Texas Lt Governor thinks senior citizens

[Cortez88]

My points are simple:

1. It is inherently impossible to keep 100% of people in their own homes - if we disagree on that we’re done here
2. Because of #1, we need to determine realistic risks and mitigate, not avoid them for the betterment of the country

1. We are not even close to keeping 100% of the people at home. Essential businesses are operating. Further a great number of people are working from home. Sending me into my office doesn’t change anything.

2. Maybe a WWII approach is the answer. Mobilize those necessary industries and funnel the younger able bodied people to do the work. We do have to keep the supply chain running and it does take people to do that. For example, all the local grocery stores are hiring. They are running a 24/7 logistics operation to get food on the shelves. They are preferentially hiring those recently laid off. If that is what you are talking about, I agree.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

1. We are not even close to keeping 100% of the people at home. Essential businesses are operating. Further a great number of people are working from home. Sending me into my office doesn’t change anything.

2. Maybe a WWII approach is the answer. Mobilize those necessary industries and funnel the younger able bodied people to do the work. We do have to keep the supply chain running and it does take people to do that. For example, all the local grocery stores are hiring. They are running a 24/7 logistics operation to get food on the shelves. They are preferentially hiring those recently laid off. If that is what you are talking about, I agree.

Yes, and because the essential businesses are open, people are going to spread this virus ad nauseum until one of the following happens:

1. Herd immunity
2. Pharmacologic cure
3. The virus pulls a Keyser Soze and disappears

The question is are you willing to let unemployment grow to 20% to seek #3?

 

[Spartans9312]

At some point, but who knows when that point is? A business leader or a epidemiologist?

At this point they both would be guessing

 

[Cortez88]

Yes, and because the essential businesses are open, people are going to spread this virus ad nauseum until one of the following happens:

1. Herd immunity
2. Pharmacologic cure
3. The virus pulls a Keyser Soze and disappears

The question is are you willing to let unemployment grow to 20% to seek #3?

I guess we disagree of the “let” part of this. In Indiana, hotels are considered essential and are business as usual. However, the two largest hotels in Indianapolis voluntarily closed. Why? No guests. We can’t make the hotels stay open and we can’t make people stay in them. This is not some government choice here. It’s just happening.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I guess we disagree of the “let” part of this. In Indiana, hotels are considered essential and are business as usual. However, the two largest hotels in Indianapolis voluntarily closed. Why? No guests. We can’t make the hotels stay open and we can’t make people stay in them. This is not some government choice here. It’s just happening.

That’s not how economics works my friend. Our economy is a kumbayah economy that is 100% intertwined with everything. Why would someone stay at a hotel on travel when they’ve probably been told by their employer not to travel? Why would they stay in Indy at a hotel when all the attractions are closed? Don’t look at the effect, look at the cause.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I don’t follow your logic at all. I’m not talking about murican muscle, I’m talking about facing facts. Eventually the farmers and manufacturers are going to stop working if everybody else does. Or better yet, they keep going into the economy because they have to, because we need them to, and this full containment is impossible.

All I’m saying is we need to face the fact that full containment is a pipe dream and eventually, very soon, we’re going to have to rip off the bandaid.

Ripping off the band-aid is what will collapse the health system like Italy. It seems that is what we are trying to avoid. How many people can be out and about while keeping the ventilator usage under 100%.

Sure, the economy will struggle. Somehow we survived 3.5 years of WWII with a "mend and make do" attitude. We had almost no meat, eggs, butter, clothes, sugar, rubber, or metal on the home front. All that was strictly rationed almost to non-existent. At any point we could have called up the Japanese and told them, " keep what you have, and we'll agree to a peace" and they would have taken it.

I don't know that we want to fight COVID to an unconditional surrender. I suspect the cost will be too high So I agree, we aren't keeping this up for 18 months. But have we lost the ability to even put up a good fight before offering unfavorable terms? Keeping that curve below hospital 100% is the question.

My question for the Lietenant Governor would be this, if his children were asked the scenario that they could keep their jobs and all they have to do is kill him and his wife, would they do it? His estimate of 2% dead is 6 million people. Would you send us back to full production if you knew it would take 6 million people including those in your family/friend circle with complications? That's just using his number of 2%.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

At some point, but who knows when that point is? A business leader or a epidemiologist?

Whoever is right

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Ripping off the band-aid is what will collapse the health system like Italy. It seems that is what we are trying to avoid. How many people can be out and about while keeping the ventilator usage under 100%.

