The case for capital punishment

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I don't agree with the death penalty as a policy matter, because I think the potential of mistakenly killing an innocent person is simply so grievous that it overcomes any counterarguments. If you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, then lock 'em up and throw away the key.

That said, when you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, for whom there is no question of guilt, and who shows no remorse for his actions, man, it's tempting to save all that hassle of imprisoning the guy, and just get it over with.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/us/sayfullo-saipov-nyc-terror-attack-sentencing-wednesday/index.html

 

[i'vegotwinners]

I don't agree with the death penalty as a policy matter, because I think the potential of mistakenly killing an innocent person is simply so grievous that it overcomes any counterarguments. If you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, then lock 'em up and throw away the key.

That said, when you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, for whom there is no question of guilt, and who shows no remorse for his actions, man, it's tempting to save all that hassle of imprisoning the guy, and just get it over with.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/us/sayfullo-saipov-nyc-terror-attack-sentencing-wednesday/index.html

the ultra religious love to use their religion to justify wrongdoing, from domination of others to murder.

as for the death penalty, other than for the guy who invented the perpetual minutia crawl at the bottom of the screen on sports telecasts, i'm against it as well, as too many convicted have later been exonerated by DNA once available.

that said, i'd much rather this psychopath spend decades in misery in prison first, as he'll get the death penalty anyway after that.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

I don't agree with the death penalty as a policy matter, because I think the potential of mistakenly killing an innocent person is simply so grievous that it overcomes any counterarguments. If you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, then lock 'em up and throw away the key.

That said, when you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, for whom there is no question of guilt, and who shows no remorse for his actions, man, it's tempting to save all that hassle of imprisoning the guy, and just get it over with.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/us/sayfullo-saipov-nyc-terror-attack-sentencing-wednesday/index.html

To your first paragraph. To be against it in Ernest, means that not only our justice system is broken, but broken with the 12(ish) appeals and 30 odd years of finding truth.
I’m a tool maker, I’ve never had those tolerances given to me to “accident” into a tolerance.
So all of those years and thousands of dollars, taught you that our laws suck?
I hate to see you hate our system like this. That has to be a hard place to wake up in.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

To your first paragraph. To be against it in Ernest, means that not only our justice system is broken, but broken with the 12(ish) appeals and 30 odd years of finding truth.
I’m a tool maker, I’ve never had those tolerances given to me to “accident” into a tolerance.
So all of those years and thousands of dollars, taught you that our laws suck?
I hate to see you hate our system like this. That has to be a hard place to wake up in.

Huh? Our system gets it right most of the time, but no system is perfect, and if you wrongly kill a guy, you can't undo that. So even one case doesn't seem worth it to me.

Personally, I'd prefer we readopt penal transportation. Let's pick a state no one likes (Florida?) and build a wall along the entire border. Anyone who is convicted of a serious crime gets dumped over the wall. Let them fend for themselves.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Huh? Our system gets it right most of the time, but no system is perfect, and if you wrongly kill a guy, you can't undo that. So even one case doesn't seem worth it to me.

Personally, I'd prefer we readopt penal transportation. Let's pick a state no one likes (Florida?) and build a wall along the entire border. Anyone who is convicted of a serious crime gets dumped over the wall. Let them fend for themselves.

So what about the people out there that our imperfect system just made ass bags for 40 yrs? 40 yrs vrs 4 seconds sound more like justice to you?
Even to totally innocent would prefer 4 seconds of going to sleep. Vrs 40 yrs of California.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

So what about the people out there that our imperfect system just made ass bags for 40 yrs? 40 yrs vrs 4 seconds sound more like justice to you?
Even to totally innocent would prefer 4 seconds of going to sleep. Vrs 40 yrs of California.

At least after the 40 years you can still let them out. You can't bring someone back to life.

 

[Crayfish57]

At least after the 40 years you can still let them out. You can't bring someone back to life.

Right and can you ever bring back the people that they killed back to life. I am all for public stonings.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Right and can you ever bring back the people that they killed back to life. I am all for public stonings.

Well, since we're talking about the wrongfully convicted at the moment, they didn't kill anyone.

 

[IU_Hickory]

Even those on death row often take decades before the sentence is carried out.

