The trial America needs

[Bowlmania]

This excellent piece may be behind a paywall, so here are two key paragraphs:

"At the same time, however, a successful federal trial would strip Trump’s defenders of key talking points — that his voter fraud and vote manipulation claims have never been fully tested, that the House Jan. 6 committee was nothing but a one-sided show trial and that a proper cross-examination would expose the weakness of the government’s claims. Trump will have his opportunity to challenge the government’s case. His lawyers will have the ability to cross-examine opposing witnesses. We will see his best defense, and a jury will decide whether the prosecution prevails."

"Millions of Americans believe today that Joe Biden stole the presidency. They believe a series of demonstrable, provable lies, and their belief in those lies is shaking their faith in our republic and, by extension, risking the very existence of our democracy. There is no sure way to shake their convictions, especially if they are convinced that Trump is the innocent victim of a dark and malign deep state. But the judicial system can expose his claims to exacting scrutiny, and that scrutiny has the potential to change those minds that are open to the truth."

Opinion | The Trial America Needs

The special counsel Jack Smith’s case against Donald Trump on charges related to the 2020 election will not be easy. But it is necessary.

www.nytimes.com

 

[DrHoops]

This excellent piece may be behind a paywall, so here are two key paragraphs:

"At the same time, however, a successful federal trial would strip Trump’s defenders of key talking points — that his voter fraud and vote manipulation claims have never been fully tested, that the House Jan. 6 committee was nothing but a one-sided show trial and that a proper cross-examination would expose the weakness of the government’s claims. Trump will have his opportunity to challenge the government’s case. His lawyers will have the ability to cross-examine opposing witnesses. We will see his best defense, and a jury will decide whether the prosecution prevails."

"Millions of Americans believe today that Joe Biden stole the presidency. They believe a series of demonstrable, provable lies, and their belief in those lies is shaking their faith in our republic and, by extension, risking the very existence of our democracy. There is no sure way to shake their convictions, especially if they are convinced that Trump is the innocent victim of a dark and malign deep state. But the judicial system can expose his claims to exacting scrutiny, and that scrutiny has the potential to change those minds that are open to the truth."

Opinion | The Trial America Needs

The special counsel Jack Smith’s case against Donald Trump on charges related to the 2020 election will not be easy. But it is necessary.

www.nytimes.com

There are 2 words that will always take precedence with MAGAs; Deep State

It doesn’t matter what the facts are, their feelings are what matters.

Hillary was right; they’re deplorable.

 

[Hank Reardon]

This excellent piece may be behind a paywall, so here are two key paragraphs:

"At the same time, however, a successful federal trial would strip Trump’s defenders of key talking points — that his voter fraud and vote manipulation claims have never been fully tested, that the House Jan. 6 committee was nothing but a one-sided show trial and that a proper cross-examination would expose the weakness of the government’s claims. Trump will have his opportunity to challenge the government’s case. His lawyers will have the ability to cross-examine opposing witnesses. We will see his best defense, and a jury will decide whether the prosecution prevails."

"Millions of Americans believe today that Joe Biden stole the presidency. They believe a series of demonstrable, provable lies, and their belief in those lies is shaking their faith in our republic and, by extension, risking the very existence of our democracy. There is no sure way to shake their convictions, especially if they are convinced that Trump is the innocent victim of a dark and malign deep state. But the judicial system can expose his claims to exacting scrutiny, and that scrutiny has the potential to change those minds that are open to the truth."

Opinion | The Trial America Needs

The special counsel Jack Smith’s case against Donald Trump on charges related to the 2020 election will not be easy. But it is necessary.

www.nytimes.com

The problem is that those who already believe all of that aren't gong to be swayed by any indictment or trial. As the last sentence says, it could only change minds open to the truth. I'm not sure the cultish Trump followers fit that description.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The problem is that those who already believe all of that aren't gong to be swayed by any indictment or trial. As the last sentence says, it could only change minds open to the truth. I'm not sure the cultish Trump followers fit that description.

