“Biden adds to his Bidenomics flop”

[mcmurtry66]

This will be very interesting and is a big deal. Biden gets dragged heavily as he’s obviously pandering and clueless but in five minutes reviewing the rule it looks more confusing than it was before. He’s going to piss off a ton of young people in the gig economy as well as retirees. @UncleMark

@BradStevens you’ve got three months to get up to speed. There’s mountain money in this for you son

MSN

 

[larsIU]

In some ways Biden, and Trump, are trying to revive a long gone American economic paradigm (namely manufacturing, with union/mgmt detente). Biden by pandering to unions who've probably skewed more towards Trump in recent years and Trump by making promises he surely can't keep regading bringnig manufacturing back. At least not to levels from pre 1990's.

Probably b/c htey are both a million years old.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

This will be very interesting and is a big deal. Biden gets dragged heavily as he’s obviously pandering and clueless but in five minutes reviewing the rule it looks more confusing than it was before. He’s going to piss off a ton of young people in the gig economy as well as retirees. @UncleMark

@BradStevens you’ve got three months to get up to speed. There’s mountain money in this for you son

MSN

Gig workers and business are the incubators for entrepreneurs and small business. By suppressing that we are hurting the economy in ways we don’t even know about. Another example of reversing a “Trump era” rule to advance an agenda without considering consequences.. California led the way with quashing the gig economy, and that has metastasized to the national level.

What’s worse is the profound vagueness in the proposal. The rule throws the door wide open for agency interpretation and selective enforcement. Will this lead to weaponizing the DOL against business owners who donate to the wrong candidates?

The prolixity of the explanation and summary is shameful. Yet another example of having way too many government employees with too little to do. I have experience with this issue back in the 80’s. The rule was much more precise and easy to apply in those days.

 

[mcmurtry66]

In some ways Biden, and Trump, are trying to revive a long gone American economic paradigm (namely manufacturing, with union/mgmt detente). Biden by pandering to unions who've probably skewed more towards Trump in recent years and Trump by making promises he surely can't keep regading bringnig manufacturing back. At least not to levels from pre 1990's.

Probably b/c htey are both a million years old.

i think that's a very interesting take. i agree

 

[mcmurtry66]

Gig workers and business are the incubators for entrepreneurs and small business. By suppressing that we are hurting the economy in ways we don’t even know about. Another example of reversing a “Trump era” rule to advance an agenda without considering consequences.. California led the way with quashing the gig economy, and that has metastasized to the national level.

What’s worse is the profound vagueness in the proposal. The rule throws the door wide open for agency interpretation and selective enforcement. Will this lead to weaponizing the DOL against business owners who donate to the wrong candidates?

The prolixity of the explanation and summary is shameful. Yet another example of having way too many government employees with too little to do. I have experience with this issue back in the 80’s. The rule was much more precise and easy to apply in those days.

i know people love gig work. whether it's good for the economy or bad i don't know. at first blush i think the rule is vague as shit and will give rise to tons of litigation on misclassifications. those can be great cases under the flsa bc if one guy is misclassified they all are

i like lars take about rolling back the clock. it does seem that way to me

 

[larsIU]

Gig workers and business are the incubators for entrepreneurs and small business.

I agree with this.

You know what would really help fire up this kind of entrepreneurship and spark our economy?

Single payor health insurance. Untie health insurance from employment. Right the mistake made generations ago.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I agree with this.

You know what would really help fire up this kind of entrepreneurship and spark our economy?

Single payor health insurance. Untie health insurance from employment. Right the mistake made generations ago.

miss IGW

 

[mcmurtry66]

I agree with this.

You know what would really help fire up this kind of entrepreneurship and spark our economy?

