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Is the Document case reaching a critical juncture?

Two other sailors took the same pictures and didn't get sentenced. The difference was the one sentenced destroyed evidence after the FBI met with him.

We punished a Sailor with a reduction in rank from E6 to E5 and restriction to the ship for 30 days for less than what HRC and her staff did by mishandling classified information in her unauthorized and nonsecere unclassified email. Our Sailor took Confidential ship movement information, put it in unclassified emails and sent it to others off the ship. That’s low level classification, but it’s classified and can’t be sent that way. If he’d sent TS/SAP information, as HRC and her staff did, he would have had a Courts Martial rather than Non-Judicial Punishment (NJP) and his punishment most likely would have included prison. We do not mess around with this stuff. Elected politicians get away with criminal behavior and they should not.
 
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Hey you seem to be a really great new addition to the WC. Polite, thoughtful, intellectual! Thanks for your contribution.

He's just playing the board villain so he can unite the rest of the posters against him lol
 
That's becoming more of a possibility. Cannon seems to come up with a new delaying tactic regularly. This case may make or break her career, but it seems like she's wanting to make a career out of it.



Understood. If she's able to give the jury instructions anything like she has outlined, she might as well just dismiss it altogether. The prosecution has no chance -- and no recourse -- if it gets to the jury and those are their instructions.
I can't tell if you are channeling your inner Joy Reed , or Terry Gross from NPR...
 
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We punished a Sailor with a reduction in rank from E6 to E5 and restriction to the ship for 30 days for less than what HRC and her staff did by mishandling classified information in her unauthorized and nonsecere unclassified email. Our Sailor took Confidential ship movement information, put it in unclassified emails and sent it to others off the ship. That’s low level classification, but it’s classified and can’t be sent that way. If he’d sent TS/SAP information, as HRC and her staff did, he would have had a Courts Martial rather than Non-Judicial Punishment (NJP) and his punishment most likely would have included prison. We do not mess around with this stuff. Elected politicians get away with criminal behavior and they should not.

I don't disagree. I am just saying that the Sailor CO mentioned had an aggravated issue, he destroyed evidence. That is the key part of Trump's case. The moving of the boxes is what makes it more of a deal than it otherwise would have been. If your Sailor had destroyed evidence, he may well have had more than NJP. In almost every case I have read about, covering up is what transforms these cases.
 
That's becoming more of a possibility. Cannon seems to come up with a new delaying tactic regularly. This case may make or break her career, but it seems like she's wanting to make a career out of it.



Understood. If she's able to give the jury instructions anything like she has outlined, she might as well just dismiss it altogether. The prosecution has no chance -- and no recourse -- if it gets to the jury and those are their instructions.
The PRA issues were always a threshold question in this case. I give it a slim chance of being successful but it isn’t a frivolous argument. I expected this to be decided first thing, I’m not sure why it wasn’t. I also expected the court to rule on this instead of instructing the jury about it. The reason I think the Trump would lose that point is because he shot himself in the foot with his usual big mouth after he transferred the boxes. Had he not done that he might have won on that issue. This could be why the judge will give the issue to the jury so they can decide if his post-president behavior negates the PRA issue.
 
I don't disagree. I am just saying that the Sailor CO mentioned had an aggravated issue, he destroyed evidence. That is the key part of Trump's case. The moving of the boxes is what makes it more of a deal than it otherwise would have been. If your Sailor had destroyed evidence, he may well have had more than NJP. In almost every case I have read about, covering up is what transforms these cases.
Yes, Trump’s case is far more egregious and more criminal than HRC’s. They are not close to comparable. From least egregious and criminal to most they rank this way:

HRC

Biden/Pence


















Trump
 
Terry some, actually.
I also don't think she's the best NPR example, but I can't think of the other one.

Joy Reid isn't smart enough to follow the discussion I was having with Hick (not to mention there was no Racism! involved). Teri Gross rarely does politics, and only when she's interviewing a political guest.
 
