McCarthy

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Question: Will the GOP rebels accept another establishment Speaker, so long as it isn't McCarthy? Or, even if McCarthy does bow out, will the next person just have the exact same problem?

If it's the latter, I wonder how long this drama has to unfold before people seriously start to consider the idea of a unity leadership floated by Ro Khanna last month.

 

[IUCrazy2]

You wrote about Republicans as follows:

"dumbass move"
"crappy milquetoast"
"arrogantly moved his butt"
"an extremely low viewpoint of the GOP"
"arrogant"
"Burn the party down."
"next to useless."

Wow. Vote Republican 2024!! You guys really think Republicans are the answer, LOL.

And how did I end that? Hint, it definitely wouldn't be with, "So vote for the only assholes who are worse."

 

[zeke4ahs]

What was his part in it?

Seriously? Six wrestlers have said Jordan knew about the abuse that was going on because they told him and he did nothing. Surely you know this.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Ok as someone else mentioned, I thought he had agreed to all of their demands.

Behind closed doors. As they (Twenty and Spartan) both alluded to, they don't trust him anymore.

I am for the bloodbath. McCarthy was in leadership as Boehner's guy when Paul Ryan ended up being the compromise pick. He is the same old crap. We should all be tired of the small group of people that get to run things on both sides.



There is room to work here if we move some people out of the way IMO.

And what AOC and Gaetz were talking about was McCarthy saying things that aren't true behind closed doors again. Gaetz was smart enough to go and talk.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Behind closed doors. As they (Twenty and Spartan) both alluded to, they don't trust him anymore.

I am for the bloodbath. McCarthy was in leadership as Boehner's guy when Paul Ryan ended up being the compromise pick. He is the same old crap. We should all be tired of the small group of people that get to run things on both sides.

View embedded media

There is room to work here if we move some people out of the way IMO.

So who would you be in favor of?

 

[IUCrazy2]

So who would you be in favor of?

Honestly, somebody that most of us have probably never heard of. Pick a name out of a hat.

 

[twenty02]

Honestly, somebody that most of us have probably never heard of. Pick a name out of a hat.

I'm honestly no fan of McCarthy. My OP probably gave that away.....

But just like Boehner and Ryan.... whomever takes the job is writing their political obituary, as the makeup of the GOP conference in the House is un-governable. I wouldn't even call it a majority.

Pray for all your 401ks come this summer when the debt ceiling fight hits the fan.

 

[DANC]

Seriously? Six wrestlers have said Jordan knew about the abuse that was going on because they told him and he did nothing. Surely you know this.

I don't believe unfounded rumors.

 

[zeke4ahs]

I don't believe unfounded rumors.

But you believe 2,000 Mules, which is full of unfounded rumors. So you think six wrestlers lied about it? Nice.

 

[outside shooter]

 

[DANC]

But you believe 2,000 Mules, which is full of unfounded rumors. So you think six wrestlers lied about it? Nice.

But you believe 2,000 Mules, which is full of unfounded rumors. So you think six wrestlers lied about it? Nice.

Deflecting again? Can't you back up your accusations? If you can't, stop spouting liberal gossip and rumors.

 

[twenty02]

Behind closed doors. As they (Twenty and Spartan) both alluded to, they don't trust him anymore.

I am for the bloodbath. McCarthy was in leadership as Boehner's guy when Paul Ryan ended up being the compromise pick. He is the same old crap. We should all be tired of the small group of people that get to run things on both sides.

View embedded media

There is room to work here if we move some people out of the way IMO.

And what AOC and Gaetz were talking about was McCarthy saying things that aren't true behind closed doors again. Gaetz was smart enough to go and talk.

What Matt Gaetz and AOC Talked About During Kevin McCarthy’s Speaker Vote

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez talked with far-right Reps. Matt Gaetz and Paul Gosar about Rep. Kevin McCarthy’s bid to be House speaker in the 118th Congress.

theintercept.com

So this was supposedly the discussion?

I'll say what McCarthy is proposing is certainly viable.... and how it would come about would be giving some something up of value to Democratic leadership or perhaps a bloc of moderates.

AOC isn't in leadership and has no clue what the hell is being discussed. Gaetz is a complete clown, anything he is involved with you know isn't serious.

