Didn't say I agreed with it, but the context of those loans was supposedly different...but yes, they were "loans" like the last big piece of legislation was to curb inflation.
@UncleMark
This is a representation you make on page 3 of PPP Loan Application. If your company is solid financially with cash reserves to get you through the near term how can you certify this on the application? I spoke with Braun’s office about the PPP Loan and it’s purpose was to help businesses during the critical part of the Covid Lockdown. Basically a 12 week period. Uncertainly about 6 months down the road wasn’t the purpose of the loan. The purpose was the next 12 weeks or so of the lock down.
Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support the ongoing operations of the Applicant.
This is a representation you make on page 3 of PPP Loan Application. If your company is solid financially with cash reserves to get you through the near term how can you certify this on the application? I spoke with Braun’s office about the PPP Loan and it’s purpose was to help businesses during the critical part of the Covid Lockdown. Basically a 12 week period. Uncertainly about 6 months down the road wasn’t the purpose of the loan. The purpose was the next 12 weeks or so of the lock down.
Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support the ongoing operations of the Applicant.
My roommate in college received a pell grant. His dad was a farmer and his mother a school teacher. They were divorced and his father could show zero income. Not all are from the bottom end of the spectrum.
Pell grants are entitlements based on household income so students can receive that grant even if it’s beyond their COA.
The same would be true for a Kelley student with the same amount of private donor scholarships (equal to full ride athlete).
Students cannot receive federal loans,
some state grants, and some private scholarships beyond their need and/or COA.
I got a Pell Grant. You don’t have to be dirt poor. We were lower middle class. But the Pell Grant and the work study job allowed me to go to college and really good one at that.
Quit chasing worthless 4 year degrees!! Go get a trade!! College is a scam outside of a few degrees; medicine, law, engineering, etc.
This guy's dad worked at Chrysler and was hauling down at leat $80k to $100k with OT.
It's bullshit that anyone on full athletic scholarship could get a Pell grant. But that didn't stop me from letting him buy me a strom and a beer at Nick's.
Unfortunately, that's the case. The days of a well rounded liberal arts education having any value are long gone. Even the degrees you mention are white collar "trade" degrees. The employers all want plug and play bodies. My dad's experience, where he graduated with a music degree and started in with American United Life and was trained and mentored and made successful, that doesn't happen anymore. AUL would have hired a dozen Kelley grads ahead of him.
But it's a damn fun scam! You'll never be around as many horny women in one place for the rest of your life.
Hell, most of the law school students are liberal arts or 'social science' majors of some type.
Come to think of it, that's a good reason to outlaw those majors.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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I never treated the purpose of college as getting a job.
You're either fracking old or well off enough for it not to be a concern.
But you're right, it shouldn't be. Too bad the people doing the hiring don't view it the same way.
That all changed with the advent of business schools.
Not a knock against B-schools, but just look at the history. And Herman Wells was at the forefront of developing a B-school.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
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I wasn’t well off at all. I was idealistic though. I’m 50. I was not the norm by any measure and I’m not saying my view is the right one.
College is just too expensive now, though, to treat it that way in my mind.
And the Music School. Yet the reality was that only a tiny sliver of Music grads were ever able to make a living performing. Most went into the workforce at the entry level and never used their degree professionally. My dad had a job lined up at his high school to take over the music program, but then got sent to Korea. When he got back, the school job was filled and he had to look for a job, any job, that would pay the bills. AUL took a chance on him and he did well.
Music is great for training the mind. My mom knew a guy in college (she was a teacher) who was a music major and everyone assumed he'd be a music teacher or maybe professional musician. He was drafted into the Army and it turned out the guy was a genius and he got trained in 50s era computers. He then went to work for IBM and rose to a high level.
Most of the people I was in band with in HS (yes, I was a band geek) turned out to be pretty successful. Something about the discipline of music, I think, and developing the mind.