I don't disagree. I am just saying that the Sailor CO mentioned had an aggravated issue, he destroyed evidence. That is the key part of Trump's case. The moving of the boxes is what makes it more of a deal than it otherwise would have been. If your Sailor had destroyed evidence, he may well have had more than NJP. In almost every case I have read about, covering up is what transforms these cases.
Trump didn't destroy evidence and Biden certainly moved documents around - storing them in his garage.

The Special Prosecutor found plenty of grounds to charge Biden, but didn't because they found he's a brain-adled imbecile. Since when did that become an excuse for breaking the law?
 
Trump didn't destroy evidence and Biden certainly moved documents around - storing them in his garage.

The Special Prosecutor found plenty of grounds to charge Biden, but didn't because they found he's a brain-adled imbecile. Since when did that become an excuse for breaking the law?
Is there evidence he moved them to hide them? There is a guy that will testify he was asked to move those boxes which in the timeline was a day before before the Feds were coming to look. A guy is supposedly going to testify he was asked to delete security footage. It isn't pretty. Plus, why would Trump do all that if he believes as you have suggested, those were his to keep? Why not turn them over and sue to get them back?

It has been longstanding DOJ policy NOT to indict a sitting president. This came up during Trump's administration. You guys want to file charges against Biden when he's out of office, feel free. Same for Pence.

It isn't just moving them, Heck, any of might move boxes over 10 years. It is the timing and the asking for footage to be erased. Moving these boxes the day before the FBI was coming, a subpoena that was given to Trump in advance so he knew they were coming, shows an ill intent. It may be Biden had ill intent, it is just much harder to prove it. Trump's two actions gift-wrapped this for the prosecution. Like the submarine guy, 3 guys took photos. 1 destroyed evidence and was the only one that received a criminal prosecution. We might disagree with cooperate and get a reduced deal, but it seems to be SOP.


 
Also, I think you would lower the IQ if any room you walk into. Even empty ones. You’re an embarrassment.
I’m an embarrassment yet I’m not the one who says that two guys have documents in their homes that aren’t suppose to be there, but one is ok and the other is not. You’re just a sad person that believes the senile **** shouldn’t be prosecuted for any of his crimes. It’s also pathetic that the Dems are so afraid of Trump that they have to waste time and money to try to keep him from running. You are an embarrassment to Hoosiers everywhere. I also would like your thoughts on the fact that NY has a shit load of crimes that should be prosecuted but they’re wasting time trying to convict Trump.
 
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Is there evidence he moved them to hide them? There is a guy that will testify he was asked to move those boxes which in the timeline was a day before before the Feds were coming to look. A guy is supposedly going to testify he was asked to delete security footage. It isn't pretty. Plus, why would Trump do all that if he believes as you have suggested, those were his to keep? Why not turn them over and sue to get them back?

It has been longstanding DOJ policy NOT to indict a sitting president. This came up during Trump's administration. You guys want to file charges against Biden when he's out of office, feel free. Same for Pence.

It isn't just moving them, Heck, any of might move boxes over 10 years. It is the timing and the asking for footage to be erased. Moving these boxes the day before the FBI was coming, a subpoena that was given to Trump in advance so he knew they were coming, shows an ill intent. It may be Biden had ill intent, it is just much harder to prove it. Trump's two actions gift-wrapped this for the prosecution. Like the submarine guy, 3 guys took photos. 1 destroyed evidence and was the only one that received a criminal prosecution. We might disagree with cooperate and get a reduced deal, but it seems to be SOP.



I'm old enough to remember when the classified docs were planted at Mar-a-Largo....

Good times.
 
Is there evidence he moved them to hide them? There is a guy that will testify he was asked to move those boxes which in the timeline was a day before before the Feds were coming to look. A guy is supposedly going to testify he was asked to delete security footage. It isn't pretty. Plus, why would Trump do all that if he believes as you have suggested, those were his to keep? Why not turn them over and sue to get them back?