But there is no way the Dems would do this deal today. They are going to enjoy the chaos for a while. Probably a long while.

But in the end there are probably 350+ members of Congress that want the House to function. The other 85 are fine with being insane and blowing shit up.

Allowing 20 out of 434 to dictate its rules and makeup is letting the insane run the asylum, and will never fly.

Right now there is no alternative name. Scalisce is probably the most likely. But he's from leadership too.

One thing that people may not understand, if the Speaker is someone from outside of existing leadership, there is a lot of fundraising infrastructure tied to those individuals, that would be washed away. Could really put GOP behind the 8 ball going into '24 in the perpetual election cycle that is the House.

 

[larsIU]

Question: Will the GOP rebels accept another establishment Speaker, so long as it isn't McCarthy? Or, even if McCarthy does bow out, will the next person just have the exact same problem?

If it's the latter, I wonder how long this drama has to unfold before people seriously start to consider the idea of a unity leadership floated by Ro Khanna last month.

If ever they write of the rise of a third party, this could be a fitting first act.

 

[IUCrazy2]

What Matt Gaetz and AOC Talked About During Kevin McCarthy’s Speaker Vote

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez talked with far-right Reps. Matt Gaetz and Paul Gosar about Rep. Kevin McCarthy’s bid to be House speaker in the 118th Congress.

theintercept.com

So this was supposedly the discussion?

I'll say what McCarthy is proposing is certainly viable.... and how it would come about would be giving some something up of value to Democratic leadership or perhaps a bloc of moderates.

AOC isn't in leadership and has no clue what the hell is being discussed. Gaetz is a complete clown, anything he is involved with you know isn't serious.

But there is no way the Dems would do this deal today. They are going to enjoy the chaos for a while. Probably a long while.

But in the end there are probably 350+ members of Congress that want the House to function. The other 85 are fine with being insane and blowing shit up.

Allowing 20 out of 434 to dictate its rules and makeup is letting the insane run the asylum, and will never fly.

Right now there is no alternative name. Scalisce is probably the most likely. But he's from leadership too.

One thing that people may not understand, if the Speaker is someone from outside of existing leadership, there is a lot of fundraising infrastructure tied to those individuals, that would be washed away. Could really put GOP behind the 8 ball going into '24 in the perpetual election cycle that is the House.

Much like some people were willing to take it on the chin to get rid of Trump, I think the same logic applies to the dead weight at the top of the GOP.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Deflecting again? Can't you back up your accusations? If you can't, stop spouting liberal gossip and rumors.

Liberal gossip and rumors. You’re in serious denial of anything that doesn’t fit your agenda.

 

[twenty02]

Much like some people were willing to take it on the chin to get rid of Trump, I think the same logic applies to the dead weight at the top of the GOP.

What's the dead weight?

Ryan was one of the "Young Guns" from a decade ago.... so was Eric Cantor and McCarthy.

Ambitious 'Young Guns' Shake Up GOP

A group called the Young Guns is poised for a new kind of Republican majority if the GOP takes the House in November. The group's top brass say they're bringing much-needed new ideas, but insist they don't aim to overthrow established leaders like John Boehner. Others warn the veterans to look out.

www.npr.org

They were the new generation. And they were all put out for the shooting gallery by backbench losers that couldn't lead themselves out of a paper bag.

It's not like any of the assassins have any clue what to do once they take out their target.

All the modern day Republican party knows how to do is to kill their own talent.

Meanwhile the other side plays chess while these idiots eat the checker board. When's the last time you saw the Democrats not meet a roll call vote for Pelosi in the last 20 years?

Not since the Know Nothing party of the 1850s has there been a more dysfunctional party than the GOP from 2011-2023. It's no surprise that the Speaker vote is on track to go back to the 1850s history.

It was also the last period of time where a political party died. I know it would make @dbmhoosier and others like yourself happy to see the Republican party die. What comes after it is any guess....

The real problem is the disastrous GOP primary system that is setup by its nature to reward the craziest elephant in the cage. Until that is fixed at the local and state level.... and there are a lot more insane people at the local and state level of GOP politics (basically Libertarian kooks) than you ever want to know.... it won't get fixed.

