It’s Mueller Time ....running thread

[Marvin the Martian]

“This is delicate to say, but Mueller, whom I deeply respect, has not publicly testified before Congress in at least six years,” David Axelrod, the top strategist in Barack Obama’s campaigns, wrote on Twitter. “And he does not appear as sharp as he was then.”

In the little bit I watched, it seems 1) he desperately did not want to be there and 2) he desperately wanted to give no one sound bites. He seemed to be working extra hard to parse everything. I can imagine that combination makes it tough to come across like a Winston Churchill.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I’m trying to understand this latest far right argument. When the report was released, Trump immediately states “total exoneration!” The Trump sycophants, Fox News and the far right on this board plant a flag.

Yesterday, Mueller says that Trump was not totally exonerated. Now, those same people who considered the case closed when our dishonest POTUS made the earlier claim, are very into the minutiae of legal process. Do I have this correct?

No. You are not correct. There is no difference between now and then except we now don’t know who ran the investigation. Mueller obviously was not in charge.

I keep flashing back to the posters here who often posted that Mueller was a clever and cunning prosecutor who was building an airtight case against Trump by getting people to flip. “We don’t know what Mueller” knows was a common theme around here. We now know that Mueller doesn’t know anything.

 

[iuwclurker]

Here is what you don’t get. In our system there is no difference between a prosecutor’s exoneration ( assuming there is such a thing). and the presumption of innocence.

You just created a strawman. We start with a common language. In English, we agree to a difference between presumption of innocence and exoneration. I'll give you an example.

John murders Jane. With no human witnesses present, only John knows he murdered her. Before any proceedings occur, John, Joe, Jacob, and Joella are presumed innocent but none has been exonerated. In fact, exoneration is not even relevant to anyone until one is suspected or accused. Once that happens, society either takes or doesn't take action to prove guilt or exonerate.
​

You seem to be attempting to neuter the English language to prove some point in defense of Trump and his associates misusing the word exonerate. You ought to just say they're misusing it.

Except he's not actually misusing it. He's intentionally trying to say that the Report did exonerate him. He's not as dumb as you're taking him to be.

So that leaves you in the position Trump tends to leave anyone who tries to help him -- up Shit Creek without a paddle.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

In the little bit I watched, it seems 1) he desperately did not want to be there and 2) he desperately wanted to give no one sound bites. He seemed to be working extra hard to parse everything. I can imagine that combination makes it tough to come across like a Winston Churchill.

It was clear from the time Mueller read the post-report statement at that presser that he didn’t want to be the Democrats’ sock puppet. Yet the dumbasses like Nadler and Schiff went merrily along the impeachment toad. I’ll give Pelosi credit here. She saw this coming.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

No. You are not correct. There is no difference between now and then except we now don’t know who ran the investigation. Mueller obviously was not in charge.

I keep flashing back to the posters here who often posted that Mueller was a clever and cunning prosecutor who was building an airtight case against Trump by getting people to flip. “We don’t know what Mueller” knows was a common theme around here. We now know that Mueller doesn’t know anything.

As usual, you use the phrase "we know" when you really mean "I believe."

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You just created a strawman. We start with a common language. In English, we agree to a difference between presumption of innocence and exoneration. I'll give you an example.

John murders Jane. With no human witnesses present, only John knows he murdered her. Before any proceedings occur, John, Joe, Jacob, and Joella are presumed innocent but none has been exonerated. In fact, exoneration is not even relevant to anyone until one is suspected or accused. Once that happens, society either takes or doesn't take action to prove guilt or exonerate.
​

You seem to be attempting to neuter the English language to prove some point in defense of Trump and his associates misusing the word exonerate. You ought to just say they're misusing it.

Except he's not actually misusing it. He's intentionally trying to say that the Report did exonerate him. He's not as dumb as you're taking him to be.

Close but no cigar. One who has been wrongly convicted can be exonerated.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

How are you able to type that with a straight face?

Because this is how it came down.

 

[stollcpa]

In the little bit I watched, it seems 1) he desperately did not want to be there and 2) he desperately wanted to give no one sound bites. He seemed to be working extra hard to parse everything. I can imagine that combination makes it tough to come across like a Winston Churchill.