Personally, I was looking to join the Army band after HS - I'm a lover, not a fighter. I passed the audition and was well on my way to doing that. Then I took aptitude tests and scored high in languages, so they offered me a year in Monterey, CA and a probable duty station anywhere but Vietnam. I took that option. I'm not saying being in music was the reason, but it sure didn't hurt - to be a good musician, you have to really practice. As the old saying goes: How to you get to Carnegie Hall - practice, practice, practice. I believe that discipline helped me get through a very intense language school.
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Colleges aren't really in the business of educating most students anymore. Depending on school and professor, most students are there to get "credentialed" and some professors view their role as basically indoctrination of the next generation.
I don't know when exactly the switch happened, was probably gradual, but the reason most go to college is to get a piece of paper that is a ticket to the white collar jobs. There are still instances where the schooling is needed, but the vast majority of people going through college could do their jobs without. There is just a barrier to entry imposed by employers (lazy HR) so going and getting a degree is just a box to be checked.
That change has also coincided with many college graduates being completely unimpressive. Now you get a bunch of those young adults and they will tell you how educated and super smart they are....some are, many aren't. They are no longer the "expert" class. They are the credentialed class. 17 years of schooling, tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and receiving jobs that people 40 years ago could get with just a high school degree and some work experience (and a good interview).
That is not all these people's fault. Blame corporate America, the government, the schools, etc. but it is reality. That piece of paper doesn't mean the same thing it did 40, 50, 60 years ago.
I don't know when exactly the switch happened, was probably gradual, but the reason most go to college is to get a piece of paper that is a ticket to the white collar jobs. There are still instances where the schooling is needed, but the vast majority of people going through college could do their jobs without. There is just a barrier to entry imposed by employers (lazy HR) so going and getting a degree is just a box to be checked.
That change has also coincided with many college graduates being completely unimpressive. Now you get a bunch of those young adults and they will tell you how educated and super smart they are....some are, many aren't. They are no longer the "expert" class. They are the credentialed class. 17 years of schooling, tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and receiving jobs that people 40 years ago could get with just a high school degree and some work experience (and a good interview).
That is not all these people's fault. Blame corporate America, the government, the schools, etc. but it is reality. That piece of paper doesn't mean the same thing it did 40, 50, 60 years ago.
You asked me questions about her neighbor. I basically told you the extent of what I know about her, and obviously I know nothing about her neighbor...
We differ on many things, but I couldn't agree more with this post.
The first job I had out of IU was a job where the people my parent's age at the company were quite often people with just a HS degree who got to work up to that point. All of the newer/younger people were college grads. This was early 2000's so I don't think the college prices had gone completely crazy, but I had a little under $20k in college debt to get a job that started around $35k.
I am telling you now that I could have done that job without one college credit. I maybe would have needed to mature a little more before I took it on, but from an ability standpoint, could have done it as an 18 year old HS grad.
We have a whole bunch of jobs like that these days where we force people to go into debt for that piece of paper and really it is wholly unnecessary. You just need to train them. However, the piece of paper is a ticket and with HR and businesses the way they are now, you have to pay the price of admission. We should really look to change that and addressing that one thing would go a long way to driving down the costs of these schools.
Don't get me wrong, there was value in going to college for me. Going and living on my own in an area that was "controlled" in the sense that Bloomington was still a somewhat isolated area from 1997 to 2001 and most of the people I interacted with were around my age, allowed for some good growth. Juggling school and life without a parent there is a good experience. Your grades could be a reflection of how well you handled that. All that being said though, could that also not be learned with a job?
It's a shame there's not a university degree buyback program. Like books.
It just so happens that several of the PPP loan receivers are the same people complaining that individual student borrowers are having their repayment reduced by $10,000. It seems to me that is basically just reducing the amount of interest they'll end up paying. That's far different than certain GOP members of Congress who got write offs on money that was intended to pay workers and keep a business afloat but inevitably ended up in the owner's pocket...