It’s one more bullet. The vapid biased Jan 6 committee was a joke. A movie. All of those things that were missing from those stupid hearings will be present in a trial and discovery and legitimize it

 

[twenty02]

This argument is based upon the precept that loyal Trump support is based on anything approaching dry logic, rather than Pavlovian emotional response.

 

[twenty02]

From the Nate Cohn piece mentioned in the French Op-Ed:


The MAGA base, defined

It’s populist. It’s conservative. It’s blue collar. It’s convinced the nation is on the verge of catastrophe. And it’s exceptionally loyal to Donald Trump.



As defined here, members of Mr. Trump’s MAGA base represent 37 percent of the Republican electorate. They “strongly” support him in the Republican primary and have a “very favorable” view of him.



The MAGA base doesn’t support Mr. Trump in spite of his flaws. It supports him because it doesn’t seem to believe he has flaws.



Zero percent — not a single one of the 319 respondents in this MAGA category — said he had committed serious federal crimes. A mere 2 percent said he “did something wrong” in his handling of classified documents. More than 90 percent said Republicans needed to stand behind him in the face of the investigations.

​

 

[Ty Webb iu]

There are 2 words that will always take precedence with MAGAs; Deep State

It doesn’t matter what the facts are, their feelings are what matters.

Hillary was right; they’re deplorable.

Hillary has never been "right". Never.

 

[Bowlmania]

The problem is that those who already believe all of that aren't gong to be swayed by any indictment or trial. As the last sentence says, it could only change minds open to the truth. I'm not sure the cultish Trump followers fit that description.

Agreed, but two things:

1) Trump supporters. I don't believe that all of Trump's support falls within the cult. Some, for example, are simply lifelong Republican partisans who can't conceive of voting for a Democratic candidate. In light of Trump's legal entanglements (and, in particular, this indictment) and the chaos that a Trump second term is certain to bring, these people may opt to stay home on Election Day. It's gotta be hard for a clear-thinking person (that excludes the cultists) to be enthused about voting for a candidate for President of the United States who tried to subvert the will of the voters, attempted to interfere with our time-honored tradition of the peaceful transition of power, and extended his middle finger to free and fair elections and democracy.

2) Independents. Some independents have been swayed by the false equivalencies. I know, because there are some in my extended family. For example, "yes, Trump mishandled classified documents but so did Biden and Pence." "Yes, Trump paid off a porn star and a Playmate and probably helped Weisselberg cook the books, but look at "Briben" and the Ukraine prosecutor. Very shady." But there's no possible "whatabout" with yesterday's indictment. No one can advance a false equivalence for this shit. There's no precedent for what Trump is charged with. No US president ever tried to stage a self-coup and unlawfully remain in power. That's the stuff of strongman regimes, and antithetical to our foundational beliefs and values.

This shit is our generation's Watergate, but it's much worse than Watergate.

This prosecution could be an epiphany for thousands (or more) of independents, including those in swing states. A shift of even just a few thousand votes in these critical states, where the margins have been small of late, could be huge.

 

[hoot1]

It’s one more bullet. The vapid biased Jan 6 committee was a joke. A movie. All of those things that were missing from those stupid hearings will be present in a trial and discovery and legitimize it

MM66, House and Senate committees aren't the same as in the past when a president or his administration is the subject of the query.

There was a time when both Republicans and Democrats in Congress took the balance of powers between the branches seriously. Members of Congress put their constitutional checks and balance duties above politics.

Take the Watergate committee for example, you couldn't tell the difference between the Republicans ans Democrats as both parties felt obligated to find the truth.

These days with each party standing behind their president and the other party opposing him, no matter what, the end results could be disastrous. Disastrous as the power shifts to the executive branch. A president can simply claim a query is politically motivated when the other party has a majority. When his party is in control a legitimate query just doesn't happen.

 

[zeke4ahs]

It’s one more bullet. The vapid biased Jan 6 committee was a joke. A movie. All of those things that were missing from those stupid hearings will be present in a trial and discovery and legitimize it

I think the Jan. 6 committee unearthed things that led to yesterday’s indictments.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Hillary has never been "right". Never.