It has been longstanding DOJ policy NOT to indict a sitting president. This came up during Trump's administration. You guys want to file charges against Biden when he's out of office, feel free. Same for Pence.

It isn't just moving them, Heck, any of might move boxes over 10 years. It is the timing and the asking for footage to be erased. Moving these boxes the day before the FBI was coming, a subpoena that was given to Trump in advance so he knew they were coming, shows an ill intent. It may be Biden had ill intent, it is just much harder to prove it. Trump's two actions gift-wrapped this for the prosecution. Like the submarine guy, 3 guys took photos. 1 destroyed evidence and was the only one that received a criminal prosecution. We might disagree with cooperate and get a reduced deal, but it seems to be SOP.


Pearls before swine.
 
Is there evidence he moved them to hide them? There is a guy that will testify he was asked to move those boxes which in the timeline was a day before before the Feds were coming to look. A guy is supposedly going to testify he was asked to delete security footage. It isn't pretty. Plus, why would Trump do all that if he believes as you have suggested, those were his to keep? Why not turn them over and sue to get them back?

It has been longstanding DOJ policy NOT to indict a sitting president. This came up during Trump's administration. You guys want to file charges against Biden when he's out of office, feel free. Same for Pence.

It isn't just moving them, Heck, any of might move boxes over 10 years. It is the timing and the asking for footage to be erased. Moving these boxes the day before the FBI was coming, a subpoena that was given to Trump in advance so he knew they were coming, shows an ill intent. It may be Biden had ill intent, it is just much harder to prove it. Trump's two actions gift-wrapped this for the prosecution. Like the submarine guy, 3 guys took photos. 1 destroyed evidence and was the only one that received a criminal prosecution. We might disagree with cooperate and get a reduced deal, but it seems to be SOP.


Hell yes Biden he was hiding them - for decades. Do you think he just suddenly realized he had classified docs after Trump was charged? Don't be naive.

It doesn't bother me Trump moved records around his own place. He knew the FBI could come in with warrants. Obviously, if he wanted to hide them, he'd have taken them somewhere other than Mar A Lago.

Biden had his hidden in not only his own garage, but in other locations.

Jesus, I just wish people would use some common sense.
 
It doesn't bother me Trump moved records around his own place. He knew the FBI could come in with warrants. Obviously, if he wanted to hide them, he'd have taken them somewhere other than Mar A Lago.

You do know he took some to Bedminster, don't you?
 
Hell yes Biden he was hiding them - for decades. Do you think he just suddenly realized he had classified docs after Trump was charged? Don't be naive.

It doesn't bother me Trump moved records around his own place. He knew the FBI could come in with warrants. Obviously, if he wanted to hide them, he'd have taken them somewhere other than Mar A Lago.

Biden had his hidden in not only his own garage, but in other locations.

Jesus, I just wish people would use some common sense.

Common sense. Why the hell did he order the security recordings erased if he did nothing wrong? I have a ring doorbell, do you? Do you go in and delete every time you come and go?
 
I’m an embarrassment yet I’m not the one who says that two guys have documents in their homes that aren’t suppose to be there, but one is ok and the other is not. You’re just a sad person that believes the senile **** shouldn’t be prosecuted for any of his crimes. It’s also pathetic that the Dems are so afraid of Trump that they have to waste time and money to try to keep him from running. You are an embarrassment to Hoosiers everywhere. I also would like your thoughts on the fact that NY has a shit load of crimes that should be prosecuted but they’re wasting time trying to convict Trump.
You’re a feisty little internet tough guy, aren’t you? Dumb too.

