ADVERTISEMENT

Texas Lt Governor thinks senior citizens

It sounds like a whole lot of conservatives will be 100% pro choice if we can just prove it is good for the economy.
Not this one. That being said, I understand that I am male, and have very little input in the choice of abortion or not. Maybe that is how it should be.
I for one, though, would go through great pains to avoid an abortion, if it were up to me. IMO, it is one of the most vile acts ever created by man, or woman.
 
You are missing the point. Of course COVID-19 will stress any system. Zeke said death panels were make believe. They aren't. They will always lurk in the bureacracy of publicly funded health care. That's by necessity and it goes with the territory. If you want to look at this absent COVID-19; dig up my post of months ago about the French hospitals.

Rationing has to exist in a publicly funded system. This is why there will always be private insurance for those who can afford it just as in France and other countries.
 
Rationing has to exist in a publicly funded system. This is why there will always be private insurance for those who can afford it just as in France and other countries.

Or those who can afford to come to the US for care. Lots of anecdotes about Canadians coming to US. Mexico is also becoming a medical tourism destination. But then US has a black market for prescription drugs from Canada so there is that.
 
Or those who can afford to come to the US for care. Lots of anecdotes about Canadians coming to US. Mexico is also becoming a medical tourism destination. But then US has a black market for prescription drugs from Canada so there is that.

Have a friend who traveled to Thailand for bariatric surgery. Came home thinner along with a girlfriend from Bangkok.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spartans9312
Not this one. That being said, I understand that I am male, and have very little input in the choice of abortion or not. Maybe that is how it should be.
I for one, though, would go through great pains to avoid an abortion, if it were up to me. IMO, it is one of the most vile acts ever created by man, or woman.
OK . . . but in IUJIMworld, who gets to decide whether a woman can have an abortion legally? Is that something that the government can deny the woman, if it's her decision that having an abortion is the right thing to do in her circumstances? Or is there freedom for the woman to make a decision - good or bad - without governmental interference?

That's the real choice that government officials have to decide on . . . are they in a position to decide for all women what the decision must be, or do they determine that they're not the person(s) to make that call for every woman?

What's the call in IUJIMworld?
 
OK . . . but in IUJIMworld, who gets to decide whether a woman can have an abortion legally? Is that something that the government can deny the woman, if it's her decision that having an abortion is the right thing to do in her circumstances? Or is there freedom for the woman to make a decision - good or bad - without governmental interference?

That's the real choice that government officials have to decide on . . . are they in a position to decide for all women what the decision must be, or do they determine that they're not the person(s) to make that call for every woman?

What's the call in IUJIMworld?
I believe we are long past the govt denying abortions. That being said, I do hold out hope that something is done about late term abortions. Once again, I understand that my role in this, as a male, means nothing. So what happens in my little IUJIMworld is really irrelevant.
 
At some point, but who knows when that point is? A business leader or a epidemiologist?

You’re being too kind. This view that America needs to just throw up their hands is a refusal to acknowledge facts. They want to ignore science. Some do these folks are the same people who believe the earth is 5000 years old. I don’t mind their stupidity when it comes to things like that but I am really pissed off when they are espousing this view that could kill millions and millions of people. It’s too difficult for them to extrapolate anything beyond what they can see in their neighborhood.

25% of the US population say thinks the earth sun revolves around the earth. And a similar percentage believe that humans and dinosaurs cohabitated the earth. The man in charge of the coronavirus team does not acknowledge the theory of evolution. The President said he would bring in the best people gets most of his advice from his son-in-law. And now Trump wants to pack the churches on Easter Sunday.

There are people on this board preaching that we should just go back to normal next week. And one of the moderators told me I’m the one that needs to calm down. I don’t get it! And the Gallup poll says it’s 60% of the population supports Trump’s handling of the pandemic. Hong Kong flu killed about 100,000 Americans in 1968. I’m afraid there may not be a seachange in the perception of this difficulty until they are a quarter of 1 million deaths.
 
  • Like
Reactions: largemouth
You’re being too kind. This view that America needs to just throw up their hands is a refusal to acknowledge facts. They want to ignore science. Some do these folks are the same people who believe the earth is 5000 years old. I don’t mind their stupidity when it comes to things like that but I am really pissed off when they are espousing this view that could kill millions and millions of people. It’s too difficult for them to extrapolate anything beyond what they can see in their neighborhood.

