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Kavanaugh

I have no idea what they actually did way back then, but the idea floated by some of those guys today that they were just memorializing "innocent dates" with a particular girl is laughable. They were clearly implying they all boned her. I think - without speaking for her, just deduction here - that is what Zeke is taking issue with. And rightfully so, although I'm sure this sort of thing has appeared in tens of thousands of yearbooks over the years.

But it can be a serious thing: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...k-renate-alumnius_us_5baa8e31e4b0f143d10e2639


I'm guessing she gave BJs to all her dates.....that would still fit with his "virgin" claim....and also fit with what is kind of norm behavior at that age. Was very common practice amongst girls at my HS.....but full blown intercourse was saved for real boyfriends.
 
I'm guessing she gave BJs to all her dates.....that would still fit with his "virgin" claim....and also fit with what is kind of norm behavior at that age. Was very common practice amongst girls at my HS.....but full blown intercourse was saved for real boyfriends.
I'm not even going to guess that. I'm just saying, the references in the yearbook are clearly not "innocent."
 
So now you are just fabricating your own stories? The actual one not juicy enough?
I don't know what you think I'm making up, but getting the girl drunk was clearly part of the routine, according to the New Yorker story, and the way they did it was called a drinking gamme in which people would choose who drank next and of course they would repeatedly choose the target girl to get her "blind drunk." As for the again and again part, of course that's my hypothesis, explaining one possible way young guys could easily come up with such a routine. I don't imply anything otherwise. I'm not saying this is what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the yearbook stuff is made up. Renate says nothing ever happened to her and assuming she's telling the truth, I could see how the guys made up that poem just for fun and bugged her just to be assholes without any sexual interaction. Everything's possible.

Anyway, here's the pertinent quotes where I got the info about the drinking games they supposedly played.

Ramirez said that, when both she and Kavanaugh were freshmen at Yale, she was invited by a friend on the women’s soccer team to a dorm-room party. She recalled that the party took place in a suite at Lawrance Hall, in the part of Yale known as Old Campus, and that a small group of students decided to play a drinking game together. “We were sitting in a circle,” she said. “People would pick who drank.” Ramirez was chosen repeatedly, she said, and quickly became inebriated. At one point, she said, a male student pointed a gag plastic penis in her direction. Later, she said, she was on the floor, foggy and slurring her words, as that male student and another stood nearby. (Ramirez identified the two male onlookers, but, at her request, The New Yorker is not naming them.)​

A third male student then exposed himself to her. “I remember a penis being in front of my face,” she said. “I knew that’s not what I wanted, even in that state of mind.” She recalled remarking, “That’s not a real penis,” and the other students laughing at her confusion and taunting her, one encouraging her to “kiss it.” She said that she pushed the person away, touching it in the process. Ramirez, who was raised a devout Catholic, in Connecticut, said that she was shaken. “I wasn’t going to touch a penis until I was married,” she said. “I was embarrassed and ashamed and humiliated.” She remembers Kavanaugh standing to her right and laughing, pulling up his pants. “Brett was laughing,” she said. “I can still see his face, and his hips coming forward, like when you pull up your pants.” She recalled another male student shouting about the incident. “Somebody yelled down the hall, ‘Brett Kavanaugh just put his penis in Debbie’s face,’ ” she said. “It was his full name. I don’t think it was just ‘Brett.’ And I remember hearing and being mortified that this was out there.”​

After seeing Judge’s denial, Elizabeth Rasor, who met Judge at Catholic University and was in a relationship with him for about three years, said that she felt morally obligated to challenge his account that “ ‘no horseplay’ took place at Georgetown Prep with women.” Rasor stressed that “under normal circumstances, I wouldn’t reveal information that was told in confidence,” but, she said, “I can’t stand by and watch him lie.” In an interview with The New Yorker, she said, “Mark told me a very different story.” Rasor recalled that Judge had told her ashamedly of an incident that involved him and other boys taking turns having sex with a drunk woman. Rasor said that Judge seemed to regard it as fully consensual.​

Another woman who attended high school in the nineteen-eighties in Montgomery County, Maryland, where Georgetown Prep is located, also refuted Judge’s account of the social scene at the time, sending a letter to Ford’s lawyers saying that she had witnessed boys at parties that included Georgetown Prep students engaging in sexual misconduct. In an interview, the woman, who asked to have her name withheld for fear of political retribution, recalled that male students “would get a female student blind drunk” on what they called “jungle juice”—grain alcohol mixed with Hawaiian Punch—then try to take advantage of her. “It was disgusting,” she said. “They treated women like meat.”
Maybe the reason things often smell like shit to you is you've got you head up your ass. Waddaya think?
 