My issue is not so much with MTG getting $185,000 or a guy like Buchanan getting over $2 MILLION and then both having their loans completely forgiven. My problem is them speaking out and complaining about help for people who got far less than they did. Analysis has shown that only about 25% of PPP loans went to their intended purpose (paying workers) and we're supposed to believe that grifters like MTG for example spent that $$ on her employees?
What business does MTG purport to even run while she plays at being in Congress, and what possible business could Buchanan be running simultaneously to serving in Congress that would necessitate a PPP loan of over $2 Million to keep it up and running? And they're going to attempt to score political points by complaining that college students had their debt burden reduced by $10,000? I wonder what an investigation into the respective PPP loans would uncover, and if MTG's "employees" would feel the money was put to it's designed use?
If it's true that 70% of those in polls approve of loan reduction, I'd say these folks are pissing in the wind...
Emerson poll 36% 10,000 too much, 35% just right and 30% not enough- no category of people who are against it all together and 65% just right or want more...
Poll from Data for Progress showed 60% favor some or full reduction- obviously a Progressive source. But the WH estimates that about 29% of borrowers have less than $10,000 in debt, so close to 20 Million people would have their debt wiped out completely. That seems like a huge deal...
The polling does seem to show that Independent (62%)s and even people who never took out a loan (58%) viewed the policy favorably, it only scored approval from (44%) of Republicans.
New poll shows widespread support for student loan cancellation
While GOP members are claiming student loan cancellation will be a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich, the policy remains popular
I've got to disagree with you somewhat. College is valuable to future empoyers because, if for no other reason, they've stuck with something for 4 years, even if the major is not that impressive. Each major has at least a few classes that require some real scholastic work.
And, sticking something out that long means they've been through a transition period in a period of their lives that is difficult for a lot of people - much like the military does, only with far less supervision.
And, there are many social connections made in college that will last a lifetime.
Of course the cost is ridiculous - no question there. But there's a reason college is a barrier to entry for some employers.
I can see that for some, but couldn't you glean stick-to-it-tiveness from someone who got a job and held that from 18 to 22 as well?
There are benefits to school and there are some professions where I think that extra degree is absolutely necessary. That being said, I am thinking of the kids who aren't sure what they want to do in life, but they know you have to go to school. So they go and get like a sociology degree or something like that and end up working for an insurance company in the call center taking claims. Those insurance companies won't hire them without the degree and they probably have about $30k in debt (the average debt right now for a 4 year degree is $28,800) for a job that starts on average around $41k a year. That is unnecessary debt for that job.
Let's break it down more though. That $41,000 at a gyesstimate tax rate/benefits cost of around 22% leaves the young person with about $2665 in net pay a month. A $30k loan over 10 years at 5% interest breaks down to about $318 a month. The average rent for an apartment in a city like Indianapolis is around $1100 a month. So they pay rent and they pay school loan and they are down to about $1200 for food, car payment, car insurance, cell or phone bill, TV costs/entertainment, possibly heat or electric depending on how rent is figured. That extra $318 a month is an anchor.
So what do people do? They end up deferring the loans or dropping it down so they are paying just the interest or barely any principal. And 5 years down the line they have started to progress in the job but have barely made a dent in the loan. Then you are looking at marriage, kids, buying a house and you probably have next to nothing saved up because the $318 a month you have to pay for the privelege to be considered for a job that one generation before you would hire a 22 year old with some experience working something else. Multiply that by millions of people and it drags the economy down.
Even worse are the ones who know you have to do that to get ahead but end up dropping before they can complete the degree for whatever reason. Now they not only do not have the degree, they have the loan to boot.
One last point, I needed around 122 hours (give or take) to get a bachelor's at IU. You had to take several courses at the time that were like "topics" courses in different areas. I had one class that was basically "Vampires" and we went 3 days a week and looked at art and the professor was like, "hey see the Dracula connotations here?" If degrees are a required credential to get a job in an office, forced classes like that should be thrown out. There should be a "I am here to broaden my mind" track and a track for the "I have to be here so that businesses will give me a chance" track.