Single payor health insurance. Untie health insurance from employment. Right the mistake made generations ago.

yeah in thinking about it the new emerging economy really is incongruent with our health insurance system. my new health insurance for the year is a thousand a month for just me and my minion. my ex wife switched jobs not terribly long ago and her cobra coverage for her and my daughter was going to be $1,500 a month. that's madness.

you know i hate biden and am no fan of trump, but one silver lining is after this election we should be done with the old guys. we need younger gov people who understand where we are going

 

[hoot1]

I agree with this.

You know what would really help fire up this kind of entrepreneurship and spark our economy?

Single payor health insurance. Untie health insurance from employment. Right the mistake made generations ago.

Completely agree.

Ran several businesses using independent contractors.

Biggest benefit to me was not having to pay for benefits such as insurance or retirement plans.

Biggest downside to them was not to have the discipline to provide their own benefits. There are many advantages to group health insurance which single payer would provide. Hate to say it, but making it mandatory would both lower premium costs and prevent gigs from taking the risk of not having coverage.

 

[GigGoo]

I agree with this.

You know what would really help fire up this kind of entrepreneurship and spark our economy?

Single payor health insurance. Untie health insurance from employment. Right the mistake made generations ago.

Yeah because no one ever complains about the service they get at the VA. 120 billion a year and the outcomes are still shit.

Show me you can get the VA to run effectively and I’ll be open to a larger single payer system.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Yeah because no one ever complains about the service they get at the VA. 120 billion a year and the outcomes are still shit.

Show me you can get the VA to run effectively and I’ll be open to a larger single payer system.

Yeah that is the issue I see

 

[larsIU]

Yeah because no one ever complains about the service they get at the VA. 120 billion a year and the outcomes are still shit.

Show me you can get the VA to run effectively and I’ll be open to a larger single payer system.

Yeah because no one ever complains about the service they get from BC/BS, Anthem, United Heathcare, Wellpoint, etc. 1.2 trillion a year adn the outcomes are still.....

I get it man. But what, we can't make it better? Old people LOVE Medicare. use that ****ing model.

Edit: And "at the VA". The hospitals don't have to be owned by the government. I said single payor not nationalized health service.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Yeah because no one ever complains about the service they get from BC/BS, Anthem, United Heathcare, Wellpoint, etc. 1.2 trillion a year adn the outcomes are still.....

I get it man. But what, we can't make it better? Old people LOVE Medicare. use that ****ing model.

Edit: And "at the VA". The hospitals don't have to be owned by the government. I said single payor not nationalized health service.

Cigna just bolted from Missouri. Losing options

 

[larsIU]

Cigna just bolted from Missouri. Losing options

Yep. With the obesity epidemic in thsi country it's gonna be like homeowner's in Florida before too long.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Joe's Floponomics. Pander to the lowest common denominator wins the ever increasingly stupid voter base.

 

[snarlcakes]

Yeah because no one ever complains about the service they get from BC/BS, Anthem, United Heathcare, Wellpoint, etc. 1.2 trillion a year adn the outcomes are still.....

I get it man. But what, we can't make it better? Old people LOVE Medicare. use that ****ing model.

Edit: And "at the VA". The hospitals don't have to be owned by the government. I said single payor not nationalized health service.

If they change to single payer system they won’t be able to pass the costs onto the private market. Long term it would just shift costs and put more financial burden on the middle class through inflation and taxes.

 

[mcmurtry66]

If they change to single payer system they won’t be able to pass the costs onto the private market. Long term it would just shift costs and put more financial burden on the middle class through inflation and taxes.

It’s basically broken now. If people qualify for Medicaid an are on market they get hood doctors and shit care. Go off market and a family is over a grand for coverage

If not on a group

 

[UncleMark]

Edit: And "at the VA". The hospitals don't have to be owned by the government. I said single payor not nationalized health service.

Canadian model, not UK.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Yep. With the obesity epidemic in thsi country it's gonna be like homeowner's in Florida before too long.