I'll get a lotta yaabuts.... about the crazy progressives. And they exist in plenty, but the Democratic party has done a much better job of freezing them out (or at very least controlling them) on their left flank than the GOP has done on the right flank over the last decade.

 

[IUCrazy2]

What's the dead weight?

Ryan was one of the "Young Guns" from a decade ago.... so was Eric Cantor and McCarthy.

Ambitious 'Young Guns' Shake Up GOP

A group called the Young Guns is poised for a new kind of Republican majority if the GOP takes the House in November. The group's top brass say they're bringing much-needed new ideas, but insist they don't aim to overthrow established leaders like John Boehner. Others warn the veterans to look out.

www.npr.org

They were the new generation. And they were all put out for the shooting gallery by backbench losers that couldn't lead themselves out of a paper bag.

It's not like any of the assassins have any clue what to do once they take out their target.

All the modern day Republican party knows how to do is to kill their own talent.

Meanwhile the other side plays chess while these idiots eat the checker board. When's the last time you saw the Democrats not meet a roll call vote for Pelosi in the last 20 years?

Not since the Know Nothing party of the 1850s has there been a more dysfunctional party than the GOP from 2011-2023. It's no surprise that the Speaker vote is on track to go back to the 1850s history.

It was also the last period of time where a political party died. I know it would make @dbmhoosier and others like yourself happy to see the Republican party die. What comes after it is any guess....

The real problem is the disastrous GOP primary system that is setup by its nature to reward the craziest elephant in the cage. Until that is fixed at the local and state level.... and there are a lot more insane people at the local and state level of GOP politics (basically Libertarian kooks) than you ever want to know.... it won't get fixed.

I'll get a lotta yaabuts.... about the crazy progressives. And they exist in plenty, but the Democratic party has done a much better job of freezing them out (or at very least controlling them) on their left flank than the GOP has done on the right flank over the last decade.

The GOP has been a bunch of do nothings, if the party died, who cares? WTF does the party do or stand for other than taking on the "right wing" of the party all the time and always falling short of stopping the dastardly Democrats? "We just need some more donations and for you to vote harder..." Cantor, Ryan, and McCarthy didn't do shit. Some young guns.

Kind of hard to rally your troops when you don't stand for anything. You guys bag on the far right all the time but they at least articulate and advance a position.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

You guys bag on the far right all the time but they at least articulate and advance a position.

So does AOC. So did Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini. Be very wary of people who see exactly one message and it 100% has to be exactly that message.

 

[IUCrazy2]

So does AOC. So did Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini. Be very wary of people who see exactly one message and it 100% has to be exactly that message.

This is going to be long, so TL/DR, I don't want or need exactly "The Message" but I need something.

Marvin, I am basically what you guys call the far right. I am not a racist, or a Nazi, or MAGA. I am pragmatic about some things but for the sake of how the labels get applied on the forums, I am "far right".

Let me tell you how the "far right" views this.

1. We have dutifully supported the GOP for years. Decades. The GOP has paid lip service to what we want. "Abortion bad. Protect the border. Make Amsrica strong. Control government size and spending." Blah, blah, blah. We got tax cuts and wars when the GOP was in power and caving when they were out of power. At a certain point, you have to earn a vote more than just being "Democrats bad". Yeah, we are already on that page, so what are you going to do about it?

2. Of all those things I mentioned that they pay lip service to, one of them has had some movement and that is entirely because of the guy and his voters that are labeled as Satan by everyone. He isn't my first choice either and he has acted in some ways that are beyond the pale and yet your one and only victory (which many of you, the GOP establishment, want to run from) is due to his 3 picks for the Supreme Court. The border? They slow walked dealing with that issue. The military? Ignored beyond throwing money at the donors and party members who end up being part of War, Inc. Control government growth and spending? Hahahahahaha We had McConnell just sign onto another giant omnibus because he was afraid that "the far right" in the House would be problematic on voting through that monstrosity without questions. Which leads to number 3.

