One conservative’s argument for a Harris vote

[mcmurtry66]

You were not here in 2009, CO killed a LOT of photons railing on Tesla and the infrastructure bill. So you think that guy is seriously going to reform government? Or are we putting a heroin addict in charge of our drug policy?

Musk knows how to game agencies for his profit, he ain't giving that up. He is just going to insure he doesn't have competition.

I think that guy cut twitter’s staff by 80 percent. I think he has a mind like few others. He’s pulling astronauts out of space. Bringing internet to war torn areas. I think we need to enlist thinkers like that in gov if we want to do anything other than: well I’m with the cdc. We got Xxxxxxx amount allocated last year. We need that plus .5 percent added

Trump said it with WHO. Wait. You bungled Covid too. Why are we just automatically cutting you a check. Biden “and I’m writing a check today to WHO.” Of course. He’s 50 years of gov. Let’s get some people who think differently. If musk is game we’d be fools not to enlist him. You think our gov goose steppers are more innovative? It’s a shame the outsider we got is trump.

Harris and walz. My God it would be impossible to do worse. Perfect gov lifers

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Dumb

Lucy/Will, how about you start responding as your actual self rather than your fake selves?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I think that guy cut twitter’s staff by 80 percent. I think he has a mind like few others. He’s pulling astronauts out of space. Bringing internet to war torn areas. I think we need to enlist thinkers like that in gov if we want to do anything other than: well I’m with the cdc. We got Xxxxxxx amount allocated last year. We need that plus .5 percent added

Trump said it with WHO. Wait. You bungled Covid too. Why are we just automatically cutting you a check. Biden “and I’m writing a check today to WHO.” Of course. He’s 50 years of gov. Let’s get some people who think differently. If musk is game we’d be fools not to enlist him. You think our gov goose steppers are more innovative?

Harris and walz. My God it would be impossible to do worse. Perfect gov lifers

The government is a different animal. Look at the postal service, it has to deliver everywhere. It may not be profitable to deliver to Barrow, AK or deepest Montana. That doesn't matter, Fed Ex can say hell no, or charge $5000 to take an envelope there, but USPS cannot.

It is like education, a private school can look at a kid dragging down their overall test scores and toss them. A public school cannot.

Their roles are different. Trump and Musk, as CEO, can pretty much do anything they want. We, thank God, don't allow that from presidents.

The role of government workers is to follow the rules and regulations set down by law. Neither Trump or Musk have to deal with that in their professional careers. We have seen it with Trump's lawyer and accountant, if he wants the books cooked he expects his employees to do that.

Tesla himself was absolutely brilliant, but he did have a love affair with a pigeon. So you know, genius doesn't mean mentally stable.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The government is a different animal. Look at the postal service, it has to deliver everywhere. It may not be profitable to deliver to Barrow, AK or deepest Montana. That doesn't matter, Fed Ex can say hell no, or charge $5000 to take an envelope there, but USPS cannot.

It is like education, a private school can look at a kid dragging down their overall test scores and toss them. A public school cannot.

Their roles are different. Trump and Musk, as CEO, can pretty much do anything they want. We, thank God, don't allow that from presidents.

The role of government workers is to follow the rules and regulations set down by law. Neither Trump or Musk have to deal with that in their professional careers. We have seen it with Trump's lawyer and accountant, if he wants the books cooked he expects his employees to do that.

Tesla himself was absolutely brilliant, but he did have a love affair with a pigeon. So you know, genius doesn't mean mentally stable.

Agreed. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for innovation. As I said before I love the idea of an outsider. I’m disappointed it was trump

 

[sweetsilence]

One final time. I don't like Harris, but she's not mentally unstable and totally unfit for the office. It's not about Harris, it's about Trump. He's absolutely unfit for office. I've been saying it, his former cabinet members and staffers have been saying it as well. Basically, we're willing to live through four years of Harris as President than another day of Trump as President.

One final time.

Harris is the most unbelievably stupid person to be a choice for president.

I despise the curraent democrat party.

 

[BradStevens]

Yep, even Dream Teamers lose patiences sometimes. Unfortunately, we're not perfect. @VanPastorMan pray for us as we continue to try an educate Aloha.

Don't worry, snarl. I think Aloha is a man of God. And we all know whose side God is on . . .