Except she was pretty much right about everything, regarding Trump and his supporters.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I think the Jan. 6 committee unearthed things that led to yesterday’s indictments.

That could be

 

[Cortez88]

The issue with ardent Trump supporters hasn’t changed. They just don’t care about integrity, ethics, or morality when it comes to Trump. They all knew he was a conman who ripped off contractors and business partners. They knew he was a pathological liar. They knew he didn’t care about anyone but himself. They just don’t care.

They also are bad faith operators. You can see that on here daily when they are outraged by the alleged conduct of THE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

From the Nate Cohn piece mentioned in the French Op-Ed:


The MAGA base, defined

It’s populist. It’s conservative. It’s blue collar. It’s convinced the nation is on the verge of catastrophe. And it’s exceptionally loyal to Donald Trump.



As defined here, members of Mr. Trump’s MAGA base represent 37 percent of the Republican electorate. They “strongly” support him in the Republican primary and have a “very favorable” view of him.



The MAGA base doesn’t support Mr. Trump in spite of his flaws. It supports him because it doesn’t seem to believe he has flaws.



Zero percent — not a single one of the 319 respondents in this MAGA category — said he had committed serious federal crimes. A mere 2 percent said he “did something wrong” in his handling of classified documents. More than 90 percent said Republicans needed to stand behind him in the face of the investigations.

​

The blindly loyal choose to be willfully ignorant?

 

[mcmurtry66]

The blindly loyal choose to be willfully ignorant?

Dc is a game changer. Better hope his guys can broker pleas

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Dc is a game changer. Better hope his guys can broker pleas

Some of the Dream Team are blindly loyal and will go down on the USS TRUMP. DANC, for example, believes some absurd inaccuracies due to his blind loyalty and willful ignorance. I think he’s smart enough to understand most of what be professes to believe is false, but he doesn’t want to face the truth. You’re experiencing what I consider his bad faith argument style, but does he really believe what he posts or not? I honestly don’t know.

 

[hoot1]

The blindly loyal choose to be willfully ignorant?

Aloha, are they blindly ignorant of Trump's flaws or prefer a less than perfect president to a woke big government movement they fear is taking America down the wrong path ?

Trump speaks to their fears.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Aloha, are they blindly ignorant of Trump's flaws or prefer a less than perfect president to a woke big government movement they fear is taking America down the wrong path ?

Trump speaks to their fears.

I don’t know, but it’s frustrating to deal with so many people that believe objectively absurd things. Significant things, at that.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Some of the Dream Team are blindly loyal and will go down on the USS TRUMP. DANC, for example, believes some absurdly inaccuracies due to his blind loyalty and willful ignorance. I think he’s smart enough to understand most of what be professes to believe is false, but he doesn’t want to face the truth. You’re experiencing what I consider his bad faith argument style, but does he really believe what he posts or not? I honestly don’t know.

They think dc is corrupt, Biden is getting preferential treatment, and trump is getting picked on. All can be true. But it doesn’t absolve trump

 

[GetFreshCrew]

Aloha, are they blindly ignorant of Trump's flaws or prefer a less than perfect president to a woke big government movement they fear is taking America down the wrong path ?

Trump speaks to their fears.

I think the idea/concept of Trump brought many of those people strength and power (in their own minds)...many of those folks felt completely powerless against the gov't and the idea/concept of Trump gave them hope, something to cling to, something to rally behind 1000%. Unfortunately for them, they didn't get the idea/concept of Trump...they got the actual man with all the warts that go with him. Methinks many of them cannot (or refuse) to see the difference between the concept they were sold on and what they actually got.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

They think dc is corrupt, Biden is getting preferential treatment, and trump is getting picked on. All can be true. But it doesn’t absolve trump

We can do Biden vs. Trump on classified documents. They are being treated the same in that neither are being charged for improper possession for those that were returned. That is simple and accurate.