Maybe that’s the explanation. I don’t like Hillary at all but the lady went to the Hill and kicked ass for 11 hours.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It was clear from the time Mueller read the post-report statement at that presser that he didn’t want to be the Democrats’ sock puppet. Yet the dumbasses like Nadler and Schiff went merrily along the impeachment toad. I’ll give Pelosi credit here. She saw this coming.

I will agree with that, but look at his responses to the Republicans. He clearly had no interest in being their sock puppet either.

 

[SNU0821]

I will agree with that, but look at his responses to the Republicans. He clearly had no interest in being their sock puppet either.

He just seemed like he didn't want to be there. I can understand and appreciate that.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Maybe that’s the explanation. I don’t like Hillary at all but the lady went to the Hill and kicked ass for 11 hours.

I think she wanted to go in and kick butt. And I think she needed to for her chances to win. Mueller did not need to for his career, and I don't think wanted to.

There is a line in 1776 where Adams asked Jefferson if he was going to speak up for his document (the declaration). Jefferson replied that he hoped the document would speak for itself. I think that was Mueller's take, his document spoke for itself.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Maybe that’s the explanation. I don’t like Hillary at all but the lady went to the Hill and kicked ass for 11 hours.

I disagree. When she said she didn’t pull the US diplomats out of Libya when some of our allies and NGO’s did, because “nobody recommended that to her,” she exposed herself as an out of touch figurehead with no leadership abilities. She ran her campaign in a similar fashion and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

I think she wanted to go in and kick butt. And I think she needed to for her chances to win. Mueller did not need to for his career, and I don't think wanted to.

There is a line in 1776 where Adams asked Jefferson if he was going to speak up for his document (the declaration). Jefferson replied that he hoped the document would speak for itself. I think that was Mueller's take, his document spoke for itself.

Agreed she was campaigning at those hearings.

 

[iuwclurker]

Close but no cigar. One who has been wrongly convicted can be exonerated.

Far and no cigar.

I showed you the definition of exonerate I'm using, which is clearly the one Trump et al. are using. Obviously Trump hasn't been convicted of anything rightly or wrongly, so the definition you just infused into the discussion, using your transparent little tools of sophistry, is non sequitor.

 

[iuwclurker]

How are you able to type that with a straight face?

That's a gentle way of asking, "Who with an IQ above 26 do you think gives credence to what you're saying?"

 

[UncleMark]

Similar to what @Cortez88 said in this thread, it seems like conservatives are ok with moving the goal posts as long as Fox News and Rush are pushing that narrative out.

I don't normally watch Fox News - you're right about that - but I don't see why that means any media source that is not-Fox is churning out fake news. Unless you lap up the president's twitter feed.

I just read Tucker Carlson's take on yesterday's hearings.

I now see where COH gets his talking points. Damn near verbatim.

 

[iuwclurker]

I disagree. When she said she didn’t pull the US diplomats out of Libya when some of our allies and NGO’s did, because “nobody recommended that to her,” she exposed herself as an out of touch figurehead with no leadership abilities. She ran her campaign in a similar fashion and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

DO you really have such a hard time tracking with a discussion? Stolp didn't say he agreed with anything Hillary said or did. He just said she kicked ass in the hearing, meaning she was on top of her debate game, whereas Mueller (in stolp's misguided view) was operating with a half a tank of mental gas.

 

[SNU0821]

Give COH some credit. Small minds think alike.

No obstruction. No collusion. Total exoneration.

 

[stollcpa]

I disagree. When she said she didn’t pull the US diplomats out of Libya when some of our allies and NGO’s did, because “nobody recommended that to her,” she exposed herself as an out of touch figurehead with no leadership abilities. She ran her campaign in a similar fashion and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.



Agreed she was campaigning at those hearings.

You may be right but when testimony was over it felt like she won the battle. It didn’t feel like they laid a glove on her with the public.

Yesterday I played golf late in the afternoon with a friend who’s a lawyer in Evansville. He’s a lifelong liberal democrat. We usually avoid politics so we can enjoy our round of golf. He didn’t say much yesterday. He was a little down and admitted it was a bad day for Mueller and the House Dems.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I just read Tucker Carlson's take on yesterday's hearings.

I now see where COH gets his talking points. Damn near verbatim.

Link? Does Carlson read the Cooler? He is plagiarizing me. Why does he get $$$$ millions and I get flack and called names while typing on my phone on a little ol’ sports discussion board?

 

[iuwclurker]

Link? Does Carlson read the Cooler? He is plagiarizing me. Why does he get $$$$ millions and I get flack and called names while typing on my phone on a little ol’ sports discussion board?