I don't know what you think I'm making up, but getting the girl drunk was clearly part of the routine, according to the New Yorker story, and the way they did it was called a drinking gamme in which people would choose who drank next and of course they would repeatedly choose the target girl to get her "blind drunk." As for the again and again part, of course that's my hypothesis, explaining one possible way young guys could easily come up with such a routine. I don't imply anything otherwise. I'm not saying this is what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the yearbook stuff is made up. Renate says nothing ever happened to her and assuming she's telling the truth, I could see how the guys made up that poem just for fun and bugged her just to be assholes without any sexual interaction. Everything's possible.

Anyway, here's the pertinent quotes where I got the info about the drinking games they supposedly played.

Ramirez said that, when both she and Kavanaugh were freshmen at Yale, she was invited by a friend on the women’s soccer team to a dorm-room party. She recalled that the party took place in a suite at Lawrance Hall, in the part of Yale known as Old Campus, and that a small group of students decided to play a drinking game together. “We were sitting in a circle,” she said. “People would pick who drank.” Ramirez was chosen repeatedly, she said, and quickly became inebriated. At one point, she said, a male student pointed a gag plastic penis in her direction. Later, she said, she was on the floor, foggy and slurring her words, as that male student and another stood nearby. (Ramirez identified the two male onlookers, but, at her request, The New Yorker is not naming them.)​

A third male student then exposed himself to her. “I remember a penis being in front of my face,” she said. “I knew that’s not what I wanted, even in that state of mind.” She recalled remarking, “That’s not a real penis,” and the other students laughing at her confusion and taunting her, one encouraging her to “kiss it.” She said that she pushed the person away, touching it in the process. Ramirez, who was raised a devout Catholic, in Connecticut, said that she was shaken. “I wasn’t going to touch a penis until I was married,” she said. “I was embarrassed and ashamed and humiliated.” She remembers Kavanaugh standing to her right and laughing, pulling up his pants. “Brett was laughing,” she said. “I can still see his face, and his hips coming forward, like when you pull up your pants.” She recalled another male student shouting about the incident. “Somebody yelled down the hall, ‘Brett Kavanaugh just put his penis in Debbie’s face,’ ” she said. “It was his full name. I don’t think it was just ‘Brett.’ And I remember hearing and being mortified that this was out there.”​

After seeing Judge’s denial, Elizabeth Rasor, who met Judge at Catholic University and was in a relationship with him for about three years, said that she felt morally obligated to challenge his account that “ ‘no horseplay’ took place at Georgetown Prep with women.” Rasor stressed that “under normal circumstances, I wouldn’t reveal information that was told in confidence,” but, she said, “I can’t stand by and watch him lie.” In an interview with The New Yorker, she said, “Mark told me a very different story.” Rasor recalled that Judge had told her ashamedly of an incident that involved him and other boys taking turns having sex with a drunk woman. Rasor said that Judge seemed to regard it as fully consensual.​

Another woman who attended high school in the nineteen-eighties in Montgomery County, Maryland, where Georgetown Prep is located, also refuted Judge’s account of the social scene at the time, sending a letter to Ford’s lawyers saying that she had witnessed boys at parties that included Georgetown Prep students engaging in sexual misconduct. In an interview, the woman, who asked to have her name withheld for fear of political retribution, recalled that male students “would get a female student blind drunk” on what they called “jungle juice”—grain alcohol mixed with Hawaiian Punch—then try to take advantage of her. “It was disgusting,” she said. “They treated women like meat.”
Maybe the reason things often smell like shit to you is you've got you head up your ass. Waddaya think?



So you admit you were just making shit up in your original post? Making totally baseless claims you made up in your head?


College kids play drinking games. With girls. Your socially constipated self may never have....but many of us normal people did.
 
So you admit you were just making shit up in your original post? Making totally baseless claims you made up in your head?
Nope, but B- for trying hard. I'm saying that in my post I was offering one example of how I could see teenagers coming up with their drinking game. No claims involved.