What I’ve actually said was that HRC should have been prosecuted for gross negligence in handling classified information, but wasn’t. I said the Pence and Biden cases were a little more egregious than HRC’s case and I’d be good with prosecuting them both, but not surprised they didn’t. They both reported they had them and neither tried to obstruct their return. They had less than a 10th of the number Trump had as well. Plus they couldn’t prosecute Biden while he was President. Trump’s case was far more egregious than all three of the cases combined. More documents, highest classification level, not protected and stored in areas accessible to hundreds of people, he actively tried to keep them, obstructed their return, and conspired to hide them. They’re not close to the same situations of the other three. He deserves to be prosecuted for felonies connected to the case.

Repeating Trump’s claim about prosecuting other crimes proves you’re an easily duped Trumpster and you only have opinions given to you by Trump and other Trumpsters.

You are an all around embarrassment. Spare me the tough idiot act. In fact, spare me any replies at all. You clearly aren’t worth any conversation.
 
Hell yes Biden he was hiding them - for decades. Do you think he just suddenly realized he had classified docs after Trump was charged? Don't be naive.

It doesn't bother me Trump moved records around his own place. He knew the FBI could come in with warrants. Obviously, if he wanted to hide them, he'd have taken them somewhere other than Mar A Lago.

Biden had his hidden in not only his own garage, but in other locations.

Jesus, I just wish people would use some common sense.
You don’t have a logical thought in your head, let alone common sense. Get out of here with that nonsense.
 
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Hell yes Biden he was hiding them - for decades. Do you think he just suddenly realized he had classified docs after Trump was charged? Don't be naive.

It doesn't bother me Trump moved records around his own place. He knew the FBI could come in with warrants. Obviously, if he wanted to hide them, he'd have taken them somewhere other than Mar A Lago.

Biden had his hidden in not only his own garage, but in other locations.

Jesus, I just wish people would use some common sense.
Some of the documents were moved to a plane, so not kept at Mara-a-lago

Butler told CNN how he unknowingly helped Nauta deliver boxes of classified information from Mar-a-Lago to the former president’s plane in June 2022 – the same day that Trump and his attorney were meeting with the Justice Department at Mar-a-Lago about the classified documents.​
 
Some of the documents were moved to a plane, so not kept at Mara-a-lago

Butler told CNN how he unknowingly helped Nauta deliver boxes of classified information from Mar-a-Lago to the former president’s plane in June 2022 – the same day that Trump and his attorney were meeting with the Justice Department at Mar-a-Lago about the classified documents.​
DANC doesn’t do actual facts. He pulls alternate “facts” straight out of his bunghole. 😊
 
Common sense. Why the hell did he order the security recordings erased if he did nothing wrong? I have a ring doorbell, do you? Do you go in and delete every time you come and go?
Pure speculation that he ordered any such thing.

Why did HIllary order deletions of 32,000 email under subpoena, many of which contained classified information, and the destructions of blackberries?
 
Some of the documents were moved to a plane, so not kept at Mara-a-lago

Butler told CNN how he unknowingly helped Nauta deliver boxes of classified information from Mar-a-Lago to the former president’s plane in June 2022 – the same day that Trump and his attorney were meeting with the Justice Department at Mar-a-Lago about the classified documents.​
Oh, he told CNN..... it's interesting how you take everything from CNN at face value.
 
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Some of the documents were moved to a plane, so not kept at Mara-a-lago

Butler told CNN how he unknowingly helped Nauta deliver boxes of classified information from Mar-a-Lago to the former president’s plane in June 2022 – the same day that Trump and his attorney were meeting with the Justice Department at Mar-a-Lago about the classified documents.​
"“They were the boxes that were in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. That’s what I remember loading,” Butler added."

How the hell does he know what documents are in the indictment? It seems he's an accomplice, if he knew these were documents under indictment.

Use your head. Guys like this are out to write a book and cash in. 'Exclusive' interview with CNN my ass. We'll see what he says when he's under oath.
 
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"“They were the boxes that were in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. That’s what I remember loading,” Butler added."

How the hell does he know what documents are in the indictment? It seems he's an accomplice, if he knew these were documents under indictment.