Sure, the economy will struggle. Somehow we survived 3.5 years of WWII with a "mend and make do" attitude. We had almost no meat, eggs, butter, clothes, sugar, rubber, or metal on the home front. All that was strictly rationed almost to non-existent. At any point we could have called up the Japanese and told them, " keep what you have, and we'll agree to a peace" and they would have taken it.

I don't know that we want to fight COVID to an unconditional surrender. I suspect the cost will be too high So I agree, we aren't keeping this up for 18 months. But have we lost the ability to even put up a good fight before offering unfavorable terms? Keeping that curve below hospital 100% is the question.

My question for the Lietenant Governor would be this, if his children were asked the scenario that they could keep their jobs and all they have to do is kill him and his wife, would they do it? His estimate of 2% dead is 6 million people. Would you send us back to full production if you knew it would take 6 million people including those in your family/friend circle with complications? That's just using his number of 2%.

Don’t mistake me as siding with the Lt Gov. I’m just saying these decisions are going to need to be made soon. Not today, but soon. Very soon. Next few weeks soon.

 

[Daydreamer]

Precisely. The only true containment is to close hospitals and close grocery stores and close everything. Because that’s not practical, neither is 100% containment.

But we don't have a containment strategy, we have a "flatten the curve" strategy meant to spread this out so that neither the healthcare system or the economy are overwhelmed. We've already accepted that people are going to get sick and people are going to die. Having a 100 million people sick and out of work is surely worse than 30 million people temporarily unemployed, yes? How do restaurants survive if half their workforce can't come to work?
We're the richest nation that's ever existed. We have plenty of capability to get through this economically with the right leadership.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

At this point they both would be guessing

There is wildly guessing and there is educated guessing. The person who deeply studies analytics who determines the Bears will beat Colts because the Bears defense is better and it is played in Chicago seems more likely to be right than the person who says the Bears will beat the Colts because in the wild a bear will naturally beat a colt.

 

[Spartans9312]

Ripping off the band-aid is what will collapse the health system like Italy. It seems that is what we are trying to avoid. How many people can be out and about while keeping the ventilator usage under 100%.

Sure, the economy will struggle. Somehow we survived 3.5 years of WWII with a "mend and make do" attitude. We had almost no meat, eggs, butter, clothes, sugar, rubber, or metal on the home front. All that was strictly rationed almost to non-existent. At any point we could have called up the Japanese and told them, " keep what you have, and we'll agree to a peace" and they would have taken it.

I don't know that we want to fight COVID to an unconditional surrender. I suspect the cost will be too high So I agree, we aren't keeping this up for 18 months. But have we lost the ability to even put up a good fight before offering unfavorable terms? Keeping that curve below hospital 100% is the question.

My question for the Lietenant Governor would be this, if his children were asked the scenario that they could keep their jobs and all they have to do is kill him and his wife, would they do it? His estimate of 2% dead is 6 million people. Would you send us back to full production if you knew it would take 6 million people including those in your family/friend circle with complications? That's just using his number of 2%.

We were a different country during WWII. More people had livestock and gardens and canned their own vegetables and hunted and fished. Most folks nowadays would have a better chance of blowing their heads off with a canner than getting a finished product.

 

[hoot1]

My wife and I who are in our 80s have quarantined ourselves.

Our young friends remain actively living pretty much per usual. This includes dropping by our house to see how we are doing.

So much for our attempt at a quarantine.

 

[Cortez88]

Ripping off the band-aid is what will collapse the health system like Italy. It seems that is what we are trying to avoid. How many people can be out and about while keeping the ventilator usage under 100%.

Sure, the economy will struggle. Somehow we survived 3.5 years of WWII with a "mend and make do" attitude. We had almost no meat, eggs, butter, clothes, sugar, rubber, or metal on the home front. All that was strictly rationed almost to non-existent. At any point we could have called up the Japanese and told them, " keep what you have, and we'll agree to a peace" and they would have taken it.

I don't know that we want to fight COVID to an unconditional surrender. I suspect the cost will be too high So I agree, we aren't keeping this up for 18 months. But have we lost the ability to even put up a good fight before offering unfavorable terms? Keeping that curve below hospital 100% is the question.

My question for the Lietenant Governor would be this, if his children were asked the scenario that they could keep their jobs and all they have to do is kill him and his wife, would they do it? His estimate of 2% dead is 6 million people. Would you send us back to full production if you knew it would take 6 million people including those in your family/friend circle with complications? That's just using his number of 2%.