25% of the US population say thinks the earth sun revolves around the earth. And a similar percentage believe that humans and dinosaurs cohabitated the earth. The man in charge of the coronavirus team does not acknowledge the theory of evolution. The President said he would bring in the best people gets most of his advice from his son-in-law. And now Trump wants to pack the churches on Easter Sunday.

There are people on this board preaching that we should just go back to normal next week. And one of the moderators told me I’m the one that needs to calm down. I don’t get it! And the Gallup poll says it’s 60% of the population supports Trump’s handling of the pandemic. Hong Kong flu killed about 100,000 Americans in 1968. I’m afraid there may not be a seachange in the perception of this difficulty until they are a quarter of 1 million deaths.

The most powerful force in the world is "it won't happen to me".
 
  • Like
Reactions: DerrickC
Just to illustrate a real-life example of the sort of risk-weighing that Ranger was alluding to - although this one is predominantly an exercise of balancing medical risks - let me recount for y'all what happened this morning, when I took MrsSope to a midtown Atlanta doctor's office for an appointment. But first some background . . .

I think I've mentioned before that MrsSope has a medical condition called Crohn's Disease. It is an autoimmune disorder where the body for some unknown reason attacks itself where the colon connects with the small intestine. MrsSope developed this condition in her late 20s, and has undergone 3 surgeries associated with it. One was when a doctor punctured her colon when doing the first colonoscopy in the initial diagnosis process; she had to have her colon repaired. Two years later at the end of her pregnancy with SopeJr#2 her intestines closed down completely and she was hospitalized for 3 1/2 weeks trying to hold off contractions until SopeJr#2 could be born prematurely, but without need of incubation . . . when she got pregnant with #2 she weighed 119 pounds, and when she delivered #2 she weighed 113 pounds with the baby. 6 weeks after the delivery the docs performed a resection - removing the infected/closed portion of the intestines and then reconnecting what remained of them. The third surgery was years later, to remove scar tissue from the earlier surgeries.

Other than those episodes she has led a highly active life, raising two boys to young men, getting a third college degree, earning a black belt in a form of karate, running daily at speeds and distances most people wouldn't dream about attempting, being a featured soloist in performances in front of audiences of several hundred people, being valued a member of several choruses, and holding down a full-time teaching career in a Title I school while accruing well over 100 unused sick days . . . not to mention putting up with the likes of me (76-1, you just think I'm a horse's ass . . . MrsSope has the stories to prove the fact of it . . . .) All of this was without need of any medication . . . . In short, she's been productive her entire life despite having Crohn's Disease. All that is aside from the fact that she is the love of my life . . . but I digress . . . .

So last October she had her every-ten-years colonoscopy, and the pics taken of her intestines revealed that she has an opening the size of the ball of a ball point pen for all of her food to pass through. After some disappointing attempts to work with one gastroenterologist, we arranged for a visit with a highly respected gastroenterologist in mid-town Atlanta a couple of weeks ago. He'd look at her, look at the picture, look at her, inquire of the status of her symptoms (virtually none), then look at the picture . . . after a while it became clear that he couldn't believe she was functioning at all, much less functioning at a relatively high level . . . without any medications. It was pretty clear to us that his go-to move when a patient presents with her condition would be some form of surgery . . . but he wasn't sure since she appeared perfectly healthy, and acknowledged virtually no symptoms. So he sent us to see a colorectal surgeon in the same building . . . today . . .

. . . two weeks ago we pulled into the Piedmont Hospital complex to visit the gastroenterologist after driving through intense Atlanta traffic, then we parked in the parking deck designated for the doc's building and went to his office together. No one was wearing a face mask.

Today we drove down a half-empty I-75 at the end of the morning rush hour, arriving 45 minutes early. The parking deck for the doc's building was closed due to the corona virus . . . so we parked in the hospital parking deck . . . the doc's building's doors were locked due to corona virus concerns . . . we had to go to another building's entrance where access to the doc's building via an over-street walkway was available, and upon entering those doors we came to a table of medical professionals in surgical masks who were screening for those eligible to enter the building and those who weren't. MrsSope identified herself, her destination and her business, and they medical professionals gave her a name tag that sufficed as a hall pass. They sent me back to the car in the hospital parking deck . . . (Thanks Rock for the Playing for Change videos . . . they helped pass the time . . . .).