Use your head. Guys like this are out to write a book and cash in. 'Exclusive' interview with CNN my ass. We'll see what he says when he's under oath.

I would guess he has already spoke to the Feds, under oath, and why it is in the updated charging documents. Do you really think they added that based on a CNN interview?
 
Jury nullification. Especially if Trumps lawyers can get into evidence the government allowed Hillary and Biden to skate on similar issues, but chose to raid Trumps house, including Melania’s dresser and then prosecute Trump.
How long was it after NARA contacted Trump about the missing documents and eventually threatened to notify the DOJ did the FBI even enter the case? Much less the Grand Jury return an indictment or DOJ raid MAL?

Trump had at least a year to return the documents and not suffer any consequences at all. Not remotely similar to HRC, Biden or Pence. But you know that...:rolleyes:
 
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I would guess he has already spoke to the Feds, under oath, and why it is in the updated charging documents. Do you really think they added that based on a CNN interview?
Why do they have to update the documents if he told the FBI that in the first place?

So, how do you think he knew those documents were 'under indictment'? How would he have known?

But in answer to your question, yes, I think it's entirely possible they added that based on his CNN interview. I doubt he told the FBI anything about it and is looking to cash in.
 
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How long was it after NARA contacted Trump about the missing documents and eventually threatened to notify the DOJ did the FBI even enter the case? Much less the Grand Jury return an indictment or DOJ raid MAL?

Trump had at least a year to return the documents and not suffer any consequences at all. Not remotely similar to HRC, Biden or Pence. But you know that...:rolleyes:
So you're saying he wasn't guilty of taking classified documents before he didn't return them?

Congrats for coming around. Your argument is that he refused to turn the documents over, but he's not being charged with that.
 
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Judge Cannon isn't in the bag for Trump. She's doing her best. Let the process play out.
I am not disagreeing, I like to think the best of people. But a blog I occasionally read had below sent to them from a lawyer. Do you think there is something to her not actually ruling against Trump, just saying she isn't going to rule on it until the trial? That if she rules the PRA protects Trump and gives a directed verdict, there is no recourse for the prosecution even if the Supremes and Appeals court would disagree. Were her rulings that these things have to be decided in the trial and not before consistent with most other cases?

