Miller or Holtmann
- Thread starter blueandgold23
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The next 2 seasons are going to tell us a lot on this question. Holtmann has certainly had more success thus far. But so did Mike Davis his first 2 seasons and countless other coaches.
Bruce Weber had more 'success' his first 2 yrs as head coach of Illinois than the following:
1. Coach K at Duke
2. Roy Williams at Kansas
3. Tom Izzo at MSU
4. John Beilein at Michigan
5. John Wooden at UCLA
Oh, forgot one:
6. RMK at IU
Much of a coach's initial success lies with the condition of the program that he inherited (case in point- Weber). I think we can all agree, IU's program was not in good shape, in terms of talent, balanced personnel, recent success on the court or on the recruiting trail, when CTC departed.
Let's see how this season goes.
1. Coach K at Duke
2. Roy Williams at Kansas
3. Tom Izzo at MSU
4. John Beilein at Michigan
5. John Wooden at UCLA
Oh, forgot one:
6. RMK at IU
Much of a coach's initial success lies with the condition of the program that he inherited (case in point- Weber). I think we can all agree, IU's program was not in good shape, in terms of talent, balanced personnel, recent success on the court or on the recruiting trail, when CTC departed.
Let's see how this season goes.
Reverse it and you got it, although Archie is still younger I think. He'd been a HC for longer and was actually the more proven commodity at the time.
My whole problem is that I don't perceive that much of anyone had input on this besides FG and the appearance is that he locked on on AM pretty early and decided he was "the guy". Regardless if you think you have the right candidate, it's always good to go through a thorough hiring process, and Holtmann should have been a part of that, among others. I'd have liked for them to interview Mike White at FL.
I am happy with Archie. His recruiting plan is for long term stability and excellence, not an immediate climb followed by huge drop-offs when the star players leave for the NBA. Archie's teams play good team defense and value the basketball. Archie is the anti-Crean.
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There isn’t a big enough sample size for me at this time. Archie seemed to do a decent job his first year. Sketchy roster and surprising losses.
Last year was a bad year for the many reasons that have been discussed at great length on this board.
Year 3 should tell us a lot.
Last year was a bad year for the many reasons that have been discussed at great length on this board.
Year 3 should tell us a lot.
I still like Miller over Holtman.
If IU stops a couple deep 3's against the Buckeyes, we wouldnt be having this conversation.
If IU stops a couple deep 3's against the Buckeyes, we wouldnt be having this conversation.
Why would you say that Holtmann was more proven? Because he coach at Bulter and it is a higher profile job than Dayton?
I think a lot of the older fanbase is going to really like Miller after this year.
Not because it's some magical year 3 blind faith.
It's because he has very strongly hinted that he's employing a heavier motion offense which is new and a change of philosophy according to him.
At Evansville he mentioned that Painter is one of the few coaches anymore that use a heavy motion and it's differentiated him enough to make it really hard to defend. Twenty years ago everyone ran motion but now kids from grade school through AAU grow up playing in a pick and roll, dribble drive spacing offense.
Then yesterday and last week's media day it was echoed. The focus has been ball movement and off ball cutting and picking.
Anyway I think the old guard is going to really like seeing that particularly if we start winning like I believe we will.
Not because it's some magical year 3 blind faith.
It's because he has very strongly hinted that he's employing a heavier motion offense which is new and a change of philosophy according to him.
At Evansville he mentioned that Painter is one of the few coaches anymore that use a heavy motion and it's differentiated him enough to make it really hard to defend. Twenty years ago everyone ran motion but now kids from grade school through AAU grow up playing in a pick and roll, dribble drive spacing offense.
Then yesterday and last week's media day it was echoed. The focus has been ball movement and off ball cutting and picking.
Anyway I think the old guard is going to really like seeing that particularly if we start winning like I believe we will.
Why didn't he go after Donovan or Coach K? Why would White have left other than $ and being "in the shadow" of UK? Lets name some realistic candidates based on the state the program was in. Add to it knowing you are dealing with a fanbase that would rebel after 2 seasons that actually were better than preseason predictions from experts guessed. We've got 3 4* players coming in next year in positions of need. We've been locking down the best talent in the state. The program is world better than it was 2 and a half years ago. Give the man time for ****s sake! Holtmann took over a stacked roster Matta left after his 3 best players were basically out for his entire last season. Crean? Tommy like wingy!
Be still my heart. Seriously. Ive said repeatedly that Miller needs to change the offense. Ive watched it and studied it closely by rewatching games from the past 2 seasons and studying the handouts that TMP uploaded a while ago. I am convinced that changing the offense to increase movement off the ball will benefit IU. Miller seems like he is reasonable in how he thinks about basketball. I think he is still learning, and I am very hopeful that whatever they add this season, that it draws results.
