No surprise, Biden's last effort to buy votes via student loan forgiveness shot down.

[Aloha Hoosier]

Biden’s student loan cancellation plan axed by court

(The Center Square) – A U.S. appeals court killed President Joe Biden’s SAVE plan to cancel hundreds of billions of dollars in student loan debt.

www.thecentersquare.com

This is what the judicial system is supposed to do when a President attempts to exceed his authority.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Biden’s student loan cancellation plan axed by court

(The Center Square) – A U.S. appeals court killed President Joe Biden’s SAVE plan to cancel hundreds of billions of dollars in student loan debt.

www.thecentersquare.com

This is what the judicial system is supposed to do when a President attempts to exceed his authority.

That digusting taxpayer funded vote grab needed to be aborted before it was born.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Biden’s student loan cancellation plan axed by court

(The Center Square) – A U.S. appeals court killed President Joe Biden’s SAVE plan to cancel hundreds of billions of dollars in student loan debt.

www.thecentersquare.com

This is what the judicial system is supposed to do when a President attempts to exceed his authority.

Well, good.

This would be a terrible idea even if Congress had authorized it.

 

[Ohio Guy]

I never understood the logic behind this anyway (other than it being a blatant vote grab). Glad it's being put behind us.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

One other thing I’d say on this is that I wouldn’t be totally opposed to modifying bankruptcy laws to allow at least some discharge of student debt…maybe accumulated interest up to a certain amount or something.

But whatever Congress does do about this, it would be irresponsible for them to do it without also taking steps to address the cost of higher education.

Normally, I’d say they should just stay out of it. But considering that they’re the primary source of funding, they’re integral to prices getting so high.

They need to establish some sensible guidelines for the loans they underwrite.

 

[UncleMark]

One other thing I’d say on this is that I wouldn’t be totally opposed to modifying bankruptcy laws to allow at least some discharge of student debt…maybe accumulated interest up to a certain amount or something.
[...]
They need to establish some sensible guidelines for the loans they underwrite.

Agreed on the bankruptcy consideration. I'd also hold the schools responsible for some of the writeoff. First 10% or whatever. Maybe they would think twice about loading kids up with $80K in debt for a Comparative Lit degree.

Also, I'd limit the loan amounts to the cost of tuition and dorm room & board for the states' flagship school. If you're from Kokomo and want to go to Notre Dame and live off campus, the feds will loan you the amount it would cost to go to IU and live in Read Hall. Period.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Agreed on the bankruptcy consideration. I'd also hold the schools responsible for some of the writeoff. First 10% or whatever. Maybe they would think twice about loading kids up with $80K in debt for a Comparative Lit degree.

Also, I'd limit the loan amounts to the cost of tuition and dorm room & board for the states' flagship school. If you're from Kokomo and want to go to Notre Dame and live off campus, the feds will loan you the amount it would cost to go to IU and live in Read Hall. Period.

Both good ideas, Unc.

This is the kind of thinking that needs to happen. What we have right now is unsustainable and almost certain to just lead to more and more bad debt piling up.

 

[Mark Milton]

One other thing I’d say on this is that I wouldn’t be totally opposed to modifying bankruptcy laws to allow at least some discharge of student debt…maybe accumulated interest up to a certain amount or something.

But whatever Congress does do about this, it would be irresponsible for them to do it without also taking steps to address the cost of higher education.

Normally, I’d say they should just stay out of it. But considering that they’re the primary source of funding, they’re integral to prices getting so high.

They need to establish some sensible guidelines for the loans they underwrite.

There are opportunities to do so. I'm not a bankruptcy lawyer, guy or even interested in it, but a buddy of mine had a lot of school loans--something like 85-90k. He decided that he didn't want to be a doctor, and was a stay at home dad. He and his wife (who is blind), filed for bankruptcy and he was able to get a sizeable chunk of his loans wiped out by filing an adversary proceeding and had to show "undue hardship". Whatever that means in bankruptcy

 

[mcmurtry66]

There are opportunities to do so. I'm not a bankruptcy lawyer, guy or even interested in it, but a buddy of mine had a lot of school loans--something like 85-90k. He decided that he didn't want to be a doctor, and was a stay at home dad. He and his wife (who is blind), filed for bankruptcy and he was able to get a sizeable chunk of his loans wiped out by filing an adversary proceeding and had to show "undue hardship". Whatever that means in bankruptcy

I think that is the exception MM

but agreed student loans under certain conditions should be dischargeable pr crammed down whether in 7/13

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Also, I'd limit the loan amounts to the cost of tuition and dorm room & board for the states' flagship school. If you're from Kokomo and want to go to Notre Dame and live off campus, the feds will loan you the amount it would cost to go to IU and live in Read Hall. Period.

Some thought on this particular idea....

I think that loan maximums need to bear some kind of quantifiable relationship to the expected income of the degree being pursued. Clearly, unlike a mortgage or a car loan, any method of estimating this will be very imperfect. Incomes are going to vary geographically, for instance. Many people won't stay in the workforce long as life situations change. And on and on. The variables are many.

But it seems like something coupling these two values is preferable to nothing.

That being said, it's (probably?) the case that a degree from Notre Dame is worth more, on average, than a comparable degree from IUB or Purdue. Or compare Harvard or MIT to UMass Amherst. But it would also likely be true that a degree from ND would be worth more than a comparable degree from Valpo or Hanover.

And, of course, there would also be variance in expected income between, say, a Bachelors in Elementary Ed from Purdue and one in Chemical Engineering.

It's never made any sense to me, in a strictly financial sense, that all degrees at a university carry the same tuition.

 

[UncleMark]

Some thought on this particular idea....

I think that loan maximums need to bear some kind of quantifiable relationship to the expected income of the degree being pursued. Clearly, unlike a mortgage or a car loan, any method of estimating this will be very imperfect. Incomes are going to vary geographically, for instance. Many people won't stay in the workforce long as life situations change. And on and on. The variables are many.

But it seems like something coupling these two values is preferable to nothing.

That being said, it's (probably?) the case that a degree from Notre Dame is worth more, on average, than a comparable degree from IUB or Purdue. Or compare Harvard or MIT to UMass Amherst. But it would also likely be true that a degree from ND would be worth more than a comparable degree from Valpo or Hanover.

And, of course, there would also be variance in expected income between, say, a Bachelors in Elementary Ed from Purdue and one in Chemical Engineering.

It's never made any sense to me, in a strictly financial sense, that all degrees at a university carry the same tuition.

My plan/proposal avoids those kinds of determinations. Straight up puts a cap on what the feds will loan or stand behind. And while I didn't say so, it precludes out of state students from getting their out of state tuition fully paid for. IU may charge some NYC kid triple to go to Jacobs, but the feds will only back in state prices.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

My plan/proposal avoids those kinds of determinations.

I know, that's why I threw it in there.

In virtually any other scenario when a lender makes a loan, there is some kind of diligence in determining the wherewithal of the borrower to pay it back -- and a big part of that is examining not just their income but also the value of whatever it is being financed.

If you went to the SBA and asked for $1mm to open a hot dog stand, I'm guessing they'd politely tell you that you'll have to settle for less than that. And that's because they would have some idea how much income one can expect a hot dog stand to generate.

 

[UncleMark]

I know, that's why I threw it in there.

In virtually any other scenario when a lender makes a loan, there is some kind of diligence in determining the wherewithal of the borrower to pay it back -- and a big part of that is examining not just their income but also the value of whatever it is being financed.

If you went to the SBA and asked for $1mm to open a hot dog stand, I'm guessing they'd politely tell you that you'll have to settle for less than that. And that's because they would have some idea how much income one can expect a hot dog stand to generate.

I get your point, but I'm going to show my shitlib side here and say that would "discriminate" against someone pursuing a liberal arts degree. I'm old enough to remember when a History BA or an Econ BA or even an English BA had value. If we view Business or Computer Science or Biology degrees as the only worthwhile credentials, then the academy is nothing more than a glorified trade school.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I get your point, but I'm going to show my shitlib side here and say that would "discriminate" against someone pursuing a liberal arts degree. I'm old enough to remember when a History BA or an Econ BA or even an English BA had value. If we view Business or Computer Science or Biology degrees as the only worthwhile credentials, then the academy is nothing more than a glorified trade school.

You're right, it would discriminate against those majors. Do you know why? Because the job market discriminates against them.

If we're serious about getting this higher education funding issue under control, we'd be wise to consider things like this. That's the thing about math: it isn't up for a vote.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I get your point, but I'm going to show my shitlib side here and say that would "discriminate" against someone pursuing a liberal arts degree. I'm old enough to remember when a History BA or an Econ BA or even an English BA had value. If we view Business or Computer Science or Biology degrees as the only worthwhile credentials, then the academy is nothing more than a glorified trade school.

I should also note, that I would expect that the tuition rates for these lower value degrees would also come down. At least that’s my thinking. They should if they are going to reflect economic reality.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I get your point, but I'm going to show my shitlib side here and say that would "discriminate" against someone pursuing a liberal arts degree. I'm old enough to remember when a History BA or an Econ BA or even an English BA had value. If we view Business or Computer Science or Biology degrees as the only worthwhile credentials, then the academy is nothing more than a glorified trade school.

The market eliminated education for your own edification unless you go the juco commuter college path

 

[BradStevens]

I should also note, that I would expect that the tuition rates for these lower value degrees would also come down. At least that’s my thinking. They should if they are going to reflect economic reality.

We probably can't quantify the net effect of liberal arts education on the health of the nation.

But I'd suggest the failure of people in corporations, govt., etc. to understand the liberal tradition and benefits of classical liberalism is why we have a lot of the problems we do that you and I, in particular, do not like. More college students should be studying philosophy, history, and the general history of ideas that one is exposed to in the liberal arts curriculum, not fewer.

 

[NPT]

The market eliminated education for your own edification unless you go the juco commuter college path

Yeah I never did understand why a person would go get a degree that is essentially worthless. That's fine if they have the money to pay for it but don't expect tax payers to pick up the tab if they don't. I think kids complete high school and 90 percent of them know essentially nothing about financial stuff so they are an easy target.