He cheated on Ivana when she was pregnant and he cheated on Melania with Stormy. I don't think he was ever single, he just acted as if he was...
So if anyone doesn't believe this is accurate, I'd be interested in hearing why you feel that way.
But we know nursing requires a college degree, and we know there is a horrible shortage of nurses. So when this room of nurses at Temple U Hosp talks about $7 Million in accumulated student loan debt between 125 people and also having to deal with staffing shortages, I'd say it puts a whole different perspective on this whole issue. One that I'm not sure anyone in this thread has even come close to expressing...
And as usual Cruz looks like a moron...Attacking people who fill jobs in the service industry (and likely wait on his fat ass in restaurants, cafes, etc...)Just a despicable POS....
I definitely agree with the 2 track idea. But that's sort of implied now anyway if you major in liberal arts.
I found at IU there were basically 2 types of students: ones, like me, who wanted to go to college because, well, everyone expected me to and I didn't have many skills to do anything else. The other group had parents who usually worked in a professional environment and steered their kids to business or some "pre" degree for grad school: chemistry, biology, math, etc. Those kids knew what they wanted to do and knew what they would probably be doing for the next 50 years.
I got out of IU with my History and Economics double majors (Russian minor) and didn't even start looking for a job until 2nd semester senior year - I just never really thought about it. I figured, with a college degree (this was 1979), I could walk into any company and they'd hire me. WRONG! I panicked and took the first job I could find - I didn't have wealthy parents and my folks had other kids to support. I needed a job to live. So my first job out of IU was, believe it or not, a seed inspector. I walked corn, bean, and wheat fields in the summer and tested seed growth in the winter.
It didn't take me long to realize I'd need an advanced degree, so I swallowed my pride and got an MBA. I hated the idea of business and only being in it to make money, but I realized I wasn't a serious enough student to go to medical or law school, so if I was to make anything of myself, I needed to make some money.
My long-winded point is that I believe most social science and liberal arts majors just have no idea what they hell they want. There needs to be better counseling for incoming students and more career guidance. It's pretty tough to find out what you want to do in your junior year that's different from your academic path.
I don't know if IU does it, but, imo, there needs to be tiered pricing for credit hours. 1 hour of accounting should cost more than an hour for history, for example.
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Anybody’s four years at IU that coincided with Archie Miller’s four years, trumps all the rest of us for the “stick to it for four years” thing. They deserve some kind of tuition reimbursement.
College isn't a trade school.... and should never be looked at as such. It teaches you how to learn, not what to learn.
Hard to think of it otherwise when it's a requirement for a "trade".
WGAFF about starting salaries for entry level? ... my wife was a Poly Sci major and took an "entry level" with a F100 insurance company in her mid 20s making like $32k/yr. Today she makes 4x that.... still with the same company.
Was her degree a bad decision? I can guarantee she wouldn't have gotten the promotions and raises over the last 15 years without a degree... she'd be stuck in an admin/support role.
Did any member of the House vote against both pieces of legislation?It just so happens that several of the PPP loan receivers are the same people complaining that individual student borrowers are having their repayment reduced by $10,000. It seems to me that is basically just reducing the amount of interest they'll end up paying. That's far different than certain GOP members of Congress who got write offs on money that was intended to pay workers and keep a business afloat but inevitably ended up in the owner's pocket...
My issue is not so much with MTG getting $185,000 or a guy like Buchanan getting over $2 MILLION and then both having their loans completely forgiven. My problem is them speaking out and complaining about help for people who got far less than they did. Analysis has shown that only about 25% of PPP loans went to their intended purpose (paying workers) and we're supposed to believe that grifters like MTG for example spent that $$ on her employees?
