You give….

[kkott]

Yogi played with Zeller 🤷🏼‍♂️

right. And how many NPOY awards did he win?

I forget that you're a Purdue guy and might need stuff explained to you: Smith has more help than Yogi did and therefore Yogi impacted his teams success more than Smith has. Smith has the luxury of tossing it to Edey, and every player cheating a step or 2 towards him, all the time. I think those IU teams might've been more well-rounded, but didn't have an player as individually impactful as Edey is.

 

[IUbball_lifer]

That maybe true, but there are other things to look at like W-L records and SOS. Yogi played on a loaded team as freshman, ranked No.1 won the BT went 29-7, their SOS was 8.39( good not great). As a sophomore IU was 17-15 overall and 7-11 in the BT and they had a poor SOS of 6.64! That's a record of 46-22 and 21-15 in the BT play with a SOS average of 7.52. Smiths record at Purdue so far is 41-8, 26-7 in BT play and 1 BT championship and BTT championship, and possible headed for a couple more BT trophies. Purdues SOS this year is 10.84, and their two average is 9.57! Yogi was good, but so is Braden, at least his results show he has played the best and has had great success! The real problem for IU is that they have to reach into the past history for comparisons, while Purdue is talking about today!

I didn’t bring Yogi up ahole. I was supporting that comparing Cupps to Smith was absurd. But one of your fellow Puke trolls had to go and say that Smith was better than Yogi. He isn’t. And your supposed analysis is so full of statistical error that doesn’t consider all kinds of other correlation variables that I’m done with your stupid ass.

 

[UTFO]

I didn’t bring Yogi up ahole. I was supporting that comparing Cupps to Smith was absurd. But one of your fellow Puke trolls had to go and say that Smith was better than Yogi. He isn’t. And your supposed analysis is so full of statistical error that doesn’t consider all kinds of other correlation variables that I’m done with your stupid ass.

I brought up Yogi, so my apologies.

And for the record obviously I think Smith is a great player.

2 more years and he may reach Yogi status!

 

[SqueakyClean]

right. And how many NPOY awards did he win?

I forget that you're a Purdue guy and might need stuff explained to you: Smith has more help than Yogi did

I mean, what you typed is accurate, but let's not sell that 2013 team short. Zeller was a 2nd team All American and the 4th pick in the draft. That team also had Oladipo who was a 1st team All American who was the 2nd pick in the draft.

 

[UTFO]

I mean, what you typed is accurate, but let's not sell that 2013 team short. Zeller was a 2nd team All American and the 4th pick in the draft. That team also had Oladipo who was a 1st team All American who was the 2nd pick in the draft.

That was our last "big" game. 2013 S16.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

right. And how many NPOY awards did he win?

I forget that you're a Purdue guy and might need stuff explained to you: Smith has more help than Yogi did and therefore Yogi impacted his teams success more than Smith has. Smith has the luxury of tossing it to Edey, and every player cheating a step or 2 towards him, all the time. I think those IU teams might've been more well-rounded, but didn't have a player as individually impactful as Edey is.

Uh oh.

The sobbing mob will be here soon

 

[bsmitty08]

right. And how many NPOY awards did he win?

I forget that you're a Purdue guy and might need stuff explained to you: Smith has more help than Yogi did and therefore Yogi impacted his teams success more than Smith has. Smith has the luxury of tossing it to Edey, and every player cheating a step or 2 towards him, all the time. I think those IU teams might've been more well-rounded, but didn't have a player as individually impactful as Edey is.

Iu was number 1 in the country that year with Zeller and Okadipo. Cut the crap on being a PU guy. I am a die hard iu fan that respects what they are doing. Nothing more.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Iu was number 1 in the country that year with Zeller and Okadipo. Cut the crap on being a PU guy. I am a die hard iu fan that respects what they are doing. Nothing more.

You switched back?

 

[bsmitty08]

You switched back?