The colorectal surgeon had the same reaction to MrsSope that the gastroenterologist had: "Have you seen the pictures?" was his first statement to MrsSope. He kept looking at the pics, then at her and marveled that she was functioning relatively normally . . .

. . . but then the expected news came: there are 3 options, (a) do nothing until her intestines close completely and then do emergency surgery, (b) do a colonoscopy and add an intestines version of an angioplasty, using a balloon to open the closed portion and put her on some meds to help, or (c) do another resection and put her on some meds.

The considerations in front of us are many, including whether to risk infection with the corona virus - or something else - by having surgery at all, how long not having surgery might last for her, her current state of health and the relative health she might have if she waits, whether to use a hospital bed for her surgery when it might be needed for a corona virus patient, whether to have it during this school year (while the school is online at best) or wait until summer, whether to retire now or try another year of teaching . . . the factors are many, the risks relatively clear but still a bit imponderable . . .

. . . having surgery means a whole bunch of people will have to work during the corona virus outbreak. Not having surgery could lead to an intestinal blockage . . . managing these risks are just one couple's issues among millions of couples and individuals who have their own imponderables - medical, economic, social, family, cognitive, special needs and so on . . . .

The good news for us is that we're among the lucky ones . . . we have good insurance, good doctors, good savings accounts and the potential for real retirement options if it comes to that. How to manage these risks isn't that tough comparatively, as imponderable as the risks seem to be . . .

. . . how to manage these types of risks, the risks to the economic well-being of many people who live paycheck to paycheck, and the risks posed by one group going about their imponderables on another group going about their imponderables is the task before our government . . . for those on both sides of the political aisle. I think that's what Ranger and twenty were trying to get at. And I appreciate their efforts, no matter how cold and unempathetic they are . . . . ;)

I guess the only thing I would ask for anyone reading this whole thing is to remember that most people are just trying to do the best they can with what they have on their plate.
This is an outstanding post. Thank you very much for sharing.
 
Wrong! I have no empathy and am a loony!
I don't think you are loony or lack empathy, but until I get a feel for the timeline you are looking at, it's hard to comment.

Based on the experience of other countries and the comments of experts the US is approximately 3 weeks from the peak with current lockdown measures. And even in Italy they are still seeing days of record infections and deaths to this day.

If you are saying that the US must reopen (to some degree) in 3-4 weeks, then that is insane. To reopen at the peak of infection IMO will double down of the effect on the medical system and economy.

There is undoubtedly going to be an incredible impact on the economy and Americans are going to have to make sacrifices for sure. And that's something many Americans don't seem willing to make. I get that the economy can't take this indefinitely, but opening too soon will not only resolve it, but will likely exacerbate the situation.
 
You are missing the point. Of course COVID-19 will stress any system. Zeke said death panels were make believe. They aren't. They will always lurk in the bureacracy of publicly funded health care. That's by necessity and it goes with the territory. If you want to look at this absent COVID-19; dig up my post of months ago about the French hospitals.
They just don't call them death panels but essentially that's what they are and it is by necessity because resources are limited even in the best of times.
 
I don't think you are loony or lack empathy, but until I get a feel for the timeline you are looking at, it's hard to comment.

Based on the experience of other countries and the comments of experts the US is approximately 3 weeks from the peak with current lockdown measures. And even in Italy they are still seeing days of record infections and deaths to this day.

If you are saying that the US must reopen (to some degree) in 3-4 weeks, then that is insane. To reopen at the peak of infection IMO will double down of the effect on the medical system and economy.

There is undoubtedly going to be an incredible impact on the economy and Americans are going to have to make sacrifices for sure. And that's something many Americans don't seem willing to make. I get that the economy can't take this indefinitely, but opening too soon will not only resolve it, but will likely exacerbate the situation.
I’m not saying that the US must open in two or three weeks. I’m saying that this is unsustainable in the mid to long term. If the virus does not die off as the weather dries up, and vaccine is a ways away, hard decisions will need to be made. Otherwise we’ll be at an unemployment percentage that can lead to the downfall of the republic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spartans9312
I’m not saying that the US must open in two or three weeks. I’m saying that this is unsustainable in the mid to long term. If the virus does not die off as the weather dries up, and vaccine is a ways away, hard decisions will need to be made. Otherwise we’ll be at an unemployment percentage that can lead to the downfall of the republic.

Here is a sobering response to the rosy WH outlook. Feel free to look this guy up. He’s the real deal.