3. The "establishment" in the party is often more interested in fighting their own "allies" than they are in advancing any kind of agenda. And all of that is secondary to just making sure that the boat doesn't rock too bad. As Twenty pointed out up above, gotta watch the 401k's. So what happens while you aren't rocking the boat? Schools and academia are slowly moving to push the "America Sucks" version of history. The Alphabet Mafia has full control over the culture. Can't say shit about them. If you do you are a domestic terrorist. GOP didn't do shit about the FBI and our intelligence services going after "far right" parents pushing back. The military has gone full pronoun woke. And they are having trouble getting people to join. Trannies aren't lining up to be GI Joe, who knew? Taxes? Most of their voters barely pay them anymore. The economy? They are the say we want closed borders but take Koch money and do the opposite party. Your job? The corporations tell us that it is more efficient to do the work somewhere else. The rest of you can buy cheap ass TVs and drown in Oxy. The market is good, so America is good.

There is more, but at some point they have to take a real stand, really propose solutions, and then actually vote for legislation and advance an agenda to address the issues. They don't. They haven't. And it has been that way for a very long time. They need to do better. And if it takes one wing of the party threatening to burn it down to get their attention, I am here for it. Even if I am not 100% in lock step with all the aims of those complaining. We whine on this forum all the time about the major parties needing an overhaul, this is what that process looks like.

 

[NPT]

The dozen or so throwing a temper tantrum are all you really got.

They act like a 2 year old that doesn't get their way. How do they keep being elected? Probably because they still look good compared to the other choice they have.

Jolly also thinks McCarthy will quit. As in resign his seat and leave the House.

I never have like McCarthy.... he's wanting the leadership to seek revenge on the Democrats for the Jan 6th hearings FWIW, I do think the Hunter Biden fiasco needs to be looked in to.

They ring in their fringes when needed on votes.

Well, if Nancy gave you the "look" you'd be afraid not to vote the way she wants. 🤣

That woman would make me celibate

We thought you already were.🤣🤣

And how did I end that? Hint, it definitely wouldn't be with, "So vote for the only assholes who are worse."

Some people just can't imagine criticizing their own party because they think it's like admitting the other party is better.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Agree with them or not, crazy positions on other things or not, his reasoning is pretty conservative and it is hard to push back on his arguments. If we the people want change, the things Roy brings up are the type of things that need addressed IMO. Going along to get along isn't always the best practice.

 

[UncleMark]

So this was supposedly the discussion?

I'll say what McCarthy is proposing is certainly viable.... and how it would come about would be giving some something up of value to Democratic leadership or perhaps a bloc of moderates.

McCarthy's own party members don't trust him. How could the Dems be assured he'd follow through with any deal? Pubs think he's a weasel and a welch. They might be right.

 

[dbmhoosier]

😔

 

[twenty02]

You guys bag on the far right all the time but they at least articulate and advance a position.

Anyone can advocate a position. Not too hard.
Now get 218 and 60 and an executive branch to follow your position. If you can't, you are just a sideshow clown.

You seem to be living in a world of theory, hope and dream, not one of reality. You'd make a good professor, not much of a legislator.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Anyone can advocate a position. Not too hard.
Now get 218 and 60 and an executive branch to follow your position. If you can't, you are just a sideshow clown.

You seem to be living in a world of theory, hope and dream, not one of reality. You'd make a good professor, not much of a legislator.

Twenty, simple question, what are the Republicans trying to accomplish right now? Can you point to anything specifically? I can't. What is their vision for the country? How are they proposing we address the issues that face the country?

I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the way I would like things to be would be impossible to completely pass right now. However, I believe I have positions that could get passed. The border and immigration needs fixed. The American public supports that. You could pass legislation, working with the political opposition, to come to an agreeable compromise. I will use you as a proxy for the larger establishment Republican contingent, what's your plan?

You are the one not living in reality. You have to have an outline of a plan to advocate in order to build consensus around it before you can even get to the legislative phase. Your position is, "Nah, that won't pass and won't be supported or is political suicide." Cool, what's your plan? That is a microcosm of the establishment GOP. If you don't put forth a plan for people to follow, eventually someone will. "We don't like MAGA." Make your ****ing counterpoint then.

Not MAGA, not Democrats, not Progressives, fine. Then you. What do you want to do establishment GOP? From where I sit it is to just keep whatever power you have and let all 3 of those other groups push the narrative because you have none.

