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The trial America needs

Why would I read it? I have no opinion on the subject, yet.

Helpful hint: It you read it, that might help inform an opinion.

Even the biggest Trumpers here seem to have finally abandoned the "TDS" argument. Even they realize people are going to talk plenty about a guy who's been indicted in three (soon to be four) jurisdictions yet remains the frontrunner for the Republican nomination for president. Kind of newsworthy (and crazy) dontchathink?
 
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No to your 1st sentence. Yes, to the 2nd. Why would I read it? I have no opinion on the subject, yet. My comment was about Aloha. Nothing he says about Trump matters. He has TDS.
Those who are blindly loyal to Trump and can’t logically defend him resort to this TDS nonsense.
 
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How do we get past the 51 former intelligence officials and the deliberate significant mass media censorship of important news? The whole 2020 election was an asymmetrical attack on democracy.

And Russian collusion!

If we are going to criminalize political lying and censorship, and be fair about prosecution, we are going to need a much bigger criminal justice system.
Apples and oranges - - and false equivalences - - of course. I think that, on some level, you probably recognize that but, then again, that's all you've ever got.

There's no equivalence, or precedent, for the shit Trump pulled after the election. He will go down in American history as a uniquely awful, unfit, dangerous and destructive president, a guy who makes Nixon look like a choir boy. But keep clinging to your confused narrative.
 
SC, curious about which government policies have a major impact on your life.
Covid polices would be an example. It led to very high inflation and I get the joy of working more. The reality is larger government leads to increase costs and lower growth overall. Middle class people get it stuck to them the hardest. I wish I was wealthy enough to where it has little effect on my time, but that’s not the case.
 
I was going to consider abstaining from the election until that Bitch said that. She didn't mean just Maga. She was talking about anyone who wasn't voting for her. But then I figured I had to vote against her no matter what.
No, that’s not what she meant. And you just prove her point, time and time again.
 
Covid polices would be an example. It led to very high inflation and I get the joy of working more. The reality is larger government leads to increase costs and lower growth overall. Middle class people get it stuck to them the hardest. I wish I was wealthy enough to where it has little effect on my time, but that’s not the case.

SC, appreciate your response.
 
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The problem is nearly every politician is a con man in some way, shape or form.

TW, got a question for you.

Does telling the voters what they want to hear while knowing what they want is unlikely to happen an example of a con ?
 
This excellent piece may be behind a paywall, so here are two key paragraphs:

"At the same time, however, a successful federal trial would strip Trump’s defenders of key talking points — that his voter fraud and vote manipulation claims have never been fully tested, that the House Jan. 6 committee was nothing but a one-sided show trial and that a proper cross-examination would expose the weakness of the government’s claims. Trump will have his opportunity to challenge the government’s case. His lawyers will have the ability to cross-examine opposing witnesses. We will see his best defense, and a jury will decide whether the prosecution prevails."

"Millions of Americans believe today that Joe Biden stole the presidency. They believe a series of demonstrable, provable lies, and their belief in those lies is shaking their faith in our republic and, by extension, risking the very existence of our democracy. There is no sure way to shake their convictions, especially if they are convinced that Trump is the innocent victim of a dark and malign deep state. But the judicial system can expose his claims to exacting scrutiny, and that scrutiny has the potential to change those minds that are open to the truth."


they say the Dems are terrible as messaging, because they are.

no reason to make this partisan.

the trial absolutely should be televised.. for everyone's benefit. including the charged, the judge, the jury, the lawyers, and all citizens of all parties.

that said, any jury needs to be totally blacked out from any video, photography, artist renderings, etc.

that said, all SCOTUS proceedings should be televised as well.

and the founding fathers agreed, when they deemed trials and SCOTUS open to the public for reasons of daylight.

daylight matters and is essential in all functions of govt, and the more important the proceedings, the more necessary the total daylight.
 
they say the Dems are terrible as messaging, because they are.

no reason to make this partisan.

the trial absolutely should be televised.. for everyone's benefit. including the charged, the judge, the jury, the lawyers, and all citizens of all parties.

that said, any jury needs to be totally blacked out from any video, photography, artist renderings, etc.

that said, all SCOTUS proceedings should be televised as well.

and the founding fathers agreed, when they deemed trials and SCOTUS open to the public for reasons of daylight.

daylight matters and is essential in all functions of govt, and the more important the proceedings, the more necessary the total daylight.
Cameras aren't permitted in federal courtrooms.
 