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I think that guy cut twitter’s staff by 80 percent. I think he has a mind like few others. He’s pulling astronauts out of space. Bringing internet to war torn areas. I think we need to enlist thinkers like that in gov if we want to do anything other than: well I’m with the cdc. We got Xxxxxxx amount allocated last year. We need that plus .5 percent added

Trump said it with WHO. Wait. You bungled Covid too. Why are we just automatically cutting you a check. Biden “and I’m writing a check today to WHO.” Of course. He’s 50 years of gov. Let’s get some people who think differently. If musk is game we’d be fools not to enlist him. You think our gov goose steppers are more innovative? It’s a shame the outsider we got is trump.

Harris and walz. My God it would be impossible to do worse. Perfect gov lifers

No, he cut Twitter's value by 80%. He only cut the staff like 20%.

 

[BradStevens]

You were not here in 2009, CO killed a LOT of photons railing on Tesla and the infrastructure bill. So you think that guy is seriously going to reform government? Or are we putting a heroin addict in charge of our drug policy?

Musk knows how to game agencies for his profit, he ain't giving that up. He is just going to insure he doesn't have competition.

So this is the same type of sentiment I'm expressing re foreign wars, military spending, etc. I'm worried a lot of times these arguments for our military might keeping markets open is only a ploy for guys like Musk (in other sectors) to profit.

If we apply your justification for that here, I guess we'd have to argue that it's OK for Musk to do what you're accusing him of as long as it also improves in some way our overall standard of living. Is that right?

The reason I think my concern more important or serious, though, is that it involves more than just corruption or crony capitalism--it can lead to us getting involved in military conflicts, piss off regions rife with terrorists, and maybe risk a nuclear war.

 

[BradStevens]

Agreed. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for innovation. As I said before I love the idea of an outsider. I’m disappointed it was trump

Dan Carlin has spoken about this a lot. He, too, was pushing for an outsider pre-Trump, and now realizes he got what he wished for and it wasn't what he wanted.

 

[mcmurtry66]

No, he cut Twitter's value by 80%. He only cut the staff like 20%.

Elon Musk says he’s cut about 80% of Twitter’s staff | CNN Business

Elon Musk has laid off more than 6,000 people at Twitter since taking over the company, he told the BBC in a rare interview late Tuesday.

amp.cnn.com

Value who knows

 

[Marvin the Martian]

So this is the same type of sentiment I'm expressing re foreign wars, military spending, etc. I'm worried a lot of times these arguments for our military might keeping markets open is only a ploy for guys like Musk (in other sectors) to profit.

If we apply your justification for that here, I guess we'd have to argue that it's OK for Musk to do what you're accusing him of as long as it also improves in some way our overall standard of living. Is that right?

The reason I think my concern more important or serious, though, is that it involves more than just corruption or crony capitalism--it can lead to us getting involved in military conflicts, piss off regions rife with terrorists, and maybe risk a nuclear war.

And the opposite concern, the Hitler-appeasement?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Elon Musk says he’s cut about 80% of Twitter’s staff | CNN Business

Elon Musk has laid off more than 6,000 people at Twitter since taking over the company, he told the BBC in a rare interview late Tuesday.

amp.cnn.com

Value who knows

Fidelity knows.

Down 80%: Fidelity says X has plummeted in value since Elon Musk's takeover

According to investment giant Fidelity, estimates of its shares in X have become 80% less valuable since Elon Musk took over.

www.usatoday.com

 

[BradStevens]

And the opposite concern, the Hitler-appeasement?

I think that example is over used outside its context in many areas.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I’ve said it before. My main product we manufacture would cost 6-8x more if we did it in a factory in kc that does it. Brad has the same instincts I do and apparently trump does about our global military influence as well as manufacturing. I know enough to know that trump’s tariffs would indeed raise prices and I know the pain that would come from moving manufacturing back. But I wish I had an idea for how much pain. What it would look like. How long. Etc. And instead of buying navy ships we subsidized favtories for here. Some of the problem overseas is that companies have already had their capital infrastructure invested overseas. So instead of just saying make it here it’s having to build plants again. But what if some of that military budget was carved off for improvements here with restrictions. Restricted funds so it doesn’t go to ceo salaries etc. 85 percent of the products in Walmart are made in China.