Edit to add: When you enter into any negotiation and your only thoughts are "no to the current thing but I have to do something" you are agreeing to letting your negotiating partner set the parameters of the discussion. "I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a car." Your spouse wants a Bugatti but you have a Honda Civic budget. You don't want to argue the budget though so you say a Bugatti is a little too expensive. So your spouse says, "How about an Escalade?" Sure! Wow, what a winner you are. Still got a luxury car out of your budget that is going to have payments that blow up your monthly budget but you "won" by getting a less expensive luxury vehicle. That isn't a win. That is the modern GOP.

 

[twenty02]

Twenty, simple question, what are the Republicans trying to accomplish right now? Can you point to anything specifically? I can't. What is their vision for the country? How are they proposing we address the issues that face the country?

I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the way I would like things to be would be impossible to completely pass right now. However, I believe I have positions that could get passed. The border and immigration needs fixed. The American public supports that. You could pass legislation, working with the political opposition, to come to an agreeable compromise. I will use you as a proxy for the larger establishment Republican contingent, what's your plan?

You are the one not living in reality. You have to have an outline of a plan to advocate in order to build consensus around it before you can even get to the legislative phase. Your position is, "Nah, that won't pass and won't be supported or is political suicide." Cool, what's your plan? That is a microcosm of the establishment GOP. If you don't put forth a plan for people to follow, eventually someone will. "We don't like MAGA." Make your ****ing counterpoint then.

Not MAGA, not Democrats, not Progressives, fine. Then you. What do you want to do establishment GOP? From where I sit it is to just keep whatever power you have and let all 3 of those other groups push the narrative because you have none.

Sure... let's take you example of immigration. Go review what happened the last time that was attempted, in seriousness. It was the Gang of 8 Bill from 2013... it passed the Senate 68-32. If you want to 'work with the opposition' that would be the framework.

Boehner couldn't even bring it to the House floor because the right flank would have crucified him.

I don't know what world you are living in, but it's not the real one.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

View embedded media

Agree with them or not, crazy positions on other things or not, his reasoning is pretty conservative and it is hard to push back on his arguments. If we the people want change, the things Roy brings up are the type of things that need addressed IMO. Going along to get along isn't always the best practice.

Roy is spot on. Congress needs to change to “save democracy.” Cram-down legislation flowing from partisan divides needs to stop. The problem is that Roy has chosen the wrong weapon. You can’t change things by raising hell about McCarthy. He was minority leader. Under the system Pelosi contrived, the minority has zero influence.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Sure... let's take you example of immigration. Go review what happened the last time that was attempted, in seriousness. It was the Gang of 8 Bill from 2013... it passed the Senate 68-32. If you want to 'work with the opposition' that would be the framework.

Boehner couldn't even bring it to the House floor because the right flank would have crucified him.

I don't know what world you are living in, but it's not the real one.

That is where Boehner was a failure. IIRC, the main issue with all of the immigration reform was that enforcement was always to follow some sort of amnesty. You need to get that hammered out. The public is extremely amenable to tighter border control, you have to make the case to increase public pressure.

At a certain point in a right leaning coalition, you have to be as willing to fight for some of the right leaning principles as you are willing to capitulate to the opposition. Boehner had it harder because he had Obama at the top. We got nothing but tax reform out of the first two years of Trump.

Edit to add: And you still didn't answer the bigger question, what is the establishment GOP's plan for any of this?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Sure... let's take you example of immigration. Go review what happened the last time that was attempted, in seriousness. It was the Gang of 8 Bill from 2013... it passed the Senate 68-32. If you want to 'work with the opposition' that would be the framework.

Boehner couldn't even bring it to the House floor because the right flank would have crucified him.

I don't know what world you are living in, but it's not the real one.

The problem with immigration now is not the law. It is not congress. The problem is Biden’s brain trust (and previous administrations to a lesser extent) ignores the law. The right flank has only asked to follow the law before we change it. Otherwise why change it?

 

[UncleMark]

That is where Boehner was a failure. IIRC, the main issue with all of the immigration reform was that enforcement was always to follow some sort of amnesty. You need to get that hammered out. The public is extremely amenable to tighter border control, you have to make the case to increase public pressure.