Read my post. I can respect what Painter is doing and wish iu was doing the same thing. Iu has no culture and no plan for building a program. Zero

 

[CriticArisen]

Off topic-
This guy just set an NCAA record (granted ninth year of NCAA eligibility)-

Cameron McCormick (born April 2, 1998)[1] is an American footballtight end for the Miami Hurricanes.[2]
After suffering multiple season-ending injuries requiring surgeries and living through the COVID-19 pandemic, McCormick was granted his ninth year of NCAA eligibility extending through the 2024 NCAA Division I FBS football season in 2022.[3] He is thought to be the first football player to have been granted such eligibility.[4][5]

 

[kkott]

I mean, what you typed is accurate, but let's not sell that 2013 team short. Zeller was a 2nd team All American and the 4th pick in the draft. That team also had Oladipo who was a 1st team All American who was the 2nd pick in the draft.

I'm not selling them short, my contention is that they were a better all-around roster including Yogi, who I agree was a greater offensive threat than Braden is. So, defenses had to play IU players more straight up. With Purdue defenses are mostly geared to stopping/helping on Edey, so Smith's defenders are going to give him a bit more room, which allows him to get his shot off a little easier. He's also benefitting from Edey's screening to free him (ie. the offense he plays in helps him get better looks and more pts because they are constantly accounting for Edey).

 

[.Gerdis]

I'm not selling them short, my contention is that they were a better all-around roster including Yogi, who I agree was a greater offensive threat than Braden is. So, defenses had to play IU players more straight up. With Purdue defenses are mostly geared to stopping/helping on Edey, so Smith's defenders are going to give him a bit more room, which allows him to get his shot off a little easier. He's also benefitting from Edey's screening to free him (ie. the offense he plays in helps him get better looks and more pts because they are constantly accounting for Edey).

Yes, different rosters.

And Painter versus Crean.

 

[T.M.P.]

Yogi was a relentless defender? He averaged 0.8 steals per game

Smith is averaging 1.4 steals per game for his career so far and he’s a sophomore

A relentless defender yet didn’t average at least a full steal per game his first 2 years? Seems odd.

Steals are not a measure of good defense and everyone knows the knuckle dragger is a defensive liability. All you've done is shown that you truly know nothing about basketball or statistics. So, please quit typing and go away ... you reek of validation desperation and fat girl smegma.

 

[T.M.P.]

Yogi played with Zeller 🤷🏼‍♂️

And sucked that year ..

 

[T.M.P.]

right. And how many NPOY awards did he win?

I forget that you're a Purdue guy and might need stuff explained to you: Smith has more help than Yogi did and therefore Yogi impacted his teams success more than Smith has. Smith has the luxury of tossing it to Edey, and every player cheating a step or 2 towards him, all the time. I think those IU teams might've been more well-rounded, but didn't have an player as individually impactful as Edey is.

Edey is a physical and statistical outlier .. a once in an era type player. The last player like him statistically and physically was Shaq.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Seems like the septic tank needs to be pumped again.

Three days later and they are still here sobbing for the validation and respect they will never earn.

 

[Vern Pain]

I didn’t bring Yogi up ahole. I was supporting that comparing Cupps to Smith was absurd. But one of your fellow Puke trolls had to go and say that Smith was better than Yogi. He isn’t. And your supposed analysis is so full of statistical error that doesn’t consider all kinds of other correlation variables that I’m done with your stupid ass.

Well, IIRC, Ronnie Johnson was better than Yogi so....

 

[Vern Pain]

Read my post. I can respect what Painter is doing and wish iu was doing the same thing. Iu has no culture and no plan for building a program. Zero

So if you look at 2012, 2013, 2014, Painter was languishing in a period of "no culture" or "bad culture". It was his era of Johnson Ball. Terone, Anthony, Ronnie (better than Yogi) Johnson. He seemed to change his recruiting strategy and began finding pieces that better fit his methods.

For you to say "no plan" for building a culture would say you're intimately connected to what goes on at Cook Hall. Color me skeptical.

 

[bsmitty08]

So if you look at 2012, 2013, 2014, Painter was languishing in a period of "no culture" or "bad culture". It was his era of Johnson Ball. Terone, Anthony, Ronnie (better than Yogi) Johnson. He seemed to change his recruiting strategy and began finding pieces that better fit his methods.