Yikes

 

[snarlcakes]

It’s basically broken now. If people qualify for Medicaid an are on market they get hood doctors and shit care. Go off market and a family is over a grand for coverage

If not on a group

Most of Europe has single payer and haven’t had more success than the U.S. in entrepreneurship or innovation. Go through the list of newer top companies in the past several decades that are worth 100 million plus. I think there are only one or two from Europe. Not to mention they spend a lot less on military.

The notion that socializing businesses is going to lead to cheaper costs is nonsense. If you want single payer for moral reasons, that’s fine. However, it’s not going to lead to growth or people in the middle class being better off.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Most of Europe has single payer and haven’t had more success than the U.S. in entrepreneurship or innovation. Go through the list of newer top companies in the past several decades that are worth 100 million plus. I think there are only one or two from Europe. Not to mention they spend a lot less on military.

The notion that socializing businesses is going to lead to growth and cheaper costs is nonsense. If you want single payer for moral reasons, that’s fine. However, it’s not going to lead to growth or people in the middle class being better off.

I think Lars is right tho that with the younger gens and the economy changing towards gig work and entrepreneurship health insurance needs to somehow adapt to it. I don’t know enough about it to have an idea as to how. I do know medical care costs need to be addressed. It’s far more than an insurance/reimbursement issue

 

[TMFT]

I'll demur on whether the new rule is going to be worth anything. But the misclassification of workers is a HUGE issue.

A lot of times workers are paid cash under the table as "independent contractors" when they're obviously employees. It's a tax dodge by both the employer & the employee. This is especially so when the worker is not reporting his "IC" income and still receiving public benefits. Basically, he's drawing off of the tax base when he should be contributing to it.

PLUS, work comp protections don't apply to independent contractors so if someone gets hurt on the job they can be hung out to try. Although ICs can technically sue their employer for an injury caused by the employer's negligence, if they're ACTUALLY employees by the test, then the sole remedy is Work Comp.

I've done more than a couple of cases where someone has been seriously hurt or killed on the job and the employer will argue in the negligence case that they were an employee and not eligible to sue while arguing in the work comp case that they were ICs and not eligible for work comp. Ain't life grand.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I'll demur on whether the new rule is going to be worth anything. But the misclassification of workers is a HUGE issue.

A lot of times workers are paid cash under the table as "independent contractors" when they're obviously employees. It's a tax dodge by both the employer & the employee. This is especially so when the worker is not reporting his "IC" income and still receiving public benefits. Basically, he's drawing off of the tax base when he should be contributing to it.

PLUS, work comp protections don't apply to independent contractors so if someone gets hurt on the job they can be hung out to try. Although ICs can technically sue their employer for an injury caused by the employer's negligence, if they're ACTUALLY employees by the test, then the sole remedy is Work Comp.

I've done more than a couple of cases where someone has been seriously hurt or killed on the job and the employer will argue in the negligence case that they were an employee and not eligible to sue while arguing in the work comp case that they were ICs and not eligible for work comp. Ain't life grand.

Yeah that’s a mess with comp. Truckers etc. the comp regs. All yuck

 

[larsIU]

If they change to single payer system they won’t be able to pass the costs onto the private market. Long term it would just shift costs and put more financial burden on the middle class through inflation and taxes.

That's already happening and we're basically serfs to our employers to maintain what health benefits we have. I'm not saying there wouldn't be huge challenges and that we'd have to have a many years plan (10+) to roll it over.

Considering the state of Congress and our politics I also hold no delusion this will happen anytime soon. Sigh.

 

[larsIU]

If you want single payer for moral reasons, that’s fine. However, it’s not going to lead to growth or people in the middle class being better off.

1. Yes, there are moral reasons.
2. Efficiency reasons. No really, I believe this. Just b/c our federal government isn't currently held accountable doesn't mean it can't be.
3. If healthcare is availbale to every American, preventative care will increase, and over time cost will drop.
4. There are huge differences between the US and Europe that have nothing to do with healthcare. I think our base level of innovation and entrepreneurship would increase from it's already higher level. We don't have to have the stupid retirement plans/pension that got a lot of Europe in trouble in the mid aughts.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Most of Europe has single payer and haven’t had more success than the U.S. in entrepreneurship or innovation. Go through the list of newer top companies in the past several decades that are worth 100 million plus. I think there are only one or two from Europe. Not to mention they spend a lot less on military.