He doesn't pretend.

 

[outside shooter]

This can be put quite simply so even the red-hatters can understand:

When you are fully exonerated, that means you didn't do anything wrong and you will never, ever, face any legal repercussions for the allegations that have been brought against you, since they are known to be completely false.

Mueller has made it clear that the very second that Donald J. Trump is no longer president, when the DOJ guidelines no longer apply, Donald J. Trump will be open to prosecution for the several instances of potential criminal activity that his probe uncovered.

When you are exonerated, that obviously would not be the case. Understand?

 

[Ladoga]

https://freebeacon.com/politics/msnbc-analyst-mueller-sucked-the-life-out-of-the-report/

MSNBC contributor and former Obama administration official Jeremy Bash said Robert Mueller's appearance before the House Judiciary Committee "sucked the life out of the report" and "set back" efforts to impeach President Donald Trump.

Bash made the comments Wednesday on MSNBC between Mueller's two testimonies.

Schiff, the voice of Dems on this issue said impeachment is over - no prospect of impeachment:

“I would be delighted if we had a prospect of removing him through impeachment, but we don’t,” Schiff said. “And the most attractive thing to me about an impeachment is that it is among the strongest forms of censure that we have. But the same is true of an acquittal for the president. That’s the strongest form of exoneration for him. And that stays my hand.”

He's not going to do it. Its all over but the lies in Democrat election ads.

 

[iuwclurker]

This can be put quite simply so even the red-hatters can understand:

When you are fully exonerated, that means you didn't do anything wrong and you will never, ever, face any legal repercussions for the allegations that have been brought against you, since they are known to be completely false.

Mueller has made it clear that the very second that Donald J. Trump is no longer president, when the DOJ guidelines no longer apply, Donald J. Trump will be open to prosecution for the several instances of potential criminal activity that his probe uncovered.

When you are exonerated, that obviously would not be the case. Understand?

From lawdictionary.com

What is EXONERATE?
To lift, remove the stain of being called out for blame, liability, or punishment. It is more that just freeing an accused person of the responsibility for a criminal or otherwise illegal or wrongful act. It is publicly stating that this accused should never have been accused in the first place. Refer to acquit and exculpate.
​

Of course Trump wants to claim exoneration.

​

 

[UncleMark]

“I would be delighted if we had a prospect of removing him through impeachment, but we don’t,” Schiff said. “And the most attractive thing to me about an impeachment is that it is among the strongest forms of censure that we have. But the same is true of an acquittal for the president. That’s the strongest form of exoneration for him. And that stays my hand.”

He's not going to do it. Its all over but the lies in Democrat election ads.

It's not his call. It would be up to Nadler and Pelosi.

 

[iuwclurker]

Merriam Webster

exoneration
noun
ex·on·er·a·tion | \ ig-ˌzä-nə-ˈrā-shən, eg- \
Legal Definition of exoneration


1: the act of disburdening or discharging (as from a charge, liability, obligation, duty, or responsibility)also : the state of being so freed​

So clearly it's an action in response to some charge and that charge doesn't have to be a conviction. Trump feels charged in the Court of Public Opinion of obstruction of justice and wants complete exoneration.

 

[Ladoga]

It's not his call. It would be up to Nadler and Pelosi.

Its political. Schiff is putting out his view of the status of the Socialist effort to impeach. He publicly recognizes that they are dead in the water. He admits they have no chance to impeach - NOT that they have no chance to offer lies and phoney elections ads. We know they'll do that - they're Democrats. Its what they do. But Schiff sees and smells the death. Its all over but the Democrat lies.

 

[UncleMark]

Its political. Schiff is putting out his view of the status of the Socialist effort to impeach. He publicly recognizes that they are dead in the water. He admits they have no chance to impeach - NOT that they have no chance to offer lies and phoney elections ads. We know they'll do that - they're Democrats. Its what they do. But Schiff sees and smells the death. Its all over but the Democrat lies.

They have a chance to impeach, but not to convict. That's the issue. That's what he's acknowledging.

 

[iuwclurker]

Mueller: “The president was not exculpated for the acts that he allegedly committed.”