The defense doesn't need a lot of change, it just needs the right personnel. Offensively, things can improve greatly, and recognizing it and making changes- those are good things.
I would love to see motion return, in any form.
The program 2 and half years ago had just finished up winning the the Big Ten and going to the SW 16. Are you predicting a final four run?
Edit: I messed up the years. Disregard and carry on.
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My post was in jest towards the troll. Archie is the coach. It’s pointless to argue over it a month before the season. That’s what the off-season is for.
We got the right one. Here in Ohio, OSU fans were all about hiring Miller away from UD, but the timing didn’t work out and we got him. I still think that will be a great thing for IU.
I do think guys like Mack and Holtmann will prove to be better recruiters than Archie. Archie is just such an introvert. He can coach though. This season and the 2021 class will tell us almost everything.
Seriously? You're putting Mike White in the realm of Coach K or Donovan? Other than $? That's a reason many folks take new jobs. That and that the new gig is a higher profile program focused on his sport.... White to IU would have made a lot of sense. No idea if he'd have been interested and I'm not down on CAM, I just think we didn't do a thorough search and talk with a lot of qualified candidates. That to me is how you hit a home run. RMK wasn't an obvious choice coming out of Army either.
Based on the numerous interviews and press conferences he's given. Also his demeanor on the sideline. The same reason everyone knows Tom Crean is an extreme extrovert although also a total weirdo. Archie does appear to be tough and a fighter and competitor. I like him.
Excellent.
Thanks, TC, not sure if you were in Evansville for this, or if there is audio/video that someone would be kind enough to link?
A couple of thoughts:
I would have loved to have seen this out of the Hoosiers last season. Everyone is aware of our shooting deficiencies, but poor shooting doesn't have to translate to poor scoring. IMHO, last years players were not put into a position where their strengths were accentuated and their weaknesses hidden. Romeo could have been deadly moving without the ball. Instead we saw him standing around outside the three waiting. He was a fantastic finisher, and we could have put him into the position where he could benefit from that by running him off a myriad of screens. I actually think that Smith and Green could have benefited from this as well. Give the players an opportunity to move without the ball.
As for the OP, our league is devoid of coaching stars right now. Yes, there's Izzo, but you never know how long he's gonna be at State. Painter is an excellent coach, certainly a system guy that so far has proven he can do more with less, but I doubt anyone is going to call him an elite coach. You look at the other power conferences and they all seem to have multiple stud coaches. Obviously you see them at all of the elite programs, but you also see some elite caliber coaches at schools like VA that aren't elite programs. This is an opportunity for someone (like a Miller) to step up. If we were in the ACC I would look around at all of the great coaches and feel nervous. But the B10? We certainly lack star power from a coaching standpoint considering we are a power league.
Based on all the intangibles that I can feel and see, this should be a breakout year for IU. I would be really dissapointed if we finish 6th or lower in this conference. We can make fun of Painter and PU all we want but the arrow is pointing up for them as a program. Some of that is what they have done, but part of that is also the fact that the top programs in the league have arrows pointing down, WAY down. Michigan, Wisconsin, OSU all are programs that have been routinely found in the top tier of the league over the last decade or two. But, that had a lot to do with their former coaches. Painter has benefited. Miller has a window to do the same. If he can't can't turn this around this year, it will really suck. The league is wide open. I don't mean the 2019-2020 conference race is wide open. I mean that there is a tremendous chance for some young coach to turn their BT program into one of the Big Tens best over the next decade or two.
Who will do it?
I agree, though I attribute it more to being no-nonsense than introverted. I think he is a fierce competitor.
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I'll take fierce, intense introvert over spastic, quirky and sometimes downright weird.
It's in this speech but I don't have the time stamp. He's talking about how he wants this upcoming team to move and share the ball and points to Painter. I think he looks at Todd Leary and laughs and says 20 years ago everyone ran motion and grew up with it so there was no edge but today kids struggle defending it because only a few run it.
Or something like that.
Said you have to have an experienced team which he has.
Justin Smith echoed that he's not worried about increasing his scoring or trying to be a better scorer because everyone is expected to score when they move the ball and get a good shot at his media day.
Then yesterday at Archie's table interview he again said that he wanted more ball movement and sharing. Last year the ball got stuck too much. He wouldn't be surprised if we had four to eight quick passes going through everyone.
He also said it was a definite change in offensive philosophy.
So I'm hoping we see it on the court. We don't have any super stars but we have a lot of really good, experienced four star players.