To tell everyone to go about your business without first propping up the healthcare industry would be negligent. If that is the route that policy makers wish to take, they should direct almost all of the initial aid to the hospitals equipment manufacturers. You can’t knowingly throw millions of patients on them without preparation. It would be a disaster.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

But we don't have a containment strategy, we have a "flatten the curve" strategy meant to spread this out so that neither the healthcare system or the economy are overwhelmed. We've already accepted that people are going to get sick and people are going to die. Having a 100 million people sick and out of work is surely worse than 30 million people temporarily unemployed, yes? How do restaurants survive if half their workforce can't come to work?
We're the richest nation that's ever existed. We have plenty of capability to get through this economically with the right leadership.

Whoa buddy. Who let you use the word “temporarily”? Why would you think that any of these layoffs are temporary? Businesses are being ravaged.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Don’t mistake me as siding with the Lt Gov. I’m just saying these decisions are going to need to be made soon. Not today, but soon. Very soon. Next few weeks soon.

There will have to be a decision point, I am not disagreeing. The goal is to flatten that curve, and we'll have some idea when that curve is flat enough to allow people back out. Note that China has now started returning to business. I am just arguing it has to be an evidence-based decision. We can rebuild an economy. In fact, we may rebuild faster than much of the world because we have learned an important lesson on the need to keep some industrial capacity inside the US.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

To tell everyone to go about your business without first propping up the healthcare industry would be negligent. If that is the route that policy makers wish to take, they should direct almost all of the initial aid to the hospitals equipment manufacturers. You can’t knowingly throw millions of patients on them without preparation. It would be a disaster.

I think this is a other very viable leg of the move forward strategy. Turn stadiums, arenas, etc into makeshift hospitals. Add ICU bed capacity and once we have “enough”, open it back up.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

There will have to be a decision point, I am not disagreeing. The goal is to flatten that curve, and we'll have some idea when that curve is flat enough to allow people back out. Note that China has now started returning to business. I am just arguing it has to be an evidence-based decision. We can rebuild an economy. In fact, we may rebuild faster than much of the world because we have learned an important lesson on the need to keep some industrial capacity inside the US.

China is going to spike cases again. It’s just simple logic. Or they won’t test, which will be just fine for half of this China-loving forum.

edit: to your other point there should be some positives that come out of this like repatriating needed supply chains. Hopefully China will not have carte blanche to run the worlds supply chain any longer

 

[mcmurtry66]

To tell everyone to go about your business without first propping up the healthcare industry would be negligent. If that is the route that policy makers wish to take, they should direct almost all of the initial aid to the hospitals equipment manufacturers. You can’t knowingly throw millions of patients on them without preparation. It would be a disaster.

Good post.

 

[Spartans9312]

There will have to be a decision point, I am not disagreeing. The goal is to flatten that curve, and we'll have some idea when that curve is flat enough to allow people back out. Note that China has now started returning to business. I am just arguing it has to be an evidence-based decision. We can rebuild an economy. In fact, we may rebuild faster than much of the world because we have learned an important lesson on the need to keep some industrial capacity inside the US.

There is a real chance we see the curve flatten and then in June another spike.

 

[Standard Issue]

My wife and I who are in our 80s have quarantined ourselves.

Our young friends remain actively living pretty much per usual. This includes dropping by our house to see how we are doing.

So much for our attempt at a quarantine.

Don't open the !#@$!! door!
My wife has sisters in southern Indiana and none of them ever lock their doors during the day. One sister and her husband are in their seventies and not in great health. Their adult kids still just wander into their house. My wife told them to lock their door and tell the kids to call. Their response was "Oh we couldn't do that".

It's maddening.

 

[mainway_toys]

would be willing to die to help save the economy. Remember how appalled they pretended to be about the make believe death panels? https://www.thedailybeast.com/texas...-willing-to-die-to-save-economy-for-grandkids

People still don't seem to get that this isn't just an "old people" thing.

https://thebulletin.org/2008/01/the-growing-number-of-immunocompromised/

 

[Marvin the Martian]

China is going to spike cases again. It’s just simple logic. Or they won’t test, which will be just fine for half of this China-loving forum.

I imagine China will spike again. I don't see any way around that. But that is sort of the model for us, get to a downslope and open back up. We are way past the point of containing this forever. We are more to the point at keeping the number infected at a level our medical professionals can handle. That means under the ventilator number, under the bed number. Both of those can be added to, but unfortunately our number of doctors and nurses aren't going to grow quickly.