Twenty, you're still too serious. You know how serious one can get? Dead. Why are you so rubbed that people are having fun speculating? Why do you come here anyway? TO get rubbed the wrong way? Sorry for ya. Maybe you should just vote straight ticket Republican to get us back. Yeah, that's the spirit! Or maybe you're the one who's jumping the shark after all.

=====================================

Bottom line, folks, what really matters is taking the House back in November. Two years ago, assuming that Hillary would win, everyone thought that Republicans would control COngress at least until 2020. Now it looks like Dems have a chance of winning the House. If they do, Trump will have his tax returns subpoenaed, Mueller will lower the boom, and so on. Hell, the tax return threat alone might be enough to force Trump to resign. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
 
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Nope, but B- for trying hard. I'm saying that in my post I was offering one example of how I could see teenagers coming up with their drinking game. No claims involved.

Twenty, you're still too serious. You know how serious one can get? Dead. Why are you so rubbed that people are having fun speculating? Why do you come here anyway? TO get rubbed the wrong way? Sorry for ya. Maybe you should just vote straight ticket Republican to get us back. Yeah, that's the spirit! Or maybe you're the one who's jumping the shark after all.


You post an awful lot of detail for someone to claim to be just joking around.

I'm the one who thinks the whole circus is out of control, and stated as much from the beginning.

I don't give a shit about BK himself....I'd much preferred someone like Hardiman...someone that didn't grow up in the prep school circuit have been nominated.
 
You post an awful lot of detail for someone to claim to be just joking around.
Sure, I detail my speculations, suspicions, and theories. Big deal. It's fun. My cup of tea. Maybe not yours.

I've also given my predictions. For example, 99% that Kava is placed. (Unless Avenatti really has something.)
 
What are you talking about?
You said this to a poster that was talking about the Renate Alumni thing:

You believe they weren’t having sex? And they chose Renate because she was popular? That’s adorable. I bet you get excited for the Easter Bunny every year too!

Apparently you think they actually all were having sex with Renate even though Renate says that wasn’t the case. Why don’t you believe women?
 
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I was a senior in high school in 1982. I know what I was doing
Were you trying to rape your female classmates? I ask (fully expecting the answer to be no, as it would for me), because many of Kavanaugh's defenders seem to believe that the allegations wouldn't be disqualifying even if true, because all the kids were up to "rough horseplay" back then.
 
You said this to a poster that was talking about the Renate Alumnius thing:



Apparently you think they actually all were having sex with Renate even though Renate says that wasn’t the case. Why don’t you believe women?
Zeke will say and do anything to undermine the Trump administration, even if has to destroy an innocent man. But says nothing about Bill Cosby.
 
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Were you trying to rape your female classmates? I ask (fully expecting the answer to be no, as it would for me), because many of Kavanaugh's defenders seem to believe that the allegations wouldn't be disqualifying even if true, because all the kids were up to "rough horseplay" back then.
No, no attempted rape. That doesn't mean that some girl I went to high school with doesn't come out and accuse me of it, some 35 years later.
BTW, if i had to bet a gazillion dollars, do I think something happened between Kavanaugh and Ford? probably. Do I think it was a legitimate case of attempted rape? no. Just one mans opinion.
 
No, no attempted rape. That doesn't mean that some girl I went to high school with doesn't come out and accuse me of it, some 35 years later.
BTW, if i had to bet a gazillion dollars, do I think something happened between Kavanaugh and Ford? probably. Do I think it was a legitimate case of attempted rape? no. Just one mans opinion.
Jim could you explain why you feel something happened between Cavanaugh and Ford.
 
No, no attempted rape. That doesn't mean that some girl I went to high school with doesn't come out and accuse me of it, some 35 years later.
BTW, if i had to bet a gazillion dollars, do I think something happened between Kavanaugh and Ford? probably. Do I think it was a legitimate case of attempted rape? no. Just one mans opinion.
Is there anything she could say that would change your mind?

Presumably he’s going to deny any encounter whatsoever. If so, he won’t be able to counter any of her specifics.

If I were investigating, I think I’d see all sorts of unresolved questions that might influence some of my conclusions.

E.g., how long did the entire event last? How did it end? Are there any details that can be corroborated that might help her credibility?

At this point, it doesn’t feel to me like we know a whole lot.

If we wind up with testimony that allows for a conclusion that something happened, but that it’s entirely possible they both genuinely perceived/intended it differently, what’s a reasonable outcome?

How can we get there if Kavanaugh says nothing happened?