The HRC case is wildly different than the Trump case. The most they could have charged her with was gross negligence in handling classified information, and I think they should have done so. The double standard there is if she was in the military she could have faced court-martial and dishonorable discharge. As a civilian she got nothing. Possibly obstruction, but that was a much weaker case in my opinion, but I’d have been good with that charge too. Trump’s case includes intent, obvious obstruction and more. He will have a trial and we’ll see the rule of law play out. As we should.

There is still no crime tied to THE BIG GUY in the THE LITTLE GUY probe. If they get there it’s an impeachment thing because if the ill-advised DOJ rule of not indicting Presidents.

 

[Cthulhu85]

I was going to consider abstaining from the election until that Bitch said that. She didn't mean just Maga. She was talking about anyone who wasn't voting for her. But then I figured I had to vote against her no matter what.

Hillary has never been "right". Never.

 

[SqueakyClean]

I’m pretty sure @mcmurtry66 has a fresh patent on THE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY.

You are not using the correct font, so you could probably chalk it up as a parody and not get sued.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

From the Nate Cohn piece mentioned in the French Op-Ed:


The MAGA base, defined

It’s populist. It’s conservative. It’s blue collar. It’s convinced the nation is on the verge of catastrophe. And it’s exceptionally loyal to Donald Trump.



As defined here, members of Mr. Trump’s MAGA base represent 37 percent of the Republican electorate. They “strongly” support him in the Republican primary and have a “very favorable” view of him.



The MAGA base doesn’t support Mr. Trump in spite of his flaws. It supports him because it doesn’t seem to believe he has flaws.



Zero percent — not a single one of the 319 respondents in this MAGA category — said he had committed serious federal crimes. A mere 2 percent said he “did something wrong” in his handling of classified documents. More than 90 percent said Republicans needed to stand behind him in the face of the investigations.

​

I really don't talk to many ultra magas but many of the semi-reasonable magas acknowledge he has flaws but they support him anyway.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Hillary has never been "right". Never.

Hillary's use of the term "deplorables" was the single biggest political gaffe in my lifetime.

It elected Trump.

 

[snarlcakes]

Aloha, are they blindly ignorant of Trump's flaws or prefer a less than perfect president to a woke big government movement they fear is taking America down the wrong path ?

Trump speaks to their fears.

It's much more simpler than that for most people, in my opinion. They don't particular like Democrats or their polices. I wake up everyday dumbfounded their are liberals who voted for Biden. I just assume you like his polices. I think it's insane, but you're not me.

If Trump was actually conservative, liked Bitcoin, and wasn't a wimp, on Covid, I'd vote for him in 2024 (assuming my options were Biden or Trump). Governmental polices have a major impact on my life. Mean tweets or lack of character, not so much.

 

[SqueakyClean]

Hillary's use of the term "deplorables" was the single biggest political gaffe in my lifetime.

It elected Trump.

Howard Dean says "Here, hold my HEAAAARRRRRGGGGG!!!!"

(Not that I am implying that Howard Dean's gaffe was more influential, I am just of the opinion that Hillary's email issues were far more significant than the deplorables comment, at least with regards as to why Trump was elected).

 

[UncleMark]

I was going to consider abstaining from the election until that Bitch said that. She didn't mean just Maga. She was talking about anyone who wasn't voting for her. But then I figured I had to vote against her no matter what.

No, she wasn't. She specifically talked about two different baskets of Trump supporters, only one of which was the Deplorables.

 

[Lucy01]

No, she wasn't. She specifically talked about two different baskets of Trump supporters, only one of which was the Deplorables.

Mark I am disappointed with your glee about Trump’s misfortunes.

 

[UncleMark]

Mark I am disappointed with your glee about Trump’s misfortunes.

I'll be gleeful when I see him with his hands cuffed behind him.

 

[hoot1]

It's much more simpler than that for most people, in my opinion. They don't particular like Democrats or their polices. I wake up everyday dumbfounded their are liberals who voted for Biden. I just assume you like his polices. I think it's insane, but you're not me.

If Trump was actually conservative, liked Bitcoin, and wasn't a wimp, on Covid, I'd vote for him in 2024 (assuming my options were Biden or Trump). Governmental polices have a major impact on my life. Mean tweets or lack of character, not so much.