I've dug into the Cannon's recent "rulings," which aren't really rulings at all, and the consequences are more severe than is being reported.​
First, let's orient everyone as to where we are. What prompted these bizarre orders are several motions to dismiss that Donald Trump's counsel has filed. So far, Cannon has not ruled on most of these. One of those motions to dismiss claims that Trump cannot be prosecuted under the Espionage Act because the Presidential Records Act is a complete defense to that charge as it allows presidents to determine for themselves what records are personal and what are not. The highly classified documents that Trump took and refused to return are, therefore, "personal" records because he wants them for himself. An element of the crime of "willful retention" under the Espionage Act is "unauthorized possession" and Trump claims the PRA nullifies this element of the charge.​
As readers may recall, Cannon expressed some skepticism about one motion to dismiss based on claims that the Espionage Act is unconstitutionally "vague" and ultimately denied this motion. But she denied it without prejudice, which means she is explicitly allowing Trump to revisit this claim later. And in that context, she also issued this bizarre order for each side to submit proposed jury instructions by April 2 based on the two scenarios that (V) laid out on Thursday: (1) whether the PRA allows the president to decide what's personal and what's not,or (2) whether the jury should review the records and determine what's personal.​
Everyone agrees that either of these scenarios is in direct conflict with the law. But what has not been reported on much are the potential procedural problems with that order, which Special Counsel Jack Smith's team is teeing up in their filing in response to the order. First, jury instructions are typically not decided on by the judge until after the jury has been empaneled and sworn. Once the jury is sworn, jeopardy attaches. You see where I'm going with this. If the judge issues these erroneous instructions to the jury and Trump is acquitted as a result, there's nothing the federal prosecutors can do. He skates. Not only that, but Cannon can issue a directed verdict before the case even goes to the jury acquitting Trump based on those same instructions. Again, there's no appeal from an acquittal and double jeopardy prevents Trump from being tried again on those charges. (Contrast that with a directed verdict after a jury conviction, which CAN be appealed.)​
So, here's what Smith and his team are setting up. They are telling Cannon that she must decide these issues now, or they will petition the Eleventh Circuit for a writ of mandamus. Normally, only final rulings are appealable, and this is not one, but a prosecutor can request appellate review using a writ for "extraordinary" relief. And the situation here certainly seems to meet that criteria. The showing required is: (1) clear error; (2) lack of adequate, alternate remedy and (3) irreparable injury. As Roger Parloff points out in this piece written for Lawfare, there are very few examples of this being tried, but most prosecutors who DID try were successful.​
There are parallels to the situation Smith is facing—the Third Circuit case Parloff cites is an example where the Court found that "if jury deliberations guided by the erroneous instruction end in an acquittal, the injury to the government will be irremediable." Also: "We find that the adoption of a clearly erroneous jury instruction that entails a high probability of failure of a prosecution—a failure the government could not then seek to remedy by appeal or otherwise—constitutes the kind of extraordinary situation in which we are empowered to issue the writ of mandamus." While those cases aren't from the Eleventh Circuit, the standard is the same. And the Eleventh Circuit has some experience with having to "correct" Cannon for getting the law completely wrong and issuing crazy orders as a result—having done so twice—so they could already be primed to issue this type of extraordinary relief.​
It has been clear for a while that not only is Cannon slow-walking this case and indulging every delay tactic that Trump's team brings, but she is also deliberately avoiding making any rulings that Smith can appeal. And now it seems that she is setting up a Trump acquittal through the use of erroneous jury instructions. So, at this point, Smith has no choice but to get the Eleventh Circuit involved and at the same time, to try to get her removed from the case. If Smith is forced to take a writ and the Eleventh Circuit accepts it, I don't see how they leave her on the case. And if they act with some alacrity, I wouldn't be surprised if the new judge appointed to the case fast-tracked this thing since there are really no facts in dispute and the law is very clear and not at all complicated. That could add an entirely new dimension to the upcoming election if this case goes to trial, say, this summer and the Jan. 6 criminal trial begins in the Fall.​
 
I am not disagreeing, I like to think the best of people. But a blog I occasionally read had below sent to them from a lawyer. Do you think there is something to her not actually ruling against Trump, just saying she isn't going to rule on it until the trial? That if she rules the PRA protects Trump and gives a directed verdict, there is no recourse for the prosecution even if the Supremes and Appeals court would disagree. Were her rulings that these things have to be decided in the trial and not before consistent with most other cases?