That limited "amnesty" was part of the compromise that was struck. That's how compromise works. That's the only way it passed the Senate. The House Pubs blew it up, and here we are ten years later.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Roy is spot on. Congress needs to change to “save democracy.” Cram-down legislation flowing from partisan divides needs to stop. The problem is that Roy has chosen the wrong weapon. You can’t change things by raising hell about McCarthy. He was minority leader. Under the system Pelosi contrived, the minority has zero influence.

McCarthy is partly getting torpedoed because of what McConnell pulled on the budget and he is also a long standing member of leadership. He was the leadership pick that got torpedoed in favor of Ryan because people don't value him as a leader.

This whole Speaker vote is a microcosm of what Roy was complaining about. The leadership got together,said this is our guy, go along or you are the enemy. McCarthy already occupied the damn office.

 

[IUCrazy2]

That limited "amnesty" was part of the compromise that was struck. That's how compromise works. That's the only way it passed the Senate. The House Pubs blew it up, and here we are ten years later.

I would have to go back and look around that argument, but I think the sticking point around the amnesty was that it went into effect immediately while the border items were things that would be funded but took more time so could be backed out of the moment the Democrats regained power. That isn't a compromise, it is yanking the football.

However, I don't want the immigration argument to derail my main point, that is the GOP establishment isn't putting forth their own vision on anything so they are forced into fighting on the ground of choosing of those who are. Then they bitch about the ground.

 

[IUCrazy2]

😔

View embedded media

Respectfully, screw Donald. He isn't the guy. He talks about "draining the swamp" and all that crap but he couldn't even deal with them in his own administration, to the point of allowing Fauci to basically sink his Presidency at the end.

He is done. He ain't it.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

This is going to be long, so TL/DR, I don't want or need exactly "The Message" but I need something.

Marvin, I am basically what you guys call the far right. I am not a racist, or a Nazi, or MAGA. I am pragmatic about some things but for the sake of how the labels get applied on the forums, I am "far right".

Let me tell you how the "far right" views this.

1. We have dutifully supported the GOP for years. Decades. The GOP has paid lip service to what we want. "Abortion bad. Protect the border. Make Amsrica strong. Control government size and spending." Blah, blah, blah. We got tax cuts and wars when the GOP was in power and caving when they were out of power. At a certain point, you have to earn a vote more than just being "Democrats bad". Yeah, we are already on that page, so what are you going to do about it?

2. Of all those things I mentioned that they pay lip service to, one of them has had some movement and that is entirely because of the guy and his voters that are labeled as Satan by everyone. He isn't my first choice either and he has acted in some ways that are beyond the pale and yet your one and only victory (which many of you, the GOP establishment, want to run from) is due to his 3 picks for the Supreme Court. The border? They slow walked dealing with that issue. The military? Ignored beyond throwing money at the donors and party members who end up being part of War, Inc. Control government growth and spending? Hahahahahaha We had McConnell just sign onto another giant omnibus because he was afraid that "the far right" in the House would be problematic on voting through that monstrosity without questions. Which leads to number 3.

3. The "establishment" in the party is often more interested in fighting their own "allies" than they are in advancing any kind of agenda. And all of that is secondary to just making sure that the boat doesn't rock too bad. As Twenty pointed out up above, gotta watch the 401k's. So what happens while you aren't rocking the boat? Schools and academia are slowly moving to push the "America Sucks" version of history. The Alphabet Mafia has full control over the culture. Can't say shit about them. If you do you are a domestic terrorist. GOP didn't do shit about the FBI and our intelligence services going after "far right" parents pushing back. The military has gone full pronoun woke. And they are having trouble getting people to join. Trannies aren't lining up to be GI Joe, who knew? Taxes? Most of their voters barely pay them anymore. The economy? They are the say we want closed borders but take Koch money and do the opposite party. Your job? The corporations tell us that it is more efficient to do the work somewhere else. The rest of you can buy cheap ass TVs and drown in Oxy. The market is good, so America is good.

There is more, but at some point they have to take a real stand, really propose solutions, and then actually vote for legislation and advance an agenda to address the issues. They don't. They haven't. And it has been that way for a very long time. They need to do better. And if it takes one wing of the party threatening to burn it down to get their attention, I am here for it. Even if I am not 100% in lock step with all the aims of those complaining. We whine on this forum all the time about the major parties needing an overhaul, this is what that process looks like.