 

[Lucy01]

Question, Is your name Robert Mueller?
Answer, I can’t get into that. WTF
Did Mueller go to Purdue

 

[UncleMark]

Question, Is your name Robert Mueller?
Answer, I can’t get into that. WTF
Did Mueller go to Purdue

*pulls up to drive thru*

Wendy's: "What can I get for you today?"

Mueller: "I can't get into that."

Wendy's: "You can't get into what?"

Mueller: "It's in my report."

Wendy's: "What report?"

Mueller: "I take your question."

Wendy's: "Sir, this is a Wendy's."

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Mueller: “The president was not exculpated for the acts that he allegedly committed.”

View embedded media

View embedded media

Exactly. Because of the presumption of innocence Trump was never inculpated. He wasn’t even accused.

 

[hoot1]

You may be right but when testimony was over it felt like she won the battle. It didn’t feel like they laid a glove on her with the public.

Yesterday I played golf late in the afternoon with a friend who’s a lawyer in Evansville. He’s a lifelong liberal democrat. We usually avoid politics so we can enjoy our round of golf. He didn’t say much yesterday. He was a little down and admitted it was a bad day for Mueller and the House Dems.

Stoll, get with it, your friend according to current talking points is a "lifelong socialist".

 

[Neves]

2+2=5

 

[iuwclurker]

Exactly. Because of the presumption of innocence Trump was never inculpated. He wasn’t even accused.

Wrong again. Reread without overlooking "allegedly."

But you're still missing the entire jist of all this. It's Trump et al. who are strumming the exonerate banjo. So even if you were right, Trump and his entourage are the fools here.

 

[stollcpa]

Stoll, get with it, your friend according to current talking points is a "lifelong socialist".

We don’t discuss politics often. He never has good answers about him paying more taxes for all the “free stuff” his friends want to give away.

He’s a tightwad. He has years of detail records of golf bets with his friends. If I asked him he could tell me the exact number we’ve won/loss against each other. He paid me yesterday. I’ve paid him many times. 70 years old and he still has a great game from the up tees. We’ll see how it goes today when we play again in a couple hours.

 

[SNU0821]

Wrong again. Reread without overlooking "allegedly."

But you're still missing the entire jist of all this. It's Trump et al. who are strumming the exonerate banjo. So even if you were right, Trump and his entourage are the fools here.

Except it was Mueller who put that in his report when there is no precedence for him doing so. The Dems then jumped all over it. So of course Trump is gonna parrot his exoneration to the fullest. The Dems played a hand and got destroyed.

 

[SNU0821]

Can we all step back and marvel at how wrong the main stream media and their pundits have been? I mean, it’s beyond remarkable. First, Trump would never win. Then it became there was ample smoke around Russian collusion and Trump was compromised. Then it became obstruction. Now we’re left with the MSM looking like complete and utter idiots.

 

[Bill4411]

“This is delicate to say, but Mueller, whom I deeply respect, has not publicly testified before Congress in at least six years,” David Axelrod, the top strategist in Barack Obama’s campaigns, wrote on Twitter. “And he does not appear as sharp as he was then.”

I’m sure the last two years have taken a heavy toll on him with the constant vilification by Trump and his media outlets all in the name of trying to do his duty. Life isn’t always fair to those that serve.

 

[hoot1]

We don’t discuss politics often. He never has good answers about him paying more taxes for all the “free stuff” his friends want to give away.

He’s a tightwad. He has years of detail records of golf bets with his friends. If I asked him he could tell me the exact number we’ve won/loss against each other. He paid me yesterday. I’ve paid him many times. 70 years old and he still has a great game from the up tees. We’ll see how it goes today when we play again in a couple hours.

Trust you guys don't play on public golf courses which are subsidized by taxpayers (partial freebies).

 

[Neves]

Can we all step back and marvel at how wrong the main stream media and their pundits have been? I mean, it’s beyond remarkable. First, Trump would never win. Then it became there was ample smoke around Russian collusion and Trump was compromised. Then it became obstruction. Now we’re left with the MSM looking like complete and utter idiots.

Do you understand that the FBI has a counter intelligence investigation currently open, in which the public has little if any details on?

I want a media that reports facts. I don't care which side it hurts. Trump wants everything to be shutdown so he can do whatever he wants. It's fascinating to me that you are okay with no checks and balances. Even if nothing turns up, we need accountability in government. Accountability for the Clinton's, Trump's and whoever else is taking advantage of the system

Main stream media is far from perfect, but it's better than Fox News which is straight up gaslighting the American public.