The notion that socializing businesses is going to lead to cheaper costs is nonsense. If you want single payer for moral reasons, that’s fine. However, it’s not going to lead to growth or people in the middle class being better off.

70 million people are doing gig work. In joe Biden’s America people need second jobs. Tightening up classifications will have a deleterious impact on so many trying to survive. Not everyone has a union gig. But Biden doesn’t understand, well, anything. He’s had a gov check for 50 years

 

[Baller23Boogie]

yeah in thinking about it the new emerging economy really is incongruent with our health insurance system. my new health insurance for the year is a thousand a month for just me and my minion. my ex wife switched jobs not terribly long ago and her cobra coverage for her and my daughter was going to be $1,500 a month. that's madness.

you know i hate biden and am no fan of trump, but one silver lining is after this election we should be done with the old guys. we need younger gov people who understand where we are going

Wanna bet?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Wanna bet?

No

 

[snarlcakes]

70 million people are doing gig work. In joe Biden’s America people need second jobs. Tightening up classifications will have a deleterious impact on so many trying to survive. Not everyone has a union gig. But Biden doesn’t understand, well, anything. He’s had a gov check for 50 years

I agree with the Biden part, which is why I don’t want to turn over more of the economy to the government. I also don’t want to pass costs onto the middle class so gig workers or entrepreneurs can make more money. They’re doing just fine and will continue to excel without want ends up being a government handout. It would also incentivize people to work (and produce) less.

The middle class has been shrinking the last 50 years because of the increase in spending by the government. Universal healthcare isn’t going to benefit myself or most middle class people. I would end up with one of three situations. 1) Lower costs, but worse healthcare (unlikely) 2) Similar healthcare with higher costs 3) Less healthcare with higher costs. My bet is on number 3.

You run a business and understand how incompetent Biden and Democrats are. I have no clue why you think it’s a reasonable idea to turn over more of the economy to them.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I agree with the Biden part, which is why I don’t want to turn over more of the economy to the government. I also don’t want to pass costs onto the middle class so gig workers or entrepreneurs can make more money. They’re doing just fine and will continue to excel without want ends up being a government handout. It would also incentivize people to work (and produce) less.

The middle class has been shrinking the last 50 years because of the increase in spending by the government. Universal healthcare isn’t going to benefit myself or most middle class people. I would end up with one of three situations. 1) Lower costs, but worse healthcare (unlikely) 2) Similar healthcare with higher costs 3) Less healthcare with higher costs. My bet is on number 3.

You run a business and understand how incompetent Biden and Democrats are. I have no clue why you think it’s a reasonable idea to turn over more of the economy to them.

No like Lars said not nationalized healthcare. A different system. I don’t want to turn anything over to gov.

 

[larsIU]

You run a business and understand how incompetent Biden and Democrats are. I have no clue why you think it’s a reasonable idea to turn over more of the economy to them.

He probably also understands the cost of healthcare to a small business. It's crippling.

There's a benefit there as well. Also, Medicare has the ability to alter the cost curve of healthcare costs more than any entity in America. So there's that too.

Why does Europe have equal or better health outcomes at a lower cost per person? Why would your health care be lesser? Would that even matter (assuming you're healthy).

Edit: and like MCM said. I only care about who PAYS for it, not who's ADMINISTERING it.

 

[snarlcakes]

Why does Europe have equal or better health outcomes at a lower cost per person?

Obesity plays a major role for sure. I haven’t read enough to give you answer past that.

Why would your health care be lesser? Would that even matter (assuming you're healthy).

