Texas Lt Governor thinks senior citizens

Discussion in 'The Water Cooler' started by zeke4ahs, Mar 23, 2020.

  1. Sope Creek

    Sope Creek Hall of Famer
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    Ennnh . . . I don't always agree with stuff Ranger puts out there, but I sure do respect him and his posting style. I get that he's taking a controversial perspective in this thread . . . it's not easy having to say "yeah, that's all well and good, but we have to eat, and we can't expect others to do all of the heavy lifting to get that done for us".

    He does have empathy . . . I necessarily don't agree with his position in this thread, but he's right in one sense; there are risks that have to be managed, and medical risk is only one of them. At some point there will have to be an exercise of managing some medical risks for some - the most vulnerable - while at the same time allowing those who have less medical risk get on with the business of work in a relatively public setting.

    That we're not prepared for this is a political issue that we can address at the election . . . in the meantime, ramping up the preparation for increasing work activity while managing the medical risk of the vulnerable is a phase that we're going to be facing soon . . . barking at Ranger won't make that go away.
     
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  2. INRanger27

    INRanger27 All-American
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    Wow, this forum sure has attracted its share of crazies
     
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  3. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    Ranger is right in that this conversation will have to happen. The British scenarios suggested that food shortages and riots were likely in the most dire scenarios. I don't think we will push it that far. I also think most people are more resourceful than riots after 2-3 weeks. I really hope my faith is not misplaced.
     
  4. INRanger27

    INRanger27 All-American
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    Wrong! I have no empathy and am a loony!
     
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  5. Sope Creek

    Sope Creek Hall of Famer
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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    That's cool, I was called some names last week for daring to suggest Trump isn't perfect. It happens.

    That modeling done in the UK was 18 months of intermittent lock downs that collapse supply chains. Simply put, we won't possibly go there. There will be a number. I don't know what it is, but the experts will say "open today and we'll 'only' lost 50,000 additional" and the world will open up. I don't know the number, but that number exists. We know it does because we are willing to lose 20,000-50,000 because of the flu without shutting down.
     
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  7. Sope Creek

    Sope Creek Hall of Famer
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    Desperate times, desperate people . . . and sometimes only the specter of desperate times can lead .people to desperation . . . .
     
  8. INRanger27

    INRanger27 All-American
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    Yes exactly. I appreciate Sope’s vote of confidence but I don’t think what I’m saying is even remotely controversial to anybody which critical thinking skills. If people are reading my posts as “open it up, now!” then they have poor reading comprehension skills.

    We cannot let this devolve into 30M of unemployed citizens which is a sure bet if this lockdown persists. We cannot let this devolve into riots or worse.
     
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  9. zeke4ahs

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    True, I’m just talking about the ones I know. Every single girl cancelled their spring break, and they talked about not taking the risk to bring it back to their families . My niece and all of her young friends with young children are doing all kinds of creative play dates apart. A school system had a parade on Sunday where all the teachers drove by in cars with signs and the kids were out with balloons and signs waving at them. Just things to keep spirits up. My neighbor went to Walmart today during senior citizen time and said he saw all kinds of people hugging each other, shaking hands, etc. So way too many people period not taking it seriously.
     
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  10. INRanger27

    INRanger27 All-American
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    Did you secure royalty payments on the word desperate?
     
  11. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    Liz Cheney I think sums up the problem surprisingly well, "There will be no normally functioning economy if our hospitals are overwhelmed and thousands of Americans of all ages, including our doctors and nurses, lay dying because we have failed to do what's necessary to stop the virus".
     
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  12. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    Unfortunately the proximity of your posts in a thread about the Lt Gov saying to open it up now leads to an easy conclusion that you are saying that.
     
  13. JamieDimonsBalls

    JamieDimonsBalls All-Big Ten
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    How is that possible if the construct was signed into law in 1935? They were not empowered at that point. I admit I don't know much about the specific changes along the historical timeline, so if you would like to point to specifics, I'm open to listen to this counterargument. Most of the subsequent benefit changes that happened when that generation was active in key positions seem to be expansion or inclusion of those with disabilities and other nuances.

    Two points on this:

    1) Yes, I agree, that is what they've done the entire time they've held key positions of political power. How selfish of them. They chose to have far less children than prior generations and KNOW about the demographic impact of their generation, and yet, they've done literally nothing of substance to address SS or other entitlement issues (e.g. Medicare).

