People in higher end apartments probably have ownership in something else: car, job, etc. By no means does apathy apply to everyone in poverty nor is it something that affluent communities are immune to, but I think the tipping point is passed in communities that are marked by high poverty. A bunch of them have given up and those that have not given up do not have the resources to overcome those that have. If 4 out of 10 people literally give zero craps about where they live and what it looks like, then the area is probably going to look like crap.
No immigrants from "sh1thole countries"
- Thread starter UncleMark
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People in higher end apartments probably have ownership in something else: car, job, etc. By no means does apathy apply to everyone in poverty nor is it something that affluent communities are immune to, but I think the tipping point is passed in communities that are marked by high poverty. A bunch of them have given up and those that have not given up do not have the resources to overcome those that have. If 4 out of 10 people literally give zero craps about where they live and what it looks like, then the area is probably going to look like crap.
Have a nice day my ass! Nobody is “infatuated” with skin color except those who don’t have the intellect to talk about anything but. There is a lot to this discussion besides skin color, but that is where the likes of you and s few others here reside cuz skin color is easy and emotional. All you need to do to satisfy your mind is hint that everybody who see things differently than you are racist or “infatuated” with skin color. That’s not much of a mind.
Then why did you write this..
"I generalized that most of the wokd’s shitholes are nonwhite. That is a true statement, isn’t it? If it isn’t true then why would people accuse Trump of racism for calling certain places shitholes?"
You brought race into this. Not me.
Why is it relevant that most of the world's shitholes are non-white? Why does that matter? Who cares what their skin color is? How did their skin color impact the place?
Furthermore, I pointed out that most people are non-white. Do you know for certain that proportionally more shitholes are non-white? How do you even define "white"? How do you define shithole?
Mindset is both symptomatic and causal depending on the individual. I tried to make that point in my original post in that the apathy can either be a learned behavior or one that is just kind of ingrained.
The Jewish ghettos you mentioned were forced upon the people living there. They had everything taken from them and were pushed into the ghettos to basically die. Some of them became apathetic to their fate and others (like some in the Warsaw ghetto) found it within themselves to fight their way out despite the odds stacked against them.
That last point is the important point. In our society you actually have an opportunity to fight your way out of poverty and there is actual government help available to give them a hand up (instead of the iron fist holding them down like in your example.)
Nope, when it comes to racism I don't give a sh..... about nuance. Wonder how many here laugh along at a racist joke at a cocktail party and how many call them on it. I'm beginning to get a pretty good idea.
Obviously. I don't think that is a bragging point. Racism usually is about emotions. Emotional arguments are easy arguments.
Actually I wrote that in response to one point made in another post. It was a rabbit hole response confined to that context.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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Those who triumph against extraordinary odds are often extraordinary...see Alexander Hamilton, Haitian immigrant and founding father. But, while some people beat the odds most people don't...which is why we call them odds. That is a good reason why people try to escape the trap of places where the odds are stacked against them...it is a good reason why they do much better in places where the odds are better...it is a good reason why those who escape long odds are likely to do even better than the average person. They are all good reasons why Trump's statement is such a pile of excrement. Typically places that stack the odds against some people do so to stack the odds in favor of others. Donald Trump is a really great example of the flipside. Those who triumph when the odds are stacked overwhelmingly in their favor turn out to be considerably worse on average: more incompetent and more corrupt when they encounter a situation in which the odds are no-longer stacked.
Racism is racism. It has zero to do with emotions. Of course you don't think it's a bragging point. I do.
Without going down the Trump rabbit hole, I think apathetic, ordinary, and extraordinary exist in all socioeconomic levels. I think the mixes of those types of people are different in different social strata, but they do exist in each level.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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Many people in his own party think it's a worthy battle to fight because the sentiment and thought process behind the comments are idiotic. This isn't some trivial item like whether or not he claims to have gotten an MBA from Wharton. It's a pretty substantive policy issue that the President has a fundamentally awful perspective on.
The catch is this, why would one refuse all entry from a shithole unless one think the people coming in are the same? If I were to say we should allow zero Venutians in, am I not making a value judgement on Venutians as individuals?
This is fair and accurate. I personally believe Trump is racist (at least to a significant degree). Not because of this specific commentary, but because of his entire public history going back decades. And also the general tenor of his campaign.
I think your position is this:
1. some countries are bad places to live--calling them shitholes is rude but the basic point is true
2. implying that the people who emigrate from such places are somehow inferior is bigoted and wrong
3. dems shouldn't call people racists because it alienates them
I don't disagree with any of that. What I thought you were arguing was that Trump's statement "why do allow immigration from shitholes" was not bigoted and wrong.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/botswana-trump-shithole-countries-2018-1
Botswana wants clarification.
Botswana wants clarification.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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I definitely was not implying the latter. Yes you’ve captured my points but to clarify #3, if behaviors or statements are demonstrably racist, they should be called out as such. I don’t think what the moron said was demonstrably racist. Stupid and ignorant of why people want to emigrate, yes.
I would expand on that to add that it's dimwitted to say that immigration from Norway is across-the-board more desirable.
It's better to engage people than call them racist. I know some Trump supporters who have xenophobic/bigoted views who think they're not racists who think we should shut off immigration to basically everywhere except predominantly white countries since "some of those people are going to be bad guys" or "our American way of life is going to be destroyed by these different cultures".
I would say that an immigrant from a place where the odds were stacked against them is more likely to be extraordinary than average. The more the odds were stacked against them the more likely they are to be extraordinary.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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The thing that annoys me is that the comment completely misstates the real substantive issue and it also makes things harder to accomplish.