I've dug into the Cannon's recent "rulings," which aren't really rulings at all, and the consequences are more severe than is being reported.​
First, let's orient everyone as to where we are. What prompted these bizarre orders are several motions to dismiss that Donald Trump's counsel has filed. So far, Cannon has not ruled on most of these. One of those motions to dismiss claims that Trump cannot be prosecuted under the Espionage Act because the Presidential Records Act is a complete defense to that charge as it allows presidents to determine for themselves what records are personal and what are not. The highly classified documents that Trump took and refused to return are, therefore, "personal" records because he wants them for himself. An element of the crime of "willful retention" under the Espionage Act is "unauthorized possession" and Trump claims the PRA nullifies this element of the charge.​
As readers may recall, Cannon expressed some skepticism about one motion to dismiss based on claims that the Espionage Act is unconstitutionally "vague" and ultimately denied this motion. But she denied it without prejudice, which means she is explicitly allowing Trump to revisit this claim later. And in that context, she also issued this bizarre order for each side to submit proposed jury instructions by April 2 based on the two scenarios that (V) laid out on Thursday: (1) whether the PRA allows the president to decide what's personal and what's not,or (2) whether the jury should review the records and determine what's personal.​
Everyone agrees that either of these scenarios is in direct conflict with the law. But what has not been reported on much are the potential procedural problems with that order, which Special Counsel Jack Smith's team is teeing up in their filing in response to the order. First, jury instructions are typically not decided on by the judge until after the jury has been empaneled and sworn. Once the jury is sworn, jeopardy attaches. You see where I'm going with this. If the judge issues these erroneous instructions to the jury and Trump is acquitted as a result, there's nothing the federal prosecutors can do. He skates. Not only that, but Cannon can issue a directed verdict before the case even goes to the jury acquitting Trump based on those same instructions. Again, there's no appeal from an acquittal and double jeopardy prevents Trump from being tried again on those charges. (Contrast that with a directed verdict after a jury conviction, which CAN be appealed.)​
So, here's what Smith and his team are setting up. They are telling Cannon that she must decide these issues now, or they will petition the Eleventh Circuit for a writ of mandamus. Normally, only final rulings are appealable, and this is not one, but a prosecutor can request appellate review using a writ for "extraordinary" relief. And the situation here certainly seems to meet that criteria. The showing required is: (1) clear error; (2) lack of adequate, alternate remedy and (3) irreparable injury. As Roger Parloff points out in this piece written for Lawfare, there are very few examples of this being tried, but most prosecutors who DID try were successful.​
There are parallels to the situation Smith is facing—the Third Circuit case Parloff cites is an example where the Court found that "if jury deliberations guided by the erroneous instruction end in an acquittal, the injury to the government will be irremediable." Also: "We find that the adoption of a clearly erroneous jury instruction that entails a high probability of failure of a prosecution—a failure the government could not then seek to remedy by appeal or otherwise—constitutes the kind of extraordinary situation in which we are empowered to issue the writ of mandamus." While those cases aren't from the Eleventh Circuit, the standard is the same. And the Eleventh Circuit has some experience with having to "correct" Cannon for getting the law completely wrong and issuing crazy orders as a result—having done so twice—so they could already be primed to issue this type of extraordinary relief.​
It has been clear for a while that not only is Cannon slow-walking this case and indulging every delay tactic that Trump's team brings, but she is also deliberately avoiding making any rulings that Smith can appeal. And now it seems that she is setting up a Trump acquittal through the use of erroneous jury instructions. So, at this point, Smith has no choice but to get the Eleventh Circuit involved and at the same time, to try to get her removed from the case. If Smith is forced to take a writ and the Eleventh Circuit accepts it, I don't see how they leave her on the case. And if they act with some alacrity, I wouldn't be surprised if the new judge appointed to the case fast-tracked this thing since there are really no facts in dispute and the law is very clear and not at all complicated. That could add an entirely new dimension to the upcoming election if this case goes to trial, say, this summer and the Jan. 6 criminal trial begins in the Fall.​
Good grief. Who are these people. The so dist has local rules that set forth procedures for instructions, making a record, timing, rulings, verdict form, etc etc. it’ll get sorted. And as for switching judges why? Where is proof of a conflict/bias etc?
 
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I am not disagreeing, I like to think the best of people. But a blog I occasionally read had below sent to them from a lawyer. Do you think there is something to her not actually ruling against Trump, just saying she isn't going to rule on it until the trial? That if she rules the PRA protects Trump and gives a directed verdict, there is no recourse for the prosecution even if the Supremes and Appeals court would disagree. Were her rulings that these things have to be decided in the trial and not before consistent with most other cases?