What excites me so much about this election isn’t trump. It’s rfk Jr. Tackling censorship. Tackling what we eat. Consumer issues. And musk. Let him loook at these agencies. Let him innovate. Get rid of the bloat

We need a reboot. Gov inertia at a macro level

You're having a go at us, right? RFKJr and Musk are two of the scariest parts of Trump. These guys aren't being put up for Senate confirmation. They won't be subject to IG oversight. They will be unpaid senior advisors with broad portfolios and the ability to make recommendations directly to the President without being vetted by any experts.

 

[mcmurtry66]

You're having a go at us, right? RFKJr and Musk are two of the scariest parts of Trump. These guys aren't being put up for Senate confirmation. They won't be subject to IG oversight. They will be unpaid senior advisors with broad portfolios and the ability to make recommendations directly to the President without being vetted by any experts.

Not in the least. Rfk Jr is spot on re censorship concerns and I love his take on the food industry. Let him weigh in on Corp environmental shit. Musk is an innovator. Let them make Recs. There are safeguards. I’m tired of inertia and with what we’ve witnessed over the last five years with one agency f up after another I’m all for shaking stuff up. Bloat etc. scary is walz Harris spending and inertia

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I think that example is over used outside its context in many areas.

I agree, at the same point it is plausible. Dictators do tend to want more power.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Fidelity knows.

Down 80%: Fidelity says X has plummeted in value since Elon Musk's takeover

According to investment giant Fidelity, estimates of its shares in X have become 80% less valuable since Elon Musk took over.

www.usatoday.com

And space x and Tesla combined are worth a trillion. Twitter I suspect is anomalous given his motives with same. Again Harris and walz are far from our best and brightest.and congress. Good grief. I’d like to get more smart people involved. More ideas

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Not in the least. Rfk Jr is spot on re censorship concerns and I love his take on the food industry. Musk is an innovator. Let them make Recs. There are safeguards. I’m tired of inertia and with what we’ve witnessed over the last five years with one agency f up after another I’m all for shaking stuff up. Bloat etc. scary is walz Harris spending and inertia

Jesus H. Christ, man. RFK and Musk are lunatics. Let them do what they do, but you shouldn't want them anywhere near the levers of power.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Jesus H. Christ, man. RFK and Musk are lunatics. Let them do what they do, but you shouldn't want them anywhere near the levers of power.

Disruptors. I love it. Disrupt that gov industry. With the amount we spend let’s do a four year audit

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Disruptors. I love it. Disrupt that gov industry. With the amount we spend let’s do a four year audit

Disruption isn't always good. Herpes is also a disruptor.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Disruption isn't always good. Herpes is also a disruptor.

Rfk Jr wants to tackle ag, health, enviro, nutrition, etc. that would be so wonderful. The man is 70 and buff. Processed food. Sugars. Let him go. It would make a material difference to this country. Is anyone else talking about it? No. They’re talking about Hitler bullshit.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Rfk Jr wants to tackle ag, health, enviro, nutrition, etc. that would be so wonderful. The man is 70 and buff. Processed food. Sugars. Let him go. It would make a material difference to this country. Is anyone else talking about it? No. They’re talking about Hitler bullshit.

Actually, his Ag proposals are intriguing. They will dramatically raise the cost of food, though.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Actually, his Ag proposals are intriguing. They will dramatically raise the cost of food, though.

I know. That’s the rub

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I know. That’s the rub

The problem with getting people healthy is that revamping our agriculture system requires revamping so many other things. Food is more expensive and can't be shipped as far or stored as long, so people shop more often, and cook at home more. Which requires time, which ultimately only works if we have everyone in a nuclear family with one parent staying at home to do all this extra work. That means we need people to earn enough money to support a family without their spouse bringing in a second income.

I mean, it's more complicated than that, but in some ways, not really. It's actually accurate that we have allowed ourselves to transition into a world where every adult needs to work, and that means in order to feed their family, they need Door Dash.

 

[BradStevens]

I know. That’s the rub

That's where Bitcoin comes in. Duuuh.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The problem with getting people healthy is that revamping our agriculture system requires revamping so many other things. Food is more expensive and can't be shipped as far or stored as long, so people shop more often, and cook at home more. Which requires time, which ultimately only works if we have everyone in a nuclear family with one parent staying at home to do all this extra work. That means we need people to earn enough money to support a family without their spouse bringing in a second income.

I mean, it's more complicated than that, but in some ways, not really. It's actually accurate that we have allowed ourselves to transition into a world where every adult needs to work, and that means in order to feed their family, they need Door Dash.