I tend to think he’s done if folks conclude something happened (as you think) and he’s saying otherwise.
 
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No, no attempted rape. That doesn't mean that some girl I went to high school with doesn't come out and accuse me of it, some 35 years later.
BTW, if i had to bet a gazillion dollars, do I think something happened between Kavanaugh and Ford? probably. Do I think it was a legitimate case of attempted rape? no. Just one mans opinion.
Following on with that hypothetical...something happened then, he lies about it now. Does the second concern you?

xpost w/Thyrsis
 
Did everybody see this ?

About 2:39 today in the OpEd by Patti Davis thread I asked "VanPastorMan" as follows: "What in the world does an honest pastor think evidence is, anyway? Oral statements by two women and an angel? (You do know the story without looking it up, don't you?)"

He's still posting garbage on other threads without answering these two questions. He may not know how to answer.
I thought it was a silly question. Did not know you were truly asking. Oral statements is just another way of saying testimony. Testimony by itself is not evidence. It can't be or you would be in jail already and so would I. If people can just say whatever they want without corroborating evidence then justice is a thing of the past. Just don't get in my way in the chow line or talk to me in the yard.
 
Zeke will say and do anything to undermine the Trump administration, even if has to destroy an innocent man. But says nothing about Bill Cosby.

How in the world does zeke (or anyone on this board) "undermine" the idiot in the WH? Hyperbole much??

We are posters on an internet forum, and some of us are representative of the 3 Million (8 Million if you count the 3rd party vote) more people that voted against Trump (by RECORD numbers, I might add), than for him. He's a MINORITY president, "elected" by a minority of the people who voted and the divergence in those numbers are reflected in the online presence here as well.

But none of us have the means to "undermine" anything. We'll make our voices heard in Nov, and this time the minority won't be able to subvert the EC and keep us from limiting this fool's power...
 
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Jim could you explain why you feel something happened between Cavanaugh and Ford.
I don't know that it did. It is only my guess, and my guess is that the truth probably lies in between. Trust me, I have little confidence that I am right, and am quite aware that in today's politics, these stories may be 100% fabricated.
 
I would set her up with any two of my sons. She is only a nutjob in some minds because she doesn't confine her thoughts to Democratic group think. I think she is great. Now hear I am saying an African American woman is great. I thought I was a racist because I voted for Trump. :)


I don't think she's necessarily a nutjob....I think she's a professional provocateur. She says extreme partisan things on social media daily in hopes of triggering responses and get herself attention.

That you find partisan hack behavior commendable is not surprising, since you act like one yourself on a daily basis.
 
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Is there anything she could say that would change your mind?

Presumably he’s going to deny any encounter whatsoever. If so, he won’t be able to counter any of her specifics.

If I were investigating, I think I’d see all sorts of unresolved questions that might influence some of my conclusions.

E.g., how long did the entire event last? How did it end? Are there any details that can be corroborated that might help her credibility?

At this point, it doesn’t feel to me like we know a whole lot.

If we wind up with testimony that allows for a conclusion that something happened, but that it’s entirely possible they both genuinely perceived/intended it differently, what’s a reasonable outcome?

How can we get there if Kavanaugh says nothing happened?

I tend to think he’s done if folks conclude something happened (as you think) and he’s saying otherwise.
My mind is made up about the vote and I think the minds of all but maybe five Senators are made up. I would vote no but I have been for voting against him even before the allegations and I have mixed feelings on the allegations so they have no influence on how I think they should vote unless BK confesses. If he confessed I would change my vote from no to hell no! ;)

I believe Ford believes this happened to her and it was BK that did it. I haven't been convinced that BK is guilty of it. I think he's possibly telling the truth that it wasn't him and it's possible that he's lying. I don't know. It's still he said she said. My personal experience of being falsely accused of sexual assault could be influencing me but I don't think anyone except Ford can be certain BK tried to rape her in high school 1982 or whatever.

I read the New Yorker article and I think this might help BK. The article and the NYT says they can't find anyone to say that they seen anything like Ramirez said happened. Some people said that Ramirez told them that she wasn't sure it was BK. I think she might have had something like that happen to her but this is much more shaky than Ford. Unfortunately this could firm up the opinion of the right side that this is all a Democrat smear campaign and convince every Pub to vote yes and it's over. It might even provide enough cover for even the red state Democrats to vote to confirm. It would probably be better for us that would like BK not to be confirmed if that article never happened.