I also think a motion offense will help a guy like Justin Smith, as it will have him moving, screening and diving which has to be defended vs standing and spacing on the perimeter with a defender playing off of him packing the post.
Man, it's just so nice having a coach who is quietly confident, thoughtful and well-spoken. Makes me feel better about him every time I hear him... now, we just gotta win!
I'm not convinced Justin Smith plays as many minutes this season with more healthy players at his position. Can you leave a 50% or less FT shooter stay on the floor late in a tight game when the opposing team may foul him on purpose expecting a missed FT. Or not guard him on the perimeter and his man drops into the lane or double teams the post.
Both Romeo and Morgan were players who excelled when they had a lot of space to work. Miller tried to run a high screen for Tomeo and it didn't work because the kid was used to floor spacing in high school. I agree he should have been run off of other screens away from the ball.
But Morgan worked best when he simply made a post move. He needed room and clock for his best offense.
I think both of these things ran contrary to Miller's 2-1-2 flair offense, or whatever he calls it.
The problem with the offense has been that big players have the ball to much outside of the arc where they can't readily score. That has dual negative effect. Also, there is limited opportunity when you are passing to the same direction you are headed to set a screen. Very little was run off screens away from the ball to find a curling shooter. Purdue did that very well the last several years. When Painter has a guard enter the ball at the high post, it gives them more options to find shooters off the fade screen, crosscourt, or high-low action. It also give the big a chance to just work the paint from 15. For a guy like Haarms or Haas, that is one spin to the hoop.
Indiana had late clock issues because the offense did not generate open looks. A lot of the poor shooting had to do with simply not having open shots and not veing able to catch and shoot in rhythm because of the tired offense. By about game 2 of the Big Ten, teams understood they had to hedge that high screen. Only Green ever really was able to breach that gap and hit a roller (Morgan). And of course sometimes it ended in a teardrop airball, which i can gladly say has been a staple only of Devonte.
Anyway, IU will be better at guarding Kaleb Wesson when he catches it out at 13 feet. Brunk should be able to help defend not only his offense, but his passing as well.
Holtman continues to have good luck with recruiting, but I still think Miller can get the job done.
But Morgan worked best when he simply made a post move. He needed room and clock for his best offense.
I think both of these things ran contrary to Miller's 2-1-2 flair offense, or whatever he calls it.
The problem with the offense has been that big players have the ball to much outside of the arc where they can't readily score. That has dual negative effect. Also, there is limited opportunity when you are passing to the same direction you are headed to set a screen. Very little was run off screens away from the ball to find a curling shooter. Purdue did that very well the last several years. When Painter has a guard enter the ball at the high post, it gives them more options to find shooters off the fade screen, crosscourt, or high-low action. It also give the big a chance to just work the paint from 15. For a guy like Haarms or Haas, that is one spin to the hoop.
Indiana had late clock issues because the offense did not generate open looks. A lot of the poor shooting had to do with simply not having open shots and not veing able to catch and shoot in rhythm because of the tired offense. By about game 2 of the Big Ten, teams understood they had to hedge that high screen. Only Green ever really was able to breach that gap and hit a roller (Morgan). And of course sometimes it ended in a teardrop airball, which i can gladly say has been a staple only of Devonte.
Anyway, IU will be better at guarding Kaleb Wesson when he catches it out at 13 feet. Brunk should be able to help defend not only his offense, but his passing as well.
Holtman continues to have good luck with recruiting, but I still think Miller can get the job done.
Miller hands down long term. We should be averaging 25 wins a year starting next year.
You do know that Jackson Davis is a horrendous shooter/free throw shooter.
As is Brunk.
Davis has been but had a decent stroke at the end of last year, but it's not what he's known for.
You benching all four of them?
Rewatch the end of the MSU game last year. Do you trust Damezi to recognize that Winston just destroyed Langford and had an open alley layup to win the game, only to have a streaking Smith recognize it, recover and alter his shot securing the win?
Again, we're not playing horse. It's a multi layered game. Nojel Eastern is probably the worst individual offensive player in Purdue's history...but he's a freak of a defensive player with a good handle that can post up smaller guards. He took what, something like 6 total three's last year. Why did Painter play him so much when he had Sasha who's a ten times better stand still shooter than Eastern.
You need whoever you want to bench Smith for to be able to cover for the impacts to winning that he brings. Hunter is obviously the ideal candidate. Damezi has to have ten fold improvement to get there. Right now he's only a shooter and a poor one at that.
I'm curious to how he looks as I am everyone but he's the opposite of Smith, he's so slow and unathletic that he has to bulk up and just be physically bigger and then shoot 45% from three to not be a liability.
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