TW, got a question for you.

Does telling the voters what they want to hear while knowing what they want is unlikely to happen an example of a con ?
It's an example of a politician. Every politician.
 
They think dc is corrupt, Biden is getting preferential treatment, and trump is getting picked on. All can be true. But it doesn’t absolve trump
You hit on it.

I think you guys are misinterpreting lack of care for people deluding themselves in most instances. Most people are not interested in getting into nuances and when it comes to Trump and Washington D.C. that is basically where these conversations get dragged and once you are at a point of arguing minutiae, the argument is over.

And by minutiae, I mean getting down and having to decide which levels of shadiness and corruption are worse. For instance, remove legality from the equation, what it looks like Biden and Family have done is shady as hell. Honestly, the argument in defense that, "Well it isn't illegal for politicians to do this shady shit and make money off of their office" isn't going to sit well with a group of people who elected an outsider, saw a whole bunch of institutions put the brakes on things they wanted to see done, and then hounded the guy for doing "shady stuff" all because he wasn't part of the insider team. That's what it looks like to them. Your corruption is a-okay because your people do what you want but the minute my guy gets in there all sorts of government employees and political flacks did all they could to undermine him from the inside. And they aren't wrong about that.

So then the argument becomes, "Well he is just the worst offender..." And at that point, who gives a shit. That is the problem you have now. He may be the worst offender but it is all part of a system that is varying shades of corrupt all over the place. We accept AOC violating campaign finance, Nancy Pelosi and others insider trading, Biden having a bunch of shell companies that made money by, at best selling the illusion of access (which is still corruption), and all the Trump critics make little excuses for all of those things because that is the established order. If you accept the thousands of papercuts as normal, eventually the people who disagree with you are going to come to accept that they are entitled to one big stab.

Trump may be a whole host of the bad all wrapped into one, but people have accepted little bits of the bad all spread out for a long time. Little election denials here, little sweetheart deals there, lesser criminal consequences for connected out there...the little corruptions we have grown to accept usually end up in civil strife when left unchecked and unaddressed. We need to get our shit together before that happens.
 
the media exacerbates things. and this board is comprised mostly of whackos. hyper partisan, uninformed, yet strongly opinionated people. why isn't the media all over the irs investigation being thwarted by doj? bc save fox the lion's share of the media is liberal. it's just a fact. THE JOE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY deserves the same scrutiny trump gets. all of that being said, the nature of the offense(s) is important. what distinguishes trump from the bad actors you note is the sanctity of our country and democracy and that he would have disenfranchised 80 million people. it's one thing to be corrupt and derive a benefit that pads your bank account. that's personal, more or less. trump using the wrong account to pay off a stripper. personal, mostly. trump trying to fix an election by telling people to lie. that touches all of us.
You hit on it.

I think you guys are misinterpreting lack of care for people deluding themselves in most instances. Most people are not interested in getting into nuances and when it comes to Trump and Washington D.C. that is basically where these conversations get dragged and once you are at a point of arguing minutiae, the argument is over.

And by minutiae, I mean getting down and having to decide which levels of shadiness and corruption are worse. For instance, remove legality from the equation, what it looks like Biden and Family have done is shady as hell. Honestly, the argument in defense that, "Well it isn't illegal for politicians to do this shady shit and make money off of their office" isn't going to sit well with a group of people who elected an outsider, saw a whole bunch of institutions put the brakes on things they wanted to see done, and then hounded the guy for doing "shady stuff" all because he wasn't part of the insider team. That's what it looks like to them. Your corruption is a-okay because your people do what you want but the minute my guy gets in there all sorts of government employees and political flacks did all they could to undermine him from the inside. And they aren't wrong about that.