Yea, I agree it better be something really bad and no doubt as to the guilt.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

At least after the 40 years you can still let them out. You can't bring someone back to life.

It’s obviously more appetizing for many to allow freedom, into an unknown world, being forgotten and hated by society after 40 yrs of hell,
Than to allow them 4 seconds of solitude meeting the inevitable anyway.
I get it, it’s hard. But we are either a “civilization” of laws or we aren’t.
Think of the greater good (as socialist say). One out of 1 million . Is it better that 1 is tortured for 40 years, or rest in peace ?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It’s obviously more appetizing for many to allow freedom, into an unknown world, being forgotten and hated by society after 40 yrs of hell,
Than to allow them 4 seconds of solitude meeting the inevitable anyway.
I get it, it’s hard. But we are either a “civilization” of laws or we aren’t.
Think of the greater good (as socialist say). One out of 1 million . Is it better that 1 is tortured for 40 years, or rest in peace ?

Well, personally, I'd rather be sent to prison with the faint hope that I might someday right the wrong and gain my freedom.

 

[Crayfish57]

Well, personally, I'd rather be sent to prison with the faint hope that I might someday right the wrong and gain my freedom.

Where can I sign up to help?

 

[IUCrazy2]

I don't agree with the death penalty as a policy matter, because I think the potential of mistakenly killing an innocent person is simply so grievous that it overcomes any counterarguments. If you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, then lock 'em up and throw away the key.

That said, when you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, for whom there is no question of guilt, and who shows no remorse for his actions, man, it's tempting to save all that hassle of imprisoning the guy, and just get it over with.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/us/sayfullo-saipov-nyc-terror-attack-sentencing-wednesday/index.html

I would march him into Times Square and blow his brains out. Done and done.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I would march him into Times Square and blow his brains out. Done and done.

That's what I'm saying. I don't agree with it, but I kind of agree with it. You know?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I don't agree with the death penalty as a policy matter, because I think the potential of mistakenly killing an innocent person is simply so grievous that it overcomes any counterarguments. If you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, then lock 'em up and throw away the key.

That said, when you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, for whom there is no question of guilt, and who shows no remorse for his actions, man, it's tempting to save all that hassle of imprisoning the guy, and just get it over with.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/us/sayfullo-saipov-nyc-terror-attack-sentencing-wednesday/index.html

But in today's era, you cannot simply "lock them up and throw away the key". They cost a signficant amount of money in terms of guarding, food, medical attention, etc.

Bring back Chateau D'if and I'll join you!

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

But in today's era, you cannot simply "lock them up and throw away the key". They cost a signficant amount of money in terms of guarding, food, medical attention, etc.

Bring back Chateau D'if and I'll join you!

I get that. That's my point. I think all that trouble and expense is worth it to avoid accidentally killing even one innocent person. Or perhaps even killing a guilty a person who would otherwise express regret and find some redemption before he dies naturally.

But when a guy has no question of guilt and clearly shows no remorse...it's harder to justify making that effort to keep him alive.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

It doesn’t matter. Two wrongs never make a right. Never have, never will.

Besides, it’s a law of nature that the state will eventually f**k up everything it touches. Capital punishment is no different.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

But when a guy has no question of guilt and clearly shows no remorse...it's harder to justify making that effort to keep him alive.

I respect that logic and differentiation. I would agree that for admitted violent criminals with no remorse, capital punishment is a far easier sentence.

The hardest part are those that plead innocence by virtue of X (insanity, probably a few others you can put in). There have to be cases where things are cut and dry - mass shooting suspect is found alive and arrested, but claims innocence despite numerous witnesses, video evidence, etc., etc. and I cannot imagine allowing that person to avoid capital punishment.

But, there are plenty of others where the facts are more "up in the air" as Netflix has showed us all.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I respect that logic and differentiation. I would agree that for admitted violent criminals with no remorse, capital punishment is a far easier sentence.

The hardest part are those that plead innocence by virtue of X (insanity, probably a few others you can put in). There have to be cases where things are cut and dry - mass shooting suspect is found alive and arrested, but claims innocence despite numerous witnesses, video evidence, etc., etc. and I cannot imagine allowing that person to avoid capital punishment.

But, there are plenty of others where the facts are more "up in the air" as Netflix has showed us all.