For you to say "no plan" for building a culture would say you're intimately connected to what goes on at Cook Hall. Color me skeptical.

You understand what building a culture is right?
How your team plays, acts, responds to adversity, the type of kid you recruit, your system, etc..
Painter still had his culture imbedded in that program. Explain how Woodson is building a program please. I would like to know.

 

[Vern Pain]

You understand what building a culture is right?
How your team plays, acts, responds to adversity, the type of kid you recruit, your system, etc..
Painter still had his culture imbedded in that program. Explain how Woodson is building a program please. I would like to know.

Painter had an advantage in that he was trying to continue a culture that was already "embedded". As noted above, he made some missteps for a few years. At least two, if not all three of the Johnson's I mentioned ended up leaving the program. Bryson Scott ended up leaving as well. Painter seemed to do a reset in terms of what he was recruiting.

I am not privy to the conversations that occur at Cook Hall so I can't offer insight into what plan might be in place. Just as you can't definitively say "there is no plan".

 

[bsmitty08]

Painter had an advantage in that he was trying to continue a culture that was already "embedded". As noted above, he made some missteps for a few years. At least two, if not all three of the Johnson's I mentioned ended up leaving the program. Bryson Scott ended up leaving as well. Painter seemed to do a reset in terms of what he was recruiting.

I am not privy to the conversations that occur at Cook Hall so I can't offer insight into what plan might be in place. Just as you can't definitively say "there is no plan".

Well he definitely doesn’t have one yet

 

[Boilerball3]

Steals are not a measure of good defense and everyone knows the knuckle dragger is a defensive liability. All you've done is shown that you truly know nothing about basketball or statistics. So, please quit typing and go away ... you reek of validation desperation and fat girl smegma.

That’s just an ignorant post, not surprised coming from you though.

 

[bailey777]

those were days i liked. That two year davis run was great.

 

[demunn]

Painter had an advantage in that he was trying to continue a culture that was already "embedded". As noted above, he made some missteps for a few years. At least two, if not all three of the Johnson's I mentioned ended up leaving the program. Bryson Scott ended up leaving as well. Painter seemed to do a reset in terms of what he was recruiting.

I am not privy to the conversations that occur at Cook Hall so I can't offer insight into what plan might be in place. Just as you can't definitively say "there is no plan".

If you can't see it, it doesn't exist after three years. What you can see (lack of hustle/energy/focus, bush league tactics, poor fundamentals, inconsistency, absence of chemistry, bench indifference) suggests that if there's a culture plan, it's not being observably executed.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

That’s just an ignorant post, not surprised coming from you though.

His isn't an "ignorant post" at all, but it is predictable that a person such as you that lives their fandom trolling the boards of their rival all while their own team is #2 in the nation...would struggle with understanding it.

 

[Vern Pain]

If you can't see it, it doesn't exist after three years. What you can see (lack of hustle/energy/focus, bush league tactics, poor fundamentals, inconsistency, absence of chemistry, bench indifference) suggests that if there's a culture plan, it's not being observably executed.

I can see what you're saying and I especially concur with "if there's a culture plan, it's not being observably executed".

Again, I'll go back to what I said about Painter / Purdue during those early to mid 2010's teams. He had his "culture" but seemed to be bringing in guys who weren't a fit. During that period, his teams missed the NCAAT a couple years in a row. One of those years they played in some pay to play tournament and finished runner up to Santa Clara. It was a fun time to lurk the GBI board and read all the fire Painter now kinds of posts. Apparently the Athletic Department took a more pragmatic approach and if I'm not mistaken, some of those calling for Painter's scalp are now MP's biggest boosters.

Here's an honest question, when you look at the previous two years teams, do you see a lack of cohesiveness, lack of enthusiasm, etc? Did they not meet our expectations? Sure, but I certainly didn't see anything toxic there.

Can Woody turn it around next season? I don't know. Fact is, I'll be pulling for him to do so because I want my university to succeed in athletics and I'm pretty sure he'll still be coach.

 

[bailey777]

If you can't see it, it doesn't exist after three years. What you can see (lack of hustle/energy/focus, bush league tactics, poor fundamentals, inconsistency, absence of chemistry, bench indifference) suggests that if there's a culture plan, it's not being observably executed.