So then the argument becomes, "Well he is just the worst offender..." And at that point, who gives a shit. That is the problem you have now. He may be the worst offender but it is all part of a system that is varying shades of corrupt all over the place. We accept AOC violating campaign finance, Nancy Pelosi and others insider trading, Biden having a bunch of shell companies that made money by, at best selling the illusion of access (which is still corruption), and all the Trump critics make little excuses for all of those things because that is the established order. If you accept the thousands of papercuts as normal, eventually the people who disagree with you are going to come to accept that they are entitled to one big stab.

Trump may be a whole host of the bad all wrapped into one, but people have accepted little bits of the bad all spread out for a long time. Little election denials here, little sweetheart deals there, lesser criminal consequences for connected out there...the little corruptions we have grown to accept usually end up in civil strife when left unchecked and unaddressed. We need to get our shit together before that happens.
 
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Trump may be a whole host of the bad all wrapped into one, but people have accepted little bits of the bad all spread out for a long time. Little election denials here, little sweetheart deals there, lesser criminal consequences for connected out there...the little corruptions we have grown to accept usually end up in civil strife when left unchecked and unaddressed. We need to get our shit together before that happens.
But see. here's the difference, and you actually alluded to it in the first half of your first sentence above. None of the misconduct outlined in Tuesday's indictment is "little." It's huge. It's unprecedented. It's something that's never been seen before in the United States, but rather is typical of strongman regimes in (to use Trump's phrase) shithole countries. Trump corruptly and illegally tried to remain in office after losing an election. Sorry, dude, that's a bridge way too far. Guy needs to be prosecuted and the message needs to get out to anyone else who might contemplate a repeat performance that they won't get away with it.
 
the media exacerbates things. and this board is comprised mostly of whackos. hyper partisan, uniformed, yet strongly opinionated people. why isn't the media all over the irs investigation being thwarted by doj? bc save fox the lion's share of the media is liberal. it's just a fact. THE JOE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY deserves the same scrutiny trump gets. all of that being said, the nature of the offense(s) is important. what distinguishes trump from the bad actors you note is the sanctity of our country and democracy and that he would have disenfranchised 80 million people. it's one thing to be corrupt and derive a benefit that pads your bank account. that's personal, more or less. trump using the wrong account to pay off a stripper. personal, mostly. trump trying to fix an election by telling people to lie. that touches all of us.
To them though, Crossfire Hurricane (for example) is an instance of them being disenfranchised. That is what I mean. The acceptance of all of the little transgressions erodes the argument for the bigger. After the election Time Magazine ran an article bragging about how the election was "rigged". That was all on the up and up because political parties are allowed to collude with business to put their thumbs on the scale. It is legal corruption.

From the ardent Trump supporter's POV: the rules are arbitrarily enforced, they can point to things that indicate their candidate was screwed with, nothing was done about that, so f--- your rules.

And it is really hard to counter that argument on one hand while soft selling Hunter and Joe Biden corruption or bragging about stuff like this at the same time it was found that government actors (past and present) were involved in spreading disinformation in order to protect a preferred candidate. When you do all of that you inevitably get caught up in trying to argue scale of wrongdoing. I think when you get to that point, the argument is lost.

They think they got screwed. They have events they can reasonably point to that support that. Nobody faced any type of penalty for those little interferences. So why should they care about their guy? That is the thought process you have to overcome right now and very, very few people are making the argument that we should be interested in cleaning all of this up. They aren't going to accept one set of rules for thee and another for me. They just aren't. You want to clean this up, you need to go hard after both of the guys currently looking to be the frontrunner in 2024. "But, but they got nothing on Biden...." They aren't looking 1/10 as hard at him as they did Trump. And maybe Biden has learned to be a smarter crook by putting the crackhead and his brother between him and the people paying, but that is still corruption that would make him unacceptable for his office. It all needs cleaned up. All of it.
 