The gray areas are why I generally fall into the category of just opposing it all together. I'm just saying, a case like the one I linked in this thread makes that decision more difficult to justify.

 

[Noodle]

Personally, I'd prefer we readopt penal transportation. Let's pick a state no one likes (Florida?) and build a wall along the entire border. Anyone who is convicted of a serious crime gets dumped over the wall. Let them fend for themselves.

that would make a great movie

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It’s obviously more appetizing for many to allow freedom, into an unknown world, being forgotten and hated by society after 40 yrs of hell,
Than to allow them 4 seconds of solitude meeting the inevitable anyway.
I get it, it’s hard. But we are either a “civilization” of laws or we aren’t.
Think of the greater good (as socialist say). One out of 1 million . Is it better that 1 is tortured for 40 years, or rest in peace ?

Many of the people Innocence Project has freed have been in prison far less time.

List of exonerated death row inmates - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Here are 3 examples:

Released in 1977
Delbert Tibbs, Florida. Convicted in 1974.[95][96][97]

Released in 1978

• Earl Patrick Charles, Georgia. Convicted 1975.
• Gary Radi, Montana. Convicted 1975.

If you were innocent, would you spend 3 years in prison?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Personally, I'd prefer we readopt penal transportation. Let's pick a state no one likes (Florida?) and build a wall along the entire border. Anyone who is convicted of a serious crime gets dumped over the wall. Let them fend for themselves.

Seems like WV or MS would win in a landslide.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

But in today's era, you cannot simply "lock them up and throw away the key". They cost a signficant amount of money in terms of guarding, food, medical attention, etc.

Bring back Chateau D'if and I'll join you!

Sex change operations…..

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

I get that. That's my point. I think all that trouble and expense is worth it to avoid accidentally killing even one innocent person. Or perhaps even killing a guilty a person who would otherwise express regret and find some redemption before he dies naturally.

But when a guy has no question of guilt and clearly shows no remorse...it's harder to justify making that effort to keep him alive.

I know the moral dilemma you’re in, I do. But I don’t have it. Your conscious, questioning a system that now has 30 yrs of re’dos and you spent $100,000 learning about, so you can use my earnings to make you feel better, against my will, doesn’t cut it for me.
Your feelz doesn’t constitute a crisis on my part. Go assure the system is more rigorous if you need to. This case is a good example. Snuff him!

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Many of the people Innocence Project has freed have been in prison far less time.

List of exonerated death row inmates - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Here are 3 examples:

Released in 1977
Delbert Tibbs, Florida. Convicted in 1974.[95][96][97]

Released in 1978

• Earl Patrick Charles, Georgia. Convicted 1975.
• Gary Radi, Montana. Convicted 1975.

If you were innocent, would you spend 3 years in prison?

I hear you. My beef is being against the penalty at first blush. Then considering it’s better to allow someone to live in a box for 30 years+, as being humane, because of your personal feelz. It’s not.
I guess my vengeful side is, those that plead guilty with unrefutable evidence, they don’t get a free out. They live 40 yrs Vietnam prisoner style.
The system is intended to be a deterrent, that also means don’t get into those type situations or life styles.

 

[Indianaftw]

I don't agree with the death penalty as a policy matter, because I think the potential of mistakenly killing an innocent person is simply so grievous that it overcomes any counterarguments. If you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, then lock 'em up and throw away the key.

That said, when you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, for whom there is no question of guilt, and who shows no remorse for his actions, man, it's tempting to save all that hassle of imprisoning the guy, and just get it over with.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/us/sayfullo-saipov-nyc-terror-attack-sentencing-wednesday/index.html

Why does it seem to work in Singapore?

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I don't agree with the death penalty as a policy matter, because I think the potential of mistakenly killing an innocent person is simply so grievous that it overcomes any counterarguments. If you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, then lock 'em up and throw away the key.

That said, when you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, for whom there is no question of guilt, and who shows no remorse for his actions, man, it's tempting to save all that hassle of imprisoning the guy, and just get it over with.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/us/sayfullo-saipov-nyc-terror-attack-sentencing-wednesday/index.html

Maybe create a standard above "beyond a reasonable doubt" for the death penalty?

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

that would make a great movie

 

[Indianaftw]

Maybe create a standard above "beyond a reasonable doubt" for the death penalty?