For sure. and I get the preservatives etc but the sugar and all that is out of control. Check out his instagram. He’s a really neat dude

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

For sure. and I get the preservatives etc but the sugar and all that is out of control. Check out his instagram. He’s a really neat dude

We totally should have stricter regulations on added sugar and salt. And if he gets the chance to put that into practice, I fully expect you and all the other Republicans to denounce him as just another Michelle Obama.

 

[mcmurtry66]

We totally should have stricter regulations on added sugar and salt. And if he gets the chance to put that into practice, I fully expect you and all the other Republicans to denounce him as just another Michelle Obama.

I have children. A higher calling

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I have children. A higher calling

Just saying, she was vilified, including on this forum.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Just saying, she was vilified, including on this forum.

Yeah not me. I think our food is a mess and the fda is a joke

 

[IUCrazy2]

I honestly do not understand that you do not understand that Trump is supremely unqualified for the office. You and I have been pretty much lockstep on GOP politics for something like 25 years, Trump just doesn’t fit into what I/we previously would ever consider as a Republican candidate for President. Am I wrong, or has one of us changed? I very strongly don’t think I have.

He isn't. He has some things that could fall under a conservative platform but I think he is more of a Bill Clinton Democrat with a populist streak. You know who fits into that category even less? Kamala Harris.

The thing we have to be honest with ourselves about is that the people we picked to advance the conservatism that we more aligned with were failures. Crazed already mentioned it, but they opened the door to Donald Trump because they ignored their base for decades. Many in our party leadership and many of its thought leaders and donors were interested in two things: the military industrial complex and the maintenance of The American Empire and tax relief mainly aimed at their donor class. Those are the things that animated the leadership while they were holding together a coalition of people far more animated by things like social conservatism, the debt, the border, etc. They lost sight of their supporters and they lost them to a degree. I don't think you get those people back by joining with their political rivals to stab them in the back. On the contrary, I think that is how you ensure that our brand of conservatism gets a long exile to the wilderness because the people seen as leading that charge proved to be traitors the minute they weren't in charge of the team.

 

[Univee2]

He isn't. He has some things that could fall under a conservative platform but I think he is more of a Bill Clinton Democrat with a populist streak. You know who fits into that category even less? Kamala Harris.

The thing we have to be honest with ourselves about is that the people we picked to advance the conservatism that we more aligned with were failures. Crazed already mentioned it, but they opened the door to Donald Trump because they ignored their base for decades. Many in our party leadership and many of its thought leaders and donors were interested in two things: the military industrial complex and the maintenance of The American Empire and tax relief mainly aimed at their donor class. Those are the things that animated the leadership while they were holding together a coalition of people far more animated by things like social conservatism, the debt, the border, etc. They lost sight of their supporters and they lost them to a degree. I don't think you get those people back by joining with their political rivals to stab them in the back. On the contrary, I think that is how you ensure that our brand of conservatism gets a long exile to the wilderness because the people seen as leading that charge proved to be traitors the minute they weren't in charge of the team.

The CEOs go, not the accounting, IT and distribution groups.

 

[BradStevens]

He isn't. He has some things that could fall under a conservative platform but I think he is more of a Bill Clinton Democrat with a populist streak. You know who fits into that category even less? Kamala Harris.

The thing we have to be honest with ourselves about is that the people we picked to advance the conservatism that we more aligned with were failures. Crazed already mentioned it, but they opened the door to Donald Trump because they ignored their base for decades. Many in our party leadership and many of its thought leaders and donors were interested in two things: the military industrial complex and the maintenance of The American Empire and tax relief mainly aimed at their donor class. Those are the things that animated the leadership while they were holding together a coalition of people far more animated by things like social conservatism, the debt, the border, etc. They lost sight of their supporters and they lost them to a degree. I don't think you get those people back by joining with their political rivals to stab them in the back. On the contrary, I think that is how you ensure that our brand of conservatism gets a long exile to the wilderness because the people seen as leading that charge proved to be traitors the minute they weren't in charge of the team.

You can tell a similar story about the Democratic Party, by the way.

A cynic might argue the social issues each party runs on to get votes is window dressing. The true goal of both parties is to advance the donor class's financial interests, first and foremost, and everything else can be kicked down the road with "well, we can't do that now but we really want to, we have to wait for [X]."

I mean, if you allow government to be bought . . .