But see. here's the difference, and you actually alluded to it in the first half of your first sentence above. None of the misconduct outlined in Tuesday's indictment is "little." It's huge. It's unprecedented. It's something that's never been seen before in the United States, but rather is typical of strongman regimes in (to use Trump's phrase) shithole countries. Trump corruptly and illegally tried to remain in office after losing an election. Sorry, dude, that's a bridge way too far. Guy needs to be prosecuted and the message needs to get out to anyone else who might contemplate a repeat performance that they won't get away with it.
Nope. Again, you are excuse making. I am not going to get into all the comparisons but corruption that drives money to the leader is also authoritarian. As is fake investigations to bring disrepute onto political opponents.

Your whole argument of "Yeah but that is bad but this is worse...." is never going to fly. I don't care if you believe it is true or if it even really is true. They don't care. If any level of shadiness is OK for one team then you open yourself up to the idea that any amount of shadiness should be acceptable from the other. That is the problem with systemic corruption. That is the problem with attacking election integrity every time your team loses. That is the problem with declaring branches of government as illegitimate because your political opponents were able to put more of their adherents into it.

"Well that wasn't trying to subvert the vote and overturn an election and our system." Sure it is. It is just boiling the frog slowly instead of hitting it with a hammer. Both eventually kill the frog. You are just left to argue over whose method of execution was more humane. For the frog, he is dead either way so what does it matter?
 
"But, but they got nothing on Biden...." They aren't looking 1/10 as hard at him as they did Trump. And maybe Biden has learned to be a smarter crook by putting the crackhead and his brother between him and the people paying, but that is still corruption that would make him unacceptable for his office. It all needs cleaned up. All of it.
Nobody has to look particularly hard at Trump to find misconduct. Much/most of what he does is in broad daylight. That's part of the reason he's gotten away with his shit for as long as he has. "How can this be criminal if he's doing it right in front of us?"

I'm not a Democrat so I don't really give a shit about Biden except that I believe he provides the much better chance (over Trump) of our country continuing as a representative democracy - - and that's critically important to me - - but here's another major difference between the two camps. Biden's supporters, with relatively few exceptions, readily and willingly acknowledge that if there's credible proof that the guy took a bribe or otherwise committed a crime, he should be prosecuted (after he's out of office, of course). Trump's people, on the other hand, rarely take that position about their guy. Rather, it's always the same talking points: "We have a two-tiered justice system," "He's treated so unfairly," "Russian Collusion," "He's a victim," "It's a witch hunt," "Russian Collusion," "There's a double standard," "The media is out to get him," "Whatabout Hillary," "Russian Collusion." They refuse to concede, even after detailed indictments, that it's likely (or even possible) that he engaged in serious criminal activities. They're reluctant to even read the fvcking indictments. That speaks volumes to their blind loyalty and willful ignorance.
 
Nobody has to look particularly hard at Trump to find misconduct. Much/most of what he does is in broad daylight. That's part of the reason he's gotten away with his shit for as long as he has. "How can this be criminal if he's doing it right in front of us?"

I'm not a Democrat so I don't really give a shit about Biden except that I believe he provides the much better chance (over Trump) of our country continuing as a representative democracy - - and that's critically important to me - - but here's another major difference between the two camps. Biden's supporters, with relatively few exceptions, readily and willingly acknowledge that if there's credible proof that the guy took a bribe or otherwise committed a crime, he should be prosecuted (after he's out of office, of course). Trump's people, on the other hand, rarely take that position about their guy. Rather, it's always the same talking points: "We have a two-tiered justice system," "He's treated so unfairly," "Russian Collusion," "He's a victim," "It's a witch hunt," "Russian Collusion," "There's a double standard," "The media is out to get him," "Whatabout Hillary," "Russian Collusion." They refuse to concede, even after detailed indictments, that it's likely (or even possible) that he engaged in serious criminal activities. They're reluctant to even read the fvcking indictments. That speaks volumes to their blind loyalty and willful ignorance.
Agree to disagree on some of this. I don't view Biden supporters as any different from the die hard Trump. Any discussion of his (extremely likely) wrongdoing ends up looking like your post. "But Trump" and "If he is guilty he should be punished" which is always followed by, "Well you gotta investigate the MFer to get to that point."