But go back to the point that Cortez made. How many people would be heading back to crowded restaurants tonight if they opened up ? How many would be back at sporting events, how many taking a flight to the Grand Canyon? To an extent, the economy is royally screwed for months no matter what the government does. I am sure that some healthy people wouldn't go out to eat tonight, let alone those with some medical condition. Even if Trump eliminated all regulations and ordered governors to do the same, what do you think the economy would be like? Vaccines are about the only way I see us getting back to what we thought of as "normal".

Sadly, we know that COVID-19 has already split into two strains. So just like the flu, we are quite possible to need yearly vaccinations against what we think will be the next strain. Though maybe not, I doubt anyone knows for sure.

 

[mainway_toys]

Im not being as ass, but I honestly don’t know what that means. Take your restaurant example. So we allow dine in again. What will the numbers look like? Who will be eating in? 2020 is going to be a historically shitty economic year. It just is and we can’t prevent that.

If we can somehow force everyone to get back out there and operate like the virus isn’t here, we have a very real risk on millions of infections. That will overrun and collapse our healthcare systems. That will cause a true panic and civil unrest.

If we pretend the virus isn't here, millions of infections is not a RISK. It's a CERTAINTY. The risk would be millions of DEATHS.

"A true panic and civil unrest" is a gross understatement.

 

[Daydreamer]

Whoa buddy. Who let you use the word “temporarily”? Why would you think that any of these layoffs are temporary? Businesses are being ravaged.

And they will be ravaged if no one can work because they're sick or dead.
And yes, temporarily, with the right leadership. Obviously, legislation is being written to prop up business and labor so they don't go under. It's not nearly enough but we have the wealth to get it done.
The vast majority of jobs impacted are low skill, low wage jobs. Those are pretty easy to rebound and those people are not all that expensive to subsidize in the meantime.
If we fail, it will be a failure of leadership, not because one choice is right and one is wrong.

 

[zeke4ahs]

My wife and I who are in our 80s have quarantined ourselves.

Our young friends remain actively living pretty much per usual. This includes dropping by our house to see how we are doing.

So much for our attempt at a quarantine.

You should not let them in. Most of the young people I know are taking this seriously and are only leaving for essential work and are not even visiting family. FaceTime , Zoom, phone calls. No face to face.

 

[IUJIM]

You should not let them in. Most of the young people I know are taking this seriously and are only leaving for essential work and are not even visiting family. FaceTime , Zoom, phone calls. No face to face.

And yet, you had thousands upon thousands celebrating their spring breaks down in Fla, with no regard for anyone other than themselves. We cancelled our spring break, and it sucked, but it was the right thing to do. Unfortunately, far too many didn't.

 

[Cortez88]

Because it’s Trump, we have to consider what has motivated him to ditch health professionals all of a sudden:

 

[mainway_toys]

China is going to spike cases again. It’s just simple logic. Or they won’t test, which will be just fine for half of this China-loving forum.

Just like everywhere else, China will be playing whack-a-mole with this until everyone is vaccinated. Unlike the US, China will do whatever is necessary to keep the virus in check. That they were so quickly able to get a grip on it was amazing....but they had to lock down an entire province and build walls in the streets in streets of Wuhan to do it.

Sometimes an iron-fisted authoritarian government has an advantage.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Just like everywhere else, China will be playing whack-a-mole with this until everyone is vaccinated. Unlike the US, China will do whatever is necessary to keep the virus in check. That they were so quickly able to get a grip on it was amazing....but they had to lock down an entire province and build walls in the streets in streets of Wuhan to do it.

Sometimes an iron-fisted authoritarian government has an advantage.

Yes, if the US is willing to weld people into their apartments, we too can beat this!

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

greatest generation or boomer generation

There's a clear distinction between these generations. One is great for a reason. The other refused to cede power and continues to screw future generations with crisis after crisis, including their decision to shut down the national economy and generate a $2T stimulus bill that THEY won't have to deal with or pay.

 

[mainway_toys]

Yes, if the US is willing to weld people into their apartments, we too can beat this!

Obviously we can't. We lost the ability to contain it two months ago, leaving us in this "Damned if we do. Damned if we don't" position. The Republican response is to bail out corporations and give Trump half a trillion dollars to dole out to his donors. The rest of us can get sick, die, AND go broke.

 

[hoot1]

Don't open the !#@$!! door!
My wife has sisters in southern Indiana and none of them ever lock their doors during the day. One sister and her husband are in their seventies and not in great health. Their adult kids still just wander into their house. My wife told them to lock their door and tell the kids to call. Their response was "Oh we couldn't do that".