There are shithole countries. Most people wanting to come to the U.S. are going to be coming from those shithole countries because they are seeking a better life. The substantive issue is on the skill level of the people we are bringing in. My biggest problem with our immigration policy (or lack thereof) is not people coming from (shithole) African countries, it is those who walk across our southern border.
We are in a position, because an ocean is between us, to better control the flow of who enters the country from Africa. I think it is because of this control that you see a higher educated immigrant (typically) coming from Africa than you do those coming from Mexico. To be crass, I want high quality immigrants. Sure, we should still be willing to take in some number of the poor huddled masses but we must understand that when that poem was written, we were a different country.
Trump has basically sunk the argument from those of us who could care less about what color you are or where you came from, as long as you are bringing something to the table. I want our immigration policy to focus on getting the best and brightest here from those shithole countries.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
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This is inherently the problem with having an unfit president. He sabotages his own platforms because he doesn’t understand the cause/effect relationship of his big mouth and ignorance of politics.
When people who voted for Trump talk about how they’re “getting what they wanted”, and they mean that past simply Gorsuch, they’re talking themselves into it. This man is a complete mockery of the office and is shooting the GOP’s dominance right in the face.
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It is the ability of people to talk themselves into liking life in a shithole that makes it so difficult to get out of them. Trump's incompetence and mendacity turns us into a crappier country...Trump's followers then persuade themselves they like it better that way.
No disagreement from me there.
This whole subtopic stemmed from CoH's wondering why poverty areas tend to be so dirty.
I'm with you. We Democrats shouldn't play the race card too easily because it becomes weak sauce and pisses people off when they really believe they're not racist. Calling someone a racist should be only when it's a no doubt play otherwise it hurts Democrats politically. Also I've said before that liberal white Democrats that are more sensitive to racism than I am aren't impressing me at all. I mean it and it should be emphasized that many of us don't like it. I know what it's like to be black so if you're white don't tell me you know what it's like or what should offend me as if you've developed this great sensitivity as a liberal white person. Empathy is OK but it's very easy for these people to cross right over the line to whitesplaining and patronizing.
For Trump I already think he's racist so him calling a country a shithole is different than when I've heard others call a country or a place a shithole. I'm sure I've called parts of a certain couple of countries I've been in shitholes. It wasn't about the race of the people or all the people but just what the place was.
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The thing that frustrates me Ranger is that I have voted for people to push some of these specific policies and they have either lost elections, or when in office, proceeded to ignore the issue or actively legislate the exact opposite of how they ran.
Donald Trump is the last guy I wanted representing my views in Washington but he was the only one running who came close to some of my views. I either vote for someone I think is wholly corrupt and holds almost no views similar to mine on the important issues or I vote for the buffoon and hope that the people he surrounds himself with get some things I want done...and he has done more than Gorsuch.
The entire reason Trump was elected in my opinion is that the GOP ran one way and then legislated another for about 20 years. That coupled with the Democrats writing off all the "bubbas" in flyover country got us to here. We have some real substantive issues that people want a decision on and we have 2 political parties that have completely abdicated their role in running the country. So something rose up to fill the void.
Statistics show that black immigrants from Haiti or Africa tend to achieve more than black people who are born here. Is your point an explanation for that?
As much as I dislike Trump I wish Dick Durbin would have kept his mouth shut. I'm afraid now we won't be able to get an agreement for the Dreamers now. Trump is so petty I think he would rather see 800,000 people be removed from the US just to prove a point. I also think that those conversations were to be off the record. It's probably about as hard to get Trump to the table as it is to get Kim Jong to a discussion. I would imagine Dick has heard worse, maybe not by a President, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The “I don’t give a crap” attitude could the difference- maker in the presence of trash. If so it is probably also part of the explanation for persistent poverty in some communities. Seems to me most of the war on poverty assumes people do give a crap.
You got divided progressives on your hands. Some, the smart ones like you, are working or at least thinking on practical approaches to try to win an election. Others, numbered carefully from zero to minus 30 here are so eaten up with hate that spewing hatred toward all things not progressive hatred of anyone not in lockstep with them is all they are capable of. They have no idea about how to take a practical approach to politics. They just scream and demand that their party trash even liberals who disagree with them on single points. They demand lockstep marching to the extremists' tune and have no way to change. They think you are crazy as a bed bug for your post and they hate me and think I'm crazier than you are.
Huh? Racists are almost 100% emotional. They sure aren’t objective or logical in how they treat others. Your propensity to use racism to set yourself apart from those who disagree with you about objectively non-racist issues is easy and not intellectually challenging.
Interesting that you include race as an explanatory variable. I guess you mean to account for the racial discrimination people of color face in the United States regardless of their birthplace. Good call.
The basic point is that immigrants should, on average, be better than non-immigrants; and immigrants from bad places should, on average, be better than immigrants from good places. So, the answer to Trump's question "why are we taking all these immigrants from s*** countries?" Answer: because on average they are not only better than our current citizens but also those from other "better" countries.
So, having you post in this thread makes the water cooler a shithole? Or does it just make you a shitty person?
Blah blah blah. I never bring up racism unless it's right up front for the entire world to see. And we are rightly getting lambasted for it.
238 posts debating the merits of a POTUS calling multiple countries "shitholes." I never would have imagined something like that. What a time to be alive!
It’s a cult. People like @dbmhoosier would seriously defend Trump if he shot someone in the middle of the street, just like he said. He gives them an excuse to openly spew their ignorance, and not care if it’s accurate or not. He does it, so why can’t they?
And then if you point out that it’s blatantly false, they whine about the educated elite and being politically correct. And round and round we go…