Certainly, you have your right, but you don't think the Bernie Bros feel the same way about the moderate Dems? Hell, I voted for Bernie in '16, donated to him, and was called names by his backers because I didn't sign on to every.word.he.said. He was just better than Clinton, not the Messiah.

I agree parties need to go away. But there is a strange argument that we need to destroy the parties yet we need 100% party discipline. The argument is McCarthy can't be trusted to vote 100% my way. Go back and read what I've said about Manchin, I never took him to task for being a roadblock. Those on the far left, the exact mirror image of the far right, did.

I want people to vote as their constituents want, not according to the Freedom Caucus, Progressive Caucus, the Democratic National Committee, or the Republican Committee.

If the people of a district don't want McCarthy to win, great. I get that. I don't want him to win. My argument is that the parties should both be big tents. Who the heck sits down and decides "this is the official liberal position and all who oppose are heretics" and "this is the official conservative position and all who oppose are heretics"? Whoever has that power has WAY too much power.

I remember a 1984 interview in Iowa of a guy voting in the primary. He was deciding between voting in the D for Cranston, or the R for Reagan. He was very pro-life, so Reagan. But he was very pro-reduce nuclear weapons and thus Cranston. We actually need more people like that, people who don't buy into 1 view and only one view. We need pro-life Democrats, we need Republicans who believe there are things the government can do to help its people. I can't understand why a nation of 330 million people seems to feel they have to sign on to the dotted line of one of only two views of politics.

Here is an example of Progressives opposing Pelosi

Pelosi pitches Dems on permitting as progressives rage

Leaders have yet to decide whether accelerating environmental reviews will be part of the fiscal 2023 defense package, which they hope to vote on this week.

www.eenews.net

And another:

Pelosi Clashes With Progressive 'Squad' As Internal Party Tensions Get Personal

House Speaker Pelosi, D-Calif., is asking members to avoid attacking one another after an aide to Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y, tweeted a message comparing some moderates to segregationists.

www.npr.org

And another

Progressives dig in as Pelosi tries to save key vote

“I think a lot of us want to make sure we have an assurance that, in fact, there’s going to be a reconciliation bill," said Rep. Jim McGovern.

www.politico.com

And there are more. The point is, the far left and far right have visions and demand everyone see the same vision.

 

[UncleMark]

I would have to go back and look around that argument, but I think the sticking point around the amnesty was that it went into effect immediately while the border items were things that would be funded but took more time so could be backed out of the moment the Democrats regained power. That isn't a compromise, it is yanking the football.

However, I don't want the immigration argument to derail my main point, that is the GOP establishment isn't putting forth their own vision on anything so they are forced into fighting on the ground of choosing of those who are. Then they bitch about the ground.

You're making the point. It wasn't "good enough" in your eyes, so it couldn't be allowed to happen. All (or damn near all) or nothing isn't going to get much accomplished. So once again, here we are ten years later...

 

[twenty02]

That is where Boehner was a failure. IIRC, the main issue with all of the immigration reform was that enforcement was always to follow some sort of amnesty. You need to get that hammered out. The public is extremely amenable to tighter border control, you have to make the case to increase public pressure.

At a certain point in a right leaning coalition, you have to be as willing to fight for some of the right leaning principles as you are willing to capitulate to the opposition. Boehner had it harder because he had Obama at the top. We got nothing but tax reform out of the first two years of Trump.

Edit to add: And you still didn't answer the bigger question, what is the establishment GOP's plan for any of this?

Here you go

https://republicans-homeland.house.gov/media/2022/07/Border-Rollout-one-pager_FINAL_formatted.pdf

 

[IUCrazy2]

Certainly, you have your right, but you don't think the Bernie Bros feel the same way about the moderate Dems? Hell, I voted for Bernie in '16, donated to him, and was called names by his backers because I didn't sign on to every.word.he.said. He was just better than Clinton, not the Messiah.

I agree parties need to go away. But there is a strange argument that we need to destroy the parties yet we need 100% party discipline. The argument is McCarthy can't be trusted to vote 100% my way. Go back and read what I've said about Manchin, I never took him to task for being a roadblock. Those on the far left, the exact mirror image of the far right, did.