    2) The generation is woefully prepared for retirement, which is part of the reason you see so many boomers maintaining jobs.

    The 2018 Retirement Confidence Survey by the Employee Benefit Research Institute and the independent research firm, Greenwald and Associates, found that 45% of workers report that the total value of their household’s savings and investments is less than $25,000.2 This is not enough to cover one year's expenses. Based on information from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, adults between ages 65 and 74 spend, on average, $48,885 a year.3

    A second big question is how to measure how well baby boomers are preparing for retirement. Studies that focus only on personal saving put aside for retirement yield bleak conclusions. One found that in 1991 the median household headed by a 65-69 year old had financial assets of only $14,000. But expanding the measure to include Social Security, pensions, housing, and other wealth boosts median wealth to about $270,000.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-aging-of-america-will-the-baby-boom-be-ready-for-retirement/

    We have no choice at this point BUT to pass the stimulus package. The global economy has been effectively shut down. But, let's be honest with ourselves here. You are retired. You don't care that taxes have to go up because it will impact you far less than someone my age who is just coming into their earning prime. Nor should you. Your interests lie elsewhere.

    Two other points that warrant inclusion:
    • Due to the shit show that has become Washington and our political system, we no longer have the best and brightest striving for public office. Maybe not all of that falls on the Boomers, but this has unfolded under their time in leadership. Maybe Gen X is weak when it comes to leadership? But, we are now faced with Biden vs. Trump and the Dem runner-up was Bernie, who looks like the guy from Tales from the Crypt. Therefore, we are stuck with a Boomer and a Silent Gen/Boomer (depending on how you categorize Joe, who's kids are more typical of what you'd expect a President to look like).
    • Look at Congressional approval ratings during the last 30 years, when Boomers came into power. There is a clear lack of leadership among the generation in politics. Clearly you don't see that in the private sector. Why is that? (I don't have the answer, but find it perplexing)
     
  14. iuwclurker

    iuwclurker All-Big Ten
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    To me, Ranger’s point is a no brainer. The real issue is, are we going to do something about it? We, meaning the most powerful government in the history of mankind, with virtually unlimited resources and a nation willing to overcome this. The solution lies elsewhere than any of Ranger’s three fatalistic choices. The solution lies in producing and providing PPE if two weeks isolation isn’t enough. It means producing the PPE during those two weeks and getting it out to those most important to the next two weeks, so we can continue moving forward.

    The necessity level exuded by Potus et al is far too low right now. He should be operating on worst-case scenario, not pollyanna missives.
     
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  15. iuwclurker

    iuwclurker All-Big Ten
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    The $2T Shouldn’t focus on helping companies survive it should focus on putting companies to work. It’s a wartime situation. Trump said so himself. We don’t pretend that it’s economy as usual. No ,we alter our production
     
  16. iuwclurker

    iuwclurker All-Big Ten
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    To put it in military terms, our nation has been on standby waiting in the barracks. Now it’s time to get working. Now it’s time to go to war.
     
  17. Sope Creek

    Sope Creek Hall of Famer
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    Just to illustrate a real-life example of the sort of risk-weighing that Ranger was alluding to - although this one is predominantly an exercise of balancing medical risks - let me recount for y'all what happened this morning, when I took MrsSope to a midtown Atlanta doctor's office for an appointment. But first some background . . .

    I think I've mentioned before that MrsSope has a medical condition called Crohn's Disease. It is an autoimmune disorder where the body for some unknown reason attacks itself where the colon connects with the small intestine. MrsSope developed this condition in her late 20s, and has undergone 3 surgeries associated with it. One was when a doctor punctured her colon when doing the first colonoscopy in the initial diagnosis process; she had to have her colon repaired. Two years later at the end of her pregnancy with SopeJr#2 her intestines closed down completely and she was hospitalized for 3 1/2 weeks trying to hold off contractions until SopeJr#2 could be born prematurely, but without need of incubation . . . when she got pregnant with #2 she weighed 119 pounds, and when she delivered #2 she weighed 113 pounds with the baby. 6 weeks after the delivery the docs performed a resection - removing the infected/closed portion of the intestines and then reconnecting what remained of them. The third surgery was years later, to remove scar tissue from the earlier surgeries.