 
Rationing has to exist in a publicly funded system. This is why there will always be private insurance for those who can afford it just as in France and other countries.
Scarcity is a man-made construct and a lie.

In Slovenia, the socially owned system is far better at keeping the equipment operating full time, thus requiring fewer machines. The US by contrast is flooded with hospitals in certain areas. How come the shortage?
 
Last edited:
Scarcity is a man-made construct and a lie.

In Slovenia, the socially owned system is far better at keeping the equipment operating full time, thus requiring fewer machines. The US by contrast is flooded with hospitals in certain areas. How come the shortage?
Oh in Slovenia. Well **** they are the same as us we can easily adopt everything ****ing Slovenia does.

Let’s check on what Vanuatu is doing too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spartans9312
Oh in Slovenia. Well **** they are the same as us we can easily adopt everything ****ing Slovenia does.

Let’s check on what Vanuatu is doing too.
Slovenia is about the sizes of New Jersey, geographically, and has the population of about New Mexico - less than a quarter the population of New Jersey.

I don't know how to do that math . . . I'd have to think about it for a bit to discern whether there's anything there for us to consider favorably, and I don't have the time or inclination right now.

I guess the point is that in a federal system like we have in the US there may be lessons to learn from the Slovenia experience, and those lessons may have limited or different application in various parts of the US. So you're right in the sense that we ought not to do what Slovenia did just because it's been done before . . . but I'd also argue that rejecting any wisdom that might be drawn from the Slovenia experience might also be a mistake.
 
Scarcity is a man-made construct and a lie.

In Slovenia, the socially owned system is far better at keeping the equipment operating full time, thus requiring fewer machines. The US by contrast is flooded with hospitals in certain areas. How come the shortage?

The government owning the entire system including the equipment isn't something I foresee even in a Medicare 4 all system which we might adopt. I see the health care delivery system and employees working in a privately owned system as we currently have.

The rationing I was referring to would be care not included in a Medicare 4 all plan whereby the cost of some procedures given the patient's prognosis would not be covered. The patient would have to pay for the procedure out of pocket or have private insurance..
 
Slovenia is about the sizes of New Jersey, geographically, and has the population of about New Mexico - less than a quarter the population of New Jersey.

I don't know how to do that math . . . I'd have to think about it for a bit to discern whether there's anything there for us to consider favorably, and I don't have the time or inclination right now.

I guess the point is that in a federal system like we have in the US there may be lessons to learn from the Slovenia experience, and those lessons may have limited or different application in various parts of the US. So you're right in the sense that we ought not to do what Slovenia did just because it's been done before . . . but I'd also argue that rejecting any wisdom that might be drawn from the Slovenia experience might also be a mistake.

Correct. How does their success in having fewer people in a geographical area overlay with our experience of having much higher expenses and fewer operators in rural areas in the U.S.? What's the scalability of what they've been able to do? How does their system advantages and disadvantages compare to Singapore (more private components)? To Canada (similar geographic area)? There's a lot to learn and I'm skeptical when people (not saying that Ranger is one of them) just throw up their hands and say "that won't work here because we're different".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sope Creek
My wife and I who are in our 80s have quarantined ourselves.

Our young friends remain actively living pretty much per usual. This includes dropping by our house to see how we are doing.

So much for our attempt at a quarantine.
I pray for folks like you Hoot1. My Dad is 87 and in the nursing home so he is quarantined just because the nursing home won't let people in to visit. This makes me happy because he is safe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hoot1
That's cool, I was called some names last week for daring to suggest Trump isn't perfect. It happens.

That modeling done in the UK was 18 months of intermittent lock downs that collapse supply chains. Simply put, we won't possibly go there. There will be a number. I don't know what it is, but the experts will say "open today and we'll 'only' lost 50,000 additional" and the world will open up. I don't know the number, but that number exists. We know it does because we are willing to lose 20,000-50,000 because of the flu without shutting down.
Didn't we lose 13k in 2009-10 because of the swine flu? This was just in the U.S. How come we didn't shut down everything back then? I hear people say that this virus is so much more dangerous. I am not sure I buy that because almost everyone who gets this virus continues to live. It's the elderly and those with bad immune systems for a variety of reasons that we have to watch out for. I am in favor of those people being quarantined. But does everyone have to? If you quarantine those in danger and let everyone else get the virus then the virus will die out.
 