I don't think Biden continuing on is any better for representative democracy either. I think both these dudes need purged out of the system and we need a new choice. There is a whole host of things I think Biden has done to overstep while in power as well. And that isn't even getting into the discussion about whether he has the mental capacity for the job anymore (he doesn't).
 
Agree to disagree on some of this. I don't view Biden supporters as any different from the die hard Trump. Any discussion of his (extremely likely) wrongdoing ends up looking like your post. "But Trump" and "If he is guilty he should be punished" which is always followed by, "Well you gotta investigate the MFer to get to that point."

I don't think Biden continuing on is any better for representative democracy either. I think both these dudes need purged out of the system and we need a new choice. There is a whole host of things I think Biden has done to overstep while in power as well. And that isn't even getting into the discussion about whether he has the mental capacity for the job anymore (he doesn't).
Here's the thing. This country may be broken, as many on here always proclaim, and it is almost certain that our political system is. But broken things can be put back together, and in some cases, like a fractured bone, be made stronger.
Now, who broke things? Well, IMO, just the stress of maintaining our country has been straining the limits for a long time. To avoid dredging up the whole Nixon debacle, and to show that I am not completely a partisan hack, I remember crazy ass dems screaming that Bush at least had prior knowledge that the 9/11 attacks were going to happen (remember all the hullabaloo of how he reacted when told about the situation as he read to elementary kids?), and at worst, was in on the destruction of the WTC by pre-set charges placed by demolition experts. This was all ridiculous and dangerous bullshit, and cracks begin to appear.
Fast forward to all the hateful rhetoric spewed during the Obama years by the Right. The cracks got bigger.

Now, here comes Trump, and I really believe he absolutely shattered the government (metaphorically, at least), and not in a good way, either. That's why I think people came out in record numbers to elect Biden. Now, is Biden going to fix things? Probably not. But, you have to get the fvcking bull out of the china shop (no pun) before you can begin to repair the place. That's why I have said that Biden had one job, and he succeeded...to the point that Trump followers (he knows he got his ass kicked) couldn't wrap their heads around the idea, and have been left yelling about election fraud.
Well, now that bull wants another shot, and it won't be pretty, win or lose. But I do know one thing...I, for one, don't want to let him back in.
 
Here's the thing. This country may be broken, as many on here always proclaim, and it is almost certain that our political system is. But broken things can be put back together, and in some cases, like a fractured bone, be made stronger.
Now, who broke things? Well, IMO, just the stress of maintaining our country has been straining the limits for a long time. To avoid dredging up the whole Nixon debacle, and to show that I am not completely a partisan hack, I remember crazy ass dems screaming that Bush at least had prior knowledge that the 9/11 attacks were going to happen (remember all the hullabaloo of how he reacted when told about the situation as he read to elementary kids?), and at worst, was in on the destruction of the WTC by pre-set charges placed by demolition experts. This was all ridiculous and dangerous bullshit, and cracks begin to appear.
Fast forward to all the hateful rhetoric spewed during the Obama years by the Right. The cracks got bigger.

Now, here comes Trump, and I really believe he absolutely shattered the government (metaphorically, at least), and not in a good way, either. That's why I think people came out in record numbers to elect Biden. Now, is Biden going to fix things? Probably not. But, you have to get the fvcking bull out of the china shop (no pun) before you can begin to repair the place. That's why I have said that Biden had one job, and he succeeded...to the point that Trump followers (he knows he got his ass kicked) couldn't wrap their heads around the idea, and have been left yelling about election fraud.
Well, now that bull wants another shot, and it won't be pretty, win or lose. But I do know one thing...I, for one, don't want to let him back in.
Not going to argue all that anymore but you replaced the bull with a cat that is spazzing out and still breaking dishes. If the goal is to stop the dishes from being broken, the psycho cat has got to go as well.