    Other than those episodes she has led a highly active life, raising two boys to young men, getting a third college degree, earning a black belt in a form of karate, running daily at speeds and distances most people wouldn't dream about attempting, being a featured soloist in performances in front of audiences of several hundred people, being valued a member of several choruses, and holding down a full-time teaching career in a Title I school while accruing well over 100 unused sick days . . . not to mention putting up with the likes of me (76-1, you just think I'm a horse's ass . . . MrsSope has the stories to prove the fact of it . . . .) All of this was without need of any medication . . . . In short, she's been productive her entire life despite having Crohn's Disease. All that is aside from the fact that she is the love of my life . . . but I digress . . . .

    So last October she had her every-ten-years colonoscopy, and the pics taken of her intestines revealed that she has an opening the size of the ball of a ball point pen for all of her food to pass through. After some disappointing attempts to work with one gastroenterologist, we arranged for a visit with a highly respected gastroenterologist in mid-town Atlanta a couple of weeks ago. He'd look at her, look at the picture, look at her, inquire of the status of her symptoms (virtually none), then look at the picture . . . after a while it became clear that he couldn't believe she was functioning at all, much less functioning at a relatively high level . . . without any medications. It was pretty clear to us that his go-to move when a patient presents with her condition would be some form of surgery . . . but he wasn't sure since she appeared perfectly healthy, and acknowledged virtually no symptoms. So he sent us to see a colorectal surgeon in the same building . . . today . . .

    . . . two weeks ago we pulled into the Piedmont Hospital complex to visit the gastroenterologist after driving through intense Atlanta traffic, then we parked in the parking deck designated for the doc's building and went to his office together. No one was wearing a face mask.

    Today we drove down a half-empty I-75 at the end of the morning rush hour, arriving 45 minutes early. The parking deck for the doc's building was closed due to the corona virus . . . so we parked in the hospital parking deck . . . the doc's building's doors were locked due to corona virus concerns . . . we had to go to another building's entrance where access to the doc's building via an over-street walkway was available, and upon entering those doors we came to a table of medical professionals in surgical masks who were screening for those eligible to enter the building and those who weren't. MrsSope identified herself, her destination and her business, and they medical professionals gave her a name tag that sufficed as a hall pass. They sent me back to the car in the hospital parking deck . . . (Thanks Rock for the Playing for Change videos . . . they helped pass the time . . . .).

    The colorectal surgeon had the same reaction to MrsSope that the gastroenterologist had: "Have you seen the pictures?" was his first statement to MrsSope. He kept looking at the pics, then at her and marveled that she was functioning relatively normally . . .

    . . . but then the expected news came: there are 3 options, (a) do nothing until her intestines close completely and then do emergency surgery, (b) do a colonoscopy and add an intestines version of an angioplasty, using a balloon to open the closed portion and put her on some meds to help, or (c) do another resection and put her on some meds.

    The considerations in front of us are many, including whether to risk infection with the corona virus - or something else - by having surgery at all, how long not having surgery might last for her, her current state of health and the relative health she might have if she waits, whether to use a hospital bed for her surgery when it might be needed for a corona virus patient, whether to have it during this school year (while the school is online at best) or wait until summer, whether to retire now or try another year of teaching . . . the factors are many, the risks relatively clear but still a bit imponderable . . .

    . . . having surgery means a whole bunch of people will have to work during the corona virus outbreak. Not having surgery could lead to an intestinal blockage . . . managing these risks are just one couple's issues among millions of couples and individuals who have their own imponderables - medical, economic, social, family, cognitive, special needs and so on . . . .

    The good news for us is that we're among the lucky ones . . . we have good insurance, good doctors, good savings accounts and the potential for real retirement options if it comes to that. How to manage these risks isn't that tough comparatively, as imponderable as the risks seem to be . . .

    . . . how to manage these types of risks, the risks to the economic well-being of many people who live paycheck to paycheck, and the risks posed by one group going about their imponderables on another group going about their imponderables is the task before our government . . . for those on both sides of the political aisle. I think that's what Ranger and twenty were trying to get at. And I appreciate their efforts, no matter how cold and unempathetic they are . . . . ;)

    I guess the only thing I would ask for anyone reading this whole thing is to remember that most people are just trying to do the best they can with what they have on their plate.
     