SC, curious about which government policies have a major impact on your life.

 

[Ty Webb iu]

The issue with ardent Trump supporters hasn’t changed. They just don’t care about integrity, ethics, or morality when it comes to Trump. They all knew he was a conman who ripped off contractors and business partners. They knew he was a pathological liar. They knew he didn’t care about anyone but himself. They just don’t care.

They also are bad faith operators. You can see that on here daily when they are outraged by the alleged conduct of THE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY.

The problem is nearly every politician is a con man in some way, shape or form.

 

[Ty Webb iu]

Some of the Dream Team are blindly loyal and will go down on the USS TRUMP. DANC, for example, believes some absurdly inaccuracies due to his blind loyalty and willful ignorance. I think he’s smart enough to understand most of what be professes to believe is false, but he doesn’t want to face the truth. You’re experiencing what I consider his bad faith argument style, but does he really believe what he posts or not? I honestly don’t know.

You understand people with TDS have no credibility on anything Trump. And you definitely have TDS.

 

[Ty Webb iu]

I think the idea/concept of Trump brought many of those people strength and power (in their own minds)...many of those folks felt completely powerless against the gov't and the idea/concept of Trump gave them hope, something to cling to, something to rally behind 1000%. Unfortunately for them, they didn't get the idea/concept of Trump...they got the actual man with all the warts that go with him. Methinks many of them cannot (or refuse) to see the difference between the concept they were sold on and what they actually got.

That's not it. McM was much closer to correct in his earlier post.

 

[Bowlmania]

You understand people with TDS have no credibility on anything Trump. And you definitely have TDS.

And your head is buried in the sand.

I'm assuming you're another one who hasn't read the indictment.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Howard Dean says "Here, hold my HEAAAARRRRRGGGGG!!!!"

(Not that I am implying that Howard Dean's gaffe was more influential, I am just of the opinion that Hillary's email issues were far more significant than the deplorables comment, at least with regards as to why Trump was elected).

They didn't help but I called the election on Deplorables night. So arrogant and so stupid.

 

[Lucy01]

And your head is buried in the sand.

I'm assuming you're another one who hasn't read the indictment.

And I suppose you have? Only an attorney would do that!

 

[CO. Hoosier]

This excellent piece may be behind a paywall, so here are two key paragraphs:

"At the same time, however, a successful federal trial would strip Trump’s defenders of key talking points — that his voter fraud and vote manipulation claims have never been fully tested, that the House Jan. 6 committee was nothing but a one-sided show trial and that a proper cross-examination would expose the weakness of the government’s claims. Trump will have his opportunity to challenge the government’s case. His lawyers will have the ability to cross-examine opposing witnesses. We will see his best defense, and a jury will decide whether the prosecution prevails."

"Millions of Americans believe today that Joe Biden stole the presidency. They believe a series of demonstrable, provable lies, and their belief in those lies is shaking their faith in our republic and, by extension, risking the very existence of our democracy. There is no sure way to shake their convictions, especially if they are convinced that Trump is the innocent victim of a dark and malign deep state. But the judicial system can expose his claims to exacting scrutiny, and that scrutiny has the potential to change those minds that are open to the truth."

Opinion | The Trial America Needs

The special counsel Jack Smith’s case against Donald Trump on charges related to the 2020 election will not be easy. But it is necessary.

www.nytimes.com

How do we get past the 51 former intelligence officials and the deliberate significant mass media censorship of important news? The whole 2020 election was an asymmetrical attack on democracy.

And Russian collusion!

If we are going to criminalize political lying and censorship, and be fair about prosecution, we are going to need a much bigger criminal justice system.

 

[Ty Webb iu]

And your head is buried in the sand.

I'm assuming you're another one who hasn't read the indictment.

No to your 1st sentence. Yes, to the 2nd. Why would I read it? I have no opinion on the subject, yet. My comment was about Aloha. Nothing he says about Trump matters. He has TDS.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

You understand people with TDS have no credibility on anything Trump. And you definitely have TDS.

Does that mean Totally logical, Damned objective, and Superbly rational? It must.