It is the quinn buckner plan take care of your buddies.

 

[demunn]

I can see what you're saying and I especially concur with "if there's a culture plan, it's not being observably executed".

Again, I'll go back to what I said about Painter / Purdue during those early to mid 2010's teams. He had his "culture" but seemed to be bringing in guys who weren't a fit. During that period, his teams missed the NCAAT a couple years in a row. One of those years they played in some pay to play tournament and finished runner up to Santa Clara. It was a fun time to lurk the GBI board and read all the fire Painter now kinds of posts. Apparently the Athletic Department took a more pragmatic approach and if I'm not mistaken, some of those calling for Painter's scalp are now MP's biggest boosters.

Here's an honest question, when you look at the previous two years teams, do you see a lack of cohesiveness, lack of enthusiasm, etc? Did they not meet our expectations? Sure, but I certainly didn't see anything toxic there.

Can Woody turn it around next season? I don't know. Fact is, I'll be pulling for him to do so because I want my university to succeed in athletics and I'm pretty sure he'll still be coach.

Here's where I see Woody missing the mark if there is a culture plan - He has an opportunity to articulate it every post-game presser. I want to hear things like "what Xavier did isn't Indiana basketball", "Indiana basketball is execution", "Indiana basket is ___ and that's what I expect". Nearly every organization has a clear mission, values and expected behaviors--it's not clear to me what that is because it's never stated and we don't see what we think it is on the court.

To be fair to Woody, this was also nonexistent with Miller. I do think there was a lack of cohesiveness and what carried us and masked the lack of cohesiveness was two extremely talented first round picks. I guess I wouldn't call it actively toxic but I wouldn't characterize the last two years as particularly great basketball. Better execution for sure but this program has had an air of complacency and lack of urgency for a long time.

It's certainly much harder these days and it's a way different formula than Knight was able to use in the culture of the 70s and 80s. My kid bailed on his high school sport because parents/kids are so focused on NIL and what the program can do for their kid (and it's a 1A/2A high school for God's sake) he said it just wasn't fun anymore.

What I observed in his summer travel and HS program (the coach actually had a parent meeting to brainstorm the lack of teamwork/chemistry with the kids) is that coaches have so much pressure to win quickly, it's impacting their ability to coach and teach. Consequently, the coaches are seeking that "finished product" and many of these quasi-elite kids don't want to be coached, they've been told they're entitled to the next level with no right of passage. I think Painter is succeeding in maybe getting more "coachable" kids.

I understand the whole NIL thing but I think it's going to evolve into a separate elite division where you have 2-4 conferences that supplant the NCAA and basically have their own semi-pro league. I think anything below a large Big10, ACC, SEC, Big12 school is going to find themselves in a Division 1-A situation in the near future as these large conferences--certainly in football but wouldn't see basketball following far behind.

 

[.Gerdis]

Here's where I see Woody missing the mark if there is a culture plan - He has an opportunity to articulate it every post-game presser. I want to hear things like "what Xavier did isn't Indiana basketball", "Indiana basketball is execution", "Indiana basket is ___ and that's what I expect". Nearly every organization has a clear mission, values and expected behaviors--it's not clear to me what that is because it's never stated and we don't see what we think it is on the court.

To be fair to Woody, this was also nonexistent with Miller. I do think there was a lack of cohesiveness and what carried us and masked the lack of cohesiveness was two extremely talented first round picks. I guess I wouldn't call it actively toxic but I wouldn't characterize the last two years as particularly great basketball. Better execution for sure but this program has had an air of complacency and lack of urgency for a long time.

It's certainly much harder these days and it's a way different formula than Knight was able to use in the culture of the 70s and 80s. My kid bailed on his high school sport because parents/kids are so focused on NIL and what the program can do for their kid (and it's a 1A/2A high school for God's sake) he said it just wasn't fun anymore.