I've dug into the Cannon's recent "rulings," which aren't really rulings at all, and the consequences are more severe than is being reported.​
First, let's orient everyone as to where we are. What prompted these bizarre orders are several motions to dismiss that Donald Trump's counsel has filed. So far, Cannon has not ruled on most of these. One of those motions to dismiss claims that Trump cannot be prosecuted under the Espionage Act because the Presidential Records Act is a complete defense to that charge as it allows presidents to determine for themselves what records are personal and what are not. The highly classified documents that Trump took and refused to return are, therefore, "personal" records because he wants them for himself. An element of the crime of "willful retention" under the Espionage Act is "unauthorized possession" and Trump claims the PRA nullifies this element of the charge.​
As readers may recall, Cannon expressed some skepticism about one motion to dismiss based on claims that the Espionage Act is unconstitutionally "vague" and ultimately denied this motion. But she denied it without prejudice, which means she is explicitly allowing Trump to revisit this claim later. And in that context, she also issued this bizarre order for each side to submit proposed jury instructions by April 2 based on the two scenarios that (V) laid out on Thursday: (1) whether the PRA allows the president to decide what's personal and what's not,or (2) whether the jury should review the records and determine what's personal.​
Everyone agrees that either of these scenarios is in direct conflict with the law. But what has not been reported on much are the potential procedural problems with that order, which Special Counsel Jack Smith's team is teeing up in their filing in response to the order. First, jury instructions are typically not decided on by the judge until after the jury has been empaneled and sworn. Once the jury is sworn, jeopardy attaches. You see where I'm going with this. If the judge issues these erroneous instructions to the jury and Trump is acquitted as a result, there's nothing the federal prosecutors can do. He skates. Not only that, but Cannon can issue a directed verdict before the case even goes to the jury acquitting Trump based on those same instructions. Again, there's no appeal from an acquittal and double jeopardy prevents Trump from being tried again on those charges. (Contrast that with a directed verdict after a jury conviction, which CAN be appealed.)​
So, here's what Smith and his team are setting up. They are telling Cannon that she must decide these issues now, or they will petition the Eleventh Circuit for a writ of mandamus. Normally, only final rulings are appealable, and this is not one, but a prosecutor can request appellate review using a writ for "extraordinary" relief. And the situation here certainly seems to meet that criteria. The showing required is: (1) clear error; (2) lack of adequate, alternate remedy and (3) irreparable injury. As Roger Parloff points out in this piece written for Lawfare, there are very few examples of this being tried, but most prosecutors who DID try were successful.​
There are parallels to the situation Smith is facing—the Third Circuit case Parloff cites is an example where the Court found that "if jury deliberations guided by the erroneous instruction end in an acquittal, the injury to the government will be irremediable." Also: "We find that the adoption of a clearly erroneous jury instruction that entails a high probability of failure of a prosecution—a failure the government could not then seek to remedy by appeal or otherwise—constitutes the kind of extraordinary situation in which we are empowered to issue the writ of mandamus." While those cases aren't from the Eleventh Circuit, the standard is the same. And the Eleventh Circuit has some experience with having to "correct" Cannon for getting the law completely wrong and issuing crazy orders as a result—having done so twice—so they could already be primed to issue this type of extraordinary relief.​
It has been clear for a while that not only is Cannon slow-walking this case and indulging every delay tactic that Trump's team brings, but she is also deliberately avoiding making any rulings that Smith can appeal. And now it seems that she is setting up a Trump acquittal through the use of erroneous jury instructions. So, at this point, Smith has no choice but to get the Eleventh Circuit involved and at the same time, to try to get her removed from the case. If Smith is forced to take a writ and the Eleventh Circuit accepts it, I don't see how they leave her on the case. And if they act with some alacrity, I wouldn't be surprised if the new judge appointed to the case fast-tracked this thing since there are really no facts in dispute and the law is very clear and not at all complicated. That could add an entirely new dimension to the upcoming election if this case goes to trial, say, this summer and the Jan. 6 criminal trial begins in the Fall.​
I stopped reading at “bizarre orders”.
 
Where is proof of a conflict/bias etc?
I don't know. You guys have developed this whole wrap everything up in magic thing so only other lawyers understand what's going on. If the sort of rulings of "this will be decided in trial" is normal, then it is normal. I don't have any idea ( I know, words never spoken on a message board).
 
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