It's maddening.

You should not let them in. Most of the young people I know are taking this seriously and are only leaving for essential work and are not even visiting family. FaceTime , Zoom, phone calls. No face to face.

Standard and Zeke, good advice.

We enjoy their visits and do like to hear what is happening with the world out there.

Our hints about them being carriers may have finally registered as no one showed up yesterday. Wednesday will be the real test as it is our traditional mid-week party day complete with drinks and pot luck snacks for the neighborhood. Predicting that everyone will follow our governor's advice except for one dear friend who is a care giver personified. In her mind, only she can protect us from the virus.

 

[Sope Creek]

There's a clear distinction between these generations. One is great for a reason. The other refused to cede power and continues to screw future generations with crisis after crisis, including their decision to shut down the national economy and generate a $2T stimulus bill that THEY won't have to deal with or pay.

You are naive if that's what you think happened.

What you don't recognize is that the social security/medicare stuff we're arguing about today was put in place by the so-called greatest generation to provide for their parents a little bit (so they wouldn't have to) and later expanding it for themselves so they could enjoy their government-secured retirement years. Boomers just said "hey, this is a great ride, don't change a thing!".

Regarding this stimulus package, I would suggest that you insist on having your way and not having the stimulus pass. See what that gets you. You might not like the outcome as much as you might think . . . .

 

[Standard Issue]

Standard and Zeke, good advice.

We enjoy their visits and do like to hear what is happening with the world out there.

Our hints about them being carriers may have finally registered as no one showed up yesterday. Wednesday will be the real test as it is our traditional mid-week party day complete with drinks and pot luck snacks for the neighborhood. Predicting that everyone will follow our governor's advice except for one dear friend who is a care giver personified. In her mind, only she can protect us from the virus.

Or drag it to your doorstep. Lock your storm door and talk through it.

 

[Sope Creek]

Standard and Zeke, good advice.

We enjoy their visits and do like to hear what is happening with the world out there.

Our hints about them being carriers may have finally registered as no one showed up yesterday. Wednesday will be the real test as it is our traditional mid-week party day complete with drinks and pot luck snacks for the neighborhood. Predicting that everyone will follow our governor's advice except for one dear friend who is a care giver personified. In her mind, only she can protect us from the virus.

Put lemonade and sweet tea plus snacks out on a table in the front yard for them to serve themselves. That ought to make them think twice . . . or satisfy them . . . and get them used to the set up for Halloween!

 

[Ladoga]

Go **** yourself!

Now THAT is the persuasive sort of debate we expect from the left. Nice job. You stretched the intellectual boundaries with that brilliance.

 

[bigmac76]

would be willing to die to help save the economy. Remember how appalled they pretended to be about the make believe death panels? https://www.thedailybeast.com/texas...-willing-to-die-to-save-economy-for-grandkids

Well then, Lt Gov Dan can move to the front of this line and set an example!

 

[mainway_toys]

Well then, Lt Gov Dan can move to the front of this line and set an example!

He can vacation in New York or maybe roll up his sleeves and help out in the hospitals.

 

[iuwclurker]

Yes, and because the essential businesses are open, people are going to spread this virus ad nauseum until one of the following happens:

1. Herd immunity
2. Pharmacologic cure
3. The virus pulls a Keyser Soze and disappears

The question is are you willing to let unemployment grow to 20% to seek #3?

How about producing the 95 masks for everyone, plus surgical gloves? How about a little American ingenuity? Hmmm?

 

[82hoosier]

Don’t mistake me as siding with the Lt Gov. I’m just saying these decisions are going to need to be made soon. Not today, but soon. Very soon. Next few weeks soon.

Bingo! I was scanning through your posts trying to find one that encapsulates what a fool you are. And this has to be it! Do you even know what the word empathy means? And who the hell are you to decide that life and death decisions need to be made over the next couple of weeks?

What has to happen over the next couple of weeks, and what should have been happening for the last couple of months , is the federal government must become actively involved. The military has to get involved in ensuring that food and medical equipment and supplies can be produced and distributed. Meanwhile scientists around the world are working to find a vaccine and a cure. Literally millions of healthcare workers are putting their life at risk to help those who are afflicted.

Trump says he is a wartime president? Bullshit! FDR was a wartime president. Women went to work in factories. Entertainers sold war bonds. Everybody went on food rations. Soldiers went war. Trump is ready to trade millions of people have lives in order to prop up his hotels and get himself reelected. After all almost 40% of the country has been under lockdown for less than a week. So it must be time to give up.