    97 Sope Creek, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  18. Sope Creek

    Sope Creek Hall of Famer
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    I was desperate . . .

     
  19. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    Good luck to Mrs Sope, she deserves it.

    I was just thinking, and it ties in, another group involved in the risks are charities. They have to be hemorrhaging money. Now what they feds are doing on stimulus will help some on that. But it won't help enough nor all groups. Homeless charities for example, depending on the final language, the homeless may not get any of the money. There may be more homeless, and certainly not as many people are going to be donating.

    But really a lot of this amounts to a plea for people to stay expletive deleted home. It isn't hard, much easier than charging a machine gun nest in the Black Forest. If people stay home for two weeks, really, really, really stay home, the curve will bend down. Now it probably will come back and we may have to repeat (probably will have to repeat). But still, nothing will shorten the down times more than compliance.

    That should be the message from Trump, Cuomo, Fauci, Hannity, Cooper, me, you, anyone else. The better the compliance the faster we can return to semi normal even if only for a while. Hopefully longer, but we can't guarantee anything yet.
     
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  20. hoosboot

    hoosboot Hall of Famer
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    This is just stupid, Ranger. You're better than that.
     
    100 hoosboot, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
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  21. INRanger27

    INRanger27 All-American
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    I don’t mean that the way you’re taking it. I’m not making it a half left half right issue.

    I’m pretty sure that if I did a statical analysis of the qualitative posts re: China’s handling of the virus, I’d find about half the forum to be swallowing the China government story hook, line, and sinker. That’s all.
     
    101 INRanger27, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
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  22. CO. Hoosier

    CO. Hoosier Hall of Famer
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    True, resource allocation is present in all systems to varying degrees. But in the private pay/insurance system the patient does most of the allocation through choices about coverages and plans.

    In a fully public funded plan, the patient has no say-so. Resource allocation is done by others. As we have learned from world experience, that is being played out in Italy as I write this, age is usually the first criteria to be applied.
     
  23. TheOriginalHappyGoat

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    First of all, this is patently false. The issue in Italy - and the issue people are worried about here, especially in New York - is that resources have run out. If that happens in New York, doctors will be faced with the same tough choices Italian doctors are faced with. Having private plans doesn't magically make more ventilators appear.

    Second of all, you're still avoiding my original criticism of your post, which is that none of this is remotely related to the bullshit Death Panels your hero Sarah Palin invented out of thin air that Zeke was referencing. That was a really shitty post on your part.
     
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  24. meridian

    meridian Hall of Famer
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    Is he? Based on his latest post, I am not sure.:rolleyes:
     
  25. TheOriginalHappyGoat

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    Maybe it should be. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to accept as a given that there is some level of economic destruction, the prevention of which would justify letting X number of people die.
     
  26. zeke4ahs

    zeke4ahs Hall of Famer
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    Glenn Beck adds his name to the list of willing to sacrifice his life for the economy. After you, Glenn. He’d be pushing the women and children aside on the Titanic.
     
  27. sglowrider

    sglowrider Hall of Famer
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    ''A glorious death is more rewarding."


    Let's see how glorious they find clawing for breath with a dozen tubes hanging out of their body.
     
  28. TheOriginalHappyGoat

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    WTF.
     
  29. sglowrider

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    Right winged patriots!

    Another:

    Tweet!
     
  30. JamieDimonsBalls

    JamieDimonsBalls All-Big Ten
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  31. TheOriginalHappyGoat

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    This guy has been making the rounds a lot today. It's worth remembering that he's famous for arguing that there's never enough data to draw any conclusions (about virtually everything), but in this essay, seems to nevertheless draw conclusions. He won't commit to them firmly, but he clearly leans strongly in one direction.
     
  32. twenty02

    twenty02 Hall of Famer
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    I would have never have guessed you were in your 80s. Stay well.
     
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  33. JamieDimonsBalls

    JamieDimonsBalls All-Big Ten
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    Eran or Jay? Never heard of either, but that doesn't mean anything.
     
  34. TheOriginalHappyGoat

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    Sorry, neither. I saw Stanford MD, and figured they were referencing John Ioannidis. He's the one that's been making the rounds. Ignore my comment if he's not part of the article.

    (I don't have a WSJ sub.)
     