What business does MTG purport to even run while she plays at being in Congress, and what possible business could Buchanan be running simultaneously to serving in Congress that would necessitate a PPP loan of over $2 Million to keep it up and running? And they're going to attempt to score political points by complaining that college students had their debt burden reduced by $10,000? I wonder what an investigation into the respective PPP loans would uncover, and if MTG's "employees" would feel the money was put to it's designed use?
If it's true that 70% of those in polls approve of loan reduction, I'd say these folks are pissing in the wind...
Emerson poll 36% 10,000 too much, 35% just right and 30% not enough- no category of people who are against it all together and 65% just right or want more...
Poll from Data for Progress showed 60% favor some or full reduction- obviously a Progressive source. But the WH estimates that about 29% of borrowers have less than $10,000 in debt, so close to 20 Million people would have their debt wiped out completely. That seems like a huge deal...
The polling does seem to show that Independent (62%)s and even people who never took out a loan (58%) viewed the policy favorably, it only scored approval from (44%) of Republicans.
New poll shows widespread support for student loan cancellation
While GOP members are claiming student loan cancellation will be a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich, the policy remains popularen.as.com
Out of curiosity….what percentage of courses that she completed is she using for her current employment?
I know I use very little.
You do realize that not everyone has that experience right? And that doesn't answer whether or not she could perform that job without the poly-sci degree either.
However, to get back to your wife, she had the same starting experience as me. Same industry. Same starting pay. I left that industry so I could get the higher pay. I guarantee you that whatever she did when she started at that company, she could have done without the degree. I would also bet that whatever she was able to do that helped her move up through the company was more based on what she did as an employee from her mid 20's to now then it was based on things she learned from 18 to 22 in school.
If she is making 4 times that salary, is she in management? Yes, in the context of how the world works today, her degree was a "good" investment. She couldn't have gotten where she is without the credential of studying a completely unrelated field at the cost of what? $30k or $40k? that she had to have in order for her company to even consider hiring her. I am questioning why we have to do that for those types of jobs when we did not have to in the past. Ask her if she thinks she could have done that initial job without the degree. Ask her if she thinks her job experience/performance was more relevant to her promotions. If the answer to both of those questions is yes, then it would have made more economic sense to not have a system that required her to spend $40k to get a degree that serves as a barrier to entry.
Up above you also said that college is not meant to be a trade school. I agree. However with the system that we have, it basically is a trade school for white collar jobs. Your wife went and spent years learning about something she will (most likely) never use. All she did was prove she was smart enough to pass classes. She could take direction. She can kick out answers in the right environment. She could stick to a program. White collar trade school. It is not a terrible thing to question that paradigm.
Edit to add: And I chose starting pay to show how those loans can become an anchor from jump. I think you and I are similar age. I am assuming your wife is too. The average loan now is $11k more than I owed when I left (and I was slightly above the average of $16,900 at the time). The average rent in the area I live in has about doubled. You can have a "dumb" cell phone now, but it ends up costing you entry to some places. Cell phone bills are 2x what I used to pay for basic service (at least). The average starting salary for that similar job to your wife has only increased by $8k since 2001 or 2002. The cost of school and the use of a college degree as a barrier to entry level work which did not exist until after the Baby Boomers had gotten established in the workforce is an unnecessary anchor on our economy IMO.
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White collar work. All of it. If the job you want to do involves working in an office, you have to go to college "trade school" to do so. In some instances that makes sense, in others it doesn't.
I agree with you up above that college isn't supposed to be viewed as a trade school, but that is what it has become. You don't want to do blue collar work? You gotta go. You don't want to be in the service industry your whole life? You gotta go.
She wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place -- wouldn't even have gotten an interview -- without that degree that is totally unrelated to the "trade", where by "trade" we're talking about white collar work in general.
Otherwise, I'll let Crazy do the talking. He's channeling my thoughts and expressing them far better than I could this morning.