If they tried to cut costs over time they would have to cut services or pay for Doctors. I would end up with less services or worse medical professionals (maybe that wouldn’t matter).

 

[mcmurtry66]

Obesity plays a major role for sure. I haven’t read enough to give you answer past that.

If they tried to cut costs over time they would have to cut services or pay for Doctors. I would end up with less services or worse medical professionals (maybe that wouldn’t matter).

i do believe pay reductions for doctors will impact hte quality of healthcare. as i've written before and everyone knows it takes a lot to become a doctor and financial remuneration is material in the decision to go through it

 

[larsIU]

i do believe pay reductions for doctors will impact hte quality of healthcare. as i've written before and everyone knows it takes a lot to become a doctor and financial remuneration is material in the decision to go through it

But if we tackle the cost of higher education as well............

 

[mcmurtry66]

But if we tackle the cost of higher education as well............

true and that is sort of going on already. i forgot about that so maybe i'm wrong re doctors' pay. nyu med school i believe is free and wash u is going free for half of its students

 

[larsIU]

true and that is sort of going on already. i forgot about that so maybe i'm wrong re doctors' pay. nyu med school i believe is free and wash u is going free for half of its students

Neither hospitals nor schools should look or behave like five star hotels.

 

[snarlcakes]

No like Lars said not nationalized healthcare. A different system. I don’t want to turn anything over to gov.

Like Obamacare? It didn’t lower costs for the middle class or small businesses. It benefited some people, but overall the middle class and upper classes had to pay more for less care. My deductible 4x practically overnight. It was sold that costs would lower, but it didn’t happen, which is my overall point. We can have universal healthcare, but no one is going to convince me it’s going to benefit the middle class or majority of people. There will be some winners (entrepreneurs), but there will be lots of losers as well.

Healthcare is complex, so maybe I’m wrong, and government can provide better coverage, for more people, at lower costs 🤷🏻‍♂️. Seems unlikely, though.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Neither hospitals nor schools should look or behave like five star hotels.

well the cafeterias are definitely one star

 

[mcmurtry66]

Like Obamacare? It didn’t lower costs for the middle class or small businesses. It benefited some people, but overall the middle class and upper classes had to pay more for less care. My deductible 4x practically overnight. It was sold that costs would lower, but it didn’t happen, which is my overall point. We can have universal healthcare, but no one is going to convince me it’s going to benefit the middle class. There will be some winners (entrepreneurs), but there will lots of losers, as well.

Healthcare is complex, so maybe I’m wrong, and government can provide better coverage, for more people, at lower costs 🤷🏻‍♂️. Seems unlikely, though.

i hear ya. and for sure on deductibles. they are insane. hell five figures with some plans. healthcare has gone to shit since obamacare. as i've said i still support it bc of pre-existing coverage but it's a mess.

i bet i've read more medical records and bills in my life than most doctors. we constantly hear about coverage without regard to costs. something is lost in translation. i get reimbursement rates but the cost of care depends upon whether you have medicaid/medicare, self-pay, private plan, group plan, on and on. it's absurd. or if you get someone who treats at a military base or somewhere the cost is next to nothing. a scan should be a scan should be a scan. it is complicated and i don't know all that goes into it. it's just one more mess

 

[UncleMark]

The middle class has been shrinking the last 50 years because of the increase in spending by the government.

C'mon, snarl, that's bullshit. The middle class has shrunk because our manfacturing base has been hollowed out. It started with cars, then appliances, then electronics, and now it's almost all consumer goods. None of those things are made here anymore.

Bloomington used to have RCA, GE, Westinghouse, and Otis. All are gone, along with the middle class jobs they provided. Cook, Baxter, and Catalent pay half of what those manufacturing jobs paid. If you're in health care or at IU in a white collar position you can do okay in this town, but otherwise it's a heavy lift.

As long as we demand cheap goods and don't give two shits where they're made, the middle class as we once knew it is gone.