What I observed in his summer travel and HS program (the coach actually had a parent meeting to brainstorm the lack of teamwork/chemistry with the kids) is that coaches have so much pressure to win quickly, it's impacting their ability to coach and teach. Consequently, the coaches are seeking that "finished product" and many of these quasi-elite kids don't want to be coached, they've been told they're entitled to the next level with no right of passage. I think Painter is succeeding in maybe getting more "coachable" kids.

I understand the whole NIL thing but I think it's going to evolve into a separate elite division where you have 2-4 conferences that supplant the NCAA and basically have their own semi-pro league. I think anything below a large Big10, ACC, SEC, Big12 school is going to find themselves in a Division 1-A situation in the near future as these large conferences--certainly in football but wouldn't see basketball following far behind.

I’m not sure that it’s an issue with lack of culture, or that woody isn’t executing a culture plan: it may just be that our culture is broken.

Who are we and who do we want to be? And, how successfully can we emulate that program?

I feel like we are chasing the wrong model (Kentucky?).

 

[Vern Pain]

Here's where I see Woody missing the mark if there is a culture plan - He has an opportunity to articulate it every post-game presser. I want to hear things like "what Xavier did isn't Indiana basketball", "Indiana basketball is execution", "Indiana basket is ___ and that's what I expect". Nearly every organization has a clear mission, values and expected behaviors--it's not clear to me what that is because it's never stated and we don't see what we think it is on the court.

To be fair to Woody, this was also nonexistent with Miller. I do think there was a lack of cohesiveness and what carried us and masked the lack of cohesiveness was two extremely talented first round picks. I guess I wouldn't call it actively toxic but I wouldn't characterize the last two years as particularly great basketball. Better execution for sure but this program has had an air of complacency and lack of urgency for a long time.

It's certainly much harder these days and it's a way different formula than Knight was able to use in the culture of the 70s and 80s. My kid bailed on his high school sport because parents/kids are so focused on NIL and what the program can do for their kid (and it's a 1A/2A high school for God's sake) he said it just wasn't fun anymore.

What I observed in his summer travel and HS program (the coach actually had a parent meeting to brainstorm the lack of teamwork/chemistry with the kids) is that coaches have so much pressure to win quickly, it's impacting their ability to coach and teach. Consequently, the coaches are seeking that "finished product" and many of these quasi-elite kids don't want to be coached, they've been told they're entitled to the next level with no right of passage. I think Painter is succeeding in maybe getting more "coachable" kids.

I understand the whole NIL thing but I think it's going to evolve into a separate elite division where you have 2-4 conferences that supplant the NCAA and basically have their own semi-pro league. I think anything below a large Big10, ACC, SEC, Big12 school is going to find themselves in a Division 1-A situation in the near future as these large conferences--certainly in football but wouldn't see basketball following far behind.

Fair enough. There's no question about the "air of complacency ".

There have been a couple deals with X where Woody simply said, I'm not going to talk about how we deal with things internally. I know that with his reckless driving on Walnut Street, X was not able to have a car. Maybe that's been waived by now but that was the deal initially.

Being on campus every day, I can tell you that last season, virtually everyone in the team hung out almost all the time. I can tell you that there's a couple guys on this year's team that I really never see hanging with teammates. Does that mean anything? Who knows? I will say that last season's team had some big, outgoing personalities. Some of the guys now are pretty stoic. Does that project lack of enthusiasm?

 

[choptalk]

I thought I read here that Cupps is Smith but with a higher bball IQ

Is that like comparing RJ to Yogi. Always found that comparison downright stupid. Would have loved to have Yogi.

 

[Boilerpointe81]

Is that like comparing RJ to Yogi. Always found that comparison downright stupid. Would have loved to have Yogi.

Yogi was a royal pain in the ass so, sure, would have loved to have him!

 

[Vern Pain]

Is that like comparing RJ to Yogi. Always found that comparison downright stupid. Would have loved to have Yogi.

But Ronnie could "put some sauce on it". I don't know if Yogi did that.

 

[Joetboiler]

Steals are not a measure of good defense and everyone knows the knuckle dragger is a defensive liability. All you've done is shown that you truly know nothing about basketball or statistics. So, please quit typing and go away ... you reek of validation desperation and fat girl smegma.

Smith had 4 more steals against Minnesota.