Didn't we lose 13k in 2009-10 because of the swine flu? This was just in the U.S. How come we didn't shut down everything back then? I hear people say that this virus is so much more dangerous. I am not sure I buy that because almost everyone who gets this virus continues to live. It's the elderly and those with bad immune systems for a variety of reasons that we have to watch out for. I am in favor of those people being quarantined. But does everyone have to? If you quarantine those in danger and let everyone else get the virus then the virus will die out.
Stick to being a fake pastor, and let T.rump handle being a fake doctor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UncleMark
Didn't we lose 13k in 2009-10 because of the swine flu? This was just in the U.S. How come we didn't shut down everything back then? I hear people say that this virus is so much more dangerous. I am not sure I buy that because almost everyone who gets this virus continues to live. It's the elderly and those with bad immune systems for a variety of reasons that we have to watch out for. I am in favor of those people being quarantined. But does everyone have to? If you quarantine those in danger and let everyone else get the virus then the virus will die out.

Those deaths took place over 16-18 months. We may lose that many by mid April.
 
Didn't we lose 13k in 2009-10 because of the swine flu? This was just in the U.S. How come we didn't shut down everything back then? I hear people say that this virus is so much more dangerous. I am not sure I buy that because almost everyone who gets this virus continues to live. It's the elderly and those with bad immune systems for a variety of reasons that we have to watch out for. I am in favor of those people being quarantined. But does everyone have to? If you quarantine those in danger and let everyone else get the virus then the virus will die out.

Young people do not die, but they are being hospitalized at a high rate.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/coronavirus-young-people-hospitalized-covid-19-chart/

So if they get infected too fast they too will overwhelm medicine. Also if you Google it, hospitalized people tend to suffer permanent lung damage.

How do we quasi quarantine. Does the kid go to school and back home to a parent battling cancer? Does the nurse at a nursing home hang out at a party then go to work? Do the elderly church members get a visit by you after you greeted a young adult group? How do 70 year olds get food, shopping next to people who attended a baseball game a week before?

We may need to start opening
 
I pray for folks like you Hoot1. My Dad is 87 and in the nursing home so he is quarantined just because the nursing home won't let people in to visit. This makes me happy because he is safe.

VPM, being safe is important.

However, as a friend who owns several high end nursing homes once told me, "We provide luxury, but there is one thing we cannot provide. The one thing being only the love that a family which visits can provide".
 
Didn't we lose 13k in 2009-10 because of the swine flu? This was just in the U.S. How come we didn't shut down everything back then? I hear people say that this virus is so much more dangerous. I am not sure I buy that because almost everyone who gets this virus continues to live. It's the elderly and those with bad immune systems for a variety of reasons that we have to watch out for. I am in favor of those people being quarantined. But does everyone have to? If you quarantine those in danger and let everyone else get the virus then the virus will die out.
It’s so obvious you don’t think this is an emergency. The fact that you are still preaching in person is unconscionable. This bull headedness is a bit more serious than your stubborn rationalization of all things Trump.
 
  • Like
Reactions: anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Didn't we lose 13k in 2009-10 because of the swine flu? This was just in the U.S. How come we didn't shut down everything back then? I hear people say that this virus is so much more dangerous. I am not sure I buy that because almost everyone who gets this virus continues to live. It's the elderly and those with bad immune systems for a variety of reasons that we have to watch out for. I am in favor of those people being quarantined. But does everyone have to? If you quarantine those in danger and let everyone else get the virus then the virus will die out.

Here is another problem with heading to normal too soon. 46% of medical people who take off protective gear infect themself. 1) what will the quarantined people going to do for doctors 2) what are the rest of us going to do. I am going to theorize that hurried people or tired people make more mistakes.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...en-transfer-germs-when-removing-gloves-gowns/
 
Here is another problem with heading to normal too soon. 46% of medical people who take off protective gear infect themself. 1) what will the quarantined people going to do for doctors 2) what are the rest of us going to do. I am going to theorize that hurried people or tired people make more mistakes.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...en-transfer-germs-when-removing-gloves-gowns/

As of yesterday 150 healthcare workers in Boston had tested positive for coronavirus.
 
It’s so obvious you don’t think this is an emergency. The fact that you are still preaching in person is unconscionable. This bull headedness is a bit more serious than your stubborn rationalization of all things Trump.

Most folks get away saying more stupid things than the average Joe when they invoke religion.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT