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Do we need a 3rd party to end the forever wars?

From my driving through South Dakota, they already have a Wall there. It is advertised like every other mile.
America needs more border wall/border wall appropriations, not less. We need it to be more difficult for illegal drugs, weapons & contraband to illegally enter America, & more difficult for terrorists to enter here as well.

If America let in everyone who wants to come here, we'd be over run/over populated in a few short years. Our resources couldn't handle those numbers. Too few jobs, gov. benefits & adequate living conditions would quickly turn ugly for all.

Once we get these people/everyone (who wants to come here) in here, no country would then take them off our hands/we're stuck with them, forever, hell or high water.
 
Over the past 20 years, 212,000 people have died in the Afghan conflict, representing three-thousandths of one percent of the human population.

In 1219, after his ambassador was killed by an official in the Khwarazmian Empire in the same part of the world, Genghis Khan went on a rampage of destruction that killed 15 million people in western Afghanistan and the surrounding regions, representing nearly 4% of the entire global population.

We have it lucky.
Yes, & a 'legitimate' reason to remove ourselves & allies from Afghanistan/'The land that time forgot', would be if we were killing fewer of our enemy, than they were killing of us. Since that isn't the case, & $$$ seems to be the main reason we left, same ol', same ol' problem. 'We shall return!'



'The root of all evil'

:O
 
Would rather have no party than 3. If we continue to digest our news like we do, and back ourselves into our corners with like minded people (like we do), 3 parties just means we will be divided 3 ways.
Here is a wild idea, we should vote for people with experience and choose based on the content of their character.
The more parties, the better/the more choices/the more democratic. Someone will eventually get it right/correct. The Libertarian Party sucks, just like the other two main parties. I propose a Moderate Party, where the main platform is based on honesty, both before & after elections.
 
This brings up an interesting question - now that the Afghanistan war is coming off the defense industry's ledger, what will that be replaced with? I mean, those companies would seem to be positioned to lose a lot of money and I'm guessing there are people who aren't happy about that.
Those companies don't start wars. Would you have us fighting with sticks & stones? The better mouse trap/weapons usually win wars/conflicts.

'Sticks & stones may break my bones, ...' :)
 
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When we first got involved in Afghanistan, Bush was well aware of the potential problems in getting immersed in a quagmire....thus the initial emphasis on Special Ops and the Northern Alliance.

But then, the Dems and some Pubs began insisting on nation building. I well remember the line "If you break it, you own it", and the talk about us not being able to leave, creating political and military chaos.

So we started building roads and schools and digging wells, with the thought of bringing the country into the 21st century. The defense contractors were happy about equipping and training the Afghan army. Bush and Cheney were ok with it....$ was never an object with them. And they were on to Iraq anyway. The Libs were happy because girls were going to school. So everybody got something out of the arrangement except the tax payers and the military members getting shot, blown up at worst, or doing multiple deployments at best.
Militaries (usually) don't start wars, politicians do. Militaries just try to win the wars, as politicians ask/expect/finance them to do.
 
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Pay down the debt . . . but the GOP will start stomping around with a tax cut mantra like it's a foregone conclusion . . . .
You honestly believe the democrats would pay down debt with additional revenues? More tax dollars = more government give away programs.

None of this has any hope of changing without term limits. Without the prospects of life long jobs in DC maybe there would be enough democrats and republicans to do the right things.
 
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You honestly believe the democrats would pay down debt with additional revenues? More tax dollars = more government give away programs.

None of this has any hope of changing without term limits. Without the prospects of life long jobs in DC maybe there would be enough democrats and republicans to do the right things.
I was originally opposed to term limits, until about 20 years ago. Now, I believe we need them more than ever, & always will going forward. Probably never happen though. Neither party really wants them, though they (sometimes) publicly say otherwise.
 
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Those companies don't start wars. Would you have us fighting with sticks & stones? The better mouse trap/weapons usually win wars/conflicts.

'Sticks & stones may break my bones, ...' :)
I'd argue that the US military has the best weapons by far of any army on the planet and it isn't close. I wouldn't say we won in Afghanistan.

And if you don't think the defense contractors don't spend a ton on money on lobbyists to advocate for a need for the government to spend money on their product, then I don't know what to tell you. It's also not hard to draw a direct line to certain defense companies with no-bid contracts and those who directly made the decisions to go to war.

It's not like these companies just fell into an opportunity to make billions.
 
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You honestly believe the democrats would pay down debt with additional revenues? More tax dollars = more government give away programs.

None of this has any hope of changing without term limits. Without the prospects of life long jobs in DC maybe there would be enough democrats and republicans to do the right things.
Good lord, you're a stiff-necked one.

Well, we know I'm right about the Republicans' approach . . . they'll tax cut the federal government into oblivion. And you didn't deny it. Must be right . . . .

Democrats are the only hope left, I guess. Maybe not much hope, but then the GOP offers NONE.
 
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You must admit, before the Covid-19 pandemic hit us, our economy was pretty good.
Deficit spending can do that . . .

. . . but if we were on such good financial footing, why would we borrow more to cut taxes?

The Trump economy was a fraud . . . as was Ronald Reagan's.
 
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From Matt Taibi:

To Stop War, America Needs a Third Party

The American political system has been captured by the military, and only an independent political power can prevent the next Afghanistan​

Matt TaibbiAug 29

On the Sunday morning shows today, prestige media did its best to soften the blow of Afghanistan. A key theme: we didn’t lose to the Taliban, but beat ourselves. It was “self-defeat,” somehow not-disgraced former National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster told NBC, while Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson cautiously described the disaster of Afghanistan as “a war we did not win.” Chuck Todd on Meet the Press liked that. “I agree,” he said, smiling a little and noting, “I don’t know if you can say we lost, but we didn’t win.”
Twitter avatar for @MeetThePressMeet the Press @MeetThePress
WATCH: "This is what withdrawal from a war that we did not win looks like," says @Eugene_Robinson on #MTP "It's messy. It's awful. ... It's a tragic thing for a lot of Afghans ... certainly for the 13 service members who lost their lives and their families." Image
August 29th 2021
9 Retweets23 Likes

Just a few weeks in, the gruesome story of Afghanistan’s collapse is already being sanitized, cleaved into neat storylines for blue and red audiences who as usual are being herded into safe psychological spaces, where they can happily non-consider what happened across the last 20 years. The images they see on TV aren’t their party’s fault, it’s those other jerks to blame, etc.
Republicans are blissful over Joe Biden’s approval rating nosedive and are thrilled to blame the whole debacle on our Sundowner-in-Chief. Biden, they say, is prioritizing Afghan lives over Americans in his withdrawal plans, and continues to push his $3.5 trillion “socialist wish list” over national security, and should have used Mike Pompeo’s “conditions-based” withdrawal plan instead of the ass-over-elbow deal they used in reality. Multiple Republicans are aping Trump-era Democrats by demanding the president’s resignation, with one, Missouri Senator Vicky Hartzler, going so far as to demand closure of the U.S.-Mexican border to “protect American lives” from an alleged heightened terrorist threat.
Democrats, not completely without self-reflection in the first days of this crisis, are already back focused on counter-blame narratives. Blue-state audiences are being reminded Donald Trump negotiated the “premature” May 1st pullout date, and that when critics blasted that deal as “weak and dangerous,” House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy advised his caucus not to speak against it. McCarthy today is leading the charge in criticizing Biden’s withdrawal, which is “so freaking hypocritical,” according to Senate-to-MSNBC pipeline passenger Claire McCaskill. Moreover, they say, House Democrat Jason Crow offered an amendment for his own “conditions-based” withdrawal plan, and that was shot down by the likes of Matt Gaetz, who last year said, “I don’t think there’s ever a bad day to end the war in Afghanistan.”
It’s all noise, designed to distract from the fact that Afghanistan is as pure a bipartisan fiasco as we’ve had in recent times. Both parties were directly and repeatedly complicit in prolonging the catastrophe. Republicans and Democrats were virtually unanimous in approving the initial use-of-force, both voted over and over to fund the war to insane levels, and both Democratic and Republican presidents spent years covering up evidence of massive contracting corruption, accounting failure (as in, failure to do any accounting), war crimes, and other problems.
Afghanistan was the ultimate symbol of the two-party consensus, the “good war” as Barack Obama deemed it, and defense spending in general remained so sacrosanct across the last twenty years that the monster, $160 billion defense spending hikes of 2017-2018 were virtually the only policy initiative of Donald Trump’s that went unopposed by a Democratic leadership. “We fully support President Trump’s Defense Department’s request,” was Chuck Schumer’s formulation in 2018, choosing then to reward the Pentagon for turning Mesopotamia into a Mad Max set and spending two trillion dollars on the by-then-inevitable fall of Kabul.
Worse, as the performance of the legacy media in the last few weeks shows, the national commentariat is also fully occupied by the military establishment. Staffed from top to bottom by spooks and hawks, the corporate press’s focus from the pre-Iraq firing of Phil Donahue through the past few weeks of guest star appearances on CNN, Fox, and MSNBC by the likes of Leon Panetta, John Bolton, Karl Rove, David Petraeus and Marc Thiessen — all people with direct involvement in the Afghan mess — has been the same. It keeps the public distracted with inane tactical issues or fleeting partisan controversies, leaving the larger problem of a continually expanding Fortress America unexamined.
We need new institutions free of Pentagon influence, probably starting with a new political party. It doesn’t even matter so much what such a party would stand for, ideologically, so long as it adheres to one basic principle: don’t accept contractor money. It seems like the only possible solution to the disease that gave us Afghanistan. Our two parties, just like our academic research institutions, news networks, and even Hollywood’s movie studios, have become de facto Pentagon subsidiaries. They’re all hopelessly corrupted by the financial powers Dwight Eisenhower warned about, in his famous speech prophesying “the disastrous rise of misplaced power” from America’s armaments sector.