How bout the United States buys a piece of land somewhere. Wherever. 3rd time you get convicted you go there. It has its own governing body and they can get training while there. You screw up there and death penalty is in full affect.

They are removed from our country and had chances realizing the consequences. If they are deemed mentally incompetent they go somewhere else. If they continue on their path their end is their choice.

We, as a country can remove these people and go on about our normal lives.

 

[Crayfish57]

Huh? Our system gets it right most of the time, but no system is perfect, and if you wrongly kill a guy, you can't undo that. So even one case doesn't seem worth it to me.

Personally, I'd prefer we readopt penal transportation. Let's pick a state no one likes (Florida?) and build a wall along the entire border. Anyone who is convicted of a serious crime gets dumped over the wall. Let them fend for themselves.

How about we just use the vast estates of all the crooked democrat politicians? How many does Biden have ? Pelosi? Just to name a few. And before you even go there Trump had his properties before politics so don't even try it.

 

[Crayfish57]

How bout the United States buys a piece of land somewhere. Wherever. 3rd time you get convicted you go there. It has its own governing body and they can get training while there. You screw up there and death penalty is in full affect.

They are removed from our country and had chances realizing the consequences. If they are deemed mentally incompetent they go somewhere else. If they continue on their path their end is their choice.

We as a country can remove these people and go on about out normal lives.

Ever seen Papillon ? The original?

I'd say the mistakes Goat is clinging to are a very very remote part of the whole question. What about the innocent that get killed when a convicted criminal gets out and kills again? no system is perfect. With advanced DNA the margin for error has to be very tiny.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

How about we just use the vast estates of all the crooked democrat politicians? How many does Biden have ? Pelosi? Just to name a few. And before you even go there Trump had his properties before politics so don't even try it.

I don't hand out yellow cards for stupid posts, but thanks for trying.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

How bout the United States buys a piece of land somewhere. Wherever. 3rd time you get convicted you go there. It has its own governing body and they can get training while there. You screw up there and death penalty is in full affect.

They are removed from our country and had chances realizing the consequences. If they are deemed mentally incompetent they go somewhere else. If they continue on their path their end is their choice.

We, as a country can remove these people and go on about our normal lives.

Explosive necklace.
There was a movie. It should work.
Or maybe use Martha’s Vineyard.

 

[Indianaftw]

Ever seen Papillon ? The original?

I'd say the mistakes Goat is clinging to are a very very remote part of the whole question. What about the innocent that get killed when a convicted criminal gets out and kills again? no system is perfect. With advanced DNA the margin for error has to be very tiny.

Yup but what's wrong with the thought. 3 strike rule. Maybe move it up for murder.

You wanna hang out with those people live free with them and try to get better or not. Bottom.line they lose the opportunity to live here until they can prove otherwise. Just a thought.

Hey I'm trying to find solutions.

 

[Crayfish57]

I don't hand out yellow cards for stupid posts, but thanks for trying.

If you did you would have banned yourself years ago

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

If you did you would have banned yourself years ago

No doubt.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I don't hand out yellow cards for stupid posts, but thanks for trying.

Kangaroo Court fine for a soccer analogy not in the soccer thread? Can I get a ruling?

 

[DANC]

Why does it seem to work in Singapore?

Public caning.

There's a reason public shaming was used by early European American settlers. It's effective.

Same for public paddling in schools until the libs started running Big Education.

 

[hoosboot]

I would march him into Times Square and blow his brains out. Done and done.

Nah...you wouldn't.

 

[NPT]

I don't agree with the death penalty as a policy matter, because I think the potential of mistakenly killing an innocent person is simply so grievous that it overcomes any counterarguments. If you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, then lock 'em up and throw away the key.

That said, when you find someone who you simply can't justify being released back into society, for whom there is no question of guilt, and who shows no remorse for his actions, man, it's tempting to save all that hassle of imprisoning the guy, and just get it over with.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/us/sayfullo-saipov-nyc-terror-attack-sentencing-wednesday/index.html

I used to be a strong supporter of the death penalty but not as much now. I think you have to be damn sure that a person is guilty and an eyewitness alone is not good enough because I think they are way too unreliable.

However, I think that people in prison should have to earn their keep.