epps to do this once he became a cause celebre? I mean, plausible deniability isn't a conspiracy theory thing. It's a real thing.

Having that prosecution of a very light crime would be beneficial in ways for both of them, let's be honest.



I'm not a MAGA, I think you know that. But I'm also not virulently anti-MAGA, either. To me, they're no different than any other political group of Americans that I don't always agree with.

But I will say this: it's important to me to know if the FBI had people in there. And I'm not talking about people who were just observing. I'm talking about the prospect of people instigating.

And hopefully you recognize the difference between those two...and also the gravity of that difference.



I don't know. Maybe you're entirely right and there were no Fed assets involved in it. I hope you are!

But maybe you're not right. And I think would be a very healthy thing for us to know exactly what happened there, if something did. If it didn't...I'm fine with that. I'll never say another word about it. But their denials don't serve as proof to me. This would.

I don't get the need to address obviously ridiculous conspiracy theories. The 9/11 Truther Conspiracy Theories were debunked in an outstanding study and article done by Popular Mechanics. We still have Truthers believing their nonsensical theories. I case you haven't noticed I don't think very highly of conspiracy theorists when their theory is ridiculous on it's face.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I don't get the need to address obviously ridiculous conspiracy theories. The 9/11 Truther Conspiracy Theories were debunked in an outstanding study and article done by Popular Mechanics. We still have Truthers believing their nonsensical theories. I case you haven't noticed I don't think very highly of conspiracy theorists when their theory is ridiculous on it's face.

Once again, Aloha, I want you to understand why I'm advocating this. It's not to address conspiracy theories. It's not to satisfy any of the people who subscribe to it. I'm sure you're right that most of them will never be satisfied. Fine.

The reason I think we should do this is because of the loss of faith in key institutions in the country. If the FBI (or any other agency) really didn't have somebody there instigating people to go inside, then it would be a very good thing for the American people to know this definitively...beyond something other than their word.

Because a whole lot of people don't put much stock in their word. Hopefully you and I can agree that this is a problem that needs addressed.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

The 9/11 Truther Conspiracy Theories were debunked in an outstanding study and article done by Popular Mechanics.

Also, don't you think it was a good thing that Popular Mechanics did this? I certainly do.

Because it gave everybody who wasn't a 9/11 Truther an ironclad, scientific demonstration, step by step, about how crazy the allegations of the Truthers are.

Basically, I'm saying that it would be a good thing for all of us to have just as definitive proof that the FBI is telling us the truth about Ray Epps. Why? Well, because I think it would be kind of a big deal to learn that the FBI had people out there who were doing more than observing and informing. If they were instigating the criminal activity....that seems like one helluva big deal.

I don't know that it's true. But I don't know that it's not true. And I'd really like to know what the truth is -- beyond having to rely on Chris Wray's word.

 

[bbafficionado]

What does a “humane” deportation look like?

Put bidone and scumala in charge of it. They did a great job bringing them in.

 

[jet812]

We don't agree on the current administration being bad - and there's no need to rehash it here because I can almost type out your response by heart now - but I do believe a fair number of his base do want him to follow through on his multi-million mass deportation promises.

Based on popular vote results, the majority of voters are at least ok with it. 🙂

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Once again, Aloha, I want you to understand why I'm advocating this. It's not to address conspiracy theories. It's not to satisfy any of the people who subscribe to it. I'm sure you're right that most of them will never be satisfied. Fine.

The reason I think we should do this is because of the loss of faith in key institutions in the country. If the FBI (or any other agency) really didn't have somebody there instigating people to go inside, then it would be a very good thing for the American people to know this definitively...beyond something other than their word.

Because a whole lot of people don't put much stock in their word. Hopefully you and I can agree that this is a problem that needs addressed.

Trump is largely to blame for the loss of faith in key institutions in our country. His constant whining about being persecuted has been bought hook, line and sinker by his MAGA minions. If he can do something to fix that, I'm all for it.

 

[Palmbeachhoosier]

There were far more serious cases to be tried before they got to him. I predicted at the time that he'd be near the end of the line, and he was. Others testified in their trials that Epps told them NOT to go into the capitol. He also did NOT go in. Basically, the guy got cold feet. CIs and Feds NEVER get prosecuted for doing their jobs. It's a fact. You know what will happen if the file is ordered to be declassified (there isn't one) and nothing is opened? The Conspiracy Theorists will claim it as proof that Epps was a fed or CI.

It really is one of the dumbest conspiracy theories I've ever seen.

So Ray Epps is on video telling people to go into the capital is not a major issue. Yet Trump who also on video telling people to go to the capital and protest peacefully and patriotically is labelled an insurrectionist.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Trump is largely to blame for the loss of faith in key institutions in our country. His constant whining about being persecuted has been bought hook, line and sinker by his MAGA minions. If he can do something to fix that, I'm all for it.

Trump is a symptom of this loss of faith, Aloha. He's not a cause of it (though he probably has made it worse, I'll give you that).

But, yes, I think declassifying anything related to Ray Epps would help restore some faith with our institutions. And I do not mean with the conspiracy nutters. I'm talking about everybody else.

There are some peculiar things about that whole episode. Enough that prevents me from writing it off as total folly, anyway. I'd like to definitively know the truth of what happened with him -- and that includes (especially includes) if the story he and the FBI gave were entirely honest. If he's been an innocent victim of all this, we need to know that too.

I want the truth! I think I'm entitled.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

So Ray Epps is on video telling people to go into the capital is not a major issue. Yet Trump who also on video telling people to go to the capital and protest peacefully and patriotically is labelled an insurrectionist.

Epps was appropriately charged, prosecuted and convicted for his actions on J6. This is just as I predicted after Epps name became a thing.

Why do you have the timeline wrong? He said those things early on J6 and changed his tune as they actually got to the capitol. This is all in sworn testimony in the trials of other J6 criminals.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Trump is a symptom of this loss of faith, Aloha. He's not a cause of it (though he probably has made it worse, I'll give you that).

But, yes, I think declassifying anything related to Ray Epps would help restore some faith with our institutions. And I do not mean with the conspiracy nutters. I'm talking about everybody else.

There are some peculiar things about that whole episode. Enough that prevents me from writing it off as total folly, anyway. I'd like to definitively know the truth of what happened with him -- and that includes (especially includes) if the story he and the FBI gave were entirely honest. If he's been an innocent victim of all this, we need to know that too.

I want the truth! I think I'm entitled.

I'm all for declassifying anything to do with Ray Epps. I'm 99.9 percent certain there is nothing at all classified about him though.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Why do you have the timeline wrong? He said those things early on J6 and changed his tune as they actually got to the capitol. This is all in sworn testimony in the trials of other J6 criminals.

Are you saying Epps changed his tune later....or Trump changed his tune later? Because it's hard to tell, the way you wrote this.

If it's Epps, I don't think that gets him off any hooks. Not with me, anyway. It's not like all the exact same people who were within earshot of him when he was yelling for everybody to go in were also the people within earshot of him when he said not to go in.

I saw and heard what he said on video. And, given what he said on that video. I think he got off very, very lightly compared to what many others got that day. And, yes, that makes me a little curious.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Are you saying Epps changed his tune later....or Trump changed his tune later? Because it's hard to tell, the way you wrote this.

If it's Epps, I don't think that gets him off any hooks. Not with me, anyway. It's not like all the exact same people who were within earshot of him when he was yelling for everybody to go in were also the people within earshot of him when he said not to go in.

I saw and heard what he said on video. And, given what he said on that video. I think he got off very, very lightly compared to what many others got that day. And, yes, that makes me a little curious.

Epps.