  35. sglowrider

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    Who should get coronavirus treatment first? Doctors face ethical dilemmas
    Facing a shortage of medical resources, doctors in the U.S. may have to make difficult moral decisions over how to allocate care.

    • he U.S. likely doesn't have enough ICU beds or respirators to effectively manage an influx of COVID-19 patients.
    • Italy has been dealing with a shortage of medical resources for weeks. Doctors there have been trying to prioritize care based on who's most likely to benefit.
    • Doctors in the U.S. will likely take a similar utilitarian approach, if resources become scarce.

    In Italy, doctors have been making these decisions for weeks. To guide the process, the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation, and Intensive Care has issued ethics recommendations for rationing limited resources, such as ICU beds and ventilators. These guidelines, authored by medical doctors, take a utilitarian approach that aims to "maximize the benefits for the largest number of people."

    The main goal is to maximize the number of saved lives. But it's complicated. For example, if a doctor has to choose between giving an ICU bed to a 45-year-old patient and an 85-year-old patient, both of whom have equal chances of recovering from COVID-19 if treated, who should get the bed?

    A doctor following Italy's guidelines would likely choose the 45-year-old, because the 85-year-old would likely have fewer years to live after recovering from the disease. This utilitarian decision may make sense, but that doesn't make it emotionally easy for doctors. In fact, this decision is actually the opposite of how most doctors would normally treat elderly patients, who are typically given priority in hospitals.

    The most sobering part of the Italian guidelines is perhaps the suggestion that it may be necessary to set an age limit for admission to ICUs. But is turning away elderly patients to allocate resources on "those who have a much greater probability of survival and life expectancy" a utilitarian decision that goes too far?

    In deontological ethics, the answer may be yes. Deontology is a normative ethical theory that says the morality of an action is based on whether the action itself is right or wrong, not on the consequences the action produces.

    "The deontologist might well start with a justice argument: each person is individually valuable and should have an equal chance of health care," Anders Sandberg, a philosopher at the Future of Humanity Institute at the Oxford University, told Quartz.

    But in a situation where medical resources are extremely scarce, and treating every patient equally is simply impossible, even deontologists would likely agree that it's best to prioritize patients who are most likely to benefit.

    So, how are American doctors thinking about the ethics of coronavirus treatment? A paper published Monday in The New England Journal of Medicine suggests that most would support a strategy similar to Italy's.

    "Priority for limited resources should aim both at saving the most lives and at maximizing improvements in individuals' post-treatment length of life," the paper states. "Saving more lives and more years of life is a consensus value across expert reports."


    A 6-step ethical framework for COVID-19 care

    The medical doctors who authored the paper offer six recommendations for how to ethically allocate resources in the coronavirus pandemic:

    1. Maximize benefits: Use a utilitarian framework to make tough decisions
    2. Prioritize health workers: "These workers should be given priority not because they are somehow more worthy, but because of their instrumental value: they are essential to pandemic response."
    3. Do not allocate on a first-come, first-served basis: For patients with similar prognoses, hospitals should use a random allocation system, like a lottery, to determine who gets treatment
    4. Be responsive to evidence: "Prioritization guidelines should differ by intervention and should respond to changing scientific evidence."
    5. Recognize research participation: "People who participate in research to prove the safety and effectiveness of vaccines and therapeutics should receive some priority for Covid-19 interventions."
    6. Apply the same principles to all Covid-19 and non–Covid-19 patients: "There should be no difference in allocating scarce resources between patients with Covid-19 and those with other medical conditions."


     
  36. JamieDimonsBalls

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    I’ll try to paste it tomorrow
     
  37. CO. Hoosier

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    You are missing the point. Of course COVID-19 will stress any system. Zeke said death panels were make believe. They aren't. They will always lurk in the bureacracy of publicly funded health care. That's by necessity and it goes with the territory. If you want to look at this absent COVID-19; dig up my post of months ago about the French hospitals.
     
  38. zeke4ahs

    zeke4ahs Hall of Famer
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    They care about future generations so much they still call Climate Change a hoax.
     
  39. Marvin the Martian

    Marvin the Martian Hall of Famer
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    It sounds like a whole lot of conservatives will be 100% pro choice if we can just prove it is good for the economy.
     
  40. TheOriginalHappyGoat

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    Yes, that was your argument. As I said, it was, and remains, shameful. You should be able to do better.
     

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