A few stray pundits in the last two weeks have pointed out the obvious fact that despite awesome financial and technological advantages, the United States has now “lost” virtually every war it has entered since World War II (with the possible exception of the first Gulf War, though the cleanness even of that victory is very debatable). Dominic Tierney, the author of The Right Way To Lose A War: America in the Age of Unwinnable Conflicts, told Timemagazine a big reason for this was that “the nature of war itself” has changed since 1945:

I’d agree, with a twist: under the influence of captured parties and the military’s ubiquitous and extravagantly funded public relations apparatus, America has itself redefined the “nature of war.” Armed conflict has gone from being an occasional unpleasant political necessity to the core product line of the American corporation. Wars are what we make, and like blue jeans or Louisville Sluggers, we build them to last, with Afghanistan the prime example. That should be the issue dominating Meet the Press, not whether we lost or just “didn’t win,” or which party’s leaders decided to pull out first, and why.
Just as we’re always designing new rifles and tanks and jet fighters, we’ve become adept at manufacturing fresh intellectual justifications for deploying troops, churning out everything from “humanitarian war” to “benevolent hegemony” to “regime change” to “nation-building” to Eisenhower’s own “domino theory.” Where once we fought for literal survival against other nations, and knew who’d won when one side surrendered, we’re now sending our kids to die (and kill) in open-ended engagements where victory is either impossible or indefinable, and the main concrete “results” are masses of foreign deaths and the gigantic houses built by defense executives in places like Loudon and Fairfax Counties in northern Virginia.
This is why, whenever we get a rare look at the real thinking underlying our modern conflicts, whether via the Pentagon or Afghanistan Papers or the Wikileaks release of diplomatic cables, we keep seeing the same story: senior American military and intelligence officials struggling to come up with “metrics for success,” in some cases years after they’d already invaded and occupied places like Vietnam and Afghanistan.
It shouldn’t need to be said, but if you have to invent a “metric for success” in war that goes beyond defeating an enemy, you’re not really at war, you’re doing something else.
I would join a 'Moderate Party'. Not too far right, not too far left, close to the middle/sanity on most issues.

Cheney/Romney 2024 'Make Moderates Acceptable Again' 'Everything In Moderation'
 
This brings up an interesting question - now that the Afghanistan war is coming off the defense industry's ledger, what will that be replaced with? I mean, those companies would seem to be positioned to lose a lot of money and I'm guessing there are people who aren't happy about that.
This was prescient.
Note the reference to $2 Trillion squandered.
 
America needs more border wall/border wall appropriations, not less. We need it to be more difficult for illegal drugs, weapons & contraband to illegally enter America, & more difficult for terrorists to enter here as well.

If America let in everyone who wants to come here, we'd be over run/over populated in a few short years. Our resources couldn't handle those numbers. Too few jobs, gov. benefits & adequate living conditions would quickly turn ugly for all.

Once we get these people/everyone (who wants to come here) in here, no country would then take them off our hands/we're stuck with them, forever, hell or high water.

what's worse, is we're stuck with you, Republicans, and big money owned Dems.

we certainly haven't seen other countries wanting to take that group of losers off our hands, and you guys cost us 10 times what immigrants do, are far more responsible for the harmful drug problem as immigrants, and responsible for the US's healthcare affordability crisis, both the 1929 and 2008 economic meltdowns, the 20 yr war with Iraq and Afganistan that we came out of far worse off than we entered, slavery, the US Civil War, and the last 40 plus yrs of the working class's relative loss in revenue.
 
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I would join a 'Moderate Party'. Not too far right, not too far left, close to the middle/sanity on most issues.

Cheney/Romney 2024 'Make Moderates Acceptable Again' 'Everything In Moderation'

the problem is anyone calling themself the left, right, or middle, Pub or Dem, rather than just taking every issue on it's own merits, explaining their stance on said issue and why, and doing so without attaching a defining tag like "left", "right", or "the middle" to that stance.
 
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