I want people to vote as their constituents want, not according to the Freedom Caucus, Progressive Caucus, the Democratic National Committee, or the Republican Committee.

If the people of a district don't want McCarthy to win, great. I get that. I don't want him to win. My argument is that the parties should both be big tents. Who the heck sits down and decides "this is the official liberal position and all who oppose are heretics" and "this is the official conservative position and all who oppose are heretics"? Whoever has that power has WAY too much power.

I remember a 1984 interview in Iowa of a guy voting in the primary. He was deciding between voting in the D for Cranston, or the R for Reagan. He was very pro-life, so Reagan. But he was very pro-reduce nuclear weapons and thus Cranston. We actually need more people like that, people who don't buy into 1 view and only one view. We need pro-life Democrats, we need Republicans who believe there are things the government can do to help its people. I can't understand why a nation of 330 million people seems to feel they have to sign on to the dotted line of one of only two views of politics.

Here is an example of Progressives opposing Pelosi

Pelosi pitches Dems on permitting as progressives rage

Leaders have yet to decide whether accelerating environmental reviews will be part of the fiscal 2023 defense package, which they hope to vote on this week.

www.eenews.net

And another:

Pelosi Clashes With Progressive 'Squad' As Internal Party Tensions Get Personal

House Speaker Pelosi, D-Calif., is asking members to avoid attacking one another after an aide to Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y, tweeted a message comparing some moderates to segregationists.

www.npr.org

And another

Progressives dig in as Pelosi tries to save key vote

“I think a lot of us want to make sure we have an assurance that, in fact, there’s going to be a reconciliation bill," said Rep. Jim McGovern.

www.politico.com

And there are more. The point is, the far left and far right have visions and demand everyone see the same vision.

Marvin, where have I demanded everyone see my vision? I want my vision acknowledged. I want some general movement on my vision sometimes. If never, why the hell would I support you?

Biggest of all though, if you don't like my vision it is incumbent upon you to offer the alternative. I will ask again in this thread, can any of you articulate what the vision of the McCarthy wing of the party is other than "We don't like that"? I can't. Newt had a contract with America. Bush had "compassionate conservatism". The neo-cons advanced peace through strength (American Empire). The McCarthy folks are usually the cut taxes guys and they are not even advancing that. "No to MAGA. No to progressives. No to Biden and Schumer." Awesome. So if all of them are wrong, what is right?

McCarthy is a mealy mouthed nothing who is interested in power. He will say and do whatever is expedient in the moment to have whatever power is available to him. He couples that with a vacuum on policies. Literally nothing there. We can't even argue within the party because the establishment side won't stake a position on anything right now other than "We can't have MAGA in power." Fine. Make your case then, where are they wrong? Why are they wrong? And what is your idea instead?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Here you go

https://republicans-homeland.house.gov/media/2022/07/Border-Rollout-one-pager_FINAL_formatted.pdf

I don't mind increased enforcement, I still think walls are ineffective though. But the part that bothers me is the claims on fentanyl. It is a problem, but a very small percentage is brought in by illegal aliens. Most coming in is by truck or car through ports of entry. And to top it off, carried by US citizens.

https://www.cato.org/blog/fentanyl-smuggled-us-citizens-us-citizens-not-asylum-seekers#:~:text=An%20NPR%E2%80%90%E2%80%8BIpsos%20poll,U.S.%20citizens%20almost%20entirely%20for

There are other links, anyone can look it up. We are failing to control the drugs at legal points of entry and that is an entirely different set of policies we need.

 

[outside shooter]

McCarthy is a mealy mouthed nothing who is interested in power. He will say and do whatever is expedient in the moment to have whatever power is available to him. He couples that with a vacuum on policies. Literally nothing there.

How is that different from ANY alternative to McCarthy? Since 2008 or so, the driving GOP mantra has been "not Obama, not Hillary, not Biden", with no coherent plan

 

[IUCrazy2]

Here you go

https://republicans-homeland.house.gov/media/2022/07/Border-Rollout-one-pager_FINAL_formatted.pdf

So the MAGA position.