Russia-Ukraine war has begun
- Thread starter TheOriginalHappyGoat
- Start date
BTW, for anyone watching on TV, the most sober and intelligent analysis seems to be on BBCA and Newsnation (formerly WGN).
Also not a surprise: CNN reporting Russian troops entering Ukraine from Belarus.
Edit: Reports that Belarussian troops are taking part in the invasion.
Edit: Reports that Belarussian troops are taking part in the invasion.
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I decided not to hire an agent as to retain amateur-Democracy status.
NBC reporting engagements between Russian and Ukrainian troops, including firefights, north of Kharkiv.
Ukraine UN ambassador: “there is no purgatory for war criminals. They go straight to hell.”
Europe is so pathetic. Don’t ever remind me what those losers think of the US or anyone else again
China seems more supportive of Russia than some here thought:
Forgot the link
apnews.com
Xi’s government echoes Russian frustration with what they say is unfair American dominance of global affairs and Moscow’s rejection of the eastward expansion of NATO, the U.S.-European military alliance.
And from that article, China just signed a deal to buy Russian wheat.Forgot the link
China calls for talks on Ukraine, OKs Russian wheat imports
China has called for talks to resolve the Ukraine crisis and avoided criticizing President Vladimir Putin’s attack.
apnews.com
Okay so I'm reminded of Trump's words/promises of the US not being the policeman to the world. He wanted to establish more independence. Make America Great Again. Bring manufacturing back to the states. Make us energy independent even if there's greater environmental impacts. It resonated to many. So educate someone like me who knows NOTHING about foreign policy, energy, war. @larsIU @INRanger27 @76-1 @Marvin the Martian @Aloha Hoosier and anyone else.
Are we interested/committed (I don't know the best word) because of our NATO commitment; decency; furtherance of democracy. All of those things? Would we be better off actually leaving NATO and making a generational commitment to true independence? Could that be done in a generation?
I don't want this to devolve into a Trump vs Biden deal as that's not what this thread is about - but a question of policy and what our role should be in the world. What our duty looks like, and to whom we owe a duty. @DrHoops posted this below in a separate thread and I thought it was interesting, and in keeping with above. Why is any of the below our responsibility/concern. And if it's for the reasons above, should it be into perpetuity? At what cost?
1. Are you for or against a dictator who poisons political enemies and members of the press, illegally invades a country that is working (against Russian meddling) to establish a democracy in former Soviet territory?
2. Or are you pro-democracy for a country that is aligned with the West and is trying to establish democracy in a country that is “claimed” by Putin for the only reason that it used to be a member state of the Soviet Union?
Reader's digest version for those in the know to those in the dark like myself
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Who here denied that? Putin and Xi are buds. And allies. Putin attended Xi's Olympics and the two participated in a strategic summit while Putin was visiting.China seems more supportive of Russia than some here thought:
Xi’s government echoes Russian frustration with what they say is unfair American dominance of global affairs and Moscow’s rejection of the eastward expansion of NATO, the U.S.-European military alliance.And from that article, China just signed a deal to buy Russian wheat.
Forgot the link
China calls for talks on Ukraine, OKs Russian wheat imports
China has called for talks to resolve the Ukraine crisis and avoided criticizing President Vladimir Putin’s attack.
What Xi Jinping Gets by Supporting Putin on Ukraine
As the West condemns Putin's moves in Ukraine, President Xi is taking a different approach
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
No. Once the nuclear age became the way we can no longer be purely nationalistic and not participating at great scale in international politics and conflicts. We have to keep autocratic governments - especially nuclear ones - at bay. Unfortunately for our allies abroad that means often forcing conflicts to happen there. Simply being a strong ally of us and NATO means all states bordering a failed nuclear power like Russia are at risk. Same is true with Taiwan and China.
There is no turning back from this posture until the entire world decommissions all of its nukes.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
It’s more of an The Enemy of my Enemy thing.
That's the part that makes no sense to me.
The theory on world order since the mid to late 20th century is that the more intertwined we are economically, the more devastating war is for all involved and that it should prevent wars. Like, China and the US can be antagonistic to each other, but as long as we benefit from buying inexpensive goods and they benefit from selling them, it doesn't make sense to end up in a shooting war. Russia just doesn't have the capacity to replace us in China's business sphere.
One thing George HW Bush was great at was having relationships with world leaders to the point that when Iraq invaded Kuwait he had a global force ready to come down on them in a matter of months. Unfortunately, coming off the War on Terror, Great Recession, & now COVID, there is no stomach for war among the globe. To say nothing of the fact that Russia's military is more daunting than Hussein's Iraq.
I'm not sure if Ukraine is Czechoslovakia or Poland, but it's certainly the first of several dominoes to fall if this doesn't get nipped in the bud.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
China is big and corrupt enough that they can afford to be neutral and appear to play bot sides depending on who is watching. Their economy will soldier on no matter what. But yes, in the long run China needs us much more than they need Russia. This is also why Putin is desperate.
Also, I think worst case scenario this results in Belarus and Ukraine being annexed I doubt that happens but that’s the worst case IMO. They’ll be spread so thin at that point it’ll be like cornering a possum and for a nihilist like Putin that’s when he’s most dangerous.
Russia should be cut from SWIFT, but only with a strict deadline. Massive withdrawal in 12 hours or it is severed.
Ranger, completely agree.
However, once the nukes are off the table there still exists biological, chemical, and cyber warfare.