I agree that what is broke can be fixed but it isn't going to just go away if we get rid of the boogeyman. There are a whole host of demons that need exorcised from this house of horrors.
 
Not going to argue all that anymore but you replaced the bull with a cat that is spazzing out and still breaking dishes. If the goal is to stop the dishes from being broken, the psycho cat has got to go as well.

I agree that what is broke can be fixed but it isn't going to just go away if we get rid of the boogeyman. There are a whole host of demons that need exorcised from this house of horrors.
Not going to argue your extended metaphor, but I'd really rather be dealing with a cat than a bull...and I know that's your whole point in your posts about why people are pissed and still support him.
I also agree that we need someone to come in and be a leader. Like I said, Biden (or American voters) did his part and kicked the bull in the balls. Now. let's find a guy with a broom and the willingness to be a servant leader and clean up the mess.
 
Not going to argue all that anymore but you replaced the bull with a cat that is spazzing out and still breaking dishes. If the goal is to stop the dishes from being broken, the psycho cat has got to go as well.

I agree that what is broke can be fixed but it isn't going to just go away if we get rid of the boogeyman. There are a whole host of demons that need exorcised from this house of horrors.
Where to begin? Very easy:


THE JOE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY
 
Not going to argue your extended metaphor, but I'd really rather be dealing with a cat than a bull...and I know that's your whole point in your posts about why people are pissed and still support him.
I also agree that we need someone to come in and be a leader. Like I said, Biden (or American voters) did his part and kicked the bull in the balls. Now. let's find a guy with a broom and the willingness to be a servant leader and clean up the mess.
Where to begin to clean up the mess? Very easy:

THE JOE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY
 
Not going to argue your extended metaphor, but I'd really rather be dealing with a cat than a bull...and I know that's your whole point in your posts about why people are pissed and still support him.
I also agree that we need someone to come in and be a leader. Like I said, Biden (or American voters) did his part and kicked the bull in the balls. Now. let's find a guy with a broom and the willingness to be a servant leader and clean up the mess.
All that being said, I pretty much expect Cat vs Bull part deux next year.
 
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You need to worry about your team, Coach. They just treated you like the new guy on the cellblock, and didn't even give your the courtesy of waiting until you were in the shower.
They can’t be controlled. Almost impossible to coach. Also why venue matters so much. In fla decent chance there’s one DANC, Joe, Dbm, Ty, mas, and on and on. Dc not so much
 
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Agree to disagree on some of this. I don't view Biden supporters as any different from the die hard Trump. Any discussion of his (extremely likely) wrongdoing ends up looking like your post. "But Trump" and "If he is guilty he should be punished" which is always followed by, "Well you gotta investigate the MFer to get to that point."

I don't think Biden continuing on is any better for representative democracy either. I think both these dudes need purged out of the system and we need a new choice. There is a whole host of things I think Biden has done to overstep while in power as well. And that isn't even getting into the discussion about whether he has the mental capacity for the job anymore (he doesn't).
Biden has been in politics for over 40 years and has never been accused of corruption. Look at what Lindsey Graham, among other people have said about him. Until the last few years. Trump’s entire life and business have been filled with corruption and lawsuits. If you were paying attention, you knew who he was before he got into office. Comparing Trump to anyone else who has ever been in office is a poor analogy, What he has done is unprecedented and it needs to be treated accordingly. If they can prove Biden has done some of the things they have been trying to accuse him of then fine, impeach himl But don’t try to compare it with trying to overturn an election. Not even close. And don’t try to compare Biden supporters with Trump supporters, Again, not close. Every single person here says if they can prove Biden has broken the law he needs to go. It’s not a cult. We don’t wear hats, fly flags, and worship our cult leader.
 
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