Avenatti seems like a slimy used car salesman and if his claim to have another victim fall through than our hopes to stop BK confirmation are probably done. Unless a bombshell like a BK confession happens tomorrow. I wouldn't put many Benjamins on that.

My mind is also made up that politicians still suck!
 
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Kavanaugh released his calendar and they went to "Timmy's for skis" on July 1st, 1982. Folks are speculating that may have been the date of the party since the other people Ford named like PJ& Judge are all there.
 
Following on with that hypothetical...something happened then, he lies about it now. Does the second concern you?

xpost w/Thyrsis
There is a lot of gray in there. Not trying to dodge, but there are a lot of things that can be mis-interpreted, mis-understood by two people.
Following on with that hypothetical...something happened then, he lies about it now. Does the second concern you?

It really depends. We are all trying to define a level of subjectivity that is impossible to do. You say he is lying, someone else says he is not. How do you reconcile all of that. This isn't a math equation that has a black and white answer.
 
That reference to Beach Week is interesting from this accuser.

Brett C's calendar has a LARGE print of "Beech Week" in June of 82.

This accuser may be more of a problem to BC as she seems to have way more detail, witnessed him over a longer time period and claims to have contemporary witnesses.
 
People ridicule Avennati but he also succeeded in putting Trump and Cohen on the defensive in the Stormy case.

~~~~

Interesting that The Hill and the WSJ are reporting this but not CNN, WAPO, and NYT yet...

~~~~

Cynical Mitch McConnell will probably hold a losing vote next week anyway, forcing red-state Dems senators to vote against Kavanaugh, because all McConnell cares about is holding his position as majority leader.
 
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People ridicule Avennati but he also succeeded in putting Trump and Cohen on the defensive in the Stormy case.
That used car salesman might have just killed BK's confirmation. If that's a real sworn statement from a real person who has the witnesses she says she has BK is toast. I read what is available to read and it is a killer. I don't know how it could be debunked. If it's true BK and his friends should have been thrown in jail in the 80's.
 
First you had an alarming allegation of attempted sexual assault. But that was going to be a he said, she said thing, and there wasn't "follow through", so maybe she just misinterpreted and who's to say and probably truth is in the middle someplace and this was a LONG time ago and this smacks of politics so let's not lose our heads. Then the allegation from a second woman, but if you squint just right, that was maybe mostly tacky and it was college bawdiness and it's really not the same as what the first woman alleges and this too was a really long time ago. Then it was the yearbook stuff which sorta showed that he was an aggressive partier and frat boy full of big talk that doesn't look good in the light, but maybe that was all talk and that was a long time ago. And sure we know that one of his close friends from back then was big trouble and up to no good back then, but that is that guy, not Kavanaugh, so it's really not fair to make Kavanaugh guilty of his friend's actions. But now you've got the big allegation that, if true, would tie all those things into a cohesive broader story that really aligns the worst behavior as predatory and recurring and more than just college hijinx or talk.

To counter that, and in the limited scope of interviews and third hand statements, Kavanaugh basically has said he was just a devout Christian tending to his studies all that time.

Unless this blows up in a very unlikely way that suggests it's all fabricated, this has to be devastating for Kavanaugh, right? We definitely need to hear from him and from Ford, but his responses to date will likely prove fatal to his rise to the Supreme Court, no? Maybe not, but doesn't that seem like the most likely path based on what we know from the outside? Isn't that the most likely interpretation of the limited info that's known publicly? Absolutely there's a possibility that this is one of those cases where the truth is very different than what we can see from afar, but isn't that something like an exception to what usually comes out?

Meanwhile, as this information has slowly flowed out over the past so many weeks, the Republicans who've weighed in have said they believe Kavanaugh, that Ford was "mixed up", that they know Kavanaugh and the allegations aren't consistent with the real Kavanaugh, and this was college and high school stuff so slow your roll, etc. In other words, they didn't believe the first woman, they downplayed the second, they fabricated other potential culprits. But over the course of time, the story looks worse and worse for them. Because their first instinct is always to doubt, question and dismiss the woman. Only when the evidence is overwhelming do they acknowledge even its potential.

We'll see, but once again, it appears that stodgy response mechanism will play well to some part of the base, but confirms for a growing part of the electorate that the stodgy guys are out of touch and part of the problem.
 
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