 

[IUCrazy2]

Are you kidding? Gridlock is ideal for conservatives. Nothing is more conservative than a government stuck in neutral. It's only reactionaries who want a GOP trifecta.

We are in the reactionary season IMO. There is quite a bit of where we stand that I don't really want to conserve at the moment...

 

[BradStevens]

We are in the reactionary season IMO. There is quite a bit of where we stand that I don't really want to conserve at the moment...

Yeah, where do you draw the line on that? If something is passed into law a few years ago, are you reactionary to use the democratic process to switch it back? Does it depend on how it was enacted (i.e. via a majority, or Executive Order, or barely 51-49 and in a partisan manner)?

 

[BadWakeboarder]

I think he has a couple of really bad premises.

First, that “moderate” Kamala is the real Kamala. That she’s not putting on an act today, she was putting on an act in 2019.

She’s a California politician - Bay Area. I believe her a lot more when she said she wanted to ban fracking, pay for prisoners to have sex changes, have government take over health insurance, etc. than I do when she disavows those things.

Second is that the far left is on its way out of the Democratic Party. Had it not been for some party maneuvering — especially in 2020 but also in 2016 — there’s a very good chance Bernie Sanders would’ve been the Dem nominee. Even when Biden became the nominee, Sanders was given a lot of influence over the party’s platform…by his own admission.

So I disagree that Frum made a rational argument. It rests upon these kinds of false premises.

There are plenty of good arguments for a conservative not to vote for Donald Trump. But there’s not a good argument for a conservative to vote for a Kamala Harris.

No sale.

Co/sign

 

[IUCrazy2]

The problem with getting people healthy is that revamping our agriculture system requires revamping so many other things. Food is more expensive and can't be shipped as far or stored as long, so people shop more often, and cook at home more. Which requires time, which ultimately only works if we have everyone in a nuclear family with one parent staying at home to do all this extra work. That means we need people to earn enough money to support a family without their spouse bringing in a second income.

I mean, it's more complicated than that, but in some ways, not really. It's actually accurate that we have allowed ourselves to transition into a world where every adult needs to work, and that means in order to feed their family, they need Door Dash.

This is an area where I lean more pragmatic. Europe has healthier and less expensive options than we do. Go look at why that is (based on some things I have watched a great deal of that appears to be because they don't add excessive amounts of sugar to things like their bread....)

Costs associated with these things should be offset by a reduction in health costs related to dietary issues.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Yeah, where do you draw the line on that? If something is passed into law a few years ago, are you reactionary to use the democratic process to switch it back? Does it depend on how it was enacted (i.e. via a majority, or Executive Order, or barely 51-49 and in a partisan manner)?

Well on some things I would draw the line back 30 years. Take the budget for instance. I would go back to the period where we were last balanced, adjust for inflation, and set that as my FY26 budget (FY25 is already going to be shot because of CRs).

Anybody in government saying they can't cut back in a whole host of areas is flat out lying to you. Doing so would require both parties to let go of some of their commonly held beliefs on government workers and funding though.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Well on some things I would draw the line back 30 years. Take the budget for instance. I would go back to the period where we were last balanced, adjust for inflation, and set that as my FY26 budget (FY25 is already going to be shot because of CRs).

Anybody in government saying they can't cut back in a whole host of areas is flat out lying to you. Doing so would require both parties to let go of some of their commonly held beliefs on government workers and funding though.

I don’t think there’s any reason to be hopeful that our lawmakers are going to do a course correction on this. And, if you think our fiscal imbalance has been bad to this point, check out the forecasts.

Maybe they’ll nibble at the edges. But no more than that.

I fully expect them to rely on the Fed to finance it through monetary expansion…which invariably comes at a cost to our standard of living, and hits hardest on people who have no choice but to use every dollar they get (and then some) on necessity consumption.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I don’t think there’s any reason to be hopeful that our lawmakers are going to do a course correction on this. And, if you think our fiscal imbalance has been bad to this point, check out the forecasts.

Maybe they’ll nibble at the edges. But no more than that.

I fully expect them to rely on the Fed to finance it through monetary expansion…which invariably comes at a cost to our standard of living, and hits hardest on people who have no choice but to use every dollar they get (and then some) on necessity consumption.

Oh my expectations are in line with yours, I have no illusions on how things are likely to go either way. Next to no one has the political willpower to get spending under control, even those who would actually like to see progress there.